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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 07:44 
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i have one question on artillery ..........if india can manufacture the guns for m77 indian version that means that they can mount it on wheeled tata or tracked arjun chassis and have a 45 caliber 155 mm mobile gun and can also revisit on bhim which has been stopped after daniel was blacklisted..... just change the gun and if i am not wrong the caliber represents the length of the barrel is it ...... some oldies please enlighten me on this.......


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 09:36 
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This tit-bit was buried in another headlined article.

Quote:
...

Meanwhile, commenting on the assurance by the Indian Army to place an order for 140 numbers of 155 mm, 52 calibre howitzers — currently under development at city’s ARDE— if proven in field trials, Saraswat said, “The decision has come three days back. ARDE, Pune has been working on the design for the past one year. The designs are in a review stage and users as well as Quality Assurance agencies are being involved in the process. It is a national program and private industries will be involved in the development of sub systems and components. We are trying to bring in the best gun system. Two prototypes will be developed and tested. It should take about 6- 7 years for the development.

...


So looks like the indigenous 155mm 52 calibre howitzers will be ready in 2018/19.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 09:46 
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Location: "There is no greater weapon than a prepared mind."
By that time some company from XYZ country will be ready to sell it to us and we will be back to square one...testing testing....more testing...even more testing...and they will ask for some capability that will take another few years to develop and test...so even by 2020 it wont be inducted


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 13:42 
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Heavy Artillery battalion moved to LoC as Pak shells Poonch posts again
SOURCE: Tribune india

Quote:
Pakistani troops today violated ceasefire for the fourth time in the last five days and pounded Indian posts along the Line of Control (LoC) with mortar shells in Poonch district, promoting the Army to move an artillery battalion to forward posts in Krishna Ghati (KG) sector.

Reliable sources told The Tribune that an artillery battalion has been moved from Mendhar to effectively check possible infiltration attempts by militants from across the border besides dealing with frequent “misadventures of a hostile neighbour.”

The fresh violation, 16th this year, resulted in injuries to Sepoy Kundan Singh of 3 Grenadiers.

“Last night, around 10.15 pm, Pakistani troops opened heavy fire on our posts in KG sector using mortars and automatic weapons. Initially, the intensity was low but from 11.15 onwards, they started firing mortars, forcing us to give them an effective response,” said an Army spokesperson. The exchange of fire continued till 12.30 am.

At least 12 Indian posts were targeted by 653 Mujahid Regiment of the Pak Rangers, who used rocket launchers, heavy machine gun and UBGL grenades, said official sources. “Pak Rangers opened fire from Daku, Battal, Roza and Pimple posts opposite KG sector,” they added. The Pakistani troops have so far violated the truce four times since June 13 resulting in killing of two soldiers Lance Naik Harvinder Singh and BSF jawan PK Mishra. Three soldiers have been injured.

“In the last five days, Pakistani troops have been continuously targeted our forward posts. Therefore, the Army, which exercised maximum restraint to de-escalate the situation, has now moved an artillery battalion from Mendhar to forward posts in KG sector,” revealed sources.

Yesterday, the Pak Rangers had refused to attend a crucial flag meeting at Chakan-da-Bagh trade point.

According to sources, the Pakistan Army and the ISI have moved militants very close to the LoC with an aim to help them cross over to the Indian side. However, they have not succeeded and were targeting forward Indian posts in sheer frustration.



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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 14:16 
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Is it just a coincidence , Paki's have started this firing after the meeting on Siachin failed(india didn't give any concession to Pakis)


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 14:51 
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wilson_th wrote:
Is it just a coincidence , Paki's have started this firing after the meeting on Siachin failed(india didn't give any concession to Pakis)


No it is not! They are plain desperate, the window for pushing in militants is closing fast without any success so far. And getting Siachen on a platter for free has also been illusive, so in frustration, the pigs are doing such things. Heavy handed response to such incidents would teach them a lesson not to repeat it, but the govt of today is in no mood to escalate with their peace dreams! So the IA has to give only prompt/effective response and hope for deescalation.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 15:11 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
why do u say the window is closing. the snows would have melted in higher reaches only in last week of may...there is time until september for sure...


