Su-30: News and Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2011 01:17

tsarkar wrote:Can anyone post the flight safety article of the incident when the Su30 engine caught fire but pilots were able to land safely.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 18#p952318

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2011 05:08

From the above pics, the more rounder and solid the part, the more it survived (relative destruction). round and hollow cylindrical parts were torn apart.

so, for future designers, the thought could be : the hollow fuselage strengthening could focus on strengthening along the cylindrical design. again, we have no idea on the weights- kevlar composites are a fine option for such strengthening.

but, when it comes usability, is it really required is another question.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 14 Dec 2011 08:35

Early investigations indicate failure of fly-by-wire, due to which pilots lost control of the aircraft and ejected. This was also the case with the first accident of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI in 2009.
The point is did IAF not managed to rectify the fly-by-wire problem uptil now.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 14 Dec 2011 11:03

IAF grounds Sukhoi till 'precautionary checks' over

The pilots ensured the crashing jet would not cause casualties on the ground, said Lohegaon airbase chief, Air Commodore V R Chaudhari.

Added another senior officer, "The Sukhois have not been grounded...But yes, they will undergo some systematic technical checks now before they take to the skies again. The multi-role fighters have had a great safety track-record."

................

"There was no engine failure or `flame-out'. It seems the pilots lost the controls of the fighter, leaving them with no option but to undertake planned ejection," said an officer.

The main reason behind one of the two earlier Sukhoi crashes in 2009 was attributed to the FBW system (the other was due to "a fuel leak"), which led to summoning of Russian engineers to probe the crash and the entire Sukhoi fleet being grounded for three weeks.

Later, it emerged that one of the pilots had accidentally switched off the FBW system, located behind him in the cockpit, while trying to change the radar mode from one frequency to another.

"It was a combination of pilot error and a design flaw in the FBW system master-switch. Since then, all Sukhois have been modified to add a safety guard to prevent the accidental switching off of the FBW system," he said.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Dec 2011 11:09

SagarAg Ji you need to report to Kavecomplex 72 for re-education by Bose mullah.

How on earth can IAF/HAL or their grandfather fix FBW for the MKI? Do they ahve the source code ? Even if they have it, do they know what was wrong ? Do they have the designer amongst them to debug? Do you think BRDs can fix FBW problems ?This is the problem with phoren maal. So please stop ranting about how IAF could have fixed it. Btw i remember reading somewhere that how the designer(Rosoboron/Sukhoi knaapo) tends to always blame the end user(or his cleanliness

) even when the fault is in the design. This also happened in the case of Jaguar(case of SDRE engineer Shri Jayaram fixing fluid leak) and was never acknowledged by BAC

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2011 11:31

not only was it not acknowledged, BAe applied the desi solutions to the worldwide fleet and refused any IP rights.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 14 Dec 2011 11:37

suryag wrote:SagarAg Ji you need to report to Kavecomplex 72 for re-education by Bose mullah.

How on earth can IAF/HAL or their grandfather fix FBW for the MKI? Do they ahve the source code ? Even if they have it, do they know what was wrong ? Do they have the designer amongst them to debug? Do you think BRDs can fix FBW problems ?This is the problem with phoren maal. So please stop ranting about how IAF could have fixed it. Btw i remember reading somewhere that how the designer(Rosoboron/Sukhoi knaapo) tends to always blame the end user(or his cleanliness ) even when the fault is in the design. This also happened in the case of Jaguar(case of SDRE engineer Shri Jayaram fixing fluid leak) and was never acknowledged by BAC

By fixing it I meant, did they contacted the manufacturer or designer or who so ever concerned with fixing the FBW problem. I dont think they would have done nothing to take up the matter with concerned authorities.

On a side note I never underestimate our IAF/HAL. As the case pointed by you

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 13:00

FBW failure? Must be Indian software coolies

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Dec 2011 13:26

kmkraoind wrote:IAF grounds Sukhoi till 'precautionary checks' over

"There was no engine failure or `flame-out'. It seems the pilots lost the controls of the fighter, leaving them with no option but to undertake planned ejection," said an officer.

