Su-30: News and Discussion

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 26 Dec 2012 01:45

^^ The costing explanation details for the follow-on order of 42 Super Sukhois had been earlier posted by someone in BR in great detail.

There are basically two components of this $3.77 Billion.

One is the actual cost of $1.61 Billion for the 42 Super SU-30 MKI kits, which will be assembled by HAL. Note that these 42 are not built-from-scratch in India Sukhois, but built from kits (basically screw-driven by HAL) and this does not include the cost of the engines which is being built under a separate contract (920 AL-31FP engines at Koraput)

The second part ($3.77-1.61=$2.16 Billion) is to cover two aspects-

1.The cost over-runs by HAL in building the built-from-scratch Sukhois(which resulted in the desi Sukhois costing double that of the fully imported Sukhoi from Russia) for the 140 Sukhois being built by them which is being budgeted under this contract.

2. The cost of assembling this batch of 42 Super Sukhois from the kits.

BR Gurus can correct me if i am wrong.

I will try to dig up those links, if i can.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Dec 2012 02:14

so what is the new stealth feature in the super sukhois that is not already on the RAM coatings?

aesa and engine could be a common component between pak-fa and ss.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 26 Dec 2012 02:16

NRao wrote:These 42 are for the Indian Strategic Force Command (SFC).

Sukhoi has orders for decades to come.

Niranjan, is it 42 or 40 for the SFC? I thought the other 2 were replacements for the numbers that were lost (i know that's 3 now) and only 40 (2 sqds for SFC only?). Just curious.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2012 02:24

Anurag wrote:
NRao wrote:These 42 are for the Indian Strategic Force Command (SFC).

Sukhoi has orders for decades to come.
Niranjan, is it 42 or 40 for the SFC? I thought the other 2 were replacements for the numbers that were lost (i know that's 3 now) and only 40 (2 sqds for SFC only?). Just curious.

Hi (loooooong time!) (BTW, just heard from George),

You could be right. Bottom line is that these are not just ordinary MKIs.

BTW, I was under the impression that the rest were to be upgraded at some point in time too.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 26 Dec 2012 02:40

Looong time indeed. Are you still in the same city (without mentioning it on here)? I am... We should connect....

As far as the MKI's go, yes they're not the regular MKI's but the 'super MKI's', definately pack a more powerful punch.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 26 Dec 2012 16:55

NRao wrote:
Anurag wrote:These 42 are for the Indian Strategic Force Command (SFC).

Sukhoi has orders for decades to come.
Hi (loooooong time!) (BTW, just heard from George),

If you mean GeorgeJ, then pls ask him if he's gotten over his crow-soup addiction sufficiently enough, would he care to start posting again - atleast in this favourite thread of his of "new and improved BRF".

You could be right. Bottom line is that these are not just ordinary MKIs.

BTW, I was under the impression that the rest were to be upgraded at some point in time too.

And I's under impression that these 42 (or 40) are the ones wiht the requisite structural (and electronics) upgrade, to be able to carry and fire Brahmos - am I missing something?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 26 Dec 2012 23:01

http://idrw.org/?p=16801

Letters : HAL replies to Ajai Shukla’s columns

This refers to Ajai Shukla’s column “Making the Tejas fly” (Broadsword, December 11) and his report “Rs 1,500 crore more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet target” (December 9). We are pained that he has chosen to criticise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) based on half-truths and comments made by a retired personnel.

Let us not forget that there are delays in aerospace projects worldwide. Singling out HAL is, therefore, not fair. Given the national interest involved, comments against HAL and its “monopoly” too should be taken with a pinch of salt. We can confirm that the project is under consideration for upgrade of facilities to enable HAL to ramp up its production-capacity. The benefit of the funding is not intended for the current order that HAL already has in hand, but the actual requirement will be for future orders.

It should be noted that Tejas is currently not produced to frozen designs, as it has been conceived as a concurrent design and manufacturing programme. Inputs from flight trails are utilised to refine the design of the various systems and are incorporated in builing the next aircraft. Hence, changes take place in the hardware (structure) and considerable effort is involved to absorb these modifications in the subsequent aircraft. It is not that HAL does not have the capacity for production of Tejas aircraft. The production facility is already in place and the manufacturing of LSP (Limited Seried Production) aircraft is under progress. Contrary to what is suggested, HAL and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) have cordial relations.

