International Naval News & Discussion

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wig
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by wig »

Armed guards to protect British ships from pirates=British ships are to be allowed to carry armed guards to protect them from pirates, David Cameron has announced.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rates.html

the UK PM unveiled the measure after talks at a Commonwealth summit in Australia with leaders of countries in the Horn of Africa over the escalating problem faced in waters off their shores.

Under the plans, the Home Secretary will be given the power to license vessels to carry armed security, including automatic weapons, currently prohibited under firearms laws.

this should be the international norm
aditya.agd
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by aditya.agd »

Indian Naval armed forces are inadequate to assist Indian diplomacy. It will be better to quietly build up the naval power without making too much noise.
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 91,00.html

Xcpt:
Germany Threatens To Halt Submarine Sale to Israel

REUTERS
A German "Dolphin" submarine docks at the port of Haifa in Israel.
The German government is threatening to halt the delivery of a submarine capable of firing nuclear warheads in protest of the Israeli government's recent decision to build new homes in the Arab part of Jerusalem. Earlier this year, SPIEGEL reported that Germany's subsidized submarine sales program is linked to World War II reparations.

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Germany is threatening to stop the delivery of a "Dolphin" submarine to Israel in protest over the country's settlement policies. Government sources confirmed the development when asked by SPIEGEL following speculation last week in the Israeli media that Germany might halt the sale.


The move is in response to the recent decision by the Israeli government to approve the construction of 1,100 homes in Gilo, an Arab part of Jerusalem captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War. The Israeli government considers the area to be a Jewish suburb, but the international community contests that description.

The threat by German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been the subject of considerable concern in Israel.

The nuclear-weapons capable Dolphin submarines are an important part of the Israeli military strategy. The navy already owns three of the submarines and two further vessels are currently being built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), the shipbuilding division of German steelmaker Thyssen-Krupp, in Kiel, Germany.

This summer, the German government approved €135 million ($189 million) in funding to assist Israel with the purchase of a sixth Dolphin submarine over the next four years. Now, however, that deal for the sixth submarine is in jeopardy.

In addition to its capability of firing nuclear warheads, the submarine also has a larger cruising range because of its advanced modern fuel-cell propulsion technology.

Germany has been delivering submarines to Israel since the end of the 1990s following the first Gulf War. The first two submarines given to Israel were entirely subsidized by the German government, but those subsidies are being reduced with each additional purchase. Under the current program, the government is subsidizing one-third of the cost of the submarine
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Excellent report on the gobal sub market.

The Global Submarine Market 2011-2021
NEW YORK, Nov. 3, 2011 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Reportlinker.com announces that a new market research report is available in its catalogue:

The Global Submarine Market 2011-2021

http://www.reportlinker.com/p0547291/Th ... -2021.html #utm_source=prnewswire&utm_medium=pr&utm_campaign=Machine_Tool_and_Equipment
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... EP20111109

Russia orders five Yasen class nuclear subs
PM Putin visits White Sea shipyard

* Oversees navy orders worth $9 billion

* Calls on arms makers to cut costs, improve quality

By Gleb Bryanski

SEVERODVINSK, Russia, Nov 9 (Reuters) - Russia announced plans to build five nuclear submarines and made $9 billion worth of orders for the navy on Wednesday as part of an ambitious programme to modernise its army and fleet spear headed by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

Putin, who will seek his third term as president next year, visited Alexander Nevsky, the new Borei class nuclear submarine, which will carry Bulava intercontinental missiles, and attended the signing ceremony at the Sevmash shipyard on the White Sea.

"I am sure that realisation of this unprecedented programme, both in terms of its goals and financial resources, will enable us to carry out a large scale modernisation of our army and fleet," Putin told a meeting of government officials at Sevmash.

The contracts, whose details are sketchy, envisage construction of five Yasen class submarines, a Sevmash official who declined to be identified told Reuters. The cost of one Yasen submarine is estimated at $1.3 billion.