[/quote]

Was FI the only one blaming the engine?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Dec 2011 13:41

Rahul M wrote:not only was it not acknowledged, BAe applied the desi solutions to the worldwide fleet and refused any IP rights.

For nanhas who never read the excellent article on the incident being referred to: A Tale of two Hydraulic Systems

The author (now departed) is our very own Dr.Pisko's cousin.

And in case you think he was some manual wielding geek babu, he won his Vir Chakra for action during the Battle of Longewala.

suryag, Kave Kamplex 72 is for good mujahids onlee. Bad mujahids (who moan about IAF's lack of maintainence of gora-owned FBW software) need to report to Kave Kamplex 420 for le-education.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Dec 2011 18:46

the first Sukhoi loss was due to Human Error. The pilot switched off the FBW trying to switch off something else and the ac went out of control. There was a report that went into the causes etc at that time. The 'fix' would have been to make switching off the FBW in flight impossible or difficult - that shouldnt have been much difficult to achive

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2011 19:25

Switching off FBW should not lead to a crash and the aircraft becomes totally uncontrollable. If it is done inadvertently, then the design should give a tacit/sound warning immediately and engage the pilot on his own, making his senses realize there is no FBW, and he can't do the regular flying stunts.

That is the not the case here.. the pilots did try to navigate the plane, but did not succeed. So, the first hand info is that it is not an accidental switch off!

Now coming to the design, why in the world one wants to have FBW engagement by a switch.. this itself means, that the designer is not confident about the working of the FBW, and thought about providing an alternate way to control the a/c systems.

Design Error in the first place. Now, let the firangies aim their gun at SDRE men!

. This could be a GDF'ed inferiority complexion situation that needs to be discussed.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Dec 2011 19:44

This is for the first Crash - not the rcent one.. Just to refresh memories...

http://www.stratpost.com/sukhoi-crash-c ... ilot-error

The crash of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft on April 30 was caused by pilot error. StratPost has learned that the cause became clear within 3-4 days after the crash itself.
Sources have informed StratPost the crash occurred due to mishandling of the Flight Control System (FCS) by the pilot, which led to the crash. While some reports indicate the pilot to have inadvertently switched off the FCS altogether, other reports are also suggesting a second error in control was made after the FCS was switched off, which led to complete loss of control. Experts on this aircraft remark it to be quite possible for the pilot to have inadvertently overridden the FCS and then mishandled the control of the aircraft, leading to the crash.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/27/stories ... 122000.htm

The Court of Inquiry (CoI) that went into the crash found that the pilot, Wing Commander S. V. Munje, inadvertently switched-off the four switches that control the power supply to the computer. Switching-off the power not only cuts off the power supply to the computer, but is also irreversible. Switching them on does not ‘power on’ the all important unit.

The aircraft went into a forward bunt, lost control and crashed, killing Wing Commander P. S. Nara, an officer from the IAF’s Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI).

During the flight, the aircraft is said to have experienced a technical glitch after a round of firing practice. The pilot, who was also under routine inspection by the DASI, is said to have then tried to switch-off the armament master switches, which are located just behind the pilot’s seat and in close proximity to the switches that control power to the flight control computer.

Though the CoI’s conclusion was that the crash occurred due to pilot error, a number of officials are questioning the placing of critical switches that are not to be used during in flight and only for power on when the aircraft is on theground in the cockpit and also, the inadequate in-built safety mechanisms like a wire lock or even a covering flap.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Dec 2011 20:39

How many Sukhois must crash for us to call it a scandal?

The DDM remains DDM

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 14 Dec 2011 20:57

shiv wrote:FBW failure? Must be Indian software coolies

Hey shiv..the day these coolies stop working ...the billions of dollars they send back to india and the amount which they earn due to outsourcing .. .. will dry up.....further , money will dry up from the pockets of govt of india ..and then of MoD...and then No toys to play with !! So ..even its their fault...today IAF might had lost one of them but its their money which has bought us this toy ....So MORALE of the story ...HAVE RESPECT ....Peace.. !!!!