The writer says HAL-built Sukhois are costlier when compared to the job done in Russia. He ignores the “life-cycle costs”, though difficult to estimate at this stage, would be significantly higher if India depends on foreign suppliers in sustaining such sophisticated aircraft. After all, these Sukhois are likely to serve us, say, up to 30 years, and would need overhauling, repairs and upgrades that need to be carried out on Indian soil.

Gopal Sutar
Chief of Media Communications
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
Bangalore

Ajai Shukla’s response:
My opinion piece argues, among other things, that poor production quality erodes the Indian Air Force’s confidence in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)-built aircraft. These points are known, acknowledged internationally and accepted by credible analysts in the Indian aerospace community — the Indian Air Force, the Ministry of Defence, private sector defence companies and a growing number of people within HAL. I stand by the views expressed in my column.

The report in question is based on an official briefing by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), and multiple conversations with serving Ministry of Defence and Indian Air Force officials, who are obviously sensitive about being quoted. While rebutting nothing factual in the article, HAL wrongly says the report suggests bad blood between HAL and ADA. The report quotes ADA Director P S Subramanian to defend HAL. How does the article allege poor relations between HAL and ADA if it quotes the ADA chief defending HAL?

HAL does not deny that the Sukhois it builds are far more expensive than buying from Russia directly. Instead, it claims that building in HAL lowers the aircraft’s life-cycle costs. Actually, despite paying its workers less than Russian manufacturers, HAL is costlier in manufacturing, repair as well as overhaul. HAL also claims that delays are endemic to fighter production and, therefore, nothing need be said. In fact, HAL has long exhausted all the slack that the Ministry of Defence and Indian Air Force could cut for it. In the eyes of its customers, HAL’s delays can no longer be condoned.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Dec 2012 23:29

That is a quality reply by the reporter.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Dec 2012 00:48

maitya wrote: If you mean GeorgeJ, then pls ask him if he's gotten over his crow-soup addiction sufficiently enough, would he care to start posting again - atleast in this favourite thread of his of "new and improved BRF".

YES it is!!!! The famous GJMan.

Bandwidth being rather bad we communicate in infrequent short bursts. But it may take more than that to drag him out of hibernation.

And I's under impression that these 42 (or 40) are the ones wiht the requisite structural (and electronics) upgrade, to be able to carry and fire Brahmos - am I missing something?

Not sure - join the confused.

My impression is that these are specifically meant for strategic command - you know, they will have a structure of their own and do their own things, nothing to do with the IAF per se.

I would suspect eventually they would like many more than 40 to tug along Brahmos. Why just 40?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Dec 2012 01:15

I think the improved MTBF engine is far more needed for all new orders than the rest of things priority wise, since even without AESA, brahmos can be fired and forgotten off the target. The anti-ship variety might get more mission help however there.

We need more information on the stealth upgrade.. or is this all magic speaking and cost bumping up exercise by technical jargon?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 27 Dec 2012 09:13

NRao wrote: My impression is that these are specifically meant for strategic command - you know, they will have a structure of their own and do their own things, nothing to do with the IAF per se.

These are all IAF aircraft under the IAF command structure.

Strategic Forces Command made a proposal to the MoD about acquiring 40 nuclear capable planes, as was reported in the Hindustan Times on 12 Sep 2010.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 99141.aspx

No authority has ever confirmed that the proposal has been accepted. The resounding silence since and common sense dictates that it has been binned.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 27 Dec 2012 09:19

Interesting information:

Air Crashes of SU-30 Fighter Jets

During the previous Financial Year (FY) 2011-12 and current FY 2012-13 (up to 10.12.2012), one accident involving Su-30 MKI aircraft has taken place on 13.12.2011. No pilot / service personnel or civilian was killed in the accident. Cause of the accident was 'Human Error (Servicing)'.

Su-30 MKI aircraft fleet has not been put through any upgradation programme.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Dr. K.P. Ramalingam in Rajya Sabha today.
[the press release is dated 19 Dec 2012]

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Dec 2012 10:05

eklavya wrote:Interesting information:

Air Crashes of SU-30 Fighter Jets

During the previous Financial Year (FY) 2011-12 and current FY 2012-13 (up to 10.12.2012), one accident involving Su-30 MKI aircraft has taken place on 13.12.2011. No pilot / service personnel or civilian was killed in the accident. Cause of the accident was 'Human Error (Servicing)'.

Su-30 MKI aircraft fleet has not been put through any upgradation programme.This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Dr. K.P. Ramalingam in Rajya Sabha today.
[the press release is dated 19 Dec 2012]

So no SFC SU-30, no Aesa etc..????