Yasen is bigger than Borei, whose cost is estimated at $759 million. It is armed with cruise missiles and does not carry long-range ballistic missiles such as Bulava which fall under international arms reduction treaties.
Pratyush
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Well the Rusies can make Nuke subs for 795 Million $ (If the cost is accurate). While the SDREs will spend 2 billion $/ Boat for conventional boats :(( .
member_19648
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by member_19648 »

Pratyush wrote:Well the Rusies can make Nuke subs for 795 Million $ (If the cost is accurate). While the SDREs will spend 2 billion $/ Boat for conventional boats :(( .
That my friend is the cost of indigenization and development of home R&D. You should look at the bigger picture.
Pratyush
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Hey, At the cost of going seriously OT. The cost ought to have been paid with the Arihant, it self, no. What revolutionary new capibility is being looked at for the p75I That for an SSK she will cost approx 2 billion $ a piece.

Lets take this to the IN thread.
wig
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by wig »

German group ThyssenKrupp wants to pull out of a London-based joint venture with industrial services company Ferrostaal that sells submarines, the move was prompted by corruption allegations
The two businesses have been involved in a joint venture called Marine Force International (MFI) based in London. That company was founded in 2004 in order to sell submarines built by ThyssenKrupp subsidiary HDW around the world.

ThyssenKrupp's planned withdrawal is believed to be linked to a corruption scandal involving Ferrostaal. The Munich public prosecutor's office has accused Ferrostaal of paying millions of euros in bribes to Greece related to the purchase of 214-class submarines. The joint venture has been widely cited as an example of how German and other European companies have massively profited from a Greek government that has, for years, spent beyond its means. Many German firms doing business in the country have also been complicit in corruption.

Insiders say that ThyssenKrupp also likely wants to get out of the consortium because MFI itself has also recently been suspected of corruption, regarding questionable payments involved in its sale of submarines to South Korea. After a SPIEGEL report last week, ThyssenKrupp had to concede that it transferred millions of euros to an intermediary suspected of corruption in Seoul, despite the fact that MFI knew by 2007, at the latest, that the intermediary had already been convicted of bribing members of the Korean military in 1993.

The business dealings of MFI were scrutinized in a confidential report compiled by the US law firm Debevoise & Plimpton. In its investigation, the firm could not find concrete evidence of MFI paying bribes, but its report lists numerous inconsistencies related to submarine deals with Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey, Italy and Egypt.

The attorneys investigated, for example, a deal in Turkey that involved a questionable loan of more than €2 million ($2.8 million) to a local business partner. In Indonesia, the local intermediary allegedly blatantly demanded that the company "line the pockets of my friends."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/bus ... 74,00.html
VinodTK
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

India-born US navy capt dies mysteriously
Washington: India-born captain Tushar Tembe, commanding officer of the American nuclear powered aircraft carrier USS Harry S Truman, has suddenly died, the US navy announced on Thursday.

Forty nine year-old Tembe, a naval aviator, had assumed command of Truman only three months ago. Mumbai-born Tembe came to the US as a child and graduated from Texas Tech University.

In a statement, the US navy said, the ship's medical response team provided immediate medical assistance until Tembe could be transported to Bons Secours Maryview Medical Center where he was later pronounced dead.

The cause of death has not been determined, it said. "We offer our sincere condolences to capt Tembe's wife and children , his family and the Truman crew. They are in our our prayers as we deal with this tragic loss. Capt Tembe served the navy and our nation honorably and with great distinction ," said commander of naval air force Atlantic.
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 712851.cms

13 Nov, 2011, 10.30AM IST, AFP

China tensions stoke Vietnam naval ambitions
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Malaysia's controversial Scorpene deal too has a sting in its tail! The IN is not the exception.Further news that Spain's Scorpenes too are to be delayed by two years,adds to the woes of thos nations whohave bought Scorpenes.What gives?

Xcpt,read the full report.
Our third submarine stirs up muddy waters

Mariam Mokhtar
| November 18, 2011

How much did the Malaysian taxpayer pay for the Agosta-class submarine? When was it purchased and when was it decided to hand it over to Ali Rustam?
When the Malaysian government signed a deal in 2002 with the joint naval builders, DCNS of France and Navantia of Spain, to commission two Scorpene-class submarines, it did not realise that the purchases would create an international scandal.

The controversy surrounding the Scorpene-class submarines refuses to sink into oblivion. Now, attention is focused on the little known Agosta-class submarine, the Ouessant (S623), which was completed in 1978 and served the French navy until she was decommissioned in 2001. It appears Malaysia also owns the Ouessant.

