Small Arms Thread

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shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

Thanks.

the above news is dated July 7th 2015 and says: (as you have quoted)
“A RFI will soon be issued for a single caliber guns as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative. The RFI will be open to all,” PTI quoted an unnamed defense source as saying Tuesday.
the news link below is dated July 5th 2015 (two days earlier) and it says:
Exclusive: Made in India rifles to replace INSAS
"We are going in for a designed and Made in India rifle in keeping with the government's indigenisation thrusts," senior Army sources told Mail Today.
How do we as readers decide which is true and which is not?
Kakkaji
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Hakeem Saheb:

We won't know for sure which story is true, until there is an official announcement.

All these journalists quote unnamed 'sources'.

May be it is time to get the scoop from special chaiwallas? :wink:
SaiK
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by SaiK »

http://www.janes.com/article/53440/thal ... an-service

can we compare any of IA's current assault rifles with F90?
shiv
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

One month old video dated July 5 2015 re excalibur

Sandeep Unnithan reporting in the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxXTmj2ftg
sumsumne
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by sumsumne »

Delhi Police conducts mock drill ahead of Independence Day

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/sli ... 339860.cms

Can someone id' the weapon?
Viv S
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

MP-5s, AKM and the (US-Israeli) CornerShot.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Milap, MCIWS (unknown prototype), Ghatak and Excalibur.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/thre ... st-1059354
Excalibur and new pump action shotgun by OFB.
https://m.ak.fbcdn.net/sphotos-g.ak/hph ... 069b422908
More from DFI

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Early ARDE MCIWS


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Most Recent Design


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Internal Mechanism Of ARDE'S MCIWS


Image
ARDE-DRDO MCIWS Internal Mechanism


It seems that MCIWS does not have a buffer tube like AR-15/M-16, as earlier prototype shows, and might come with a folding stock option.
More on the above, it seems like MCIWS has got rid of the 45 degree AK style gas port.
From June 2015:-
Image
MoS for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh examining the gun,
Viv S
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

Thakur_B wrote:More on the above, it seems like MCIWS has got rid of the 45 degree AK style gas port.
From June 2015:-
Image
MoS for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh examining the gun,
Lovely image. Hopefully signifying an uptick in ARDE's fortunes. Do you have one in a higher resolution?
SaiK
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by SaiK »

^he is holding it like a pro... look at his right index position
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Viv S wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:More on the above, it seems like MCIWS has got rid of the 45 degree AK style gas port.
From June 2015:-
Image
MoS for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh examining the gun,
Lovely image. Hopefully signifying an uptick in ARDE's fortunes. Do you have one in a higher resolution?
Not of that particular pic. From somebodies facebook pics that were posted on DFI that I linked to earlier. The timestamp say July 2015. MCIWS, Milap/MSMC/JVPC, Ghatak and Excailbur. The barrel doesn't seem to be an INSAS hand-me-down any longer and seems to be thicker, smoother and might I say, longer.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
sum
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by sum »

X-post:
sum wrote:Was this posted?
Multi-Calibre Assault Rifle: Made in India vs Make in India
Amidst media reports of the Indian Army scraping the search for a multi-calibre assault rifle from foreign vendors, a team from the Indian Defence Review (IDR) visited the Armament Research Development Establishment (ARDE) at Pune recently. It was an exercise undertaken to understand the efforts made by Indian scientists in developing an indigenous assault rifle; a call unheard thus far. The Indian Army is conducting field trials on various assault rifles of foreign make at Northern Command. ..
On the other side, braving all criticism of an inefficient INSAS rifle to its credit, unbelievably though, the ARDE has simultaneously developed a Multi-Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) as a technology demonstrator. The Indian Army, however, did not support this project and went ahead hunting in foreign lands for a dream assault rifle, thus ignoring the indigenous effort outright.
“Between the time when we get a request and the time the product is ready after initial testing, the requirements change,” informs a helpless scientist. “If the Army and the DRDO work together, and we are updated about the change in requirements, the product can be simultaneously upgraded,” this senior scientist adds. Quoting an example he mentioned that India is now almost self-sufficient in radars because the Navy and the DRDO worked very closely on it.
Going by newspaper reports, the top-of-the-line assault rifles such as Beretta’s ARX-160 (Italy), Colt Combat Rifle (the US), CA 805 BREN (the Czech Republic) and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE1 model failed to make a mark owing to the unrealistic General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). However, these trials are still being conducted and no final outcome has emerged so far, a highly placed source at Army Headquarters informed IDR. The source negated earlier media reports that the army ..

Though the chances are high for abandoning this foreign dream, not for any other reasons hinting at a doctrinal shift but to save itself of the embarrassment caused due to the unrealistic expectations from its GSQRs, he added

Sad read and the comments for the article have some IA and ex-IA guys who say:
I agree we should pick up from Israel or the world market definitely not from ARDE. Even our MBT Arjun is a failure when you compare the price at which it was made. We could have equipped 2 Armd Divs extra at the same cost. DRDO except Missile Project should be disbanded. It is a waste of Defense funds which are used as party funds for the Govt in power.
srai
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by srai »

^^^

Article worth reading!
Multi-Calibre Assault Rifle: Made in India vs Make in India
By Danvir Singh
Issue Vol. 30.3 Jul-Sep 2015 | Date : 02 Sep , 2015

Aping the philosophy of the West, the Indian Army wanted a rifle that would incapacitate a solider instead of killing him thus increasing the logistics burden for each soldier injured. However, as the Army started getting involved in Counter Insurgency especially in the North, the requirement for a gun with a higher kill capacity was felt. The infantrymen now prefer the famed AK-47 rifle over the INSAS.

