Small Arms Thread

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 28 Dec 2012 23:45

DRDO multi-calibre guns undergoing trials: Vijay Kumar Saraswat

CHENNAI: DRDO is developing 'multi-calibre guns' which can load and fire both small and large bullets to meet the requirements of Army, a top official said today.

".. the Army is to now go for a different variety of guns and ammunition. So, they are planning to go for, what is called, multi-barrel guns... and that we are doing already," DRDO chief Vijay Kumar Saraswat told reporters here.

The guns were being developed by DRDO's lab at Aerial Delivery Research & Development Establishment Armament in Pune and they were "undergoing trials," he said after inaugurating 'DRDO Research and Innovation Centre,' its collaboration with Indian Institute of Technology-Madras (IIT-M).

He said the proposed Defence Technology Commission (DTC) was under the government's consideration. "Lot of discussions have taken place in the constitution, empowerment and as well as the functions of this commission. And it is awaiting the approval from the government. So, as soon as the approval comes, we will institute it," he said.

DTC's basic role will be to increase the self- reliance index (SRI) in defence technology in the country and to create a synergy between production, R&D and delivery of the systems to the user in a timely and cost effective manner, Saraswat, the Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, said.

To a query on the marketing arm of DRDO, he said, "We have already constituted its functionalities and the charter. It will have some parity with the Antrix. But it will have some differences also, because we have a very large user in terms of the armed forces, whereas Antrix has users who are civilians. So, there will be some differences."

He said that some of DRDO's commercial items were facing competition from the marketing efforts of multi national companies in the field.

"..the companies which got the technology from DRDO do not have the same amount of resources for marketing. So, now that is one big handicap for the product," he said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Dec 2012 01:05

Is this the one?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 01:08

No it is MSMC it's meant for CQB role.

Added Later :- Actually there is a photo of multical rifle under development in the poster behind the displayed gun.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 01:24

Here is a video of the multical weapon

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 29 Dec 2012 07:28

^^They should not let OFB lay its filthy hands on it. It should be produced by a competent private company. This is the only way these govt employed vermin will get over their trade unionism and start working. If not, OFB must be shut down.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Dec 2012 14:04

Army has complete obsession with imports. Current wish list is:-

Pistols
9mm Carbines
5.56x45mm Carbines
5.56mm rifles
7.62mm rifles
Sniper rifles
LMGs
HMGs
RPGs
120mm Mortars
Anti Material Rifles
ATGMs

Anything left??

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Dec 2012 14:11

A Sharma wrote:DRDO multi-calibre guns undergoing trials: Vijay Kumar Saraswat

CHENNAI: DRDO is developing 'multi-calibre guns' which can load and fire both small and large bullets to meet the requirements of Army, a top official said today.

".. the Army is to now go for a different variety of guns and ammunition. So, they are planning to go for, what is called, multi-barrel guns... and that we are doing already," DRDO chief Vijay Kumar Saraswat told reporters here.

The guns were being developed by DRDO's lab at Aerial Delivery <-DDM Research & Development Establishment Armament in Pune and they were "undergoing trials," he said after inaugurating 'DRDO Research and Innovation Centre,' its collaboration with Indian Institute of Technology-Madras (IIT-M).

He said the proposed Defence Technology Commission (DTC) was under the government's consideration. "Lot of discussions have taken place in the constitution, empowerment and as well as the functions of this commission. And it is awaiting the approval from the government. So, as soon as the approval comes, we will institute it," he said.

DTC's basic role will be to increase the self- reliance index (SRI) in defence technology in the country and to create a synergy between production, R&D and delivery of the systems to the user in a timely and cost effective manner, Saraswat, the Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, said.

To a query on the marketing arm of DRDO, he said, "We have already constituted its functionalities and the charter. It will have some parity with the Antrix. But it will have some differences also, because we have a very large user in terms of the armed forces, whereas Antrix has users who are civilians. So, there will be some differences."

He said that some of DRDO's commercial items were facing competition from the marketing efforts of multi national companies in the field.

"..the companies which got the technology from DRDO do not have the same amount of resources for marketing. So, now that is one big handicap for the product," he said.