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Dec 2012 23:49

No authority has ever confirmed that the proposal has been accepted. The resounding silence since and common sense dictates that it has been binned.[/quote

How much do we know about the sfc in total? I don't think we will get to know anything about their assets in the forseeable future

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Dec 2012 00:57

eklavya wrote:
NRao wrote: My impression is that these are specifically meant for strategic command - you know, they will have a structure of their own and do their own things, nothing to do with the IAF per se.
These are all IAF aircraft under the IAF command structure.

Strategic Forces Command made a proposal to the MoD about acquiring 40 nuclear capable planes, as was reported in the Hindustan Times on 12 Sep 2010.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 99141.aspx

No authority has ever confirmed that the proposal has been accepted. The resounding silence since and common sense dictates that it has been binned.

Do not know about common (I have a deficiency of that), but any sense should actually tell us that the chances of it being "binned" is rather low.

The SFC is under the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) and as far as I can tell it is the NCA that is in-charge of delivering nukes.

The current deliverer of air based nukes is the IAF. The SFC was trying to make a case that this responsibility be shifted to the SFC. As part of this transfer the SFC wanted to "own" the the proposed MKIs. Thus the "mini air force".

The silence on the part of the MoD/GoI I welcome - the less we know the better. However,"binned"? I am not willing to go that far. What it suggests to me is that the MoD has either transferred that authority to the SFC and not told us about it (which is OK) OR that they have not transferred that authority - that the nukes would be delivered by the IAF - and not told us about that either.

But, I for one find it very hard to believe that India will not build a MKI based nuke delivery system. "binned" does go against my senses, for what it is worth. For there is really no better air platform that can beat the MKI for delivering a nuke to our friends up north - one present that they cannot decline.

I still think these 40 are for the purpose of delivering nukes. SFC or IAF, I cannot say.

But no matter what these 40 (IMHO of course) will be used by the IAF (perhaps), but under the command of the SFC-NCA.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 28 Dec 2012 01:44

The last batch of 40 Su-30 MKI will arrive by 2017/18. NCA and SFC are operational today. By 2017/18, the IAF inventory will also include the Rafale and the upgraded Mirage-2000. IAF operates all platforms. Flexibility is key.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Dec 2012 02:28

HAL's Sukhoi manufacturing facilities is expanding... methinks the production rate is also being ramped-up, the same facilities would be used in future for FGFA/PAK-FA. see the spanking new "Painting Hangar" in Nashik.
http://www.hal-india.com/HAL-CONNECT/HA ... %20-44.pdf
see the 10th page of the HAL Connect Mag. Of late this magazine offers an excellent insight into happenings inside HAL.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Dec 2012 00:17

From what I understand, the concept of control when it comes to SFC works something like this - each service has its contribution to the SFC and manages the same for the SFC...take for example, the Missile Regiments of the IA which are part of the SFC. Manned by IA but under the COMMAND AND CONTROL of the SFC...they will move around (for the sake of better word) as per the requirement of SFC.

So, if pertinent body in GOI thinks that India needs dedicated 40-odd long range fighters of Su-30 MKI class to serve as platform of air-delivered nuclear weapons, MOD will move to provide IAF with these platforms. These will serve as IAF's contribution to the SFC and be outside the normal tasking order chain. I think this is a good move....allows for clarity, well defined C&C chain, manpower and logistic planning etc. IAF will not need to use the regular squadrons for this job.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2012 02:23

rohitvats wrote:From what I understand, the concept of control when it comes to SFC works something like this - each service has its contribution to the SFC and manages the same for the SFC...take for example, the Missile Regiments of the IA which are part of the SFC. Manned by IA but under the COMMAND AND CONTROL of the SFC...they will move around (for the sake of better word) as per the requirement of SFC.

So, if pertinent body in GOI thinks that India needs dedicated 40-odd long range fighters of Su-30 MKI class to serve as platform of air-delivered nuclear weapons, MOD will move to provide IAF with these platforms. These will serve as IAF's contribution to the SFC and be outside the normal tasking order chain. I think this is a good move....allows for clarity, well defined C&C chain, manpower and logistic planning etc. IAF will not need to use the regular squadrons for this job.

That would be my understanding too.

However, if you check older articles there was a clear mention of a "mini air force" implying that the SFC wanted clear control over these planes.

The question I have is are all IA Missile Regiments "SFC capable" (nuke)?

Not all MKI would fall under the same umbrella. Clearly these 40 would be "more" capable than he remaining - as far as we can tell right now. So, IF indeed there was a request from the SFC to place these 40 under them I can see the reason why.