A few readers may recall very sketchy details about a third submarine which was used to train the Malaysian submariners. That was the Agosta-class Ouessant, which the “Asia Sentinel” described in its reporting on the Scorpene scandal as a “retired submarine manufactured by a joint venture between DCN and Spanish company Agosta”.

Opposition politicians have bombarded Umno with questions about the submarine deal but have been thwarted by unintelligent and conflicting answers from the Defence Ministry.
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://news.businessweek.com/article.as ... Q6T524VL1C

(Full article worth reading..."Rakesh Sharma",who he?)

China's Pacific Push Spurs U.S. Spending on Anti-Sub Warfare
(Updates with latest Chinese maneuvers in fourth paragraph, Korean confrontation in 15th, Ultra shares in 19th.)

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- China's naval expansion in the Pacific Ocean is poised to accelerate U.S. investment in anti- submarine warfare equipment, according to Ultra Electronics Holdings Plc, the world's biggest supplier of sonar detectors.

The Pentagon and its allies will focus spending on devices able to spot subs even in the noisiest shipping lanes as China's naval build-up heightens tensions with neighboring nations and underscores the need to secure commercial shipping flows, Ultra Chief Executive Officer Rakesh Sharma said in an interview.

“Even with global defense cuts the sonar business is expanding,” Sharma said. “Mineral supplies and commodities, for example, are all transported by sea, so it's becoming imperative to protect trade routes. Australia, Singapore, Malaysia and the Philippines, as well as the U.S., will all start investing in anti-submarine warfare as the possible threat from China grows.”

President Barack Obama said last week he'd station 2,500 marines in north Australia to boost security in vital sea lanes as the U.S. moves to blunt the naval influence of China, which is staging exercises in the western Pacific this month and plans to add 30 subs through 2020 out of 86 likely to be built for the region's fleets, according to defense researcher IHS Jane's.

Hidden Threat

Ultra's latest technology employs multiple “sonobuoys” which are dropped from a ship or plane and return data from different angles and frequencies to determine whether an object is a submarine, a rock or a whale, Sharma said. Earlier versions couldn't differentiate between organic and inorganic materials.

Greenford, England-based Ultra is developing sonars geared to Asia-Pacific operations at a unit in Indiana, the CEO said. Emitting more powerful acoustic pulses, they can spot submarine signatures in the most sound-polluted waters, including the Malacca Strait -- the main channel between the Pacific and Indian oceans -- and the South China Sea, where oil rights have led to standoffs between China, Vietnam and the Philippines.

Other gear is able to detect variations in temperature and salinity that can help hide even nearby vessels, Sharma said.

“Water is a very good insulator and when a submarine is sitting on the seabed not moving for days it's very difficult to identify,” he said. “You could have a sub sitting 5 kilometers off your ship and never hear it, or one 20 kilometers away that you can easily detect. It isn't related to the distance the sub is from you, but the way the sound is travelling.”

U.S. concern about Chinese capabilities began to increase in 2006, when a diesel-powered Song-class attack submarine surfaced undetected within torpedo range of a naval battle group led by the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk, Sharma said......
Austin
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Austin »

Image
Austin
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Post by Austin »

Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

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http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011 ... azaar.html

XCpt:
Southeast Asia’s underwater bazaar
Ristian Atriandi Supriyanto, Singapore

scan of recent naval procurement by Southeast Asian navies points to the fact that submarines top their shopping lists. Thailand and the Philippines have been talking the talk to add submarines to their fleets.

Thailand plans to buy six ex-German Navy Type-206 submarines. Despite facing domestic criticisms against the plan, Bangkok believes the US$257 million purchase will be money well-spent.

The Thai Navy argues that the underwater warships are needed to patrol the Andaman Sea and Gulf of Thailand and catch up with neighboring navies’ modernization.

The Philippines, too, has recently announced the “Sail Plan 2020” to buy, among others, a submarine. Although financial problems have stifled the plan, the recent tension in the South China Sea (SCS) may bolster domestic support for the purchase.

Following its maritime spat with China over the South Chine Sea, Vietnam decided to acquire six Kilo-class submarines from Russia in December 2009.

The delivery of the boats will begin in 2014 and greatly increase Hanoi’s capability to monitor activities in the disputed sea.

Despite that submarines alone form part of a regional naval modernization trend, the motive and timing for the purchases have led some to argue that the region is in some sort of a naval arms race.

