Bharat Rakshak

Apparently Truck Mounted and Tracked (BMP) 105 mm SP howtizers from OFB are targetted @ BSF. Makes sense since they are operating 105 mm guns already.

Grads saved the Lankan army's bacon too at one time in the Eelam War ,so an SL genenral told me.I like the Soviet idea of "wiping out the mountain".When ever I hear about 24 hr.,36 hr. firefight with Kashmiri infiltrators form Pak,holed up in some hideout,I cannot understand why we don't use attack helos or ATGMs,to demolish the hideout in swift time and prevent casualties from occuring on our side.Surely the troos on the ground have Carl Gustav's at least?

was this posted??



BAE Systems ready to help India build Bofors guns

$$$$$
They see dollar in this, should not happen, let local OFB build first.

Excessive force? Psy ops potential for our birader's across the border?

I see this as a clever and good thing to get the desired gun from Bofors without making the Congress tickle.

Thais are claiming they used a CAESAR successfully against Cambodian BM-21 systems.

Philip while you are positing a case of BM-21 usage when no retaliation is forseen, where no doubt a BM-21 will easily win the fight, you still need to consider that a BM-21 waiting 1 minute to put its weapon load on an area target (which could even be a bunch of decoys) may not be a good idea if the opponent has a trap set for it in the area.

Even in your Mountain Mujahid case an accurate artillery can be used quite effectively with the trees adding their own splinters in the hideout area. In fact even a low charge big shell firing should work well and be discreet enough.

A nubie question on OFB, FH77B.

How has the 45 cal OFB gun been changed to handle the bigger barrel?

I want to understand if the OFB gun can be taken to the 52 cal also, or would the changes required by too much?

[/quote]
I see this as a clever and good thing to get the desired gun from Bofors without making the Congress tickle.[/quote]

BAE has a JV with Mahindra. Why cant Mahindra bid to make a gun? That way you will get Bofors tech as well as spare the govt the Bofors ghost

X-post:

It is a Jinxed firm. JV with that would have reduced the chances that it would have been selected. OTOH OFB making that can make virtually indigenous.

Anyway the current gove already has Himalayan corruption record against it. Deals with Bofors may not cause any more harm.

pic of the Bastion yakhont system purchased by vietnam
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8641/xxxxxxen.jpg

My father once used an RCL (anti tank gun) for a similar situation.

Just because these stories do not come out does not mean they are not happening. Its just that when media people arive at a scene it is very difficult to do them.

Grads were a decisive force in the Sino-Soviet border conflict during the "split" in the communist world. One salvo of Grad rockets would wipe out so many Chinese infantry that even the "human wave" concept touting Chinese leadership fell silent.

Slovak hopes to clinch $1-b howitzer gun deal.

The Slovak Republic is hoping to clinch nearly a $ one billion deal to supply 180 howitzer gun to India Army soon.According to Mr Marian Tomasik, ambassador of the Slovak Republic to India, the deal is expected to be sealed in the coming months.

“We hope to get the howitzer gun deal from the Indian Army in the coming months,” Mr. Tomasik said at an interactive session on bilateral trade organised by the Bharat Chamber of Commerce here on Tuesday.

A howitzer is a weapon which has a short barrel and uses small propellant chargers at relatively higher trajectories.

Indian Army had earlier floated a tender for purchase of 180 (155-mm) howitzer guns. A Slovak Republic company and Germany-based Rheinmetall Defence had bid for the deal.

Defence and power would be the two key areas of focus for bilateral trade between the two countries. According to Mr. Tomasik, both Slovak and India should focus on enhancing co-operation in defence and power sectors in order to further expand the bilateral trade between the two countries.

Slovakian imports include pharmaceuticals, rubber, organic chemicals, garments, science apparatus and special machinery. It exports automobiles, oils and fertilizers, machines and spare parts. While India's total exports to Slovak Republic have grown from $36.24 million in 2006-07 to $56.78 million in 2010-11, total imports have grown from $19.81 million in 2006-07 to $88.03 million in 2010-11.

It is really a shame that India is still importing these after all these years, there should be absolutely no reason for not investing in the technology and keeping it up to date - This is the basic technology that army needs in case of war.

Things like Military diplomacy are far far away for a country that imports everything.