I am fairly confident that that request has not been granted.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 31 Dec 2012 15:20

rohitvats wrote:From what I understand, the concept of control when it comes to SFC works something like this - each service has its contribution to the SFC and manages the same for the SFC...take for example, the Missile Regiments of the IA which are part of the SFC. Manned by IA but under the COMMAND AND CONTROL of the SFC...they will move around (for the sake of better word) as per the requirement of SFC.

So, if pertinent body in GOI thinks that India needs dedicated 40-odd long range fighters of Su-30 MKI class to serve as platform of air-delivered nuclear weapons, MOD will move to provide IAF with these platforms. These will serve as IAF's contribution to the SFC and be outside the normal tasking order chain. I think this is a good move....allows for clarity, well defined C&C chain, manpower and logistic planning etc. IAF will not need to use the regular squadrons for this job.

It makes sense to have dedicated units to SFC to ensure that formation works as a unit when the balloon goes up. The air force should rotate the units though, so in the end you have a wide range of aircraft and people trained in the nuclear mission.

The SFC is a tri service command on lines of ANC where the services only contribute their assets and people. Command lies with SFC while other operations (spares, staffing etc) will be via parent arm.

My gut feeling is that AFS Gwalior/Maharajpur is where the air force component of the SFC will work from.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2012 16:39

The air force should rotate the units though, so in the end you have a wide range of aircraft and people trained in the nuclear mission.

Therein lies the problem. When it comes to the MKI - it seems to me - there are but two squadrons out for the SFC purpose. What is there to rotate? Unless they assign one squadron for SFC and rortate between the two.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jan 2013 17:50

The IAF would have seconded couple of birds from different SQs across the board for SFC, these flights would be dedicated for Flower delivery, easier to hide... Just increase the # of birds in couple of SQs and hide them. Periodically these birds can meet up at a watering hole and practice...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jan 2013 21:52

Are all MKIs nuke capable?

IF so, what is so diff about these 40? Or will some of the others will be upgraded down the line?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Jan 2013 22:57

NRao wrote:<SNIP>However, if you check older articles there was a clear mention of a "mini air force" implying that the SFC wanted clear control over these planes.

That is what it would look like. The air-component from IAF would be under the Command, if not absolute control, of the SFC. It is the SFC which will decide on the operational employment of this component - and a clear organizational structure and SOP under the IAF will convert this employment into movement on the ground. So, for all practical purpose, these 40 a/c (if being purchased for SFC) would be SFC's mini air-force to carry out specific task(s)

The question I have is are all IA Missile Regiments "SFC capable" (nuke)?

From what I understand - apart from Brahmos, all other missile regiments have strategic purpose and perforce, come under the SFC. They are IA's contribution to the SFC. <SNIP>

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Jan 2013 23:47

Is it just my wishful thinking or can we guess that our n' warhead number could be around 500 now.

If we go by 50 Agnis each, series Agni 1 to Agni 5 we will have 250 Agni missiles for nuke delivery , then 100 Shaurya missiles comes to 350 warheads. Suppose we have 250 Prithvis and 100 Prithvis are nuke-warhead-fitted, while rest have non-nuclear warheads. The warhead numbers comes to 450. Another 40 warheads for Sukhois , would mean 490 warheads?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 02 Jan 2013 01:19

No one is going to tell you the real number. Why ask. Let the people make their own guesses.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Jan 2013 21:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:Is it just my wishful thinking or can we guess that our n' warhead number could be around 500 now.

If we go by 50 Agnis each, series Agni 1 to Agni 5 we will have 250 Agni missiles for nuke delivery , then 100 Shaurya missiles comes to 350 warheads. Suppose we have 250 Prithvis and 100 Prithvis are nuke-warhead-fitted, while rest have non-nuclear warheads. The warhead numbers comes to 450. Another 40 warheads for Sukhois , would mean 490 warheads?