Indonesia purchased submarines in the early 1960s and 1980s. But it was not until 1995 that a second regional country, Singapore, purchased submarines from Sweden.

Malaysia followed suit in 2002 with two Scorpene-class boats purchased from France, allegedly as a response to Singapore’s procurement. And recently, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines have announced their bids almost simultaneously.

This will result in Southeast Asia having at least six submarine operators in the next decade or so. Should this trend persist, it will be unprecedented in the regional naval development.

Not only will the waters become more crowded, it could also bring deleterious consequences for regional maritime security. Thus, it is necessary to examine why the submarine has become a weapon of choice for regional navies.

The submarine is different from surface warships for the purpose they are built and the method they are deployed. Surface warships are not only designed to attack their likes. For example, they can also conduct counter-piracy patrols, marine environmental protection, or even peacekeeping operations.

Thus, surface warships are less sensitive to other navies provided they are only fitted with modest armaments to conduct normal, routine patrols.

By contrast, a submarine has nothing else to do but to sink ships, especially for a diesel-electric attack, or conventional, submarine (SSK). The SSK is the only type currently sought after by the six Southeast Asian navies.

Armed with torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs), the SSKs can sink enemy vessels at sea while remaining underwater.

They can also support special operations, for example, to discreetly land Special Forces, lay sea mines, or conduct intelligence activities inside or near enemy waters.

The SSKs can perform these roles thanks to its stealth capability. Stealth is a matter of life and death for submariners. Stealth permits a submarine to quietly intrude into enemy’s waters and covertly do whatever it wants.

But stealth is also a submarine’s Achilles’ heels. Once detected, a submarine is left vulnerable to attack from aircraft, surface warships or other submarines.

But, submarine’s stealth capability has recently been improved by an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system which permits the submarine to stay submerged for a longer period of time.

Non-AIP SSK may have three to five days underwater. But with an AIP, it can stay submerged for weeks at a time. Malaysia’s Scorpene and Singapore’s Västergötland submarines are known to be equipped with AIP systems.

Hence, SSKs are very attractive indeed. They come as an effective weapon against stronger navies with an affordable price tag. They can greatly restrict the operational range and mobility of surface warships with a specter of being sunk.

They can be secretly deployed in disputed waters, such as the SCS or Ambalat, to monitor activities unnoticed.

Thus, they are less likely to generate tensions often associated with the deployment of surface warships. Should a conflict occur, they can also be tasked to protect sea lanes from the enemy’s or belligerent warships.

On the flip side, however, they can easily trigger misperceptions and miscalculations.

A submarine found lurking in disputed or foreign waters will be perceived as having a clear intention of doing activities detrimental to the latter.

Thus, it does not make sense when the Malaysian armed forces chief said that the Scorpene submarines could “stabilize regional security” during his recent visit to Jakarta (The Jakarta Post, July 6, 2011). There is nothing regional about it. It is only individual.

Clearly, the submarine shopping spree in the region is an indication of existing inter-state tensions in the maritime domain.

Regional institutions and security regimes provide a solid framework to ease the tensions, but they are
not silver bullets. Nobody wants war to occur. But referring it as an assumption that war is impossible is indeed foolish.

Facing this, Indonesia must react and act quickly.

First, with military expenditure expected to rise by US$9 billion in 2014, Indonesia must put naval modernization high on the defense agenda.

Second, it must improve anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities by adding ASW sensors on all platforms, particularly on naval aviation. The current ASW platform based only on surface warships (hull-mounted sonar) is dangerously insufficient. This also implies the need for better ASW doctrine and exercises.

Third, it must accelerate the submarine procurement process and come up with a capability on par with other regional states, but with a number more suitable to meet Indonesia’s maritime needs.

This means that they must be at least AIP-equipped, armed with both torpedo and ASCM. The new submarines will likely be German-Korean Type-209 or French Scorpene, after Russian Kilo-class boats were disqualified by the navy. All are capable of being equipped with AIP and ASCM.

But the deal should also include provisions for the construction of submarine support and training facilities ashore.

Fourth, it should gradually develop self-sufficiency in naval shipbuilding to enable all-around maintenance capabilities for the new submarines and other ASW platforms.

Only then can Indonesia be ready to sail the treacherous waters ahead.