Amidst media reports of the Indian Army scraping the search for a multi-calibre assault rifle from foreign vendors, a team from the Indian Defence Review (IDR) visited the Armament Research Development Establishment (ARDE) at Pune recently. It was an exercise undertaken to understand the efforts made by Indian scientists in developing an indigenous assault rifle; a call unheard thus far. The Indian Army is conducting field trials on various assault rifles of foreign make at Northern Command. The world famous small arms manufacturers have entered the fray.

Going by newspaper reports, the top-of-the-line assault rifles such as Beretta’s ARX-160 (Italy), Colt Combat Rifle (the US), CA 805 BREN (the Czech Republic) and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE1 model failed to make a mark owing to the unrealistic General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). However, these trials are still being conducted and no final outcome has emerged so far, a highly placed source at Army Headquarters informed IDR. The source negated earlier media reports that the army has scrapped its December 2011 tender to procure 66,000 multi-calibre assault rifles on June 15. Though the chances are high for abandoning this foreign dream, not for any other reasons hinting at a doctrinal shift but to save itself of the embarrassment caused due to the unrealistic expectations from its GSQRs, he added.

On the other side, braving all criticism of an inefficient INSAS rifle to its credit, unbelievably though, the ARDE has simultaneously developed a Multi-Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) as a technology demonstrator. The Indian Army, however, did not support this project and went ahead hunting in foreign lands for a dream assault rifle, thus ignoring the indigenous effort outright.

Notwithstanding the fact that the hardy Indian Infantry soldier’s torturous wait for a new-generation assault rifle may now get even longer; the movers and shakers remain unfazed, caught in bureaucratic tangles probably set up by the Army itself. India, under the new vigour for “Make in India” mission, may in all likelihood abandon its four-year-old hunt for new-generation assault rifles with inter-changeable barrels for conventional warfare and counter-insurgency operations. Will the Indian marvel in MCIWS see the light of the day? The trials will be followed keenly by the small arms manufacturers the world over.

The race for acquiring big-ticket weapons like fighters, helicopters, submarines, tanks, howitzers and the likes makes an assault rifle looks too small and may be unimportant as well. Advanced weaponry apart, infantry soldiers continue to be at risk without the basic modern bullet-proof jackets, webbing and lightweight ballistic helmets, terrain specific shoes and state-of-the-art field communication system – the fundamental right of a soldier.

In a country where the caste, creed and corruption form the backbone of our democratic system, the Indian Army cannot be kept isolated. No wonder, the 1.18-million strong Army’s quest for 66,000 new rifles for its 382 Infantry battalions becomes a super lucrative deal (an estimated $3 billion to $4 billion) rendering indigenisation unattractive. It should come as no surprise if probed, that there are forces supported by the politico-bureaucratic-military nexus serving the designs of the arms mafia, who deliberately want this indigenous effort quashed. It may be surprising, but not really though, that our scientists can develop and launch a probe to Mars but fail to produce an assault rifle.

Ongoing Field Trials

According to sources in Army Headquarters, during the ongoing field trials, the double-barrel rifles of foreign make on offer – with a 5.56 x 45 mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62 x 39 mm secondary one for counter-terror operations – have thus far not been found robust enough for the military operations envisaged.

Evolution of an Assault rifle

To understand the importance of an assault rifle it is essential to recall the developmental and operational history of the assault rifle. Getting to the history of automatic rifles; the USSR by the early fifties began to arm her infantry with intermediate-cartridge weapons (automatic and semi-automatic carbines, as well as Light Machine Guns). Full-power rifle cartridges were kept mostly for platoon-level medium machine guns, as well as for sniper rifles.

The NATO and many other countries such as India went the “full-power” road with adoption of the 7.62 x 51 NATO round, developed in USA. Despite all stubborn efforts of the US Army to prove that its choice of new round was the right one, practice of the time proved that it was not the case. Full-automatic fire from newly designed 7.62 mm NATO rifles was ineffective to say the least and many countries like India (7.62 mm SLR) adopted the new rifles as semi-automatics. And in semi-automatic fire, the long-range potential of the 7.62 mm NATO round was basically lost due to limitations of the iron sights and the eye sight of a typical infantry soldier.

In parallel, a lot of research was done to find ways to improve effectiveness of infantry fire. Not surprisingly, this research pointed out what was already known by 1918 – the capabilities of the average soldier in a typical combat situation limit effective rifle fire to 300-400 metres maximum.

