Bharat Rakshak

I am sure we have all seen this one:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-i ... ory/213685

Can anyone identify the weapon at approx 2:23-2:25 min and the assault rifle carried by the man bringing up the rear at 2:35-2:40 ?

Assistance much appreciated.

Thanks ArmenT. The article says that OFB has increased the rate of fire by shortening the travel of bullet in the barrel. I am assuming it means a shorter barrel or earlier tapping of gases for autoloading and subsequently higher pressure gases impinging on the piston, increasing the speed of the whole autoloading mechanism? So to accomodate that, OFB is using stiffer recoil spring which is causing stoppages? When I first read tilting breach, tilting barrel came to my mind. Are there any examples of tilting barrel rifles?

Cheers....

Did you mean these?

YUP !

I am speculating the last one is a Franchi SPAS 15 and the first some variant of the MP5.

There is lot of information in the news item if one looks carefully though I really wonder the journalist understood what he was writing about.

The mechanism of Trichy seems to be “tilt bolt” which means that it is modification of FN FAL = Isapore 7.62x51. Just for info the FN MAG also used the same firing mechanism. It seems second attempt at making an indigenous rifle firing 7.62x39 round. The earlier attempt was A-7 which used rotating bolt similar to AK-47 or INSAS.

Normally tilt bolt is not successful with less powerful rounds and FN did not have much success with tilt bolt 5.56x45.

Trichy is a modification of Isapore rifle firing 7.62x39 round from AK compatible Mag, therefore its extraction mechanism will be like Isapore but unlike AK.

The high rate of fire can be small or a big problem depending on the changes required. Sometimes it can required massive re-design of almost every component of the firing & extracting mechanism. I wonder if OFB has access to test rigs and high speed cameras required to solve such a problem.

To add further - High rate of fire is not a good idea for assault rifle. Ideal spot is around 400 to 600 rounds per minute. Further rifles are designed to fire around 10 to 20 rounds per minute in sustained role (150-300 rounds) or around 30-50 rounds per minute for a couple of minutes.

So vic could be the spring(designed for 7.62 mm x51) is too stiff for the 7.62 mmx39 cartridge leading to the jamming under too high a rate of fire?

Recently I watched a show on Discovery "Son of Guns" episode on a modified AR-15. They had a spring issue too.

There can be lot of reasons for jamming. Google for problems in SA-80 UK rifle to get an idea

Thanks for the hint
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/SA80.html






[/quote]

Is the Trichy a bullpup design?

not according to the pics

So how is the SA 80 relevant? Its like ask about them apples and I get info about oranges.

There is a small hump on the butt of Insas towards the rear.
What is it for?

^^^
Looks like the latch for the butt-plate compartment. INSAS is designed with a small compartment in the butt of the rifle, where one can store some basic cleaning tools and an oil bottle. The door of this compartment is at the base of the butt and that little hump looks like where the door latch (or maybe the door hinge) is.

I was under the impression that this could have some functional usage too.
Even the Ishapore 1A1 has a similar hump.

I am not sure whether a latch mandates a hump.

New AK-12 ---> http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3636/aaaaaaabh.png
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9228/byse3.jpg

Kalashnikov AK-12 Unveiled

Izhmash has officially unveiled the final production model of the AK-12 Assault Rifle. According to Max Popenker there will be two models, a Light model (5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm) that accepts all magazines that work with existing AK rifles, as well as a new 60 round quad stack magazine, and a Heavy (7.62x51mm) model that will use a new magazine.



The rifle's major new features are ...

* Ambidextrous forward charging handle.
* Smaller ejection port.
* New safety switch.
* New fire control switch with three modes of fire (single shot, 3 round burst and full auto).
* New hinged top cover. The cover is a lot more rigid that the previous AK rifles.
* Quad picatinny rails.
* Folding and length adjustable stock.
* Ergonomic pistol grip (with a decent radius between trigger guard and grip).
* New muzzle brake that attaches to standard NATO 22mm threading.
* Improved barrel rifling.

Whilst it is not pretty, ion fact it is downright ugly, it possess all the features of the latest western assault rifles.

This is ak copying ins as

Video of AK-12.

http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=396726

Don't know how India manages to get the worst from the best!

I'm guessing its because the so called "best", Beretta supplied rubbish to India. The reputation exceeds the quality.



The Italians are not doing quailty control it seems.

Since the Italians agreed to replace them without much hoopla, it was obviously their fault.

Can gurus throw light on how a 9mm SMG can be useful to a force like BSF, whose main job is policing the border? They would not have to deal with too many CQB situations like what the NSG or SPG may encounter.

To me here is one more illustration of the "automatic contempt" of fellow Indian by Indian when something is wrong. The Times Now video blames the BSF for goofing when in fact they have not goofed up. Beretta has goofed up

The video shows that after the weapon consignment was delivered

113 weapons had new corrosion
164 weapons with tool marks
9 weapons showed machining ring problems
1 weapon bulged on firing

This actually shows thoroughness, not deficiency. The weapons shown to the BSF and tested in Italy were fine. This is typical of any salesman who shows shiny stuff but sends out rubbish to the monkey who may not notice it. Why do Indians automatically blame other Indians when dealing with gora aadmi?

