Su-30: News and Discussion

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Jul 2008 20:35

MukulMohanty wrote:I guess this is going to be Russia's MRCA.

MOSCOW, July 14 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's leading aircraft maker Sukhoi plans to produce its new state-of-the-art Su-35 Flanker-E multirole fighter plane over a period of 10 years up to 2020, the company's general director said.

Deliveries of the new air superiority/strike fighter, billed as a "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology" aircraft, to foreign clients will start in 2011.

"I think we will continue producing Su-35s at least until 2020," Mikhail Pogosyan said in an interview with Expert, a Russian business publication. "According to our estimates, demand for this fighter is over 200 aircraft."

Su-35 successfully completed its first demonstration flight last Monday and may enter service with the Russian Air Force in two or three years. It is also slated for exports to Russia's traditional customers in Southeast Asia, Latin America and the Middle East.

The Su-35, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to effectively engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems.

The aircraft features the new Irbis-E radar with a phased antenna array, which allows the pilot to detect and track up to 30 air targets, while simultaneously engaging up to eight targets.

It is equipped with a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and can carry up to eight tons of combat payload on 12 eternal mounts.

Pogosyan said the company would deliver 24-30 aircraft to its clients annually.

"We can expect orders for at least 25-30 aircraft annually," he said, adding that Sukhoi could successfully compete for at least 7% of the world's market of combat aircraft.

"If we want to become a leader on the global aircraft-manufacturing market, we must sharply increase production of civilian aircraft," Pogosyan said, referring to the Superjet 100 family of medium-range passenger aircraft, developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau in cooperation with major American and European aviation corporations.

Sukhoi earlier said it plans to equalize the share of civilian and military aircraft in its production portfolio by 2015.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Jul 2008 02:43

if my memory serves me right, IRBIS was supposed to be integrated to Su 30 MKI Phase III.

What happened to that plan, is it still on or Russians again took IAF for a ride?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 15 Jul 2008 03:27

Hello Sid,

From my memory I cannot recall coming across any authoritative news source which claimed the use of Irbis for Su-30MKI Phase 3.

What I have come across are plans of using Irbis and/or it's derivative in one form or the other for an MLU of MKI phase 3 sometime in the future.

It would be helpful if you could remember the source of your information / impression.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Jul 2008 03:43

JaiS wrote:Hello Sid,

From my memory I cannot recall coming across any authoritative news source which claimed the use of Irbis for Su-30MKI Phase 3.

What I have come across are plans of using Irbis and/or it's derivative in one form or the other for an MLU of MKI phase 3 sometime in the future.

It would be helpful if you could remember the source of your information / impression.

sorry, i cant remember the real source but following link too contains info on that. Don't know how authenticated is it.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

edit: - you are right, looks like its intended for follow on version of Phase 3 MKI. sorry for the confusion.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Jul 2008 09:25

For your info guys...

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-24e-04.asp

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread174590/pg1

And it says in the second link here, that IRBIS is actually being co-developed with the LRDE!!

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 15 Jul 2008 20:38

Hello DMurphy,

Thanks for the 'information'.

Always be wary of any news coming out of your first link, i.e. "IndiaDaily.com".

Their credibility is demonstrated by a ton of articles on their website, many of which are from none other than it's editorial staff. Take a look at the following link from India Daily

India may be the first country to explain to the world about extra-terrestrial and UFO contacts – the secret debate is on

It is well accepted between the UFO and extra-terrestrial experts that all the five nuclear powers are in contact with the beings from other stars for quite some time. Recently India has seen enormous news on UFO contacts and secret UFO bases in Himalayas near the Chinese bases. In Ladak, for example the locals clearly point out the everyday phenomenon of large triangular spacecrafts coming out below the ground and Indian security forces protecting them.

Military officials and politicians have confessed the fact that India has been contacted. India has been told the rules of the Universe.

You can find a gazillion such news and informations on India Daily website, if you search a bit.

As far as your second link is concerned, the article which mentions about LRDE developing an AESA Irbis with NIIP was first mentioned in Force magazine. The assertion that Irbis is an AESA flies in the face of what it's manufacturers claim it to be and I would consider NIIP's words regarding Irbis more seriously than PS's words since it is their product.

For reference, check out this page from NIIP's website.

Конструктивно «Ирбис-Э» представляет собой многофункциональную РЛ - систему X-диапазона, выполненную на базе пассивной ФАР, размещенной на двухстепенном гидроприводе (по азимуту и крену), с использованием перспективной вычислительной системы ЕКВС-Э с БЦВМ «Соло-35».