I had pointed out some months back that DRDO has been seeking permission to develop follow on of INSAS since 2000 but has been prevented from doing so. The Go ahead came only in 2010 and prototypes were ready within one year. The firing was to begin in Sept-Oct 2012 but I don't know the current status. No picture has been released. DRDO personnel described the Guns as Semi-bull pub what ever it means.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 29 Dec 2012 14:26

vic wrote: No picture has been released. DRDO personnel described the Guns as Semi-bull pub what ever it means.

I think they meant to say semi-auto bullpup rifle perhaps?

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jan 2013 20:48

The whole systematic attempt to dismantle indigenous small arms set up by the army could not have been done unless it has blessing of top leadership. We have interesting times ahead. We are regressing to pre-independence stage of our defense R&D and manufacture.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 12 Jan 2013 20:11

I simply must get me one of these. Costs about $20 grand:

http://tinyurl.com/bxxsj3m

click on the nbcnews.com link

I'm starting my spare change jar right now. grin

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 20:49

^sure.. as long as you are confined to your private space.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 05 Feb 2013 22:15

Read understand how to beat the system and make money.
If onnly our OFPs had half the commercial sense and quality product sense we would be exporting to all of Africa and make tonnes of money while civil wars ethnic wars rage , just like PRC is making money.

Also understand the dynamics of NRA/Gun lobby

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/24/145640473 ... -of-choice

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 22:32

If they had half the sense that you suggest we wouldnt have those ammo shortages at every war situation.

Arms sales are part of diplonmacy to further the nation's interests. India doesn't see that route and hence the lack of emphasis on those aspects.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2013 23:00

X-post...

VinodTK wrote:Army renews hunt for bunker-bursting rifles 8 years after bribery scandal

NEW DELHI: The Army is launching a fresh hunt for anti-material rifles, meant for "bunker-bursting" as well as "penetrating" light-armoured vehicles, eight years after its earlier project with South African company Denel got derailed mid-way due to kickback allegations and political mudslinging.

The Army is now ready with the technical parameters, or GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements), for the fresh global tender for the anti-material rifles. The force wants the rifle — weighing not over 15 kg to ensure two soldiers can carry it -- with an effective range of over 1,000-metre to take on enemy bunkers and other field fortifications, "soft-skinned" armoured vehicles and low-flying helicopters, say sources.

The new anti-material rifle project will be a major one, with the first lot being imported directly and the rest indigenously manufactured after transfer of technology (ToT). The Army, apart from its other arms, wants each of its 355 infantry battalions to have at least four such specialized rifles that can fire special calibre high-explosive incendiary/armour-piercing ammunition.

{So its 355*4 plus spares and extras for other services}

The long-delayed quest for these rifles is just one of the several military modernization projects that have gone for a toss due to corruption scams and consequent blacklisting of armament majors. "The guilty should be hung...the entire procurement system needs to be overhauled to ensure national security requirements are not hit time and again," said a senior officer.

For instance, Army's failure to induct even a single advanced 155mm artillery gun since the Bofors scandal of the mid-1980s. "Blacklisting has proven counter-productive. Most major artillery manufacturers, like Denel, Rheinmetall, Singapore Technologies and Soltam, are blacklisted by India...It's only now the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and private players like the Tatas are developing 155mm howitzers," said a MoD official.

The anti-material rifles' story is similar. The UPA-I government in April 2005 had put on hold all dealings with Denel after it came to light that 12.75% commission was allegedly paid to a firm, Varas Associates, to swing the five contracts signed between July 1999 and March 2005.

{Did anyone from Varas Associates go to jail? Otherwise its way to penalize the IA for the corruption of the govt officials involved!}

The contracts were for 700 anti-material rifles and 398,000 rounds of ammunition, followed by ToT to OFB along with "knocked down kits" for another 300 rifles. The Army had inducted just around 300 rifles when the CBI registered the case in June 2005.

At that time, the Congress was using the case — along with the emergency purchases for the 1999 Kargil conflict and the Tehelka tapes — to go after George Fernandes, who was the defence minister in the NDA regime when the initial rifle contracts were inked. The CBI, however, is yet to make any major headway in the case.

Now, Army wants to induct light-weight anti-material rifles that are "man-portable" with a two-jawan crew. "The Denel rifles, while they have performed well, are quite heavy at 28-29 kg apiece. There are also major problems in importing its specialized bullets and ammunition," said an officer.

Based on above specs can we shortlist the potential candidates?
Later we can estimate the probability of the procurement completion?
Essentially a 15 kg AMR is being sought. ie half the weight of existing Denel/OFB AMR.