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 17:26 
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Singha,

Traditionally, the infiltration attempts concentrate through June-July-August, or so I had learned, because the militants would be waiting patiently for the snow to melt and then try rushing in. Already July has come with no major successes and all is calm in Kashmir. Desperation is mounting. Anyways, off topic for here, I guess we can move this to another thread.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 20:22 
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Why is Krishna Ghati SS always the focal point in LoC ceasefire violation?


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 20:45 
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^^^

The other explanation might be that the TSPA wants a bogy of IA to the east in order to rally the faith fools.


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2012 10:30 
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Quote:
...

Meanwhile, commenting on the assurance by the Indian Army to place an order for 140 numbers of 155 mm, 52 calibre howitzers — currently under development at city’s ARDE— if proven in field trials, Saraswat said, “The decision has come three days back. ARDE, Pune has been working on the design for the past one year. The designs are in a review stage and users as well as Quality Assurance agencies are being involved in the process. It is a national program and private industries will be involved in the development of sub systems and components. We are trying to bring in the best gun system. Two prototypes will be developed and tested. It should take about 6- 7 years for the development.

...


So If DRDO proves its gun after hundrreds of trials then it will get order for 140 guns out of requirement of 5000 guns, great!


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2012 11:25 
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The merry go round continues ..def min needs 6 sigma and lean


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2012 19:13 
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The procurement mafia will not allow any local products to succeed in IA.


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2012 21:21 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
each project must also employ Agile, have a daily scrum, monthly iterative demos to users starting with the wheels and working up to the barrel, have a failsafe datacenter for development data, and employ big data analytics to identify synergies and opportunities for phased QIP.
summarized here http://professionalsuperhero.com/


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PostPosted: 20 Jun 2012 22:17 
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vic, The low number(140) is to setup the tooling and proofing the fabrication process. The two prototypes are for development and testing. Then comes the factory production batch. After that the regular production. Note the low number is contingent on successful trials.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2012 08:35 
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After successful trials order of 140 does not make sense. I can understand 140 before trials but after trials it has to be something like 2000


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2012 21:36 
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No. The trials are with development units. If successful a small number is ordered to set up the tooling and factory production line. Sort of production qualification orders. After that comes the full scale production orders. And it might be an annual qty and not for the full numbers at one fell swoop.


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PostPosted: 21 Jun 2012 23:33 
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krishnan wrote:
By that time some company from XYZ country will be ready to sell it to us and we will be back to square one...testing testing....more testing...even more testing...and they will ask for some capability that will take another few years to develop and test...so even by 2020 it wont be inducted


Probable! If we can guess how the 'system' going to react, then those who intimately associated with such developments can take certain steps to mitigate such outcome.

Three years back, chaiwalla news is that they can come up with a gun in short possible time. Once OFB start making progress, just a wild guess, such a long development time could mean, the system in development will be futuristic.


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2012 10:57 
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Location: "There is no greater weapon than a prepared mind."
Its not whether OFB can come out with a good product ...its whether the user is willing to accept it....


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2012 11:22 
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krishnan wrote:
Its not whether OFB can come out with a good product ...its whether the user is willing to accept it....


Why is the production capability of OFB not an issue here?


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PostPosted: 22 Jun 2012 12:44 
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Advantages of large order are forgotten in Indian defence set up. When we know we need 200 plus systems, what is rational about a 140 system order with out commitment for 2000 units provided required parameters are met. Same kinds of small orders are given for LCA, arjun or even for naval ships. What is the use of talk for long terms planing?


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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2012 21:29 
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hope not posted before but slightly old.