Translated as

Design "Irbis-E" is a multifunctional RL - X-band system, carried out on the basis of passive FAR placed on indirect elections of hydraulic (Azimuth and roll), with the use of forward-looking computer system EKVS-E with BTSVM "Solo-35".

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 16 Jul 2008 16:26

Few Good pics of Su-30 MKI's

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/gl ... icily.html

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Jul 2008 16:40

Sad that the pictures of such small size

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 16 Jul 2008 16:52

Sheesh...

i feel like jerk actually...!! damn that Indiadaily site.

Actually even i came across thatarticle sometime back and noted down the site, so that i never refer to it again. Yet somehow I overlooked it this time round.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jul 2008 21:50

JaiS wrote:Recently India has seen enormous news on UFO contacts and secret UFO bases in Himalayas near the Chinese bases. In Ladak, for example the locals clearly point out the everyday phenomenon of large triangular spacecrafts coming out below the ground and Indian security forces protecting them.

Military officials and politicians have confessed the fact that India has been contacted. India has been told the rules of the Universe.

Emm interesting , could that Triangular shape UFO could be any Top Secret DRDO project ? US also maintains similar in Skunk Works

Finally what rules of Universe are these people talking about

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Jul 2008 00:59

Austin,

Well sorry for causing the confusion, but I posted that report to show that India Daily website is a joke, and that it should be the last place where one should go to get Indian Military related news.

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 17 Jul 2008 02:39

Indian Air Force SU-30 MKIs fly over the Atlantic Ocean en route to the United States to participate in Red Flag, an aerial training exercise. (AP Photo)

Source: TOI

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 17 Jul 2008 03:00

Beautiful picture will all three with their air brakes deployed. Must be on a decent!

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Jul 2008 03:12

Russia may export new Su-35 fighters to India, Malaysia, Algeria

FARNBOROUGH, July 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is ready to export the new state-of-the-art Su-35 Flanker multirole air superiority/strike fighter to India, Malaysia and Algeria, Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.

"Algeria, Malaysia and India are our partners and if they express an interest, we will offer them the Su-35 fighter while fulfilling our current obligations," Alexander Mikheyev, head of the air force department at Rosoboronexport, said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti at the Farnborough International Air Show in England.

In 2007, Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, exported about 50 Su-30MK2, Su-30MKM and Su-30MKI aircraft under contracts with a number of countries, including Algeria, India, and Malaysia.

The company is planning to export at least 160 Su-35 fighters in the future, Sukhoi's deputy head Sergei Korotkov said at a news conference in Farnborough on Tuesday.

"The [Su-35] aircraft has attracted a lot of attention," Korotkov said. "As part of our business plan, we expect to sell about 160 planes."

The Su-35 fighter, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to effectively engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems.

The aircraft features the new Irbis-E radar with a phased antenna array, which allows the pilot to detect and track up to 30 air targets, while simultaneously engaging up to eight targets.

It is equipped with a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and can carry up to eight tons of combat payload on 12 eternal mounts.

Sukhoi earlier said it plans to start deliveries of the new aircraft, billed as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology," to foreign clients in 2011 and produce Su-35s over a period of 10 years up to 2020.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 17 Jul 2008 04:07

Austin wrote:Emm interesting , could that Triangular shape UFO could be any Top Secret DRDO project ? US also maintains similar in Skunk Works

Finally what rules of Universe are these people talking about

Austin
These UFO Occupants and ET have traversed the entire universe to tell our Politicians,
Communists of India are Traitors, Don't ever trusts Chicoms they will back stab you again.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 17 Jul 2008 09:24

JaiS wrote:Russia may export new Su-35 fighters to India, Malaysia, Algeria

FARNBOROUGH, July 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is ready to export the new state-of-the-art Su-35 Flanker multirole air superiority/strike fighter to India, Malaysia and Algeria, Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.

"Algeria, Malaysia and India are our partners and if they express an interest, we will offer them the Su-35 fighter while fulfilling our current obligations," Alexander Mikheyev, head of the air force department at Rosoboronexport, said in an exclusive interview with RIA Novosti at the Farnborough International Air Show in England.

In 2007, Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, exported about 50 Su-30MK2, Su-30MKM and Su-30MKI aircraft under contracts with a number of countries, including Algeria, India, and Malaysia.

The company is planning to export at least 160 Su-35 fighters in the future, Sukhoi's deputy head Sergei Korotkov said at a news conference in Farnborough on Tuesday.

"The [Su-35] aircraft has attracted a lot of attention," Korotkov said. "As part of our business plan, we expect to sell about 160 planes."

The Su-35 fighter, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to effectively engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems.