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 14 Dec 2011 21:11

^^^ OT but can you differentiate between sarcasm and criticism ? .... go easy buddy

manum · Post by **manum** » 14 Dec 2011 21:11

chandanus wrote:
shiv wrote:FBW failure? Must be Indian software coolies
Hey shiv..the day these coolies stop working ...the billions of dollars they send back to india and the amount which they earn due to outsourcing .. .. will dry up.....further , money will dry up from the pockets of govt of india ..and then of MoD...and then No toys to play with !! So ..even its their fault...today IAF might had lost one of them but its their money which has bought us this toy ....So MORALE of the story ...HAVE RESPECT ....Peace.. !!!!

Chandanus, What exactly are you reading into, what shiv has written?

FOR shiv :- you seem to be getting unpopular among trainees...They pick you more often than not...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2011 21:14

FOR shiv :- you seem to be getting unpopular among trainees...They pick you more often than not...

variant of poe's law.

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 14 Dec 2011 21:40

Rahul M wrote:
FOR shiv :- you seem to be getting unpopular among trainees...They pick you more often than not...
variant of poe's law.

May be in this case its a kind of poe's law but survival rate after suicide is quite high in BR.

Sorry for OT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 21:43

chandanus wrote:
shiv wrote:FBW failure? Must be Indian software coolies
Hey shiv..the day these coolies stop working ...the billions of dollars they send back to india and the amount which they earn due to outsourcing .. .. will dry up.....further , money will dry up from the pockets of govt of india ..and then of MoD...and then No toys to play with !! So ..even its their fault...today IAF might had lost one of them but its their money which has bought us this toy ....So MORALE of the story ...HAVE RESPECT ....Peace.. !!!!

Thanks for the reaction. It is heartening that someone is actually standing up for Indians with spine and pride. You made my day brother. There are at least some Indians with self respect. Most of the time it is a loud caterwaul that some stupid Indian has botched it again.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 14 Dec 2011 23:40

^^^^ha ha ..Great shiv...that u took nothing personal in it ...bus..thoda jazbatti ho gaya tha...Afterall we all have some coolie friends in our lives and many others from different walks of life..i.e. paanwala's ...who together constitute this wonderful country...INDIA ...cheers..

!!!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Dec 2011 00:17

Raja Bose wrote:
Rahul M wrote:not only was it not acknowledged, BAe applied the desi solutions to the worldwide fleet and refused any IP rights.
For nanhas who never read the excellent article on the incident being referred to: A Tale of two Hydraulic Systems

The author (now departed) is our very own Dr.Pisko's cousin. And in case you think he was some manual wielding geek babu, he won his Vir Chakra for action during the Battle of Longewala.

suryag, Kave Kamplex 72 is for good mujahids onlee. Bad mujahids (who moan about IAF's lack of maintainence of gora-owned FBW software) need to report to Kave Kamplex 420 for le-education.

And the pilot who nursed the second Jaguar back to base got the Vayu Sena medal.

K

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Dec 2011 09:57

PM visit: India to buy 42 ‘upgraded’ Sukhois

New Delhi After negotiating for more than a year, India has firmed up an order with Russia for the purchase of 42 upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft to strengthen its aging fleet. An agreement confirming this purchase will be signed during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Russia starting Thursday.

While the Cabinet Committee on Security had taken a decision on buying 42 additional Sukhoi MKIs last year, negotiations have taken longer because India was also keen to include some of the features found in fifth generation fighter aircraft. Finally, the Russian side agreed to upgrade the SU-30 MKIs to its latest version known as ‘Super Sukhoi’ with additional characteristics.

The new version is expected to include a new cockpit, an upgraded radar and certain stealth features to avoid radar detection. Significantly, the upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile. India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run.

While Russia may have lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal because of not being able to offer certain additional features, officials said, Moscow has assured New Delhi that it will roll out its best in upgraded SU-30 MKIs.

“The defence cooperation is robust and excellent. Our two countries have developed maturity that individual deals will not affect the ties,” said Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai while responding to a question on whether the MMRCA rejection will impact defence ties.