THE INDIAN ARMY AND ITS ARTILLERY by DEBALINA CHATTERJEE

added later :

Artillery Modernisation : The Time for Action is Now - By Lt Gen B S Pawar (Retd)


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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2012 10:19 
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DRDO, Army working on futuristic artillery gun

Quote:
We are proposing to develop a futuristic gun in consultation with the Army. We are in dialogue with the Army for some of the new technologies we are proposing to introduce into this gun, for example a special coating for the barrel to enhance its life, the smart recoil system with rheological fluid or an electrical drive to elevate and traverse the gun. We are in dialogue with the Army to finalise the Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) hopefully in the next couple of months. We have already started design work and will modify the design to suit the PSQR.

Since these are new technologies, we expect in about four to five years time we should be ready with a prototype for user trials, followed by summer and winter trials. Production could commence in about nine to 10 years' time. So the development cycle is 5-7 years including evaluation by the Army.


Quote:
We want to try new technology in the area of recoil. The standard recoil systems are hydro-pneumatic but we are looking at an electro rheological liquid which has adaptive viscosity characteristics. So it will have adaptive damping, you will get a smooth consistent recoil no matter what the weight of the shell and what range you are firing at. That makes for a more reliable recoil system. The PSQRs demand new technology such as barrel coating. So the plan is to first build the barrel using current technologies and then try coating. Once that barrel development technology has matured, we can add new technologies and improve its performance. A number of foreign firms are willing to offer the coating technology. We are in dialogue but nothing has been firmed up yet. In order to cut down on time, we may get the technology from abroad, especially about the barrel coating and the recoilless system.



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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2012 08:54 
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Quote:
New Delhi. The Indian Army has finally initiated its long desired plans to modernise its artillery with the recent announcement of 145 M777 Howitzers, after a lull of twenty six years.

The primary application of these Howitzers will be mountainous, remote and environmentally hostile terrain and will be critical to incorporate munitions that provide an extended range and precision capability.

Raytheon has offered the Excalibur 155mm Precision Guided Extended Range Artillery Projectile for this gun. Also known as the M982 ER DPICM (Extended Range Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions) Projectile, is a fire and forget, smart munition. It is intended to provide the Army with a capability to attack all three key target sets, soft and armored vehicles, and reinforced bunkers, out to ranges exceeding current 155mm family of artillery munitions.


Excalibur for limiting collateral damage and giving unprecedented precision capability


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2012 12:06 
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^^^ Why 45 caliber? I thought the IA had finally settled on 155 mm and 52 caliber as being std? ( Light artillery for Mtn. areas being an exception).


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2012 12:08 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
less project risk.


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 14:03 
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From twitter. TIFWIW

>>@sisir_gupta Gen V K declared PNG. Was told that Ind Embassy had discouraged ppl, think tanks 2 meet him during his US trip


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 22:53 
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Can you translate that from "twittery" to english for twitterially chellanged, pl?


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 23:06 
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PNG => Persona non Grata, 2=> to, ppl => people, TIFWFW => Take it for what it's worth


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 23:47 
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That's strange.. Any other source to authenticate this tweet?? if legitimate, Why has he been declared Persona Non Grata??


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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2012 23:49 
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The PNG thing is figurative. The Indian embassy cannot declare anyone an actual PNG in the US.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 07:40 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 08:29 
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^these lessons should actually act as basis to fix the underlying loopholes. if these happens again, then we have to acknowledge something more serious problem.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 08:39 
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Singha wrote:
MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.

:rotfl: :rotfl:
And the saga continues ( just the year this happens keeps changing cyclically)


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 09:20 
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sum wrote:
Singha wrote:
MOD has scrapped the BEML + Zuzana 155mm product deal after finding that ravi rishi of tatra sipox fame was also in this new venture.

