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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011 04:51 
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Kartik wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Can't do a direct comparision between F-15 , SU-30 and Mig 29. If you see the F-15 its Intakes are in the side of the body and lead straight to engines. With SU-30 and Mig-29, intakes are below the body and do a vertical S before going to the engine.

Offcourse No Western source will talk about this disadvantage of the F-15.


What vertical S are you talking about ?

[img*]http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory.org/pix/Su-30MKI_intake_FOD_mesh.jpg[/img]

The picture shown above is a Su-30MKI's intake as seen from the front.

Its literally slam bang in the line of sight of a person peering into the intake. If any fighter needed a radar blocker, it is the Su-27 and its derivatives.

ha ha ha ... this is epic slam dunk


Last edited by Rahul M on 14 Dec 2011 11:27, edited 1 time in total.
do not quote pics.


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011 04:53 
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^^nothing to laugh about. We are going to have to address that somehow in the Super-30 upgrade.


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011 04:55 
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nachiket wrote:
^^nothing to laugh about. We are going to have to address that somehow in the Super-30 upgrade.


I am laughing at amazing confidence people talking about things which are far from reality.. I mean the fact is so direct opposite to the quoted fact .. that it sounds funny to me...


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011 20:31 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
Image

above is on a ANG F-15A/B :oops:

both the F15 and su27 family seem to have a moveable rectangular panel on the roof of the intake and hinges down to constrict the airflow as the plane goes more supersonic. for both of them the initial part of tunnel is slightly sloped downward...you can see the start of the downslope in above pic...I think thats about where the F-18 E/F has the radar blocker vane system.


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011 22:40 
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You either has a Low RCS or you dont , there is no middle ground so even if Su-30MKI has all the radar blockers and RAM in the world , it wont lead you much far becuase it misses the crucial shape and most importantly it carries external payload which can even spoil the RCS of carefully crafted LO aircraft.

So all the fantasy of Low RCS for Super-30 , F-18 , Euro Bird etc are just good marketing stuff , in real combat they would be betrayed by too many things.

Its similar to a dark lady trying to look fair with a good make up , a good make up can just take you that far becuase the real thing is still dark.


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 02:25 
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Austin wrote:
You either has a Low RCS or you dont , there is no middle ground so even if Su-30MKI has all the radar blockers and RAM in the world , it wont lead you much far becuase it misses the crucial shape and most importantly it carries external payload which can even spoil the RCS of carefully crafted LO aircraft.

So all the fantasy of Low RCS for Super-30 , F-18 , Euro Bird etc are just good marketing stuff , in real combat they would be betrayed by too many things.

Its similar to a dark lady trying to look fair with a good make up , a good make up can just take you that far becuase the real thing is still dark.


I don't agree with you here Austin. The Su-30MKI's RCS is one of its weaknesses and while it isn't possible to entirely redesign it to make it LO, the is some benefit to be gained from reducing its RCS further. If the radar blocker helps the Su-30MKI be detected say 10-15 NM later than it would be earlier, its an advantage. After all, compressor face is one of the biggest radar reflectors and possibly one of the big contributors to the MKI's RCS.


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 02:58 
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blunt edges needs serrations and zig zag slants too.
The blade design could also reduce RCS.
S-inlet is the way to go like in pak-fa/Ef2k.
There are many areas for serrations

but RAM coating is still required. I am for all Kevlar/composite
skins where the deflection is internally handled.
http://www.gizmag.com/new-nano-fiber-to ... lar/17203/

--
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec ... =ADA343828
This paper gives some ideas how one could internally reduce RCS..


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 08:51 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
to my knowledge nobody has been able to change the compressor blade design itself to reduce RCS - the shape is either straight or slightly curved.

looking at the kind of towed rcs targets used for AA crews to practise on (and perhaps as towed wingtip decoys as well),
http://www.peostri.army.mil/PRODUCTS/TOWTARS/

seems to me that biggest 360' spherical contributors to RCS could be the tailfins of plane and the fins of the external ordnance. hence the emphasis on carefully slanted/small/nonexistent tailfins in raptor/pakfa/flying wing (b2/x-planes) and on moving the external ordnance into internal bays.
the exposed compressor face will generate a return within a certain angle from the front of the plane. RAM material coated inside the tunnel has to be very resilient if they are not to ablate or peel off and get sucked into the engine causing some long term damage, but I guess everyone uses it now.

so I guess if a radar blocker could be installed infront of compressor and reduce the tracking range by X% its always a bonus even on a vanilla non-stealth design like f15/su30 as it probably generates a lot of return vs that from external munitions?