The deal, estimated at over Rs 20,000 crore, will be operational in three years with the first delivery expected in 2014 and the last by 2018. Once the 42 aircraft are inducted, the total strength of SU-30 MKI fleet will go up to 272. It may be noted that by 2017, India plans to phase out 120 MiG 21s and with the MMRCA still not a done deal, the SU-30 MKI fleet will be the mainstay.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Dec 2011 10:19

^^ Is this separate from the 40 aircraft for the SFC?

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 15 Dec 2011 11:45

These 42 Aircrafts are to be manufactured by HAL? This conforms with the previous news items that the HAL order will only be completed by 2018, also the 20,000 crores cost overruns estimated by CAG.

So it's 40(1996 russia) + 10(1998 russia) + 140(2000 HAL) + 40(2007 russia*) + 42(2011 HAL)= 272?

* - "IAF plans to retain its combat edge by fast-track acquisition of 40 more Sukhoi-30MKIs from Russia as well as faster indigenous production of 140 of these fighters."
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ombat-edge

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 15 Dec 2011 13:15

Rediff:

All Sukhoi flights from Trishul stopped after crash, probe on:
After the crash of IAF Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft in Pune, all its flights from Trishul airforce station here have been stopped and all aircraft are being checked. "All the flights of Sukhoi has been stopped from here and checking of aircrafts is underway," Chief Administrative Officer of Trishul Airforce Station S K Bhatnagar said. "Crash of Sukhoi is not a common phenomenon. An inquiry is underway to ascertain the reason of the Pune crash," he said.

Also, now these 42 upgraded MKI's are going to cost over 20,000 crores i.e. nearly $90mn a bird. Last year the figure given was over 15,000 crore.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Dec 2011 13:40

Nikhil, read the article, these 42 Sukhoi's probably cost $100 million each because of superior features from existing Sukhois like

1) New radar- may be IRBIS
2) strengthened undercarraige for carrying Brahmos.
3) Lower RCS, by redesigned Engine inlets etc. similair to silent eagle proposed by Boeing.

I think this 15000 crore to 20000 crore is probably due to the drop in Rupee value.

krish.pf · Post by **krish.pf** » 15 Dec 2011 14:32

Can someone clarify my previous question? Different websites tell different stories.

"In 2007, Rosoboronexport and Irkut, on the one hand, and the Indian Defence Ministry, on the other, made a deal for 40 Su-30MKIs more, which boosted the number of HAL-produced fighters up to 180. Irkut started the delivery of the knockdown kits under the new contract in 2008. HAL’s boss Ashok Nayak has said recently that his corporation had delivered “about 105 Su-30MKI planes” to IAF, with the Indian Defence Ministry expected to order 42 fighters more, driving the total number of HAL-assembled Su-30MKIs up to 222 units."

http://en.take-off.ru/news/102-feb2011/ ... ia-02-2011

Since this is a russian source rather than our mil-illiterate media, this appears more plausible. Or does anyone have the right info?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Dec 2011 17:43

No need for alarm over crash-Air-marshal bhushan gokhale

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Dec 2011 18:42

Aditya_V wrote:Nikhil, read the article, these 42 Sukhoi's probably cost $100 million each because of superior features from existing Sukhois like

1) New radar- may be IRBIS
2) strengthened undercarraige for carrying Brahmos.
3) Lower RCS, by redesigned Engine inlets etc. similair to silent eagle proposed by Boeing.

I think this 15000 crore to 20000 crore is probably due to the drop in Rupee value.