:rotfl: :rotfl:
And the saga continues ( just the year this happens keeps changing cyclically)


As part of confidence building with China and Pakistan the Indian MoD is committed to stalling any and all overmatch programs with respect to those two countries. This means that arty will never get done until those countries are significantly overmatching us.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 09:53 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
afaik this was one of the JVs in the works. BEML by virtue of being a well fed Munna was apparently hoping to get this deal on a non-tender basis but it seems IA wants a tender based competition in which the others like M&M, OFB who have tied up with global vendors will also compete.
so it may not be a huge loss - in any case, the way BEML operates the cost would have been high, payoffs all over the place and TOT would be zero to minimal into domestic industry (ie beml itself).
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 023923.cms

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ctra-group

its good this thing got scrapped now, rather than go ahead, believe in the cause , only to have it fall apart under scams and mishandling 3 yrs from now.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 12:00 
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I remember in defexpo, kalyani industries had announced their foray into defence sector with their artillery systems. IIRC, they had stated 2015 when they would offer a 155 artillery system, lots of other companies coming into the foray, I believe after 2015, there would be multiple good indigenous artillery systems on the offer. Worth a read below -

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/kalyani-group-artillery-to-be-featured/469398/

Kalyani Group artillery to be featured

Quote:
Army chief General V K Singh’s leaked letter to defence minister A K Antony, which flagged the country’s lack of defence preparedness, casts a shadow over Defexpo India 2012, which kicks off in New Delhi tomorrow. However, the silver linings in the four-day event would be the impressive presence of several Indian private companies and newcomers in developing complex weaponry, with capabilities the defence ministry (MoD) can no longer ignore.

Among the most visible would be the Pune-headquartered Kalyani Group, which would emphatically project its ambition to develop artillery systems for the Indian Army. With foreign artillery procurement stalled for two decades, Baba Kalyani — who has shaped his flagship company, Bharat Forge, into the world’s largest forgings manufacturer — has committed the finance, the manpower and the strategic mind space he believes would make the Kalyani Group a full-spectrum developer of artillery systems.

Kalyani intends to start by building a 155 mm, 52-calibre towed howitzer, which the army desperately wants. Several years of user trials of foreign guns have only resulted in vendors being rejected, blacklisted, or withdrawn from the contest. Kalyani is now boldly offering an Indian alternative.

“I will offer to the Indian Army a fully developed artillery gun system, integrating all the command and control elements, before 2015,” he asserts.

To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG. Instead of learning the ropes of manufacturing artillery from scratch, Kalyani’s designers in Pune intend to absorb foreign technology, thereby leapfrogging an extended development process. Unlike many Indian private companies, Baba Kalyani is investing his own money into building capabilities. Given Bharat Forge’s hardcore engineering pedigree, he is confident he has the solution.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 13:08 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
kalyani is following a pragmatic strategy. their voest alpine design is one of the original "children" of the gerald bull work...so technically it will be sound.
given the size of our orders and the risk/cost these pvt players are bearing its imo better the orders be split among multiple players so that all may recover some investment and have some incentive to persevere rather than a winner takes all munna kind of deal. ofcourse a minimum bar should be set.

with JBMOU std, the 155mm rounds and charges will be interoperable across guns and all these pvt players making the guns in India should be able to provide good and timely OEM service both at base and in the more frontline areas.

we need to develop multiple nodes of competence not just one.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 13:20 
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http://idp.justthe80.com/army-projects/guns/155-mm-52-caliber-tracked-gun

As per the above article there are the below projects currently being considered for the artillery guns for the IA. Scratch 2 and we are still left with 3 options. Not bad!

1.OFB Made Bofors 155mm / 52 Caliber Gun
2.Bofors TOT (same as above?)
3.Indigenous 155m / 52 Caliber Gun
4.Kalyani Group's 155mm/45 Caliber Gun
5.L&T 155mm / 52 Calibre Tracked Self Propelled Artillery
6.Bhim T6 155mm / 52 Caliber Gun


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2012 13:23 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
#1 and #2 are somewhat different I believe, though #1 might use ideas and tech sourced via #2.
#1 is only going for 45cal iirc and #2 is 52-cal from day1.

L&T is the only runner for the Truck/Tank SP thing. they should be given a fat order.

divide up the towed guns between the other 3 if they all make the mark.


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