Mobile Missile / Launcher Discussion

[krishnan]

With already a well laid out extensive rail network, rail based system will be probably cheaper and reliable option. JMHO

[Jagan]

A rail based system works uniquely for India due to the sheer density of our rail network..It is the probably densest netwrk in the world of all major countries. Tracking a few "missile trains" in this network would be mighty difficult for mosty of our potential adversaries - surely China or Pakistan with their level of surveillance capabilities... ...

I Fully Agree. Not to mention that these adversaries have to tackle a network of airfields first. Targetting a specific missile train for nuk protection would be done at the peril of ignoring fixed wing aircraft delivering the same.

While it is next to impossible to disguise missile train passing through several junctions note that during the war there will be hundreds of army trains moving troops and tanks and supplies to the frontlines. a missile train would be hidden in the mass of military trains going around - similar demands for food and meat can be made for humint to assume that it is a troop train or something similar.

[Gerard]

Decoy carriages, externally identical to the TEL and command carriages but carrying regular goods, added to other trains would complicate the humint and satellite tracking.

[sunilUpa]

A question,

Despite the density of Indian Railways, don't the missiles need to go to pre-surveyed and prepared firing points for launch?

[negi]

^ The C&C center would be on the same train as the Missile itself and with the new RLG equipped missiles aided with satellite telemetry above should be taken care of.

[RayC]

It is important to realise that a mobile defence delivers a greater result that positional defence since it allows flexibility and surprise, which are essential ingredient to successfully conduct war. History is replete with such examples. Richard Simpkins can help. An allegory would be the reason why Auftragstaktik is preferred to Befelstaktik.

A rail based missile system is as good as positional defence, in that, it cannot move off the rails. I have already given reasons how such rail based missile can be tracked and it requires no elaboration to those who are conversant with the techniques.

I am unaware of the mountain based missile silos in the NE as are most of the military people I know. including Corps Commanders in the NE (whose task is to check the Chinese) I am sure the knowledge of such a deterrence being available would be a morale booster and a talking point amongst the services and would also be used in the wargames as an input! Alas, it remains a secret and known, if at all, to only a few! It is news to me. The Missile Regt was in my location and in my interaction with them, they did not tell me or maybe they, too, did not know and so it must be only known to a select few on a need to know basis and obviously, my GOC and I and the CO Missile Regt were out of the loop! Good to know that some are in the loop!

I am also not aware that we have enough nuclear platforms (and how many should that be?) that will survive the first strike. I have not seen any silos nor heard of them, or the fact that we have enough nuclear platforms already in place, though I am aware of the Missile Regts. That is the weird part of the defence forces – the need to know basis is confined only to those in uniform, while the whole world knows.

A road mobile defence system is as self contained as any other system or else there would be no Missile Regt. Being capable of moving cross country i.e. all over, it allows it better survivability, camouflage capability, flexibility and surprise.

I wonder if rail mobile system was better, why does the IA or for that matter others have rail mobile missile regiments?

A command and control element is always there, be it any mobility configuration.

Decoys are always used in every aspect of warfare, and yet............

[Duangkomon]

What if someone creates strategically placed gridlocks along the rail network to take out the mobility part of the rail based launchers during escalation??

[Jagan]

What if someone creates strategically placed gridlocks along the rail network to take out the mobility part of the rail based launchers during escalation??

and how will they do that?

[Jagan]

Havent seen this posted in the thread

http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/aug04/missile16.htm

Note that it talks about both a Road Mobile and Rail Mobile Launcher

[Gerard]

A road mobile defence system is as self contained as any other system or else there would be no Missile Regt. Being capable of moving cross country i.e. all over, it allows it better survivability, camouflage capability, flexibility and surprise.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/27/stories ... 960600.htm

Mr. Chander said, “With all the advanced technologies, it will be a state-of-the-art system.” Underlining the importance of canister-launch, he said all future Agni missions will have canister launch. Canister had nothing to do with silo or non-silo. It will basically provide mobility for launching the missile from anywhere. The missiles can be launched from a silo or through a road mobile vehicle. It was the mobility which counted for all systems.