This old finding, along with the new concept of the “burst” firing to achieve “shotgun effect”, in order to compensate for slight aiming errors resulted in a decision to decrease the calibre of the assault rifle from typical 7 mm – 8 mm down to about 5 mm – 6 mm or less. This decrease offered several advantages compared to standard calibre reduced power ammunition, including faster bullets with flatter short- to medium-range trajectories, decreased weight of ammunition and guns, and reduced recoil.

Several ambitious but largely unsuccessful programmes centred on sub-calibre flechette rounds, multi-bullet rounds, micro-calibre bullets (4 mm and below) and caseless ammunition. These were conducted in USA, Germany and elsewhere, but practical results were achieved only with conventional ammunition of .22” calibre (5.56 mm), developed in the USA during the late fifties in conjunction with the Armalite AR-15 / Colt M16 rifle.

This brought to life what could be called the third generation of assault rifles. Technically, these third generation weapons were automatic rifles or carbines firing reduced power, reduced calibre ammunition. Inspired by developments in USA, by the late seventies – early eighties this concept caught on both in the West and the East. NATO adopted an improved version of the American 5.56 mm cartridge as a next standard rifle ammunition in 1979 while the Soviet Army adopted its own version of the small-bore reduced power cartridge in the form of the 5.45 x 39 round in 1974 along with AK-74 rifle.

Today, forty or so years later, most armies of the world still use this “third generation” rifle ammunition (reduced power, reduced calibre) for standard infantry rifles and Light Machine Guns.

Today, forty or so years later, most armies of the world still use this “third generation” rifle ammunition…
Basically, rifles designed in 2015 are not much different from rifles designed in 1964 or so, except for some more modern materials and finishes. And that’s because they all fire the same ammunition. Limited success of the so-called bullpup configuration rifles also does not add much to overall combat capabilities of the rifle-armed soldiers, not to mention the fact that bullpup automatic rifles were designed and tested during the development and evolution of 1st and 2nd generations of individual automatic rifles.

Another modern trend is an attempt to bridge the gap between full-power, standard calibre and reduced-power (reduced calibre ammunition with introduction of some “more powerful than intermediate” rounds such as 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 Remington SPC). Indian scientists keeping pace with the latest trends; the ARDE, Pune has developed an indigenous 6.6 x 43 mm calibre round compatible to the best in the world. These rounds are surprisingly close in basic ballistic properties to century-plus old warhorses such as 6.5 x 50 SR Arisaka, except that modern rounds have shorter and lighter cases (due to improvements in propellant chemistry) and bullets with better shape.

Therefore, in terms of overall performance any modern 6.5 mm – 6.8 mm “assault rifle” is not that far from 1916-vintage FedorovAvtomat, which fired 6.5 mm Arisaka ammunition. The most notable differences between modern and century-old guns would be materials, manufacturing techniques and overall reliability, especially in harsh and adverse environment conditions.

The key factor that allows moderns soldiers to be noticeably more effective in terms of hit probability is, in fact, not the rifle or ammunition but sighting equipment. Modern telescopic day and night sights greatly enhance shooter performance at medium and long distances, and red-dot sights bring short-range performance under dynamic conditions to a whole new level, compared to old-style iron sights.

However, in most cases, those sights are not unique to any given weapon, and in theory, anyone with access to a near-century-old weapon such as BAR 1918 or Fedorov 1916 could outfit it with modern sights with some minor adjustments. One interesting recent trend is a slow but noticeable return of the full-power automatic rifles firing 7.62 x 51 NATO ammunition. For some time, these rifles were issued mostly in semi-automatic, designated marksmen versions, with intent to increase reach of small infantry units armed with 5.56 mm weapons in desert or mountainous terrains. However, it appears that one such rifle per platoon is often not sufficient to fight enemies who are using distance, natural cover and modern body armour for protection against small arms fire.

Therefore, several companies worldwide now offer 7.62 mm automatic rifles which are intended for individual, rather than platoon support use. In May 2014, the Turkish army, the largest NATO military force in Europe, announced its adoption of the MKEK MPT-76 rifle, which appears to be a general issue, select-fire weapon based on the German HK 417.

After the first prototypes were built in 2008 as the Mehmetçik-1 in 5.56 x 45 mm NATO, the rifle received negative feedback from Turkish soldiers testing it who reported that they preferred the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round used in their G3 service rifles with far greater knock-down power and range. The proposed Mehmetcik-1 was cancelled after the first prototype and engineers started over again with a battle rifle design instead.

The first batch of 200 MPT-76s was delivered on May 18, 2014, and received positive feedback. The rifle was reported to be extremely accurate, reliable and had impressive knock-down power and outmatched the G3 in all categories. The Turkish Army plans to phase out its G3 throughout 2015 and to make the MPT-76 its main service rifle by the end of 2016. And it seems that the Turkish infantry can put up with decreased ammunition capacity in hopes of getting a more effective and far-reaching weapon. With these weapons, automatic fire is reserved for rare but still probable situations such as ambushes or CQB, and most shooting is to be made in deliberate, aimed semi-automatic fire.

Thus, it would be safe to say that the West is back to square one and the Indians have so wisely cancelled the tender for search of an imported Multi-Calibre Assault Rifle. As we have seen above, in terms of ballistics, those most modern weapons are very close to first-generation weapons dating back to WW I. However, rapid evolution of sighting equipment, with low-power telescope sights and red dot sights, and especially with emerging class of electronic sights with built-in ballistic computers and other digital sighting aids, helps to stretch the envelope of effective small arms fire beyond practical capabilities of intermediate-power ammunition.

