Quick Clot Kits For Jawans - 1st Round Donations Delivered!!

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Mort Walker
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Mort Walker »

Kobe,

I've sent an email to you. Please acknowledge.

Thanks.
kobe
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

hello everyone,
invites sent
thanks

Raja Bose, we will be counting a lot of checks.
SunilUpa, please reply to my email.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

UPDATE

Using the very advanced technology call a PHONE* I just called up Sagar Fossil Fuels to find out what EXACTLY were the providing RR.

1) They provide QuickClot Original in GREEN packing not ACS/ACS+ as others have inferred.

2) The QuickClots are CUSTOM PACKAGED from the Mfg itself (not repackaged) with instructions in HINDI (coz the jawans dont understand Enlish all the well).

I donno about the rest of you guys but I would rather GIVE them something that they know how to use than try and figure out something they don't have a clue about just coz PayPal patriots got it cheep.

Suggestion:
1) Continue collecting money/pledges wherever you are and send it to India.
2) Get a Delhi/India based jingo to purchased it locally.
3) Get RR to use their usual supply chain to take delivery.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by suryag »

Hello Kobe bhai and Bose Babu do we have a cut-off date for pledges. We should probably have one else we will be collecting through the year and kits will be delayed
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

kobe wrote:hello everyone,
Raja Bose, we will be counting a lot of checks.
Wonderphool onlee! :mrgreen: More the merrier!
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by RayC »

First Field Dressing, Surgical Dressing held at the Section Level, Commercial condoms issued to the troops all had English Instructions. So do many imported ammunition and imported equipment, the latter having Russian alphabets!

When one's life is at stake, one learns fast and language does not matter. Before anything is used, it is explained and extensive training is undertaken to familiarise the troops with its use.

What matters is the number of lives saved. That is why these people are using their hard earned money in these days of economic meltdown and not just to make a gesture or so I feel.

I think it is very noble thought and a very noble cause.

I leave it entirely to you chaps to decide what options you want to use.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

suryag wrote:Hello Kobe bhai and Bose Babu do we have a cut-off date for pledges. We should probably have one else we will be collecting through the year and kits will be delayed
We can keep the cut-off date for pledges and mailing checks as April 17 (Friday). By that day, everybody who wants to donate for this round should have pledged an amount and mailed the check. Please remember to update the google docs document, to indicate you have mailed the check. It might be a good idea to put in the date you mailed it and by what method (USPS etc. etc.) so that we can get an idea when to expect the check if it has not arrived.

kobe, your thoughts on this?
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by RayC »

I have just rung up another person in the Armed Forces Medical Dte and she told me that such items are not charged VAT or import duties, provided it is declared it is for the Armed Forces. MAs can also transit the kits.

I have asked her to get me all the details and rules and she said she would requires two days since she will consult those who deal with the subject.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Gaurav_S »

George J wrote:UPDATE

Using the very advanced technology call a PHONE* I just called up Sagar Fossil Fuels to find out what EXACTLY were the providing RR.
George saab, could you please shed some light on this very advanced state of art technology. All this SDRE uses as a means of communications is snail mail in this 21st century :lol: :lol:

Kobe saab u have done wonderful job with such a ease in this rapid fire round. Hopefully IA top brass gets some lessons from this. You will be getting check from my side sometime next week. This long easter break was quite painful.

Hopefully we can work out which product and from where to buy soon once we get some more hints from Ray sir.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

RayC wrote:First Field Dressing, Surgical Dressing held at the Section Level, Commercial condoms issued to the troops all had English Instructions. So do many imported ammunition and imported equipment, the latter having Russian alphabets!

When one's life is at stake, one learns fast and language does not matter. Before anything is used, it is explained and extensive training is undertaken to familiarise the troops with its use.

What matters is the number of lives saved. That is why these people are using their hard earned money in these days of economic meltdown and not just to make a gesture or so I feel.

I think it is very noble thought and a very noble cause.