[rachel]

Let's not do foolish comparisons to Russia or Tibet... we all know India is much more densely populated and as an open society, much more susceptible to HUMINT flows to the enemy.

Let's also be sensible and realize that missiles with enough range to hit the populated parts of China will be in the Northeast, where all infrastructure (including desnity of rail lines) is lower than the rest of the country.

Also India has much lesser number of missiles than China or Russia.

All this adds up to a very very troubling picture. Low numbers of missiles, based in a part of the country with a low rail density, combined with a poor easily bribed high-density population.

You may also add to that the fact that many insurgent groups populate the Northeast, along with very high illegal Mulsim jihadi populations from Bangladesh.

Anyone still feel secure?

[rachel]

A question,

Despite the density of Indian Railways, don't the missiles need to go to pre-surveyed and prepared firing points for launch?

How dense is it in the Northeast??

[RayC]

Gerard,

Did not open the link. Your quote of the article mentions 'road mobile'.

Says enough!

Cannister launch is 'cold launch'.

From the tactical point of view, anything static or restricted in movement is not suitable for a flexible response!

Flexible response is the key to success in battle!

[RayC]

A question,

Despite the density of Indian Railways, don't the missiles need to go to pre-surveyed and prepared firing points for launch?

How dense is it in the Northeast??

Therefore, most predictable.

But then, Somnath knows that we have silos in moutains in the NE.

That. if true, changes the complexion!

[sunilUpa]

As per Bharat Karnad, there are only two missile trains. It seems there is a 'shortage' of rolling stock to commission any more.

[Duangkomon]

What if someone creates strategically placed gridlocks along the rail network to take out the mobility part of the rail based launchers during escalation??

and how will they do that?

Let's say after careful study of the IR network along with various intelligence inputs and then running simulations they have come up with an optimal method of creating a gridlock. This would then be implemented with the help of anti nationals by placing bombs in trains and tracks meant to go off in a coordinated fashion to create this gridlock. I know its a bit too Frankenheimerish but just thought I'll put out there anyway...

[rakall]

What if someone creates strategically placed gridlocks along the rail network to take out the mobility part of the rail based launchers during escalation??

and how will they do that?

Very simple...

Hire Thomas Gabriel and create a firesale.

[sum]

I am unaware of the mountain based missile silos in the NE as are most of the military people I know. including Corps Commanders in the NE (whose task is to check the Chinese) I am sure the knowledge of such a deterrence being available would be a morale booster and a talking point amongst the services and would also be used in the wargames as an input! Alas, it remains a secret and known, if at all, to only a few! It is news to me. The Missile Regt was in my location and in my interaction with them, they did not tell me or maybe they, too, did not know and so it must be only known to a select few on a need to know basis and obviously, my GOC and I and the CO Missile Regt were out of the loop! Good to know that some are in the loop!

Dammit..i was actually hoping we were having such silos by now..

As per Bharat Karnad, there are only two missile trains. It seems there is a 'shortage' of rolling stock to commission any more.

Double dammit...

[Rahul M]

The Missile Regt was in my location and in my interaction with them, they did not tell me or maybe they, too, did not know and so it must be only known to a select few on a need to know basis and obviously, my GOC and I and the CO Missile Regt were out of the loop! Good to know that some are in the loop!

sir, obviously, unlike some, you and the above mentioned gentlemen were not 'high enough' (pun intended) !

[darshhan]

A road mobile defence system is as self contained as any other system or else there would be no Missile Regt. Being capable of moving cross country i.e. all over, it allows it better survivability, camouflage capability, flexibility and surprise.

A road mobile defence system is as self contained as any other system or else there would be no Missile Regt. Being capable of moving cross country i.e. all over, it allows it better survivability, camouflage capability, flexibility and surprise.

I agree.A road mobile truck is the most flexible land based solution.While we might have a very dense rail network , I am sure our road network is even more dense.Secondly as Rayc suggested the road vehicles(is it TELs) might even be capable of travelling cross country depending on the terrain which substantially increases the operational domain of the road mobile units.