Either unobtanium or is geared for some vendor.

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Feb 2013 03:26

No indegenious gun/arty projects will taste success however good their design be if the manufacturing scks; If OFB gets a license to produce HK G-36 they will screw it up so bad that IA will never buy a HK gun again.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Feb 2013 17:48

If bofors can be reverse engineered in one year, why can't we make lighter modified version of vidhwansak or NSV? Perhaps 15% of Rs. 2000 crore is too much mullah for the family. Am I to believe that we could not make anti material gun in last 15 years?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Mar 2013 04:28

Given the small numbers involved, its ok if these guns arent designed indigenously. The requirement is known for at least 1 or 2 years now.

I'd be much more disappointed if the army goes for a foreign carbine or assault rifle, killing INSAS and MSMC. The volumes involved there are huge

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Mar 2013 09:53

The cooked trials for the benefit of SIG SAUER in USA courtsey Abhishek Verma gives good info on why army wants only and only imported small arms and all new small arms by DRDO-OFB stand rejected like Vidhwansak, Excaliber, Kalanatak, INSAS carbine, MINSAS, Milap, MSMG etc

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Mar 2013 19:26

^^^^
Link?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Mar 2013 20:49

New evidence links Abhishek Verma to Sig Sauer's deals

Fresh evidence has been received against controversial arms agent Abhishek Verma suggesting that he bribed top military, police and Home Ministry officials as well as obtained secret documents to fix deals for leading US small arms manufacturer Sig Sauer.

The arms manufacturer allegedly employed him and his wife Anca Neacsu to procure deals for the Army, National Security Guard (NSG), Ministry of Home Affairs as well as state police departments.

While investigative agencies are still going through the evidence — received in the form of documents, e-mails and files last week by the Defence and Home Ministry, besides investigative agencies — sources said several files point to violation of the Official Secrets Act (OSA), Indian anti-corruption laws as well as the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA).

Sig Sauer did not respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by The Indian Express. The documents name several top officials, including of joint secretary level in the Home Ministry.

The new evidence also suggests that Neacsu shot secret videos from a hidden camera during visits to Home Ministry departments in the Capital and meetings with senior officials handling procurement of small arms as "proof" of their high connections.

Verma and Neacsu are already in jail facing charges under the OSA and of forgery. The new batch of information will add to the ongoing CBI probe into their dealings in allegedly receiving and paying commissions to swing arms deals.

The new allegations specifically are:

* The Sig group conspired with Verma and his associates to sell arms to India in violation of the FCPA and Indian laws. A JV called Sig Sauer Asia LLC was created with the sole purpose of paying 10 per cent commission on all arms deals made with the Defence and Home ministries in India.

* Home Ministry procurement officials, senior police officers and bureaucrats received favours to swing deals, in the guise of foreign tours, dinners and site visits.

* Illegal videography and photography was carried out by Neacsu and her associates in sensitive locations as "proof" of their high connections. This included the Home Ministry.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 26 Mar 2013 09:37

Sagar G wrote:New evidence links Abhishek Verma to Sig Sauer's deals

Fresh evidence has been received against controversial arms agent Abhishek Verma suggesting that he bribed top military, police and Home Ministry officials as well as obtained secret documents to fix deals for leading US small arms manufacturer Sig Sauer.

Thank you for the link sir.
<Nitpick>Sig Sauer was originally not an US manufacturer. They are German and the parent company that owns them is Swiss. They originally established a branch in the US to legally import their pistols into the US. Later, they also established a manufacturing plant in the US so that they could meet the US military purchasing rules that firearms used by the military must be manufactured in the US, with American labor. The parent company is still Swiss. Beretta, Glock, FN etc. also do the same thing and have US subsidiaries for the same reason.</Nitpick>

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Mar 2013 14:17

ArmenT wrote: They originally established a branch in the US to legally import their pistols into the US. Later, they also established a manufacturing plant in the US so that they could meet the US military purchasing rules that firearms used by the military must be manufactured in the US, with American labor.