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 10:33 
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Kartik wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Can't do a direct comparision between F-15 , SU-30 and Mig 29. If you see the F-15 its Intakes are in the side of the body and lead straight to engines. With SU-30 and Mig-29, intakes are below the body and do a vertical S before going to the engine.

Offcourse No Western source will talk about this disadvantage of the F-15.


What vertical S are you talking about ?

[img*]http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory.org/pix/Su-30MKI_intake_FOD_mesh.jpg[/img]

The picture shown above is a Su-30MKI's intake as seen from the front.

Its literally slam bang in the line of sight of a person peering into the intake. If any fighter needed a radar blocker, it is the Su-27 and its derivatives.


Thanks for correcting my wrong impression, I was wrong in this case , not having access to aircraft first hand.


Last edited by Rahul M on 14 Dec 2011 11:28, edited 1 time in total.
do not quote pics.


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 10:56 
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Kartik wrote:
I don't agree with you here Austin. The Su-30MKI's RCS is one of its weaknesses and while it isn't possible to entirely redesign it to make it LO, the is some benefit to be gained from reducing its RCS further. If the radar blocker helps the Su-30MKI be detected say 10-15 NM later than it would be earlier, its an advantage. After all, compressor face is one of the biggest radar reflectors and possibly one of the big contributors to the MKI's RCS.


From what I have read they have applied RAM to the blade of RCS to reduce its visibility also there was this experiment done by ITAE to reduce RCS of Flanker , you must have read this before link
Quote:
ITAE researchers had found materials that solved the dominant problem in the Sukhoi design: straight-through inlets to the compressor face, with no line-of-sight blockage. Rather than placing an absorber-treated blocker in front of the engine, as on the Super Hornet, ITAE developed a radar absorbent material (RAM) that could be applied to the first-stage compressor blades. The rest of the RAM suite included a metallic treated canopy and sprayed-on RAM coatings on the missiles.


Having said that most effort for RCS reduction on existing type has been measured for clean aircraft rather then a loaded one , so a Flanker with RCS reduction Clean will have difference RCS value then a loaded one.

Hence the actual value of such rcs reduction with combat payload against modern radars like BARS ,RBE2 and modern AESA types is truly debatable , its a good marketing strategy though to sell 4th Gen Aircraft with RCS reduction features .... considering most countries cannot develop or may not get or may not afford a true LO designed aircraft.


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 11:08 
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011 11:34
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why the tyre is flat? is it worn out? how safe is it to use such a grip-less tyre? or do they use such tyres purposefully


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 13:27 
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Kartik Austin has a point ; even if you go by the elementary radar range equation the detection range only varies as 4th root of RCS (rest of the variables being same ). So change from 15m^2 frontal RCS to say 5m^2 frontal RCS will not reduce the detection range by much.


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 13:37 
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Location: Ya kundendu tushar haar dhavala ..
Slick tire provides maximum traction on a dry and even surface like a concrete/asphalt . Even formula 1 cars and other racing sport use slick tires unless conditions are wet .


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 15:07 
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adityadange wrote:
why the tyre is flat? is it worn out? how safe is it to use such a grip-less tyre? or do they use such tyres purposefully


What tyre? I don't see any tyre on this page. Must have worn out fully maybe? Oh! Just saw it :D


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PostPosted: 07 Dec 2011 15:46 
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^^i was referring to the sukhoi tyre in the pic above showing its air intake.


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 14:13 
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Third Su-30mki crash today, reported just minutes ago near pune in Kashnand village, both pilots safe !


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 14:21 
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News confirmed :(( :((

IAF’s Sukhoi 30 MKI crashes near Pune , Both Pilot eject safely


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 14:22 
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Indian Air force SU-30 MKI crashes in Pune


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 18:25 
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Thanks god. The pilots are safe.


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 18:49 
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self deleted.


Last edited by Prabu on 14 Dec 2011 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 18:50 
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why are you posting irrelevant news items in threads ?


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 21:54 
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Image

IAF personnel inspect the debris of the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter.


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 23:21 
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Thank God the pilots are safe. :)
But really whats up with IAF recently. :x :shock:


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2011 23:25 
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relax.. until investigations are out, don't flare up on the services.