On the other hand rail based network is limited to railway tracks which are extremely vulnerable to sabotage during wartime.In fact they might even be the prime targets for enemy attack by the way special operations forces,internal saboteurs and air strikes.

Another problem that will always be there in case of Rail mobile units is the coordination required between Indian Railways and the missile units.I will give you an example suppose the missile unit is located in some railway zone.Now the tracks in that zone will be utilized for other trains also.Without adequate planning and coordination it will be impossible to operate alongside those trains.This overhead wouldn't be there for Road mobile units.

[sum]

Interestingly, just after finishing my BR surfing session, i continued on my reading of Karnad's book and the very first sentence i read was that the GoI has already surveyed and identified sites for missile silos with a Russian team also having briefed the MoD about how the silos should be etc...

Since this is 3-4 years old info, i am guessing that missile silos construction is surely underway by now (seems France and Russia had bid for building the silo and C3 infrastructure).

[somnath]

I am unaware of the mountain based missile silos in the NE as are most of the military people I know. including Corps Commanders in the NE (whose task is to check the Chinese) I am sure the knowledge of such a deterrence being available would be a morale booster and a talking point amongst the services and would also be used in the wargames as an input! Alas, it remains a secret and known, if at all, to only a few! It is news to me. The Missile Regt was in my location and in my interaction with them, they did not tell me or maybe they, too, did not know and so it must be only known to a select few on a need to know basis and obviously, my GOC and I and the CO Missile Regt were out of the loop! Good to know that some are in the loop!

I am also not aware that we have enough nuclear platforms (and how many should that be?) that will survive the first strike. I have not seen any silos nor heard of them, or the fact that we have enough nuclear platforms already in place, though I am aware of the Missile Regts. That is the weird part of the defence forces – the need to know basis is confined only to those in uniform, while the whole world knows.

A road mobile defence system is as self contained as any other system or else there would be no Missile Regt. Being capable of moving cross country i.e. all over, it allows it better survivability, camouflage capability, flexibility and surprise.

I wonder if rail mobile system was better, why does the IA or for that matter others have rail mobile missile regiments?

A command and control element is always there, be it any mobility configuration.

Decoys are always used in every aspect of warfare, and yet............

Most likely that the CO Missile Regmt and GOC was adhering to "need to know" principles with you! source of this info is Bharat Karnad, who mentions this in his book - he talks of one already in place while another one being built...

For India, the rationale for both a road and rail mobile platform is because of the unique nature of the country's infrastructure..Indian road for most parts are not like anything either in the US, or Russia or for that matter China..The mobility of a road-based missile platform with its entire entourage will therefore be limited to roads that are able to "host" them..Remember a video on youtube about "road tests" being carried out for the Brahmos. I would suspect that the logistics for the Agni will be bigger than the Brahmos, ioncluding the security tail..

the rail infra on the other hand, is far more standardised on broad gauge lines now..This will enable a missile train to traverse the entire length from Jammu Tawi to Chennai and back to Silchar without any problem at all...Greater flexibility of movement..Dont think a road mobile platform can do that all that easily on Indian roads!!!Unless the truck sticks to the Golden Quad!! (but then what happens when it has to pass through the Bihar stretches, where the work is at a stanstill?!) A train is also a "bigger" platform for the logistics chain to "fill in", compared to roads...

the question of whether we have enough platforms is moot..In fact very disturbingly Bharat Karnad mentions that the rate of missile production in India is lesser than that in Pakistan (he doesnt count the Prithvi in this which the IA for most parts treats only like a training platform)....However, the rate of fissile material production would be adequate according to most sources...

In case the nos of missile delivery vehicles is limited, currently it probably makes sense to have more of them rail mobile than road mobile - as the former has greater mobility in the Indian context than the latter...Dovetail that with dispersed airfields all over the country, with multiple aircraft modified for weapons delivery (M2k, Su30, at a stretch Jag)...All this is pertinent in terms of maintaining a second strike capability with relatively modest means, while the sub based option comes on stream..