I believe this order is for SFC.
That explains the cost as these will have some redundant hardwired systems.
HAL might not manufacture these if so.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 15 Dec 2011 19:50

I think the total number is 232 and not 272. HAL 2007 order has not been verified.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Dec 2011 20:13

alexis wrote:I think the total number is 232 and not 272. HAL 2007 order has not been verified.

http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease. ... 5262[quote] contact for procurement of additional 40 SU-30 MKI was signed with M/s HAL in 2007[/quote]Page 45 (Page 36 in the document) http://cdasecbad.ap.nic.in/sankalan/COM ... f[quote]In order to arrest the declining force levels of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Ministry concluded a contract with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in March 2007 for the supply of 40 aircraft `M' with associated equipment at an aggregate cost of Rs 9,036.84 crore. The aircraft were to be delivered in a phased manner between 2008-11.[/quote]
How Govt fools people - offset policy applies only when Govt directly purchases. If PSU purchases and re-sells to govt, then offset policy doesnt apply, since anything with PSU label is indigenous.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Dec 2011 19:24

alexis wrote:I think the total number is 232 and not 272. HAL 2007 order has not been verified.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 134192.cms

"The present protocol envisaged manufacture of an additional 42 aircraft by HAL, taking the total Sukhois for the IAF to 272 planes," Sharma told.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 16 Dec 2011 22:32

Pune crash: IAF says Su-30MKI aircraft crashed due to unknown fault

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Dec 2011 23:42

tsarkar wrote:
alexis wrote:I think the total number is 232 and not 272. HAL 2007 order has not been verified.
http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease. ... 5262[quote] contact for procurement of additional 40 SU-30 MKI was signed with M/s HAL in 2007

Page 45 (Page 36 in the document) http://cdasecbad.ap.nic.in/sankalan/COM ... f[quote]In order to arrest the declining force levels of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Ministry concluded a contract with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in March 2007 for the supply of 40 aircraft `M' with associated equipment at an aggregate cost of Rs 9,036.84 crore. The aircraft were to be delivered in a phased manner between 2008-11.[/quote]
How Govt fools people - offset policy applies only when Govt directly purchases. If PSU purchases and re-sells to govt, then offset policy doesnt apply, since anything with PSU label is indigenous.[/quote]

I think this may be because they want to pretend this is a 'follow-on' order equivalent to exercising 'options' in order to avoid the usual parliamentary fracas.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 17 Dec 2011 02:09

karan_mc wrote:Pune crash: IAF says Su-30MKI aircraft crashed due to unknown fault

Interesting food for thought regarding FBW. It seems the pilots tried for almost 20 minutes to control the aircraft but were unable to do it to a point where they felt comfortable landing the plane.

Very strange though; these systems typically have a lot of redundant components. Depending on the age of the plane, degradation in the electronics can also cause such problems. Wonder if they have a bypass mode where the FBW is completely bypassed and the aircraft operates with stick and pedals.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 17 Dec 2011 03:40

^^ on a funny note, I hope Russians have not figured out how to activate kill switch remotely on their planes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2011 06:11

VikramS wrote:
karan_mc wrote:Pune crash: IAF says Su-30MKI aircraft crashed due to unknown fault
Interesting food for thought regarding FBW. It seems the pilots tried for almost 20 minutes to control the aircraft but were unable to do it to a point where they felt comfortable landing the plane.

Very strange though; these systems typically have a lot of redundant components. Depending on the age of the plane, degradation in the electronics can also cause such problems. Wonder if they have a bypass mode where the FBW is completely bypassed and the aircraft operates with stick and pedals.

Vikram - if you read the history of many aircraft you see how odd unknown defects turn up after several thousands of hours have been flown. One of the most well known ones (to mango man) is the story of the Comet and its fatigue fractures. Another one known to BR is the Jaguar landing gear story.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 06:21

karan_mc wrote:Pune crash: IAF says Su-30MKI aircraft crashed due to unknown fault

Modern aviation products develop faults in the electrical or avionics. It could be a connector disengaging due to flight environments, lack of proper mating of connectors etc.
Sometimes the circuit boards flex and short.

And true the same FBW could have a different type of failure this time.

And even after spending hours in diagnosis it could be an unverified failure (UVF).

Most important is to ensure its not systemic (ie in the whole fleet), not operator induced (can be fixed with more training).

Its for such reasons that flight inventory should be diversified.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 17 Dec 2011 08:17

Aditya_V wrote:...these 42 Sukhoi's probably cost $100 million each...

Holy smokes we're getting into F-22\F-35 territory now...