The writer is a postgraduate student in Strategic Studies at S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, NTU, Singapore and a researcher at the Center for East Asian Cooperation Studies (CEACoS), University of Indonesia, Jakarta.
Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Gripping dtory about the RN's devastating loss of the Prince of Wales and Repulse by Japanese torpedo planes days after the attack on Pearl Haorbour,which was described thus.
A handful of fighter planes could well have downed the slow and lumbering Japanese torpedo bombers if they had been summoned in time.

The impact of the loss of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse was devastating.
‘Never in its 300-year history had the Royal Navy suffered such a one-sided defeat,’ says historian Colin Smith.

‘Never had the loss of two ships been so crucial.’

Malaya lay wide open to the already-invading Japanese forces. Two months later Singapore would surrender in what even Churchill — the master of spin whose words had turned the defeat at Dunkirk into a triumph — would openly confess was ‘the worst disaster in British history’.

It is no exaggeration to date the beginning of the end of Britain’s imperial might from that day 70 years ago when the Prince of Wales and the Repulse went down.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1gE5bjF4c
Britain's own Pearl Harbour: The Japanese ambush that left the Navy's finest ships at the bottom of the sea and 800 men dead
By Tony Rennell

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1gE4mTIXz
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

Assumptions were made that a show of force would soon see off any threat of invasion. Force Z — consisting of Prince of Wales, Repulse and four destroyers but without the promised aircraft carrier that might have made the difference — was hurriedly dispatched from Singapore up the Malayan east coast.

The commander, Admiral Sir Tom Phillips, was confident that his state-of-the-art battleship Prince of Wales, with its big guns, top-notch armour-plating and modern defence systems, was unsinkable by anything Tokyo could muster.

He looked on Japanese fighter planes and bombers as mere irritants, flies to be swatted away.
this after the IJN had staged pearl harbour using 6 carriers across 1000s of km using the cream of naval aviation and zero fighters then. we must never repeat these feats of imperial arrogance that a show of guns and the union jack will scare anyone. the first mistake will cost us heavy.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Australia invites European shipyards to submit designs for a plan to build 12 conventional submarines at an astonishing cost of A$36 billion (US $36 billion)..these are planned to be even larger than the Collins class subs that already are the largest conventional subs around..

Australia seeks European designs for subs
Australia has asked three European companies to submit designs to replace its submarine fleet at a cost of up to A$36 billion ($36 billion) in a defense buildup aimed at protecting resource exports and countering an accelerating arms race in Asia.

French naval builder DCNS, part owned by Thales, Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH and Spanish state shipbuilder Navantia had been asked for information on conventional submarine designs, Australia’s Minister for Defense Materiel Jason Clare said Dec. 13.

“The Future Submarines Project is the biggest and most complex defence project we have ever embarked upon,” Clare said.

Australia plans to build a fleet of 12 submarines to enter service around 2025. That comes on top of a A$65 billion military buildup already underway, including new amphibious assault carriers, stealth fighter aircraft, tanks, helicopters and missile destroyers.

The country has also budgeted to buy up to 100 of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighters, double the size of a purchase being mulled by Japan.

The buildup is in part aimed at countering China’s military expansion and reach into southeast Asia and the South China Sea, where Beijing is involved in disputes with several other states over sovereignty.

Australia, a close U.S. ally, also agreed last month to host a de facto U.S. base in the north of the country to provide military reach into Asia and rotate U.S. Marines and warships through Australian ports.

But Canberra has been keen to paint its growing military clout as directed at beefing up security for offshore resource developments and mineral exports, as well as increasing its capability to respond to humanitarian disasters regionally.

The new submarines will be larger and more capable than the navy’s current fleet of six locally-built Collins submarines, which are among the world’s largest conventional boats, but which have been plagued by manufacturing and design problems.

U.S. officials have been pressing Australia to commit to the submarine fleet, and some security and naval analysts had called for the government to consider buying U.S. nuclear-powered attack submarines off the shelf.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Austin »

WoW $3 billion per sub and that too conventional , They might well buy US LA class for that kind of money. $36 billion for subprogram is huge
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

this will be another prolonged disaster for them . none of three remotely have as big a sub design. they will promise much and deliver something but with numerous problems.

the only design in the water that could scale up to such size is the Soryu. and we know nothing about how reliable it is.

for $3b each cannot they just buy a few MLU'ed and refueled 688I class boats - proven, superbly machined and tough beasts with capabilities far exceeding any SSK past , present or future. or maybe even a scaled down virginia.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

" 'Roos will never learn!"