[RayC]

Most likely that the CO Missile Regmt and GOC was adhering to "need to know" principles with you! source of this info is Bharat Karnad, who mentions this in his book - he talks of one already in place while another one being built...

If I may correct you, in the most polite terms at my command, the military command and control structure does not have Dy GOCs out of the loop in the 'need to know' paradigm!

Bharat Karnad is a Maximalist and imaginative. The rail mobile that he speaks about is only a technology demonstrator. DRDO is known to throw in an 'extra' for the publicity and hype to be picked up by those who want to have a 'feel good' feeling and discuss it ad infintum on forums. He overrates himself wherein he debunks Kalam and Subrahmayam.

For India, the rationale for both a road and rail mobile platform is because of the unique nature of the country's infrastructure..Indian road for most parts are not like anything either in the US, or Russia or for that matter China..The mobility of a road-based missile platform with its entire entourage will therefore be limited to roads that are able to "host" them..Remember a video on youtube about "road tests" being carried out for the Brahmos. I would suspect that the logistics for the Agni will be bigger than the Brahmos, ioncluding the security tail..

Road mobile does not mean confined to roads. All military vehicles move cross country.

I won't go ino details of what is the composition of what you term as 'entire entourage'. Suffice it to say, this has been catered for and is quite efficient to do its task.

There is nothing like a 'security tail' like they have for the politicians. All equipment used in war are dovetailed in the military method of warfighting and there is inherent security in location.

the rail infra on the other hand, is far more standardised on broad gauge lines now..This will enable a missile train to traverse the entire length from Jammu Tawi to Chennai and back to Silchar without any problem at all...Greater flexibility of movement..Dont think a road mobile platform can do that all that easily on Indian roads!!!Unless the truck sticks to the Golden Quad!! (but then what happens when it has to pass through the Bihar stretches, where the work is at a stanstill?!) A train is also a "bigger" platform for the logistics chain to "fill in", compared to roads...

As I said road mobile does not mean confined to the roads.

It is adequate to state that Special rail tracks would have to be laid for an all India scenario, if the missiles would have to be fired since high tension wires would interfere.

Visit Bihar now to see the change in case you are merely talking about the structure of the road. Laloo has gone and even the fodder is safe.

the question of whether we have enough platforms is moot..In fact very disturbingly Bharat Karnad mentions that the rate of missile production in India is lesser than that in Pakistan (he doesnt count the Prithvi in this which the IA for most parts treats only like a training platform)....However, the rate of fissile material production would be adequate according to most sources...

That is Bharat Karnad's assessment. As good and reliable as George Bush's WMD in Iraq claim.

Has he gone to Pakistan and checked and has he been allowed in India to check? Intellectual dishonesty based on surmises and ill informed gossip to be reckonable as an 'authority'.

Of course, the Prithivi is just there for 'glamour' in the 'been there, done that' mode!

In case the nos of missile delivery vehicles is limited, currently it probably makes sense to have more of them rail mobile than road mobile - as the former has greater mobility in the Indian context than the latter...Dovetail that with dispersed airfields all over the country, with multiple aircraft modified for weapons delivery (M2k, Su30, at a stretch Jag)...All this is pertinent in terms of maintaining a second strike capability with relatively modest means, while the sub based option comes on stream..

Explained earlier.

[somnath]

^^^ dont know where Bharat Karnad "debunks" Kalam - dont consider criticism as anymore worse than what it is..I was referrign to the mountain based Agni silos, not railmobile Agni while quoting him. BTW, the railmobile version of the Agni has been in development for longer than the road mobiole version, so chances are that the railmobile version would be operationalised to a larger extent..

Not sure if nuclear missile carrying vehicles (and the attendant support vehicles) can be true off-roaders - at least the truck-platfrms one sees with our Agnis dont seem to be off road types at all. But I might be mistaken. Security inherent in "location"? Here is a super sophisiticated missile carrying a nuke warhead on the road, and there wont be proximate security for it while its on the move?