The battle winning and game changing ability has not changed when it comes to assault rifles right from the WW II days till recently in Afghanistan. In November 1942, the beleaguered German Army unit was surrounded and outnumbered by Red Army forces on the Russian front. The German Luftwaffe dropped the new and super-secret MKb42 machine carbines and equally new 7.92 x 33 mm Kurz ammunition to this vastly outnumbered German unit. The encircled German troops broke out of the tightening Russian noose to fight another day in great part to the tremendous and sudden increase in firepower provided by the revolutionary new German “assault rifle” and its intermediate rifle cartridge in its first appearance on the battlefield. Close combat would never be the same again.

Then, on July 13, 2008, during the Battle of Wanat in Afghanistan, Combat Outpost Kahler was manned by US troops. In this horrific infantry battle, nine US troops were killed with another twenty seven injured in what arguably was a failure of US small arms to keep up with Russian weapons designed decades earlier. Numerous M4 Carbines, M249 Squad Automatic Weapons and MK19 AGL’s stopped firing as they overheated in the US Army troop’s valiant attempt to repel the superior numbers of determined insurgent fighters armed with AK-47s and RPGs. No specific case study like the Battle of Wanat mentioned above could be quoted to suggest the inadequacies of our own Assault Rifle, the INSAS. However, it is important to mention that, in 1999, the Indian Army fought a three-month-long undeclared war with Pakistan over the dizzy heights of Kargil. It was also the combat debut of India’s new INSAS assault rifle.

During the conflict waged over the control of heights strategically important to India for the defence of Leh — the INSAS rifles suffered with serious stoppages, and their cheap, 20-round plastic magazines cracked in the cold weather and often led to being a reason of choice between the life and death. Designed to shoot in semi-automatic and three-round burst modes, soldiers would pull the trigger and the gun would unexpectedly spray rounds like a fully automatic rifle. Soldiers also preferred the heavier 7.62 mm rounds in the FAL rifle which the INSAS and its 5.56 mm rounds replaced.

In 2005, Maoist rebels attacked a Nepalese army base. The Nepalese troops had INSAS rifles bought from India. During the ten-hour-long battle, the rifles overheated and stopped working. The Maoists overran the base and killed 43 soldiers. When the INSAS rifle was initially designed, the Indian Army wanted rifles with a lower kill capability. The 5.56 mm rifle was designed based on that demand. The INSAS is a family of infantry weapons consisting of an assault rifle, a Light Machine Gun and a carbine – all the same calibre. The first demand for a smaller calibre rifle came in 1982, when the army wanted to replace the 7.62 mm SLR that had been in use for over 30 years.

Aping the philosophy of the West, the Indian Army wanted a rifle that would incapacitate a solider instead of killing him thus increasing the logistics burden for each soldier injured. However, as the Army started getting involved in Counter Insurgency especially in the North, the requirement for a gun with a higher kill capacity was felt. The infantrymen now prefer the famed AK-47 rifle over the INSAS.

However, scientists from the Small Arms Division of the ARDE defended the INSAS claiming that the problems encountered during the Kargil War were manufacturing issues. They also agreed that the rifle is now outdated and upgrades are needed. The problems that came up during the Kargil War were quality related, and for that, the ordnance factory (manufacturing it) is responsible. However, the fact remains that the INSAS technology is now very old and upgradation is an urgent need, these scientists added.

A lot of water has flown under the bridge since the development of INSAS and today, the dedicated team of scientists have mastered the desired technology boasting that it is comparable to the best in the world. The Army has to overcome its phobia in this regard, the earlier, the better. Another DRDO scientist cited the lack of working in close collaboration as the reason for the shortcomings in the technology development and evolution.

“Between the time when we get a request and the time the product is ready after initial testing, the requirements change,” informs a helpless scientist. “If the Army and the DRDO work together, and we are updated about the change in requirements, the product can be simultaneously upgraded,” this senior scientist adds. Quoting an example he mentioned that India is now almost self-sufficient in radars because the Navy and the DRDO worked very closely on it.

Another ARDE official, meanwhile, informed that apart from MCIWS Assault Rifle, other weapons and weapons system are also being worked on including a Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC). The user trials of which were recently conducted involved the German MP-7 and Belgium P-90, our JVPC fared better than the other two. Commenting upon the irrationality overshadowing the logic during trials, he cited the unnecessary non-critical tests responsible for delayed induction. He informed us that as per the GSQR laid down, this carbine was required to pass through 99.7 per cent reliability test. All the weapons (JVPC) tested were proved above 99 per cent reliable. However, six out of the lot were above 99.5 per cent thus largely bracketing them between 99.4 to 99.5 per cent reliable. All necessary changes are being incorporated to pass through the stringency of the tests. He said 50 JVPC will be provided to the Army for fresh trials in January 2016.