I leave it entirely to you chaps to decide what options you want to use.
Ray sir,

GJ does have a point. Perhaps you can put the question to some of your contacts who are familiar with current use of these kits in IA/RR whether the ACS/ACS+ will be useful for them and with English-only instructions. After all we don't want to dump a truck load of these kits if they are to be kept on the dusty shelves of some medical depot and not considered suitable for use by our jawans.

In case you need to provide info to your contacts, I am taking the liberty of summarizing the links for each of the QuikClot kit types:

QuikClot: http://www.z-medica.com/products/quikclot_granular.asp

QuikClot ACS: http://www.z-medica.com/products/quikclot_ACS.asp

QuikClot ACS+: http://www.z-medica.com/products/quikclot_ACSplus.asp
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

I am not interested in making this a slinging match least off all with you.

RR knows best and you are our point of contact. It would be nice if you could verify from them what THEY want . The Hindi pack (QC Original for Mil use) or any of the five varieties of QC (like the one for bicycle accidents) in english.

The road the hell is paved with good intentions.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

George J wrote:UPDATE

Using the very advanced technology call a PHONE* I just called up Sagar Fossil Fuels to find out what EXACTLY were the providing RR.
GJ, Thanks for the info. I was looking for something like that. Lets wait till Ray sir hears back from his contacts and he is also supposed to meet some people. We should get a more concrete aye/nay re. which type of QuikClot kit we need to buy. Meanwhile kobe is doing a wonderful job with the rokda collection so that we have the moolah available at the earliest. :)
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

gauravsurati wrote:......George saab, could you please shed some light on this very advanced state of art technology. All this SDRE uses as a means of communications is snail mail in this 21st century :lol: :lol: .......
Really?? How do you connect to the internet with snail mail that is some technology, I bet you can make a boat load by licensing it. :D Jeeeez guys its been 13 days and it seem we got pledges up the wazhoo but we still didn't know what EXACTLY the quickclot type is.

I am pretty sure BRF is run by babus now.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

George J wrote:
gauravsurati wrote:......George saab, could you please shed some light on this very advanced state of art technology. All this SDRE uses as a means of communications is snail mail in this 21st century :lol: :lol: .......
Jeeeez guys its been 13 days and it seem we got pledges up the wazhoo but we still didn't know what EXACTLY the quickclot type is.
Didn't you mean "children"? :mrgreen:
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by RayC »

George J wrote:I am not interested in making this a slinging match least off all with you.

RR knows best and you are our point of contact. It would be nice if you could verify from them what THEY want . The Hindi pack (QC Original for Mil use) or any of the five varieties of QC (like the one for bicycle accidents) in english.

The road the hell is paved with good intentions.
I am afraid I cannot contact anyone in the RR.

What is obvious is that it has to be the one used for Military Use.

I am not in any competition. I only want lives saved. The more the kit, the more the lives saved. I have a personal reason behind this. I can never forget my own orderly dying with a bullet wound and we watched helplessly trying everything under the sun, all the way he was evacuated to the MH. Maybe this kit would have saved him from bleeding to death.

My only interest is that if it can be sent without hassle through the MAs, so be it and they could be given a letter to state that a Hindi Translation maybe appended with the kit when being issued by the Army. This the Army can always do, apart from the troops using them and who have used them, being conversant with its use.

If the items are bought in India, who will coordinate? Who should they give to? All this has to be undertaken. If the MA is handed over, he would know exactly what to do and we could always ask for a feedback.

It would be less handling and less problems for us.

But then, this is but a suggestion.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

Raja Bose wrote:
suryag wrote:Hello Kobe bhai and Bose Babu do we have a cut-off date for pledges. We should probably have one else we will be collecting through the year and kits will be delayed
We can keep the cut-off date for pledges and mailing checks as April 17 (Friday). By that day, everybody who wants to donate for this round should have pledged an amount and mailed the check. Please remember to update the google docs document, to indicate you have mailed the check. It might be a good idea to put in the date you mailed it and by what method (USPS etc. etc.) so that we can get an idea when to expect the check if it has not arrived.

kobe, your thoughts on this?
Good idea, as of now a lot of people are still emailing.
Being a gujju, its hard for me to say NO to laxmi devi.
But 4/17/2009 is reasonable. She will understand.