High tension wires interfering with launch? To start with only about 25% of the lines are electrified...More importantly, CAnt they be launched in inclined modes? Or the launch platform slided out first before launch? Plus the power in the relevant section can easily be "taken out" before launch...Given that we have been developiong the railmobile for so long, it should have been taken care of in terms of procedure - doesnt seem all that complicated..

One does not need to "go to Pakistan" to ascertain force levels, just as one doesnt need to go Tarapur to ascertain production of fissile material in India..There is enough open source stuff, including leaks by the govt to arrive at conclusions..95% of intel analysis is from open source...Bharat Karnad may be dishonest and all that, he gives his sources..What are yours?

As for the Prithvi - any number of analysts, including ex military officers have opined on its unsuitability as a second srtike nuke platform. Short range (hence escalatory in its deployment), liquid fuel, longer logisitics chain - all of this point out towards Prithvi being consdiered not optimal for nuclear delivery..It has nuclear "capability", but not most probably nuclear deployment..Remember the famous case during Gujral's time when movement of the Prithvis to Jalandhar created a mini crisis in global capital? You dont want your second strike platforms to be so "escalatory", if you know what I mean..

there are lots of references if you read, but one here..

Added later:

I did travel on the Gaya-Dhanbad road last year - seemed they wanted to build a highway with the funding of the PM's gram sadak yojana!

[vasu_ray]

regarding electrified lines, a train can be backed into a loop line that is not electrified, the loco itself remains on the electrified line, these loop lines are available and can be built at a number of locations, even if electrified these 'tiny' segments can also be tripped

however all electric locos can be stopped if nodal substations on the grid are taken out, not sure if one has APU's on electric locos, now diesel locos on electrified lines stand out

cross country military trailers make dispersal and camouflage easier, they should also be compact enough to be rail transportable

[somnath]

however all electric locos can be stopped if nodal substations on the grid are taken out, not sure if one has APU's on electric locos, now diesel locos on electrified lines stand out

Not really, long distance goods trains (as well as passenger trains) often have diesel locos, as they pass through stretches without electrified tracks..

[vasu_ray]

since these missiles are built to withstand lightning strikes, can they withstand conduction from a high tension line say as the plume (from launch) blows onto adjacent electric lines due to wind conditions?

[somnath]

^^ They should..But IMHO its far simpler to simply switch off the electricity in that section..Pretty easy to do..

[rakall]

As of now under-sea leg of the deterrence does not exist.. it is atleast a decade away from becoming operational..

Until that beccomes available (and even after that becomes available) - we will need all possible forms of deterrence.. aircraft launched, silos, road mobile, rail mobile.. the more the options & dispersal - the tougher it is for the enemy.. Even when the SLBM's become operational -- cannot depend on that alone.. Atleast until we have half a dozen SSBN's with A3-SLBM or A5-SLBM -- which is atleast 2decades away, all options will be open..

As was evident -- both rail mobile & road mobile systems have been tested extensively.. The shortcoming, if any, would have been identified and attended to..

Debate as we must - there will not be a conclusion, as to whether which is better.. Bcoz besides the fact that both exist and have been tested, we dont have data on how many exist or what are the features of each system..

The strategic forces command will not just resort to using the rail mobile or road mobile system bcoz DRDO has made it.. if there was serious flaw in any one system - rail or road, they would have passed the offer and stuck to the system which they feel is better.. If strategic forces command is sticking to both options (besides aircraft delivery & silos) -- it means they understand the utility of both systems (despite any shortcomings), and it is better to disperse your second strike capability over the geography as well as delivery modes...

Half a dozen SSBN's wit escorting SSN's and a system of decoys & AUV's is atleast 2decades away.... so it is atleast 2decades before we can even start contemplating eliminating either the road mobile or rail mobile delivery mode..

So just chill & wait for what the next 48hours will unveil... Let the trouble be the enemy's.