The top scientist looking after the development of the Small Arms informed us that the MCIWS Assault Rifle will be ready for trials by December 2015 – January 2016 for trials. Beaming with confidence they boasted of the mastery achieved over the metallurgy that will produce the world’s one of the finest weapons in its class. The body of the MCIWS under development is made up of a single block of very high grade aluminium alloy. The rivet-less body makes the weapon more resilient to combat stress. The modular design makes the weapon unique and extremely soldier friendly. A soldier will be able to field strip MCIWS without any tool by just removing a pin.

The deadly looking weapon likely to become the basic weapon of an Infantryman has a multi calibre option between 5.56 x 45 mm, 6.8 x 43 mm and 7.62 x 39 mm. It is capable of firing different calibre ammunition by changing barrel group, breech block and the magazine while retaining 92 per cent of commonality of parts. This affords the Army a choice between going in for a multi-calibre or a single calibre weapon as the case may be.

It is lightweight and modular in design having multiple picatinny rails for sighting system and foregrip. The already under production, indigenous 40 mm Under Barrel Grenade Launcher fitted with MCIWS makes it a very lethal combination. The air bursting grenade having a range of 500 m could work havoc on the enemy defiladed behind at those ranges.

Having superior finish, it has a fully supported engineering plastic magazine with metallic insert and push type magazine release mechanism thus making it extremely strong and reliable plastic magazine unlike that of the 5.56 mm INSAS.

Other features that make this weapon system comparable to the best in the world are its ambidextrous features – cocking, change lever, magazine release. The MCIWS has a foldable butt with variable lengths, picatinny mounted universal iron sights, advance day and night sighting systems, automatic electronic graticule set for selected calibre and the earlier mentioned air burst capability.

The MCIWS is a highly impressive weapon system. On July 13, 2015, a composite team comprising Director General of Para Military and representatives of various forces under the Additional Home Secretary visited ARDE. This weapon had impressed the visiting team and they are now willing to induct MCIWS for use by the BSF, CRPF, ITBP, CISF and the SSB as soon as possible. The strength of Indian paramilitary forces outnumber that of the Indian Army. This move could boost the sagging morale of the scientists whose tremendous efforts have constantly been overlooked thus far. And also, the MCIWS will give a huge impetus to those fighting the Naxal insurgency and may well prove to be a game changer.

No matter how confident these zealous scientists of ARDE, Pune are over their technological achievement in the form of MCIWS, the litmus test will be the field trials that lay ahead. It is to be seen, whether the Indian Army continues to follow the West blindly or professes a philosophy of its own. After all, our Army is one of the most combat experienced army in the world having been in combat since independence. Ironically, the responsibility of heavy costs incurred both financial and human in selecting the 5.56 mm as the calibre for the Infantry assault rifle is yet to be accounted for.

Prognosis

The ineffectiveness of the INSAS rifle led to super imposition of the 7.62 mm AK-47 thus increasing the financial and logistical burden. Our think-tanks need to debate and evolve a logical reason in confirmation with our environmental realities to go in for dual calibre as professed by the West. Or will a single calibre rifle suffice for our Infantry befitting our operational philosophy, budgetary considerations and logistic strain.

The MCIWS, if selected, will give us the option of three calibres (the Army can opt for single or dual calibre) to choose from. However, the other major advantage will lie in the technical support from the already established research and development institutions and manufacturing industry. A kind of back up no foreign vendor will ever be able to match.
Vipul
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Vipul »

Army prepares for crucial trials as chief insists on indigenous Excalibur.

On Tuesday, in a signal of army chief General Dalbir Singh's determination to arm his soldiers with a 'Made in India' rifle, his infantry chief visited an Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) facility near Kolkata that is fabricating a batch of 200 Excalibur rifles. The army will formally trial-evaluate these later this year.

With Gen Dalbir Singh throwing his weight behind the Excalibur, the army has begun informal trials on the prototype rifles, to eliminate any chance of failing the formal trials when they are held. So rigorous are the army's trials that four of the world's best rifles - Italian company Beretta's ARX-160; the American Colt Combat Rifle; Israel Weapon Industries ACE-1, and the Czech Republic's CA-805 BREN - failed to pass a three-year-long evaluation.

On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.

Kulkarni is also learned to have suggested certain ergonomic changes, which would make the Excalibur more comfortable for jawans to carry and fire.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has confirmed to Business Standard that the army has pulled out all stops to institutionally oversee the project, something that the navy has often done, but is unprecedented for the army. A number of army shooters are stationed at Ishapore where they carry out extensive test firing daily.

If the Excalibur performs well in trials, the OFB will mass-produce it to equip more than half the army's 12 lakh soldiers. With the Excalibur priced at about Rs 60,000 each, 6 lakh rifles would cost about Rs 3,000 crore, half the cost of equipping the army with foreign rifles.

The OFB says the Excalibur would not need a new production line. It will be built on the INSAS production line that is still active, building the older rifle for central armed police forces (CAPFs) and paramilitary forces (PMFs).

However it is prestige, not economics, which has made the army chief throw his weight behind the Excalibur. American infantrymen carry the US-made M-16 rifle as their basic weapon; Russians carry the Russian AK-74M; and China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has indigenously built its new QBZ-95 rifle. Now the Indian Army is gearing up to equip its jawans with the Excalibur.