That's a nice rule. India should think of implementing it in Military purchases instead of offsets. This can not be questioned as well.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Mar 2013 14:32

chaanakya wrote:
ArmenT wrote: They originally established a branch in the US to legally import their pistols into the US. Later, they also established a manufacturing plant in the US so that they could meet the US military purchasing rules that firearms used by the military must be manufactured in the US, with American labor.
That's a nice rule. India should think of implementing it in Military purchases instead of offsets. This can not be questioned as well.

What?

And let go of the gravy train and protection racket enjoyed by DPSU? How will the MOD babus earn their spurs and justify their existence, hain ji? And then, there is a small matter of fat dividends being doled out every year by these DPSUs to MOD? What happens to that??? Very unpatriotic of you, I tell you....

vic · Post by **vic** » 26 Mar 2013 20:40

We should implement the rule that all labels on imported arms will be stuck in India and penal interest will be charged on delayed supply of blondes, bribes, bottles of liquor BBB which is indigenisation of WWW.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 31 Mar 2013 17:34

ARDE develops modern sub-machine carbine for Army

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Apr 2013 08:35

what type are these?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Apr 2013 08:38

^^Those are paintball guns.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Apr 2013 08:43

doh! i didn't pay attention to the hoppers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2013 08:45

SaiK wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0dDMjnoYyZU/U ... oard04.jpg
what type are these?

Weird. These look like gas operated guns of some type. Each weapon has a gas cylinder with a metal pipe leading to it. Don't know what the curved crescent receptacle is though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2013 08:46

nachiket wrote:^^Those are paintball guns.

Ah. Never seen one in my life..

Is that curved box a loader?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2013 08:48

This one?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Apr 2013 08:58

Looks like a different model, with a foregrip attached.
More like this one:

http://empirepaintball.com/sites/defaul ... _Gun_0.jpg

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 13 Apr 2013 10:01

The curved box is a hopper that contains the supply of paintballs. You open the back and pour your paintballs into the hopper. The paintballs themselves are gravity fed, so you can't really shoot with the gun angled sharply downwards or upwards (especially if you're low on paintballs in the hopper). The tank in the back is filled with CO2 and there is a regulator that regulates how much CO2 is released per trigger pull, so that the velocity of the paintballs are kept below a certain max. velocity (most paintball places here in CA will make you shoot your gun against a chronograph to make sure you aren't shooting high velocity, before they let you enter the paintball arena).

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 25 Apr 2013 08:42

Looks like the para standing behind General Parnaik is holding an M-4 carbine. haven't seen too many pictures of those in service.

Image source: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/04/c ... order.html

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Apr 2013 11:25

Mihir are you sure its an M-4 and not an Insas variant.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 25 Apr 2013 17:04

Thats an M-4, also M-4 is not rare been used for quite a while and now with a massive order last year a lot of our men in the Para SF and Airbone units will also use it.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 25 Apr 2013 17:56

Yes, it looks like the delivery of those rifles has started. Aditya, 400% sure.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Apr 2013 19:58

What about the ammunition do we import them as well? since the ammunition used in the INSAS is slightly different from NATO standard.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Apr 2013 22:01

Aditya_V wrote:Mihir are you sure its an M-4 and not an Insas variant.

Others have already answered this, but for what it is worth, here are my 2 cents.

You can see the larger picture by clicking on Mihir's link to Ajai Shukla's page and clicking on the image itself, which brings up a larger image and makes some details clearer.

1. Shape of the butt stock. INSAS rifle stocks have a different shape (even the folding variant)
2. Front sight is a triangular piece at the end of the hand guard (you can see it just above the stick of the officer in the front of the picture). INSAS front sight is a post type and is a few inches in front of the hand guards. Also INSAS iron sights are much smaller because the INSAS is not a straight line layout, whereas the M16 family has straight line layout as part of its design and therefore has to have taller sights.
3. In an INSAS, the gas tube on top of the barrel is visible in front of the hand guards. This one doesn't have the gas tube visible.

So you can be sure from the above 3 points that it is not an INSAS. As to what it is, the triangular shaped front sight piece is something that is distinctive to the M16 family. Add to this the fact that it has no carrying handle, but has a sophisticated reflex sight attached to where the carrying handle should be, this points to the M4 model (the M16 A1, A2 and A3 variants have non-detachable carrying handles, the M16A4 has a detachable handle mounted on a picatinny rail, but it is longer than the M4 and stock shape is different too)

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 25 Apr 2013 22:08

looks like compressed gas rifle like in the movie
"No countr for old Men"