The aircraft features the new Irbis-E radar with a phased antenna array, which allows the pilot to detect and track up to 30 air targets, while simultaneously engaging up to eight targets.

It is equipped with a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and can carry up to eight tons of combat payload on 12 eternal mounts.

Sukhoi earlier said it plans to start deliveries of the new aircraft, billed as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology," to foreign clients in 2011 and produce Su-35s over a period of 10 years up to 2020.

JaiS, what distinctive edge does this plane have over over MKI other than Engine and Radar and can MKI be upgraded to be fit with 117S engines and the new Irbis-E radar . would it requre any significant modifications to accomodate these changes

. thanks

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 17 Jul 2008 10:06

I have an idea.

AFAIK, we have produced only half the MKIs that we will evetually be producing. Why not buy/produce 126 SU-35s instead of the remaining MKIs (also in lieu of Mig-35 MMRCA), on a quasi-MMRCA contract?? The maintenance, production lines shouldnt differ much from that of the MKIs.

Also, we could ask for a complete ToT on Su-35s for the engines as well.

Having said the above...the MMRCA deal can go on parallely (sans Mig-35), where we could buy the best medium weight a/c like EF or Rafale without annoying the Russians.

What says people?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 17 Jul 2008 10:20

This whole thing about offering us the new Su35 is bullcrap. We already have Rambha which mind you is a dedicated two seater. Besides it was customised for our needs incorporating our equipment-the key is "OUR EQUIPMENT".

If we need to improve the radar, then that does not necessarily have to be the IRBIS, why not develop an inhouse radar with the help of LRDE and rope in ISRAELI tech assistance. That way we can have an AESA radar for the Rambha in the future and it could possibly be further advance to be used in the Indian PAK FA/5th Gen fighter.

If the 117s has the same dimensions of the AL31 FP on the MKI then that can be retrofitted as a rolling upgrade at a latter date.

Going in for the Su35 in my opinion will mean adding more phorein equipment while ideally we should be aiming to reduce the phorein content and incorporate more local equipment.

Just my throughts

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 17 Jul 2008 10:25

Some more Nice Pics of SU-30 MKI

Krishnan i think Shiv Aroor read your post and he has taken care of the size of the Pics

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/mo ... tugal.html

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 17 Jul 2008 10:30

suffice to give jingos the goosebumps.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 17 Jul 2008 10:33

Dmurphy wrote:
Also, we could ask for a complete ToT on Su-35s for the engines as well.

Having said the above...the MMRCA deal can go on parallely (sans Mig-35), where we could buy the best medium weight a/c like EF or Rafale without annoying the Russians.

What says people?

Russians many times held back or demanded more money when it comes to TOT,so not sure how much they are willing to provide, TOT of engine will be a good idea,but i think we are going to be preoccupied by Manufacturing of RD-33 and EJ 200 if it is selected for LCA.

My Suggestion would be to not to club SU-35 in MRCA contest,rather get them as extension to SU-30 MKI, if that AC is Really Good,Then go for 70 odd SU-35 in addition to 230 MKI's and have them from Russian Production Lines as HAL would be tied up with SU_30,MRCA,HAWK,LCA Production.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 17 Jul 2008 10:48

If SU-35 is good then during the MLU around 2015-18 upgrade the MKI with Irbis or NIIP AESA radar and install the new engines. Why the hell would we want MKI and 35? IAf specifically wants two seaters while 35 is single seater. MRCA deal should go to the engine thats selected if EJ-200 then typhoon (but it has very limited ground attack capability, ironically MRCA was meant to have 7 new squadrons of a/c for nuke strike role) or *shudder* F-18 shornet

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 17 Jul 2008 10:54

Only way to deal with Russians (and all others as well) wrt TOT and avoiding extortion is to insist that on any deal, some critical component of some Russian or other system, a system which is critical to their armed forces and they cannot do without, MUST be manufactured completely and solely in India.

That way, any xtortion or issues, we can threaten to withhold and cripple one of their much-needed systems as well.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 17 Jul 2008 10:58

Dmurphy wrote:I have an idea.

AFAIK, we have produced only half the MKIs that we will evetually be producing. Why not buy/produce 126 SU-35s instead of the remaining MKIs (also in lieu of Mig-35 MMRCA), on a quasi-MMRCA contract?? The maintenance, production lines shouldnt differ much from that of the MKIs.

Also, we could ask for a complete ToT on Su-35s for the engines as well.

Having said the above...the MMRCA deal can go on parallely (sans Mig-35), where we could buy the best medium weight a/c like EF or Rafale without annoying the Russians.