This will require the Excalibur to overcome the negative legacy of its predecessor, the INSAS (an acronym for Indian Small Arms System). The army has criticised the INSAS rifle, complaining that its components fracture under difficult field conditions, its barrel gets deformed, and its modern, see-through magazine (made of polycarbonate material) frequently develops cracks.

Another complaint arose when the INSAS was used in counter-militancy operations in Kashmir and the northeast. The army complained that the lighter, 5.56 mm INSAS was not killing militants, as the 7.62 mm AK-47 rifle was with its heavier bullet. In fact, the army had itself demanded a 5.56 mm INSAS rifle, in line with a NATO philosophy that wounding an enemy soldier was better than killing him, since that tied down additional soldiers in evacuating the casualty.

Furthermore, the Excalibur incorporates a "direct gas-tapping angle", which reduces its recoil, or the "jump" when it is fired. The rifle has a foldable butt for easy carriage, and a modern "Picatinny rail" on the barrel - a standardized bracket for mounting telescopic sights, night vision sights, laser aiming modules, bipods or bayonets.

Kulkarni followed up his Tuesday visit to Ishapore with a visit on Wednesday to the Armament R&D Establishment (ARDE) in Pune, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratory that has developed the Excalibur, as also the INSAS.

Tushar Tripathi, the OFB's Director, Weapons, says the Excalibur fires in two settings: either single shot or automatic, in which bullets stream out of the rifle for as long as the trigger is pressed and there is ammunition in the magazine. This abandons the INSAS' feature of a "three-round burst", which complicated the design.

The OFB is also providing holographic and laser sights with the Excalibur for firing at night. Bharat Electronics Ltd is currently developing these.

With the rifle tender already scrapped, the army is also scuttling the procurement of a carbine. This tender, floated in 2010, asked for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) carbines, with another 1,20,000 being built by OFB. However, after three years of trials that concluded in 2013, the army controversially ruled that only the Israeli carbine met its requirements, leading to protests from other vendors.

Now OFB has been asked to manufacture 100 carbines, to the design evolved by ARDE, for trials later this year.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by nachiket »

If the Army does indeed decide on the Excalibur, that would be a most welcome development. But where does that leave the MCIWS then? Perhaps the army can procure that for coin ops to replace the AKM variants in use?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by srai »

Image
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MCIWS
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1> Front and rear flip up iron sights. So it seems that IA is now serious about optics on regular issue infantry AR
2> This reflex sight seem to be the same one mounted on the Milap/MSMC. Is this a Meprolight?
3> P-rails finally on 3, 6, 9 & 12 o'clock. Maybe the 12 o'clock rail should have been longer so that a 2/4x magnifier could be attached to the reflex sight?
4> M16 type cocking handle. Ambidextrous, but every time one reloads a mag, the weapon would have to be dismounted from the shoulder to operate it. Also, forward assist is missing. What happens in case of a soft let down of the bolt?
5> Basic cheek rest is ok for standard issue. But in case of larger (higher profile) optics like thermal or one with a laser rangefinder, it would be hard to align sight with eye in the absence of an adjustable cheek rest
6> Telescopic butt stock. How many positions are there? I guess this is not for CQB, else would have been a foldable butt stock (CQB/PDW task delegated to the MSMC?)
7> Only 2 sling points. Maybe a third sling point on the sides would have helped?
8> Bayonet lugs are the same as INSAS 1B1
9> Looks like a good hollow and textured ergonomic pistol grip, with place for a tool kit/cleaning kit inside
10> I would say that it has a gas operated short stroke self regulated action. Doesn't seem to have any gas adjusting mechanism. Definitely a floating barrel design
11> Polymer foregrip, which could be detached by taking out the front take-down pin (12) to reveal the full 6 o'clock P-rail to mount the UBGL
12> Front take-down pin to attach polymer foregrip, UBGL, or to disassemble the upper and lower receivers
13> Closed rotating bolt action. Ejection is not ambidextrous. No forward eject
14> Mag window. More clarity to the soldier to know how many rounds still left in the mounted mag
15> AR-15 style ambidextrous mag release
16> I think they might have placed the bolt release in front of the trigger, inside the trigger cavity, to be operated by the trigger finger, like in the ARX-160. Else, the trigger could be dual action where after cocking, the first short trigger pull releases the bolt
17> Ambidextrous fire selector lever. Standard Safe/Single/Burst modes
18> Rear take-down pin to disassemble the upper and lower receivers
19> Not exactly sure what it is. Most probably just the rivet pin for the hammer. Might also be the bolt release button.
20> Not sure what this polymer piece with 2 allen head screws is for. Maybe just to take off the upper polymer cover.

The receivers are not made out of stamped sheet metal like the AK or INSAS. This looks more like made out of cast lightweight alloy. So, it would be much more expensive than the INSAS and would not be produced as quickly as the INSAS. It would be lighter than the INSAS, but not as light as a gun with a full polymer body like the ARX-160. The metal crafting seems to be immaculate and impressive.