I will post it in the doc,
All the check mailing instructions are in the document, and everyone
should update their line with status of check.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Gaurav_S »

kobe wrote:kobe, your thoughts on this?
But 4/17/2009 is reasonable. She will understand.

I will post it in the doc,
All the check mailing instructions are in the document, and everyone
should update their line with status of check.
I really doubt if she will understand this US date format. :lol:
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

George has a point, its just his way of explaining. His intentions are good.
His point is, get RR exactly what they have used. Nothing wrong with that.

My points are:
1) If we can get "exactly that" much cheaper, why not. (I am sure custom hindi label was not free)

2) Hindi / English is minor detail. I think to use this requires someone with decent amount of medical experience.

3) Sending money would be the easiest thing for us. No hassels. But small responsibility on me is that since I collect
the money, I should ensure that it is used for QuiKclot and Quikclot only, and that the end user (RR) gets delivery of it.
To get to that detail, 1) who to send money 2) when will they purchase it 3) what price 4) when will they deliver it etc
will take longer than if we purchased it, and send it to the point man.

RayC sir, believe it or not, I have a way of delivering this directly to Rashtriya Rifles. please send me email at
places223 at google dot com.

Also Mandeep is missing in akshun? where is he?

4) George, you should have asked them the "custom part number", it can still be tracked down and procured with the hindi label.
Last edited by kobe on 14 Apr 2009 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Shankk »

Execution....Hindus...Achilles’ heel...talked about this a while ago on this very forum. Anyway this is not the time nor the place.

Kobe mail sent from netshank at hotmail. Please let me know.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

Shankk wrote:Execution....Hindus...Achilles’ heel...
Ask any Paki army martial ghazi what happens when cowering Hindus are provided a motivation and a mission to do something concrete. All that is needed is a clear mission and motivation. None of these are lacking in this effort! :D
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kittoo »

Kob ji, mail sent from kittoo4202004 at gmail dot com

please grant access.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by RayC »

Kobe,

Sent e mail.

It bounced!
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

RayC wrote:Kobe,

Sent e mail.

It bounced!
places223@gmail.cow

replace cow with com
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by sunilUpa »

kobe,

email sent. I agree with George. Morever I need till Tuesday to get price as my contact person is in India on vacation. I will be talking to others today, but they may not provide very good deal. Will keep you guys posted.

1. Buy the same grade as RR - Granular
2. Get the MA contact - Ray Sahebs help is needed.
3. Confirm that ordinary citizens can buy that grade here in USA.

or the option I am leaning towards,
4. Buy it from India, hand it over to IA representative in NewDelhi. - Again need Ray Sahebs help. Our Indian Jingos can contribute too.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Shankk »

Raja Bose wrote:Ask any Paki army martial ghazi what happens when cowering Hindus are provided a motivation and a mission to do something concrete.
RB, I do not want to hijack this thread so my last post on this off topic. What we are doing is merely an individual initiative. We have always done this and done this for more than a millenia. I am more interested in institutionalized efforts.

Kobe received your email. Please send me link to the google document. Thanks.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by parikh »

quikclot ACS has a disadvantage as it causes a endothermic reaction and may lead to burns

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/QuikClot

ACS+ is a better version as it limits high temperatures
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by suryag »

I was wondering what MA stood for ?? Mission Abroad ?
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