What says people?

Su 30MKI is muilti-role, while SU 35 (correct me if i'm worng) sounds more of a pure air superiority craft with little air-ground ability. Seems that the Russkies are manufacturing large numbers of SU35 for their air superiority needs, and several SU34s for long-range ground attack.

If so, this is contradictory to our multirole emphasis.

IAF: SU30MKI for both, RAF: SU34: long range ground, SU35: long range air-air... is this somewhat correct??

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Jul 2008 11:04

Indian purchase of Su-35 is unprobably IMHO due to different airframe . More likely Su-30MKI will be a benefitiar from different Su-35 technologies: 172S engines for Su-30MKI MLU, IRBIS's gimbal for BARS (with keeping indian parts upgraded in India), new OLS developed for Su-35, the missiles integrated with Su-35 etc.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Jul 2008 11:06

narayana wrote:Some more Nice Pics of SU-30 MKI

Krishnan i think Shiv Aroor read your post and he has taken care of the size of the Pics

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/mo ... tugal.html

But the old once are still small size

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 17 Jul 2008 16:19

rachel wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:I have an idea.

AFAIK, we have produced only half the MKIs that we will evetually be producing. Why not buy/produce 126 SU-35s instead of the remaining MKIs (also in lieu of Mig-35 MMRCA), on a quasi-MMRCA contract?? The maintenance, production lines shouldnt differ much from that of the MKIs.

Also, we could ask for a complete ToT on Su-35s for the engines as well.

Having said the above...the MMRCA deal can go on parallely (sans Mig-35), where we could buy the best medium weight a/c like EF or Rafale without annoying the Russians.

What says people?
Su 30MKI is muilti-role, while SU 35 (correct me if i'm worng) sounds more of a pure air superiority craft with little air-ground ability. Seems that the Russkies are manufacturing large numbers of SU35 for their air superiority needs, and several SU34s for long-range ground attack.

If so, this is contradictory to our multirole emphasis.

IAF: SU30MKI for both, RAF: SU34: long range ground, SU35: long range air-air... is this somewhat correct??

AFAIK, the Su-35s are just an improved version of Su 30s, which means that they too are heavy class multi-role aircrafts just like MKIs with the Su 35 differing on being single seat fighters with better radar and engines. There are few structural changes as well...Su35 has larger wingspan but is a bit shorter in height and length as compared to the MKIs (may be becuase its a single seater).

source : http://www.aviapedia.com/fighters/su-35 ... st-flanker

as far as Su-34s are concerned, they are dedicated bombers with limited fighting capabilities. I guess they play the same role in RAF as the Jags and Mig-27s do in IAF.

Correct me if i'm wrong fellas.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Jul 2008 18:59

rachel wrote:
Su 30MKI is muilti-role, while SU 35 (correct me if i'm worng) sounds more of a pure air superiority craft with little air-ground ability.

Given that the primary sensor of the Su-35, i.e., the Irbis is derived from and improves upon the Bars, it will atleast have all the A2G modes which are available with the Bars, and more. Infact if you read the page which I have posted before, you will see a mention of several A2G modes for the Irbis.

I would like to agree with Igorr on the fact that while the IAF will not buy Su-35, but several of the technologies created for Su-35 / PAK-FA will find their way to an MLU'd MKI.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 17 Jul 2008 20:34

Guess I was wrong then about Su35, thx guys.

I dont like dealing with the Russians cuz I was under the impression that SU30MKI would be the most advanced Su27/30-series aircraft... and now the've developed Su35 .. which may be better... and they may go sell it to China.

Better to deal with a country whic has some restrictions on China sales. France, for example, would happily sell their own mother to the devil for money, but being part of the West I think America would put some pressure on them if they sold tried to sell their greatest Rafale version to China. This would be one advantage for us if we went for Rafale.

BTW Su34 is indeed, dedicated ground attack, and in that sense serves a similar function as Mig27, Jaguar in IAF. But it is MUCH bigger in payload, range etc..I think it's more similar to Tornado IDF or even F-111 in terms of capabilities.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Jul 2008 21:31

rachel wrote:Guess I was wrong then about Su35, thx guys.

I dont like dealing with the Russians cuz I was under the impression that SU30MKI would be the most advanced Su27/30-series aircraft... and now the've developed Su35 .. which may be better... and they may go sell it to China.

Better to deal with a country whic has some restrictions on China sales. France, for example, would happily sell their own mother to the devil for money, but being part of the West I think America would put some pressure on them if they sold tried to sell their greatest Rafale version to China. This would be one advantage for us if we went for Rafale.