Source: indiandefence.com
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Looks like they have kept the plastic magazine in Excaliber, despite reported problems of cracking in INSAS :-?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

Kakkaji wrote:Looks like they have kept the plastic magazine in Excaliber, despite reported problems of cracking in INSAS :-?
From the article posted above
, it has a fully supported engineering plastic magazine with metallic insert and push type magazine release mechanism thus making it extremely strong and reliable plastic magazine unlike that of the 5.56 mm INSAS.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by member_22539 »

The MCIWS has one with metal inserts and that should be available if required. Frankly, I hope they go for the MCIWS, since its much more advanced, but cost might be much higher given the milled receiver and need for a new assembly line, though so would the general quality of the rifle, particularly its finish.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by JE Menon »

Learning by doing I guess. Best that way. it is unbelievable that we are even considering ordering infantry rifles from outside India.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by vaibhav.n »

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Does that not look like a gas tube above the vertical grip?

Have they gotten rid of the piston and moved to DI action?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

Vipul wrote:Army prepares for crucial trials as chief insists on indigenous Excalibur.


Another complaint arose when the INSAS was used in counter-militancy operations in Kashmir and the northeast. The army complained that the lighter, 5.56 mm INSAS was not killing militants, as the 7.62 mm AK-47 rifle was with its heavier bullet. In fact, the army had itself demanded a 5.56 mm INSAS rifle, in line with a NATO philosophy that wounding an enemy soldier was better than killing him, since that tied down additional soldiers in evacuating the casualty.

Furthermore, the Excalibur incorporates a "direct gas-tapping angle", which reduces its recoil, or the "jump" when it is fired. The rifle has a foldable butt for easy carriage, and a modern "Picatinny rail" on the barrel - a standardized bracket for mounting telescopic sights, night vision sights, laser aiming modules, bipods or bayonets.
What is "direct gas-tapping angle"?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

In the pictures posted above, the barrel of Excalibur appears much shorter than that of the INSAS. Does that not impact its accuracy?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Kakkaji wrote:In the pictures posted above, the barrel of Excalibur appears much shorter than that of the INSAS. Does that not impact its accuracy?
MCIWS is the same size as INSAS.
INSAS- 964 mm
MCIWS - 905mm butt collapsed - 980mm butt extended.
You can see here that it is not a small rifle.
Image

The upper and receiver of MCIWS are infact more compact that INSAS.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 05 Sep 2015 14:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Vipul wrote:Army prepares for crucial trials as chief insists on indigenous Excalibur.


Now OFB has been asked to manufacture 100 carbines, to the design evolved by ARDE, for trials later this year.
Wow, finally the Army looks inwards for INSAS carbine.

Edit: It appears this might be JVPC/MSMC/Milaap carbine
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

vaibhav.n wrote:
Image
Does that not look like a gas tube above the vertical grip?

Have they gotten rid of the piston and moved to DI action?
That distinctly looks like a piston, similar to one on ARX-160.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Bigh thanks to indian defence review for covering the small arm development. Looks like we got the Colonel's pictures (in blue shirt) holding the MCIWS before we got his article.
srai wrote:^^^

Article worth reading!
Multi-Calibre Assault Rifle: Made in India vs Make in India
By Danvir Singh
Issue Vol. 30.3 Jul-Sep 2015 | Date : 02 Sep , 2015
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MCIWS
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JVPC/MSMC/Milaap
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INSAS with UBGL
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ARDE's corner firing weapon
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Modernised Insas Rifle/ new Excalibur variant
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by abhik »

BTW any photos/videos of the MCIWS chambered for 7.62x39mm been released up to date?
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Thakur_B wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:In the pictures posted above, the barrel of Excalibur appears much shorter than that of the INSAS. Does that not impact its accuracy?
MCIWS is the same size as INSAS.
INSAS- 964 mm
MCIWS - 905mm butt collapsed - 980mm butt extended.
You can see here that it is not a small rifle.

The upper and receiver of MCIWS are infact more compact that INSAS.
Thakur Saheb:

My question/ concern was about the barrel length of Excalibur, not MCIWS
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

shiv wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Looks like they have kept the plastic magazine in Excaliber, despite reported problems of cracking in INSAS :-?
From the article posted above
, it has a fully supported engineering plastic magazine with metallic insert and push type magazine release mechanism thus making it extremely strong and reliable plastic magazine unlike that of the 5.56 mm INSAS.
Doctor Saheb:

That quote is from the Danvir Singh article in IDR about the MCIWS.

In the Sandeep Unnithan article in Mail Today about the Excalibur, he says the Polycabonate magazine is one of the issues that the ARDE has been asked to fix.

We are constantly mixing up the 2 articles and the 2 rifles.

To me, it seems the Excalibur is the single (5.56mm) calibre 'improved INSAS' that Sandeep Unnithan and AJai Shukla say will be selected by the army to replace INSAS after a couple of improvements. According to Shukla, it will cost Rs 60,000 per rifle. There will be another single calibre 7.62mm version version of Excalibur afterwards that will replace the AK-47s in service.

Danvir Singh is talking about the MCIWS that is still under development. I suspect it will be a lot more expensive than the Excalibur. Not sure if it will be selected as the general infantry rifle.