Watch the video
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/bsf- ... 73233.html

Frankly all these issues are minor and it seems a motivated leak to discredit Beretta by Rivals. Having said this the whole business of small arms procurement by para military by imports is stinking. The reasons for massive purchase of small arms by Para military like 5.56 mm Tavor, 9mm beretta, Mp5s for around Rs. 350-500 crores seem dubious. Folding stock INSAS with indigenous holographic sight would have done the job at 1/5th the cost. The R&D cost for INSAS was Rs 5 crores and even now the R&D cost for a new rifle is around US$ 2 to 10 million depending on the nation and design.

OLD REPORT

So each force is getting its own weapons! And now the BSF procurement is shoddy. Who does BSF engage that they need these exotic wepaons? Isnt it deployed at borders in which case the INSAS should be good enough for its good for the Indian Army?


Looks like its Beretta's fault and they are replacing them. Mfg warranty clauses.

I don't think the weapon is exotic beyond the fact that pulp fiction makes the name Beretta exotic. But it is a compact weapon as far as I can tell. Even the INSAS looks too big for this BSF girl. We need Indian girl sized weapons too I suspect.

Question is what will that BSF girl (or any BSF soldier) do with a 9mm SMG while guarding the border.

9mm SMG's are generally used by SPECOPS for close quarter battles.

Well here is what my Unkal says
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... chine-gun/


http://world.guns.ru/smg/it/submachine- ... mx4-e.html


The BSF is replacing its stock of 9 mm Sterling carbines with another 9 mm. Maybe they have humongous ammo stocks anyway.

Let me explain, An AK or INSAS is better, almost of same weight and size as 9mm SMG Beretta and 1/5th the cost.

Massive number of 9mm SMG used to make sense when primary weapon was bolt action rifle or even heavy FN FAL 7.62x51 SLRs. With the assault rifles taking over, such massive purchases of Rs. 500 crores of SMGs smack of, looks like, smells like cra* err corruption. Let m ask how many 9mm Beretta has been purchased by Italy?

Look at the SMGs being purchased by us Beretta, FN, HK, Tavor, Colt etc. There is no need for this product, a need is created and then fulfilled by dubious imports.

I never really understood what role the Sterling played either.

In the BSF? I don't know either - except that as someone said that the Sterling made sense for close in fighting when everyone else was carrying 303s. Also I have plenty of memories (and I still see) the Sterling being carried for VIP security in the front/back seat of a car (compact) and it crowded places where raising a long weapon into firing position is physically restricted. How this translates to BSF requirement I don't know although vic's theory may be correct - you have to keep money flowing to skim some off. But I would have thought that an order for 30,000 rifles would raise at least one eyebrow somewhere. More than one person would be making money from that making lots more people jealous.

Does anyone know what is the manpower strength of the BSF. A simple Google did not help me.

Sterling was issued to officers and JCOs as a PDW. That was the role - give them something more than a pistol. It was also issued to radio operators. Actually it still is.

BSF strength is around 210,261 as of last year I think. It was given in a MHA report card.

Hmmm. Can't be their role in the BSF, since they ordered 68000 MX4s. That's way to many just for equipping Officers and radio operators. Besides, the INSAS doesn't face the shortcomings of the unwieldy FN-FAL. Officers should be no problem carrying the INSAS as well.

I agree - I actually thought the figure was 34,000 MX4 - but it could be that some lower velocity weapons were needed for border policing rather than defence ?

Oh, I read the 68000 number here...



The India Today article mentions 34000 guns though.

Being charitable to the men and women who are actually literally on the frontline - more so than the army, I think that there must be some requirement for this sort of weapon that we are missing - given the mental image that I have at least of men an women patrolling next to a fence on open ground with a long rifle slung on the shoulder.

Actually - been thinking. Allocate 2 per section - radio op and section commander. Add to that weapons for vehicle crews, officers etc and you might really get the requirement for these weapons.

It is incorrect to assume that BSF does not need submachine guns because they are a border protection force and not a CQB force.As if both are mutually exclusive.There are lot of sections on Indian Borders that are densely populated and where there is a real chance of CQB happening.For eg Indo Bangladesh border.Some BRFites also seem to be missing that BSF has also been performing Counter insurgency for a long time from Kashmir valley to currently in Naxal areas.So to say that BSF does not need SMGs is wrong.

However it is indeed debatable that whether Beretta should have been chosen for this contract as it is no longer synonymous with quality.Beretta weapons are not bad but they are not very good either.Just mediocre.There are reliability issues.But then in India since selection is done on L1 basis , any firm which fulfills the QR can get the contract.

This is the right way to look at it IMO too. For a force like BSF, the only utility of a 9mm SMG that I can think of is policing well-subdued rear areas where the local population is unarmed and overt show of weapons is not desirable. Truly doubt the Berettas are meant for border duty, even for drivers and officers.

There was some requirement of 2G scam also which Supreme Court did not understand (missed)