The Collins class,"torpedoed",touted as the world's most expensive subs ever,and the worst performing too.Some Xcpts:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/chaos-tor ... 6222295974
The Collins-class fleet won an unenviable notoriety.

After deployment, the next vexed issue for the fleet was maintenance, made all the more critical because of the original problems.

Unfortunately that too has become mired in controversy, with criticisms of delay and inefficiency - leading to the subs being frequently in dry dock.

Related Coverage

Smith's quest to repair the navy The Australian, 1 hour ago
Sub fleet upgrade our biggest challenge Courier Mail, 1 day ago
Collins fleet damned as unfit The Australian, 1 day ago
Toxic gas forces sub to surface Foundation, 2 Nov 2011
Costs sinking our submarine fleet Courier Mail, 17 Oct 2011

The Collins-class submarines remain at the top of the Defence Department's projects of concern list.
This week Defence Minister Stephen Smith released the latest insight into the troubled subs, part one of an investigation by UK submarine expert John Coles which explores the current program to sustain the subs - and concludes that fundamental reform is required to keep the fleet functioning and afloat.

"It points to very serious flaws over a long period of time and draws attention to the need for fundamental reform in the way in which the maintenance and sustainment of the Collins-class is effected," Mr Smith said.

The reports presents a damning picture of a complex, inefficient and ultimately flawed $440 million annual maintenance and sustainment program - predicting "it will be just a matter of time before the program grinds to a halt or the risk of a serious incident reaches unacceptable levels".

The report highlights poor relationships between the main players, the Federal Government's Defence Materiel Organisation, the government-owned enterprise ASC, which built the subs and now has the contract to maintain them in South Australia and Western Australia, and the Royal Australian Navy.

As well, the availability of the submarines for operational use is a major concern.

"Despite increases in funding for sustainment, and strenuous efforts on the part of the various authorities and agencies involved, the level of submarine availability continues to fall," the report says.

"The length of dockings is increasing and submarines frequently have to return to harbour with problems. Loss of availability had also been caused by lack of crews, and the level of crew availability remains critical to the support of operations."
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Taiwan needs help in N-sub tech.Who will help it?

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003520765

Taiwan giving up on US subs, eyeing local plan: analyst
By J. Michael Cole / Staff Reporter
Mark Stokes, executive director at the US-based Project 2049 Institute and a vocal proponent of a submarine program for Taiwan, said the Ministry of National Defense had given up on acquiring submarines from the US and had decided to launch an indigenous program with foreign assistance.

Military sources claim that research on submarine building has been launched and that the navy is trying to acquire production know-how from abroad.

The ministry has reportedly commissioned a local shipbuilder to contract a country other than the US capable of building submarines for cooperation in building non-nuclear-powered boats.

The Naval Shipbuilding Development Center under Navy Command has been very busy studying the blueprints of the navy’s two Hai Lung-class submarines — Taiwan’s only combat-ready subs — which were acquired from the Netherlands in the late 1980s.

Naval authorities are also reportedly readying to send personnel abroad to study production technology or negotiate technology transfers for building pressure-resistant hulls, which sources say is the most challenging aspect in building submarines.

Stokes said a good number of countries have the capabilities sought by Taiwan.

In the initial stage, the navy could limit its domestic program to small subs in the hundreds of deadweight tonnage, the report said.

Weighing in, James Holmes, an associate professor of strategy at the US Naval War College, told the Taipei Times that Taipei was right to give up on the US as a supplier of submarines, as this was never going to happen.

“Anti-submarine warfare is a People’s Liberation Army Navy Achilles’ heel,” he said, adding that “in the abstract a Taiwanese submarine force would be ideal.”

If Iran can build its own small mini-subs of the Ghadir class,then there is no reaon why taiwan cannot develop its own designs.It has wastede decades of waiting and lobbying the US/west who are scared of upsetting the Dragon!
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Dmurphy »

These Russians ought to be kidding themselves. Another accident on a nuclear submarine.