Going by the numbers below, two Pinaka regiments would be the following:

• 36 x launcher vehicles (2 x regiments) -> 6 x launcher vehicles each Battery; 3 batteries per regiment
• 36 x loader-cum-replenishment vehicles (2 x regiments) -> 6 x loader-cum-replenishment vehicles each Battery
• 18 x replenishment vehicles (2 x regiments) -> 3 x replenishment vehicles each Battery
• 12 x Command Post vehicle (2 x regiments) -> 2 x Command Post vehicle each Battery
• 6 x DIGICORA MET radar (2 x regiments) -> 1 x DIGICORA MET radar each Battery
• 432 x deployed rockets (2 x regiments) -> 72 x deployed rockets each Battery
• Plus Reserves -> rockets & vehicles

Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher

Thanks srai. Love the way you keep up the stats!

While every indigenous purchase is welcome, though, given our Arty situation, we could easily accommodate many times this number.

Do you know how many regiments have been operationalized so far - is it 3?

Thanks.

According to this article below, 80 x Pinaka MRBLs were ordered in March 2006. This would be equivalent to around 4 regiments as per my previous calculations, plus around 8 launchers as reserves. Together with the new 2 regiment order, this would total to at least 6 regiments by 2015 (when all deliveries likely completed).

^^^The fist Pinaka Regiment was raised in 2010 and not 2000 as given in the wiki article. That is an internet rumor that has persisted till date. What had happened in 1999 was that one of the Rocket Regiments (which employs BM-21) was earmarked as test-unit to work with DRDO on Pinaka - as was 43rd Armored for Arjun. This unit was also deployed in Kargil and Pinaka was test fired in Kargil as well.

The first two regiments had been raised in 2010 and two more were planned by 2012. There have been media reports that 3 Regiments are operational - chances are that all four are operational. These two Pinaka Regiments could be in addition to four existing units.

Questions to rohitvats:

a) What is the current composition of the Arty Divs in terms of Brigades & Regt. ratios plus the equipment they hold?

b) Are the Arty Divs a more consolidated form of the Corps Arty Brigades?

c) This is more a reconfirmation - Are there 3 Arty Divs? IIRC, it was you who had discovered based on scattered media reports regarding the same

TIA

Aparently the first 300 Pinaka rockets too were supplied by OFB only in 2008, which report also mentioned 1000 rockets per annum to be supplied from 2009 onwards. Recently we had reports suggesting a plan to raise production to 5000 pa and finally to 12000 pa.

^^
Thanks rohitvats. As always, you are surely a treasure trove of info and analysis.

My guess on the equipment composition is that most probably the gun regiments are equipped with FH77B and/or upgunned 155mm M46. Pinakas & Grads would be in a separate rocket brigade + missile group comprising of SS-150/SS-250 Prithvi and Brahmos + UAV equipped SATA regiments.

Perhaps, Prahar would follow once inducted.

Not sure if this is out of line (and pls let me know, will delete it accordingly)... I once saw a mural in an Arty Div Mess depicting a war zone with FH77B+Prithvi+Pinaka+UAV (not sure if I recall Brahmos). So either it was imagination or a depiction of the equiment currently held by that Div. Pls take it FWIW...

If I am not mistaken, the (I) Arty Brigades were a Corps or Command level resource and not AHQ. I know for sure the (I) Engineer brigade was a corps resource, so guess its the same for the (I) Arty and (I) AD Brigades

^^^Ajay, the long held belief has been that Prithvi Missile Groups were held by Arty Divisions. But over time, I have come to disregard this sentiment. IMO, Prithvi Missile Groups are part of SFC; please remember that till A-2 and A-3 came online, our deterrent consisted of A-1 and Prithvi Missiles. It is only now that A-2 and A-3 have started making appearance in SFC. Plus, till date, I have not seen a single picture of Prithvi TEL in R-Day Parade or otherwise with formation sign of any of the artillery divisions. Hence, the conclusion.