UPDATE II based on more information from Sagar Fossil Fuels

1) As reported earlier Sagar Fossil Fuels (SFF) distributes QuickClot Granular/QuickClot Original in India to RR.
2) The Granular product is not the same as ACS/ACS+ meant for the consumer market. It is not available for retail in the US it is a MILITARY SALE product.
3) The granular product is NOT the OTC while ACS is OTC in the US.
4) ACS is a single use product meant for ONE wound while RR uses Granular since in battle they have multiple wounds on a single person and a wound can assume any shape (ACS is a sponge-rectangular shape). That's why the use granules since it assumes the shape of the wound and can be used on multiple wounds (hence cost effective).
5) SFF provides pictorial, instructions in Hindi and in other regional languages like Kannada.
6) Delivery: They can reach it up to RR but given that they are a civilian outfit they need permission to travel to forward areas and present them with the "GIFT" of QuickClot. Total time to get permission and deliver the product could be up to 2 weeks.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Mort Walker »

I agree with GeorgeJ. Use the Quick Clot kit that has been standardized for use by the forces medics. From the pledges that Kobe has, about $7500 now, we can probably get 100+ kits from SFF.

My only request is that the package be accompanied with a note appreciating the work by the forces who protect democracy. We will never forget and forever grateful.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by sunilUpa »

George, thanks a lot for the info. Couple of questions,
1. Any idea about cost of granular form in Desh?
2. Can we send the funds directly to SFF from USA?
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

George J wrote:UPDATE II based on more information from Sagar Fossil Fuels

1) As reported earlier Sagar Fossil Fuels (SFF) distributes QuickClot Granular/QuickClot Original in India to RR.
2) The Granular product is not the same as ACS/ACS+ meant for the consumer market. It is not available for retail in the US it is a MILITARY SALE product.
3) The granular product is NOT the OTC while ACS is OTC in the US.
4) ACS is a single use product meant for ONE wound while RR uses Granular since in battle they have multiple wounds on a single person and a wound can assume any shape (ACS is a sponge-rectangular shape). That's why the use granules since it assumes the shape of the wound and can be used on multiple wounds (hence cost effective).
5) SFF provides pictorial, instructions in Hindi and in other regional languages like Kannada.
6) Delivery: They can reach it up to RR but given that they are a civilian outfit they need permission to travel to forward areas and present them with the "GIFT" of QuickClot. Total time to get permission and deliver the product could be up to 2 weeks.
GeorgeJ

Good information so far. (Sagar's pricing would be ideal too)

here is some pricing

is it true that Sagar Fossil Fuel charges about Rs3000 for 3.5Oz?
That is $65 to $75 per pack, (depending on currency rate).
Any online disty in USA will give you 1/2 that price.

And with a couple of days patience, we can get even better price.
So. If we can get 3:1 price difference (or three times bang for the buck),
won't it be great?

Besides, I can deliver it to the forward areas. My contact (in army) asked me, "how forward do you want to go, I can help you cross the border and bring you back". (But that is option-B).

So instead of trying to solve many issues, if we focus on first thing first (some of which you clarified using the high-tech gadget called a "phone", then we will get it done smoothly).

Pending Questions.

1) is there any BR volunteer in delhi who can ensure that kits will be purchased from Sagar Fossil Fuel at a certain price,
2) is there any BR volunteer in delhi who has connections with RR and ensures - (AKA guarantees with end user confirmation) delivery to the end user

if not,
Option B is I can get it done.
(Option B is not my first preference because I want to execute it through BR for transparency)
Last edited by kobe on 14 Apr 2009 21:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by RayC »

Kobe

Bouncing!

If you can send it direct, it is great!

That saves me the problem.

Still, I will send what my contacts state.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

RayC wrote:Kobe

Bouncing!

If you can send it direct, it is great!

That saves me the problem.

Still, I will send what my contacts state.
RayC sir,

It can not be bouncing, because I received your email
and I replied to you. Please check.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

UPDATE III

1) SFF said the cost of the product at Rs.50: $1 is about $75 (using the HT numbers I came up with 72.80)

2) SFF seems to be very enthusiastic and touched about the fact that a bunch of NRI saw the story and wanted to do something about it. Hence the offer to HAND DELIVER the product to RR. I am sure between BR Delhi Jingos or even SFF we can get them paid.