IN PICS: Russian nuclear sub catches fire

The fire at the Yekaterinburg nuclear submarine started while it was docked for repairs at the Roslyakovo shipyard in the Murmansk region.

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Philip
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Heads will roll for this miserable accident if true,wooden props catching fire...!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tmlRussian nuclear submarine catches fire
Last edited by Gerard on 30 Dec 2011 05:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited - copyright
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Russian nuclear submarine, Yekaterinburg, in dock fire
Russian news agencies later said the submarine had been partially submerged in the dock to help extinguish the blaze.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

discovery was showing a pgm recently on how a decommed typhoon class was towed into a drydock for scrapping. must have been in some northern sea military port. the general condition of the port, buildings, drydock looked like something that had been abandoned and left to grass for 20 years.....very decrepit.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by VinayG »

Fire on a nuclear submarine "Yekaterinburg" (location of the accident). Video

SaiK
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

they must drinking too much vodka on work and lighting cigarettes like crazy.. and with all those russian beauties, and weakening economy, what else.. lack of rules, and all things going up on flames..

something really wrong with them.. and these are nuke subs.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Working at those Arctic temperatures ,especially in winter,requires a large qty. of vodka inside one's belly!
Reports suggest that the wooden props caught fire during welding and that damage from fire was mainly the rubberised anechoic coating covering the hull which caught fire.These double-hulled subs are so tough (view the salvaged remains ofthe Kursk),that there would be little or no damage caused from the external fire.However,the fire was eventually put out by submerging the sub and if the sub was sealed off before the partial submerging,and no water entered its hull,its interior should be hunky-dory.It will take some time before the sub is repaired and rejoins service,as the entire range of sea trials,etc. will have to be redone.

During repairs and refits,the amount of flammable material that is used demands the highest stds. of fire prevention.If one studies shipbuilding history and fire accidents,the majority was when the ships/subs were in refit/repairs or during completion stages,when paint,etc,was being used .It just needs one spark...! Some years ago one of our missile boats was destroyed by a dockyard fire if I am not mistaken.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

don't understand, evacuate people and seal the sub, and remove/suck the oxygen out to sea water or inject co2 gas. would not that be faster?
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Austin »

Since the fire seem to have been caught on the frontal dome of the sub in an area where sonar exist , those will be the non-metallic composite or some other material dome structure not covered by any rubber tiles , since sonar needs some kind of transparent material to emit and listen much like your radar of aircraft which do not have metallic nose.

The rubber certainly will catch fire as it happened in typhoon when one of the SS-N-20 failed to launch and solid fuel burnt the entire rubber on top of hull.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Subs usually have bow sonars fitted outside the pressure hull,with a rotational drive.The sonar arrrays should be pressure resistant too.A framework of steel round bars in a diagonal pattern allows returns without "shadow".Stainless steel plating or other sound permeable material is placed as a cover/plating over the framework.Depending upon the bow shape,the sonar arrays are deisgned usually cylindrical or horseshoe.Latest US N-subs have huge spherical bow sonars with torpedo rooms/tubes amidships.Flank arrays and arrays at other locations,plus towed arrays too,active and passive,give a complete acoustic picture ,including the subs own-generated noise,able to deal with mines,incoming sonar waves,helicopter detection though rotor downforce onto the sea,etc.Some sources say that the latest flank sonars are so capable that the need for towed sonars no longer exists.This will affect sub tactics,giving it greater freedom of movement,which is affected when trailing a towed array.

Our incoming Akula will be fitted with special sensors unique only to Russian subs,They have several special sensors to detect a sub's wake,radiation levels in the water,radar and aircraft/helo warning,and other non-acoustical sensors.A full range of active and passive sonars are the main acosutic sensors.There are also special propulsors,used when operating in silent mode which pop out from the hull when needed.We will know more about the IN's Akula when pics are available which we can compare with Ak-1/2 and 3 series.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/imag ... 8b2503.jpg

iran has fitted this missile to a bunch of speedboats and keeps talking tough. looks hardly bigger than a atgm to me and these speedboats have no seakeeping ability or range to trouble anyone but their own crews.

not sure if its a modified IR aam. the ships dont look like they have a radar to guide ASM.

cobra gunships + hellfires from american marine LPD ships will maul this speedboat mob without even needing to call in the f-18s.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Yes,I saw that intriguing fit of what appears to be a 6-barelled rocket launcher mounted atop the cabin of a small speedboat! Ingenious low cost asset,probably manned by Rev.Guards.The little speedboat can do a lot of damage to merchant vessels,which appears to be its purpose.The rocket launchers give it a far greater range of kill than patrol craft thrice its size.This assymetric warfare Iranian maritime style.True,when faced against a helo with a 5km ATGM missile,it stands little chance,but when part of a large flotilla of warships,and the Iranians can build dozens of these small craft,will be like prianhas in the Straits of Hormuz,esp. after dark.