[rakall]

regarding electrified lines, a train can be backed into a loop line that is not electrified, the loco itself remains on the electrified line, these loop lines are available and can be built at a number of locations, even if electrified these 'tiny' segments can also be tripped

Not necessary.. All stations (even the small ones) have a branch line which branches away from the main lines -- generally located after the platform... this line is not electrified -- and ends with a makeshift crash barrier type of setting... almost as if a train with brake failure can come and crash into it -- or so it looks like.. Every station has this small branch line..

So even when the rail mobile system is on electrified lines -- the launch can take place at any station.

[somnath]

^^^Rakall, exactly - as many platforms dispersed as possible..thats the only way to max the utility out of a modest arsenal for secnod strike..

[Kersi D]

Use a satellite!

How can you track a train on real time basis using satellites which looks like any other passenger/goods train on the rail and will be passing though different geographic location while on move , and how many can you track in real time dispersed all over country , not to mention quite a few dummy systems also on the move . Care to explain ?

Though OT, here is an answer.

Anything on rails becomes a rigid weapons platform, which means that it will have to be confined to the rails.
.

But we have 50,000+ km of rail lines !! We will have to set up "launching sites at soem predetermined places. these launching sites may simply be a small spur off the rail line.

I think US studied it a long time back, maybe in 1960s. They had some detailed discussions and made some studies with the help of AMTRAK

K

[SaiK]

Location on sea is not predictable to the extent it is for rail!

Sorry sir! apologies on behalf of BReapers, for having changed the title of this thread.

Q: why was this thread title changed?

upping the ante!

India's Nuclear Triad in Sights as INS Arihant Preps for First Missile Test
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indias-n ... est-780415

NEW DELHI: The indigenously made nuclear submarine - INS Arihant - will fire its first missile, also made in India, this year to formally complete the nuclear triad for India, according to top defence research officials. Arihant will also go for its first deep sea dive soon, giving India the ability to launch a nuclear missile from air, land and sea.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, the newly appointed Director General of Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO,) Dr S Christopher said that India is in the process of building two more Arihant-class-submarines.

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The firing of the indigenously made missile is capable of delivering a nuclear pay load, an important milestone for India's defence production. It signifies the completion nuclear triad. The missile code named B-05 will be India's first Submarine launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM).

"If all goes well we will show case this capability in the International Fleet Review (IFR) next January. DRDO is working on the next SLBM code named "K-4" which will have a much longer range," Dr Christopher said.

Nuclear submarines are strategic assets and typically stay deep inside the sea ready to launch in case of nuclear strike. This is critical since India follows doctrine of no first use of nuclear weapons.

While Dr Christopher refused to disclose the ranges and pay load carrying capability of either of two SLBMs developed by India, information available in the open domain indicate that the B- 05 can carry a one tonne war head.

In comparison China has five nuclear submarines, Shang Class, who fire the Julang -2 missiles which are believed to have a range of 8000 Km.

India is also likely to carry out a third test for Agni- V this December, the missile has a range of over 5500 kilometres. By perfecting this technology, India will join the elite group of countries that have Inter-Continental Ballistics Missiles (ICBM). About 6 countries claim apart from North Korea claim to have ICBM.

According to Dr Christopher, three successive successful test of Agni- V would clear the decks for the induction of the missile into the military.

[member_28108]

Regarding rail system the US had actually planned to have their minuteman missiles on a rail systems being switched from a group of silo's and sos silo launches but I think it was shelved due to the SALT treaty. The development of the same was vividly described in TIMES magazine

[member_28108]

One other thing is the assumption that the silo's and launches need to be in the NE. This is based on the assumption that the A5 range is 5000 Kms . Now that is a declared range and would obviously be not true. Also not every target will be in Heibei. So the actually needed range to destination will be different than what we are all speculating.

[Philip]

Our rail network is massive and there could be dozens of potential sites where the missile rakes can be located/hidden in caverns and pop out when needed. Decoys are easy to fashion.However,we should plan for a large number of locations in the NEast not just for the strat. forces but also for tactical SSMs like Prahar,BMos,Prithvi-2s,Shaurya-land version of K-15,etc.

[SaiK]

rail network may have "potential" (not sites/imho) to do mobile launching but it is still a predictable duck.