The first link said, the first failure was FBW, and the second one with Engine. So hang on to get to know what is up with this crash.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 00:40 
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IN PHOTOS: Sukhoi-30 fighter plane crashes near Pune - Rediff

Image
Image
Image
Image


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 01:08 
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Can anyone post the flight safety article of the incident when the Su30 engine caught fire but pilots were able to land safely.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 01:12 
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Do we know if it was a home-built aircraft or acquired from Russia? If it was FBW or engine failure,it could be quality control.Anyway,the wreckage has been recovered so the fault should be easy to identify,since the pilots too are safe.

In the Ind.aviation thd., I've given a few details of a DTI report on IRST becoming the new "AESA" of the next decade,as current advances in radar jamming/EW are tending to cancel out advantages between stealth and non-stealth aircraft and such "low observable" situs,resulting in RF "draws" herald a return to close-combat advantages,which may prove decisive in future battle scenarios.Here IRST dev. with Russian systems having a "100 km range" give an advantage.

There was a pic of a Super-Flanker with a flush internal weapons bay between the engine intake trunking and slightly altered intake shapes too,posted some time ago in a thread.It might be worthwhile to revisit the pic. and examine the details in the light of above RCS debate.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 01:17 
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tsarkar wrote:
Can anyone post the flight safety article of the incident when the Su30 engine caught fire but pilots were able to land safely.


http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 18#p952318


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 05:08 
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From the above pics, the more rounder and solid the part, the more it survived (relative destruction). round and hollow cylindrical parts were torn apart.

so, for future designers, the thought could be : the hollow fuselage strengthening could focus on strengthening along the cylindrical design. again, we have no idea on the weights- kevlar composites are a fine option for such strengthening.

but, when it comes usability, is it really required is another question.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 08:35 
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Early investigations indicate failure of fly-by-wire, due to which pilots lost control of the aircraft and ejected. This was also the case with the first accident of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI in 2009.
The point is did IAF not managed to rectify the fly-by-wire problem uptil now. :-?


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 11:03 
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IAF grounds Sukhoi till 'precautionary checks' over

Quote:
The pilots ensured the crashing jet would not cause casualties on the ground, said Lohegaon airbase chief, Air Commodore V R Chaudhari.

Added another senior officer, "The Sukhois have not been grounded...But yes, they will undergo some systematic technical checks now before they take to the skies again. The multi-role fighters have had a great safety track-record."

................

"There was no engine failure or `flame-out'. It seems the pilots lost the controls of the fighter, leaving them with no option but to undertake planned ejection," said an officer.


The main reason behind one of the two earlier Sukhoi crashes in 2009 was attributed to the FBW system (the other was due to "a fuel leak"), which led to summoning of Russian engineers to probe the crash and the entire Sukhoi fleet being grounded for three weeks.

Later, it emerged that one of the pilots had accidentally switched off the FBW system, located behind him in the cockpit, while trying to change the radar mode from one frequency to another.

"It was a combination of pilot error and a design flaw in the FBW system master-switch. Since then, all Sukhois have been modified to add a safety guard to prevent the accidental switching off of the FBW system," he said.



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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 11:09 
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SagarAg Ji you need to report to Kavecomplex 72 for re-education by Bose mullah.

How on earth can IAF/HAL or their grandfather fix FBW for the MKI? Do they ahve the source code ? Even if they have it, do they know what was wrong ? Do they have the designer amongst them to debug? Do you think BRDs can fix FBW problems ?This is the problem with phoren maal. So please stop ranting about how IAF could have fixed it. Btw i remember reading somewhere that how the designer(Rosoboron/Sukhoi knaapo) tends to always blame the end user(or his cleanliness :)) even when the fault is in the design. This also happened in the case of Jaguar(case of SDRE engineer Shri Jayaram fixing fluid leak) and was never acknowledged by BAC


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 11:31 
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not only was it not acknowledged, BAe applied the desi solutions to the worldwide fleet and refused any IP rights.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 11:37 
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suryag wrote:
SagarAg Ji you need to report to Kavecomplex 72 for re-education by Bose mullah.