There is a lot that one can learn from the Iranians who deprived of foreign military tech have developed a lot of homespun weaponry at low cost and within Iran's technological base to be able to build in large numbers.backed with Chinese anti-ship cruise missiles and an assortment of locally developed short range tactical missiles,which the Iranians possess in large qty.,the Gulf could be a very dangerous place to transit should a spat between the Iranians and the US occur on the high seas.

The situ is very tense right now.Speaking to a pal located in the region in the know of events,it is a "tinderbox",with the US's sanctions regime,the Israelis waiting to attack and the Iranians bluff and bluster a situ ripe for disaster.wars have started in history for far fewer reasons.A Straits war would send oil prices into the stratosphere and India and the rupee into a dark,deep hole.The silence of the Indian govt. over such a serious situ is simply amazing.WE have abdicated our rightful role in international affairs and under the "mouse that squeaks",have relegated ourselves to not even being the White House's butler,but a mere "footman"!

I do not know how many saw the utterly shameful picture of our beloved PM meeting the Chinese overlord.Our PM's bow was so low and demeaning, that of a inferior,to his superior,while the Chinaman looked on with just a mere nod of the head! In Asian tradition,especially in the far east,there are different kinds of bowing.A deep bow from the waist (as delivered by MMS) to one's superior,a less pronounced bow from the chest to one's equal and a nod from the head delivered by one's superior.Surely,our dear PM with his vast knowledge (one expects),or the mandarins of our MEA would've pointed out to him the significance of the bow? The pic made me so ashamed,as it looked exactly what our foreign policy towards China is worth,that of a vassal state bowing to its lord and master!
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

I read later the missile could be the chinese C701 which is somewhat the size and weight of our Nag. a mmw version named C703 is also said to exist.

>the little speedboat can do a lot of damage to merchant vessels,which appears to be its purpose.

imo even 10 of these hitting a merchant ship will have no impact unless it hits the bridge ... the ship will just sail on , same goes for hitting tankers. a far bigger missile like sea eagle would be needed to majorly damage the rear superstructure and bring the ship to a halt either with a hit near waterline or a vertical zenith attack using popup mode.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

It depends upon what warheads are used.True,in the last war between Iran and Iraq,warships followed tankers which were less vulnerable to underwater mines,but the very fact that merchantmen are being attacked will send maritime insurance into space,with follow on effects all down the chain.More dangerous are Irans's small mini-subs which can torpedo a tanker quite easily.In fact,given the width of the Straits of Hormuz,and the Iranians inventory of long range homing torpedoes,Iranian warships and subs,withhout leaving its territorial waters could launch torpedo attacks against merchant vessels.

I was reading just a couple of days ago the '71 war and the IN's attacks on Karachi,reports from both sides,the missile attacks,why they were not pressed on fully as originally intended (engine problems to missile boats,lack of commns.with task force,etc.) and the sinking of INS Khukri by the PNS Hangor which escaped the pursuit.The (unintended) sinking and damage caused to foreign merchantmen in the Karachi attacks,established a de-facto naval blockade of Karachi.In a similar situ in the Gulf,with merchantmen attacked and the Iranians are bound to damage or sink at least a few merchantmen,which shipping company will send in its ships into "harm's way"? Which crews will also be willing to do so.Which nations will be willing to send in their naval forces to escort their own merchantmen too? Will the GOI send in the IN to escort Indian tankers and other Indian flagged merchant shipping in the evnt of a fll blown spat between Iran and the US and its allies? Serious questions which need to be answered right now and the emergency plans to be established if and when the crisis explodes.
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Re: International Naval News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

We have to remember that Iran's situation is very, very different. Their "ocean" for the most part is a finite sea with plenty of (expensive) moving parts. Small boats with plenty of alternatives is what suites them.
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