Did I get it right? Can someone clarify?
Last edited by Kakkaji on 06 Sep 2015 03:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

Kakkaji wrote:Thakur Saheb:

My question/ concern was about the barrel length of Excalibur, not MCIWS
Its definitely shorter. Meant to be a carbine really. Which is one of the reasons why the 20 round magazine makes no sense at all.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Viv S wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Thakur Saheb:

My question/ concern was about the barrel length of Excalibur, not MCIWS
Its definitely shorter. Meant to be a carbine really. Which is one of the reasons why the 20 round magazine makes no sense at all.
Maybe part of the barrel is hidden behind the cover in the middle?

One of the articles says the barrel of Excalibur is 60mm shorter than INSAS
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Kakkaji wrote:In the pictures posted above, the barrel of Excalibur appears much shorter than that of the INSAS. Does that not impact its accuracy?
From OFB's website for Excalibur specs (http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/23.htm)
Length of Barrel: 400 mm
Length-Butt Folded/Butt Extended: 665mm/895mm
And for INSAS (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSAS_rifle, http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/12.htm and http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/11.htm:
Barrel length 464 mm (18.3 in)
Length 960 mm (37.8 in)
Length in folded condition: 750 mm (for folding butt model)
As you can see, the Excalibur is shorter in both barrel length, as well as overall length.

In general, shorter barrel lengths affect not only accuracy, but also velocity and range as well.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by arun »

X Posted from the “Positive News From The USA” thread.

In the US a company by name of Spike’s Tactical launches an AR-15 assault rifle that is "designed to never be used by Muslim terrorists." .

The weapon which is an AR-15 assault rifle named “Crusader” is “laser-etched on one side with a Knights Templar Long Cross – a symbol of the Christian Crusades to reclaim the Holy Land from Muslims – and Psalm 144:1 on the other side: "Blessed be the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle."”. :


Assault rifle with Bible verse to repel Muslim terrorists unveiled in Apopka
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

ArmenT wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:In the pictures posted above, the barrel of Excalibur appears much shorter than that of the INSAS. Does that not impact its accuracy?
From OFB's website for Excalibur specs (http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/23.htm)
Length of Barrel: 400 mm
Length-Butt Folded/Butt Extended: 665mm/895mm
And for INSAS (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSAS_rifle, http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/12.htm and http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/11.htm:
Barrel length 464 mm (18.3 in)
Length 960 mm (37.8 in)
Length in folded condition: 750 mm (for folding butt model)
As you can see, the Excalibur is shorter in both barrel length, as well as overall length.

In general, shorter barrel lengths affect not only accuracy, but also velocity and range as well.
OFB is claiming an effective range of 400 meters for both. So they compensate the drop in velocity with more platform stability.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

The initial versions of the M-16 also cme under a lot of criticism as being unreliable and causing deaths of American soldiers in combat. Yet the US army, instead of giving it up and importing something else, kept improving it and now it is considered fine.

Similarily I hope the Excalibur, being an improved version of the INSAS, is adopted by the IA instead of importing something else.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

460 versus 400 mm - that is a 15% difference in length. I am not sure whether the loss of accuracy in operational conditions will be significant if a bullet travels 60 mm less in a barrel.

In the absence of sighting aids like laser dot or a telescope most infantrymen can't hit a target more than 150 meters away - the target is too small. A man's chest which acts like a 1x1 foot square at 10 meters looks coin sized at 100 meters. If accuracy can be maintained till 400 meters then the addition of a telescopic sight will make the soldier more effective - perhaps up to 250-300 meters, provided of course that he can actually see an enemy. That itself could be doubtful going by research. But if he can see someone then a telescopic sight would be useful and the absence of full auto would help stop spraying of a full magazine. After 2 rounds it is impossible to keep a target in one's sights because of recoil.

More important I think would be reliability under adverse conditions and the presence of a sight. The former seems to be the point where Kalashnikovs score over anything else on the planet.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

Image

Can someone tell me what kind of scope this is? Doesn't look like a regular reflex/holographic sight.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

shiv wrote:460 versus 400 mm - that is a 15% difference in length. I am not sure whether the loss of accuracy in operational conditions will be significant if a bullet travels 60 mm less in a barrel.

In the absence of sighting aids like laser dot or a telescope most infantrymen can't hit a target more than 150 meters away - the target is too small. A man's chest which acts like a 1x1 foot square at 10 meters looks coin sized at 100 meters. If accuracy can be maintained till 400 meters then the addition of a telescopic sight will make the soldier more effective - perhaps up to 250-300 meters, provided of course that he can actually see an enemy.
Given that the Colt M4 carbine, which has an even shorter barrel (370 mm.), is listed as having an effective range of 500 meters, it should be easily possible for the Excalibur to be effective at 400 meters. The key, of course, is the ability to actually hit your target and this is where good sights come in.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ramana »

^^^

And how stable is your barrel and stock.
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ArmenT »

Speaking of barrel and stock w.r.t accuracy, it does appear that the MCIWS barrel is free floating in the picture above (the handguard appears to be a hollow tube, as you can see by the first pic near the forward grip). Don't know how well that free floating will work though, when there is a such a large piston driven system above the barrel.
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