[quote="Kobe]And with a couple of days patience, we can get even better price. So. If we can get 3:1 price difference (or three times bang for the buck), won't it be great?[/quote]

From the YOUR link on QuickClot Granular: QuikClot Brand 3.5 oz. Hemostatic Agent®, Individual, Item is for Military use only!
3) This item is for Military use only!! All civilians have access to the Sport, ACS + and EMS items.
You might want to check what the difference is between Mil grade and the 10 pack granular.

Also:
According to http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf/K013390.pdf
QuickClot Granules itself (active ingredient) are approved for OTC not specific products as stated by SFF. So Milgrade or otherwise, its all OTC.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

10-pack is same product as individual,
just 10 in a box.
so min quantity applies which is 10
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

GJ/kobe,

I have emailed Boss Safety and asked them the difference (medicine/application/etc.) between the individual pack and 10-pack and why is the former listed as MIL use only. I have been trying to call Jeffrey Horn at Z-Medica (he heads their sales) using GJ's Advanced Telepathy & Technology (AT&T) to get it from the horse's mouth directly. If I can catch hold of him I will post what he tells me. If there are any questions to be asked, please let me know.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Sanju »

Kobe you have mail!

Sanju
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by Raja Bose »

Update

Just spoke with Boss Safety Systems and they said the following:

1) The QuikClot 3.5 Oz Hemostatic agent (10-pack) is also for military use only and not available for civilian purchase.

2) Z-Medica is actually planning to take the QuikClot granular form out of their product line in the near future. So they will be left with the ACS+, Combat Gauze and First Response (apart from the Sport etc. civilian versions) and the TraumaPak combos.

From the above it seems like our option is as follows:
1) Get confirmation from SFF that they have 'x' number of QuikClot granular pouches in stock (where 'x' will depend on how much we collect by Friday April 17).

2) If SFF does not have the requisite amount in stock, if they can pre-order it to save time and we trf. them the money once our collection is complete (all checks should be in the bag by next week, assuming the last check is mailed on Friday, April 17). We can give them a fair estimate based on amount pledged till now - however, here we have to assume that all who pledged will donate the amount they pledged.

3) Logistics of transferring money to SFF.

4) As per GJ's communication with them, they said it will take atleast 2 weeks to get permission to travel to the forward areas to hand deliver the kits. This is assuming they have enough in stock already and don't have to place an order to Z-Medica (add 2-3 weeks for that, if that is required plus time for them to get the custom labels etc. printed).

Any comments/thoughts/bugs/bitches/moans? :)
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by kobe »

from mexican disty 8)

apparently ACS+ is a better product, and civilians can purchase it.

RB, you have a good summary. Although final plan of action will depend on more info that is trickling in. by this weekend we will have a clear idea.
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Re: Buying Quick Clot Kits For Our Jawans - A Humble Proposal

Post by George J »

For the umpteenth time:

QuikClot ACS/ACS+ is a S_P_O_N_G_E not the granules that RR uses. GIVE THEM WHAT THEY USE not what you can get cheap. This is like the US air dropping Peanut Butter on Afghanistan during Enduring Freedom. Just coz YOU can get it does not mean that's what they WANT.

According to SFF
The RR guys have AK-47 entry and exit wounds and other IED wounds. They open up one pack of Quikclot and use it on as many wounds (and jawans) as there are. The granules take the shape of the wound and fill it. While the ACS product is a single sponge you need two packs to cover the entry and exit.
There is also a difference in the clinical effectiveness between the Granules and the ACS product but its not been empirically validated.

RB:
Great job on checking up on the 10pack granules (I see that you too have access to that advanced technology known as a phone ;-)). This basically confirms that Granules=MIL GRADE. ACS/ACS+ is consumer grade.

RayC/Mandeep/etc:
Is there an independent way to confirm from RR about the effectiveness of QuikClot or the newstory?
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