On the equipment front - yes, it should be a mix of FH-77 and M-46 (up-gunned or otherwise). From what I know, there were (I) Arty Bdes AHQ. For example, 41st Arty division was raised by bringing 97(I) and then 98(I) Arty bdes under its aegis.(source: Sainik Samachar)

The Orbat of an art division could be something like this:

2 x Gun Brigades
1 x Composite Rocket Brigade
1 x Composite Missile Brigade
1 x SATA Regiment (with WLR and UAV flight)

BTW - thanks to your question, I stumbled on something I had been searching for a long time - the location of 42nd Arty Division. Well, the news item(s) say that the Division HQ was located in Alwar all this while. However, South-Western Command is shifting the Division HQ to a place close to Jaipur - the HQ of South-Western Command.

See the excerpt of the report in media:



Source: http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/India/-Artillery-Division-To-Shift-To-Bassi-Near-Jaipur-15608.html

^^
Quite possible about Prithvis with SFC. However, if A-2 and A-3 are going to be now held with SFC, then logically Prithvis would be reassigned to the Arty Divs as a battlefield weapon from its earlier strategic role

Thanks for finding out the location of the 42nd Arty Div. I thought it would have been Naseerabad (close to Ajmer) since there used to be an Inf Bde, (I) Arty Bde, (I) Engineer Bde and IIRC some Armoured/Mech Inf elements

Thanks Rohitvats.

So, even though, the Pinaka proved itself in Kargil, it took a whole decade to raise 2 regiments. Especially in light of the known artillery deficiencies, which was also brought out during Kargil. This is downright criminal.

^^
Criminal on whose part?

On the Prithvi front - I think some sort of CBM will be required where we openly declare that Prithvi Missile Groups have been moved away from SFC and these will be used as Theater Ballistic Missiles (TBM). Otherwise, every time we move these missiles close to the border, pakees and american are going to freak out.

There is a reason why Naseerabad could not have been a location (even though my thought went in that direction) - all the formations in the area are from Southern Command. The (I) Arty Brigade you refer to is 374 Composite Artillery Brigade and which I think is the 3rd brigade of 41st Artillery Division. Scroll down on the 2nd link given below and check the formation sign on the officer's arm (Brigade Commander, 374 Composite Artillery Brigade is the Chairman of KV Naseerabad management committee)

http://kvnasirabad.org/vmc.html
http://kvnasirabad.org/photogallery.html

Mech Infantry is from 340(I) Mechanized Brigade under 12 Corps.

^^
Man... Thats some research...!! Hats off to u

Thanks....all you need to do is spend (waste, depending on who you ask ) looking for bits and pieces of information on the net and try reach a conclusion. Sainik Samachar is a good source for such nuggets of information. It is online and free of cost.

Prem, nothing was proved in 1999. It took DRDO till 2008 to perfect the system. And once it was done, order were immediately placed for 2 regiment worth of systems and sub-systems.

A PSU and a high tech East European powerhouse. Now we're cookin with gas!!

Premkumar ji, the gaps in Tube Arty cannot be filled by Rocket Arty. I also believed in using one in lieu of other but the costs & delivery vehicle weights are just apples and oranges.

42 kg 155 mm shell is i think 5000 Rupees a pop for 25-30-35 km range with just a change in the Cal.
18-20 kg 122 mm BM-21 shell was 25000/- a pop about twenty years back for a 20.4 km range flat.

both dumb of course. But notice that TCS makes these cost comparisons go bonkers. So the real deal, if you actually insist on replacing one with the other, is guidance not the numbers, that too only in a role requiring accuracy. The requirement for numbers (Tube) can only be filled up by Tube.

Having just 4 pinaka regiments is way too less considering grads are getting old. Certainly the army needs more than 72 of the kind if they are serious about the two front theory.

This holds for a host of other systems too but, I have always felt we should have more numbers here specially with the home grown product around.

Grad should not ideally be replaced by Pinaka entirely. Just as in tube Arty, rocket Arty also needs light, medium, heavy mix. the Grads are very effective short range rockets. More importantly a Grad launcher carries a lot of them. Yes, we could modernize it but overall, it can add punch while on the move. The Pinaka on the other hand can gradually replace the Smerch, after a long range rocket (not counting Prahaar) comes into play.

Same way for tube, we would need the 105 and 155/45 to play different roles.

BM 21 on Tata truck
http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/media/video/grade-bm-21-lpta2038.swf

Are they being upgraded or only the truck is being replaced?

That chassis is flexing a lot. Will that not have effect on accuracy ?