How on earth can IAF/HAL or their grandfather fix FBW for the MKI? Do they ahve the source code ? Even if they have it, do they know what was wrong ? Do they have the designer amongst them to debug? Do you think BRDs can fix FBW problems ?This is the problem with phoren maal. So please stop ranting about how IAF could have fixed it. Btw i remember reading somewhere that how the designer(Rosoboron/Sukhoi knaapo) tends to always blame the end user(or his cleanliness :)) even when the fault is in the design. This also happened in the case of Jaguar(case of SDRE engineer Shri Jayaram fixing fluid leak) and was never acknowledged by BAC



By fixing it I meant, did they contacted the manufacturer or designer or who so ever concerned with fixing the FBW problem. I dont think they would have done nothing to take up the matter with concerned authorities.

On a side note I never underestimate our IAF/HAL. As the case pointed by you :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 13:00 
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FBW failure? Must be Indian software coolies :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 13:26 
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kmkraoind wrote:
IAF grounds Sukhoi till 'precautionary checks' over

"There was no engine failure or `flame-out'. It seems the pilots lost the controls of the fighter, leaving them with no option but to undertake planned ejection," said an officer.
[/quote]

:) Was FI the only one blaming the engine?


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 13:41 
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Rahul M wrote:
not only was it not acknowledged, BAe applied the desi solutions to the worldwide fleet and refused any IP rights.


For nanhas who never read the excellent article on the incident being referred to: A Tale of two Hydraulic Systems

The author (now departed) is our very own Dr.Pisko's cousin. :mrgreen: And in case you think he was some manual wielding geek babu, he won his Vir Chakra for action during the Battle of Longewala.

suryag, Kave Kamplex 72 is for good mujahids onlee. Bad mujahids (who moan about IAF's lack of maintainence of gora-owned FBW software) need to report to Kave Kamplex 420 for le-education.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 18:46 
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the first Sukhoi loss was due to Human Error. The pilot switched off the FBW trying to switch off something else and the ac went out of control. There was a report that went into the causes etc at that time. The 'fix' would have been to make switching off the FBW in flight impossible or difficult - that shouldnt have been much difficult to achive


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 19:25 
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Switching off FBW should not lead to a crash and the aircraft becomes totally uncontrollable. If it is done inadvertently, then the design should give a tacit/sound warning immediately and engage the pilot on his own, making his senses realize there is no FBW, and he can't do the regular flying stunts.

That is the not the case here.. the pilots did try to navigate the plane, but did not succeed. So, the first hand info is that it is not an accidental switch off!

Now coming to the design, why in the world one wants to have FBW engagement by a switch.. this itself means, that the designer is not confident about the working of the FBW, and thought about providing an alternate way to control the a/c systems.

Design Error in the first place. Now, let the firangies aim their gun at SDRE men! :x . This could be a GDF'ed inferiority complexion situation that needs to be discussed.


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2011 19:44 
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This is for the first Crash - not the rcent one.. Just to refresh memories...

http://www.stratpost.com/sukhoi-crash-c ... ilot-error

Quote:
The crash of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft on April 30 was caused by pilot error. StratPost has learned that the cause became clear within 3-4 days after the crash itself.
Sources have informed StratPost the crash occurred due to mishandling of the Flight Control System (FCS) by the pilot, which led to the crash. While some reports indicate the pilot to have inadvertently switched off the FCS altogether, other reports are also suggesting a second error in control was made after the FCS was switched off, which led to complete loss of control. Experts on this aircraft remark it to be quite possible for the pilot to have inadvertently overridden the FCS and then mishandled the control of the aircraft, leading to the crash.


http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/27/stories ... 122000.htm

Quote:
The Court of Inquiry (CoI) that went into the crash found that the pilot, Wing Commander S. V. Munje, inadvertently switched-off the four switches that control the power supply to the computer. Switching-off the power not only cuts off the power supply to the computer, but is also irreversible. Switching them on does not ‘power on’ the all important unit.

The aircraft went into a forward bunt, lost control and crashed, killing Wing Commander P. S. Nara, an officer from the IAF’s Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI).

During the flight, the aircraft is said to have experienced a technical glitch after a round of firing practice. The pilot, who was also under routine inspection by the DASI, is said to have then tried to switch-off the armament master switches, which are located just behind the pilot’s seat and in close proximity to the switches that control power to the flight control computer.

Though the CoI’s conclusion was that the crash occurred due to pilot error, a number of officials are questioning the placing of critical switches that are not to be used during in flight and only for power on when the aircraft is on theground in the cockpit and also, the inadequate in-built safety mechanisms like a wire lock or even a covering flap.



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