France - is the most proactive to remove EU arms embargo from China. I'd not advice to connect 25 years deal with China embargo issue that probably will be resolved very soon. Also France has very active deals with Pakistan. If you are so sure China will know the Su-30 secrets, what prevents you from being sure about Pakistan to transfer Rafal (or Mirage) secrets for China?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 18 Jul 2008 01:11

About the Su-35 AFAIK the Su-35 actually is a different AirFrame (not Radically) from the Su-30MKI. Larger Wings, Larger Payload and Longer Ferry Range. True the Avionics and Engine on the MKI can be upgraded to the Su-35 however the Su-35s biggest point is a greatly reduced Radar Cross Section. The Russians atribute this to Certain Design Modifications and Plasma Stealth Technology.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 18 Jul 2008 01:49

Igorr, two reasons why:

1. France is lobbying EU to remove restrictions on CHna sales, true enough, but just the fact that they have to lobby the EU puts them ahead in my view. Russia is not part of EU and when they want to sell, they sell...they dont need any EU permission.

Altho both Russia and France are independent nations, you cannot deny that France by vitue of being Western and part of EU etc etc .. has to jump thru a few more hoops than Russia to do things.

2. Both France and US can sell advanced stuff to Pakistan, but I actually prefer that the Pakis get this stuff than China, for numerous reasons:

> Pakistan is less powerful than China and can do less with it
> Pakistan has less funds and has more trouble affording it, and even if they can buy, they'll be able to buy fewer numbers than China

3. I think Pakistan buying a few copies and xferring to China and then China cloning it ... is a more laborious and xhausting process for the Chinese,, compared to China buying TOT from Russia.

IN SUMMARY, Igorr, I dont like (a) France selling to Pakistan OR (b) Russia selling to China. In an ideal world neither would happen!

But given the choices, I prefer (a) to (b).

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 18 Jul 2008 01:54

The world is not ideal. Get used to it.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 18 Jul 2008 13:24

rachel wrote:Guess I was wrong then about Su35, thx guys.

I dont like dealing with the Russians cuz I was under the impression that SU30MKI would be the most advanced Su27/30-series aircraft... and now the've developed Su35 .. which may be better... and they may go sell it to China.

Hey,i dont think Russia will develop AC or weapons with only the chinese in their minds,they will do R & D for their own military requirements,if they came up with SU-30 1996,why do you expect them to sit idle because they already delivered the best by that time,times are changing now they have competition from f-22 and F-35,so obviously they will try to counter that,if China can buy su-35 from russians, they can sell them to us also,with better avionics and radar as it happened to su-30 mki which is much superior to su-27's of the chinese

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 18 Jul 2008 13:36

krishnan wrote:
narayana wrote:Some more Nice Pics of SU-30 MKI

Krishnan i think Shiv Aroor read your post and he has taken care of the size of the Pics

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/mo ... tugal.html
But the old once are still small size

Hey Krishnan,Shiv is certainly reading these blogs,now he has updated old images with Hi_res ones please check now,they can be Great Wallpapers

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/hi ... icily.html

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 18 Jul 2008 19:08

I really have the daftest question on this board so please do forgive me.

Does SB115 may imply we have 115 running MKI's. I am not at all satisfied by the 48 figure. Production stands at 18 per annum since 2005 (though expected to go down). I have that from the AirPower Manual. This number continues to nag me... 18*3 =54 + 40 straight aquisition + initial 48 - Initial 48 for refurbishment comes to 94.

Help me!!

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 18 Jul 2008 19:21

MukulMohanty wrote: Does SB115 may imply we have 115 running MKI's.

No.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 18 Jul 2008 19:59

k, almost about to figure this out.. Does anyone know the serial numbers of the planes leaving for Alaska, I have SB115 knocked out.. I think the final number is 65 MKI's that we have...

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 18 Jul 2008 20:15

^Irkut spokesperson said at Farnborough that they have delivered almost 100 Flankers to India, including those built in HAL.

Russia's Irkut Busy With $4.6 Backlog

More than 100 Su-30MKI aircraft have been delivered to the Indian Air Force, including those assembled under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Forty more fighters were ordered last year, and upgrades of the Su-30MKI Phases are underway.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 18 Jul 2008 20:23

Right, so tis more than 100 that we have... Which at present makes a fairly formidable airforce in the region... Note in the article it states that the subsequent order of 40 still hasn't been serviced.

Nice to see we are on track for 2014. Plus, before the moderators get really angry (I have a habit of wrong post at the wrong place!), now can we work on the serial numbers of those sent to Alaska, let me go through the photograph's with a magnifying glass.