We do not have 50 Agni Vs, let alone IIIs and IVs, total # of Agnis should be between 150-170. Methinks currently all Prithvis are part of our No-Clear Detergent... again I am a Mango Abdul of the street.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Jan 2013 03:14

India repurchase build a strong Air Force Su 30 MKI
Jinku Lin

Chinese Need translation

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2013 04:35

What brings the super sukhois scaring the chippanda nation is this:

1. Brahmos
2. likely KS172 & astra
3. Brimstone
4. Meteor
5. AESA

Will have the Su-35 skin changes?
CFC
AoA 120*
new FBW (dunno what they fixed/added)
117S engine
Rearward active radar
OLS 50 hopefully

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Jan 2013 09:31

India need to seen present version of SU35 which said to be more advanced than MKI and we either need to have MKI varsion of that or make our 30 the upgrades needed like engine etc. Russia needs money and offering 35 to Chipanda can not be ruled out.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 11 Jan 2013 10:45

Narayana Rao wrote:India need to seen present version of SU35 which said to be more advanced than MKI and we either need to have MKI varsion of that or make our 30 the upgrades needed like engine etc. Russia needs money and offering 35 to Chipanda can not be ruled out.

i think it is unlikely that russia will sale su-35 to china since they will definitely reverse engineer it. another factor is the 117 engine. china will opt to use its clones on their super duper j's.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 11 Jan 2013 12:04

Sorry wrong thread. Reposted in Missiles thread.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 27 Jan 2013 14:25

Was speaking to one of my relatives who works with MRF and he told me that they've started making tires for MKI and he expects the FGFA tyre contract as well. He says from the tech standpoint there isn't much complexity involved. Great news i felt!
Cheers!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jan 2013 01:55

raghuk wrote:Was speaking to one of my relatives who works with MRF and he told me that they've started making tires for MKI and he expects the FGFA tyre contract as well. He says from the tech standpoint there isn't much complexity involved. Great news i felt!
Cheers!

Originally Dunlop was supposed to make it in their WB plant, thanks for labour trouble, the whole plant was shut down. hopefully our red brethren done cause a similar fate to MRF. All the best to MRF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2013 14:09

From IAF interview to Force magazine on Su-30MKI program

What numbers of Su-30MKI will the IAF now acquire; how many will come from Russia and be assembled by HAL? Is there a possibility of getting more Su-30MKI given the delays in LCA Mk-II programme?

The delivery of the 230 Su-30MKI aircraft, which have already been contracted for, are progressing as per schedule. In December 2012, we have signed a contract for an additional procurement of 42 Su-30MKI. Out of these 42 aircraft, 14 will be delivered by Russia and remaining 28 will be manufactured by HAL. Presently, there are no plans of procuring additional Su-30MKI aircraft over and above the ones mentioned earlier.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 03 Feb 2013 16:04

Acharya wrote:[youtube]
India repurchase build a strong Air Force Su 30 MKI
Jinku Lin

Chinese Need translation

Some of the characters appear to be Japanese. They may be happy over this purchase

wig · Post by **wig** » 06 Feb 2013 09:39

Sukhoi set to become ‘Super Sukhoi’

India is in talks with Russia to upgrade the Sukhoi-30-MKI fighters with latest radars, avionics and killer missiles and will carry a rather high-sounding name “Super Sukhoi”.

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall NAK Browne today said “talks are on with Russia on the Super Sukhoi”. The latest lot of 42 for which an agreement was signed on December 24 will not be the upgraded class, the IAF Chief added while answering queries on the sidelines of an Aero-India function. There are 230 Sukhois in the IAF inventory and another 42 were added when Russian President Vladimir Putin visited India.

The plan is to upgrade the first 80 Su-30MKIs to the level ‘Super Sukhois’ which will have highly advanced radars and weapon systems, sources said.

Sukhoi-30 MKIs have been inducted into IAF in four phases with licenced production having started in India in 2001. Though there has been speculation as to the signing of the upgrade contract, the IAF chief clarified that some issues were still to be finalised.

The initial plan is to integrate more than the 290-km range BrahMos Cruise missile. A long-range cruise missile will also be added other than the BrahMos. This will be for range of about 350 km and a request for information (RFI) was issued late last year for procuring such a weapon system from global suppliers.

The aircraft would also have the highly-advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) named the ‘Zhuk-AESA’ Radar system. This can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode and engage six targets simultaneously in attack mode.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130206/nation.htm#3

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Feb 2013 18:19

So the 42 new ones will not have the upgraded radars. So why get 18 of these built in Russia and 24 by HAL?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 07 Feb 2013 18:27

May be for support of Brahmos, atleast ground work done ...........so they are not required to sent back when Brahmos A-A support is available..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Feb 2013 18:28

good question.. is it chewing strategy or technology drawing time to become mature as it could be AESA is under used of its potential., or net centric adaption? dunno what they talk, but it is definitely not good to reveal to DDM that it is not super sukhoi version.. then might as well wait till they are ready. what is all this Putin-MMS masala I don't understand.