Mobile Missile / Launcher Discussion

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Jul 2009 11:38

Location on sea is not predictable to the extent it is for rail!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2009 14:01

RayC wrote:Location on sea is not predictable to the extent it is for rail!

How many countries in the world can Identify , Tag ,Track and Attack a mobile target in real time or near real time probably none , not even US can claim to have such capability , their boast apart.

A Rail mobile system if not stationary or limited to specific location during peace time and conducts the same type of deterrent patrol as a submarine does can provide the same level of assured retaliation as a submarine would do and perhaps would be cost effective option as well , and during the first sign of trouble can quickly disperse

IMVHO for a vast country like India with broadguage dense rail network and different land geography that provide good cover it is impossible to tag such systems on the move and these systems can be ready to fire in under 5 -6 minutes on receiving of orders.

More ever rail system are not limited by size restriction and even Heavy ICBM can be carried without the size restriction imposed by submarine.

A submarine is a complicated system , requiring expensive and technologically intensive across the board quietening measure to provide a reasonably assurance that they are not being tagged while on deterrent patrol specially when the sea is filled with so many hunter sharks, we are at the first step of this evolutionary process and will require quite a few years before our submarine based system matures , with the right sub , missile and right warhead to compliment for a credible sub based deterrent.

Till such time a rail mobile system is the best bet.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Jul 2009 14:11

Use a satellite!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2009 14:16

RayC wrote:Use a satellite!

How can you track a train on real time basis using satellites which looks like any other passenger/goods train on the rail and will be passing though different geographic location while on move , and how many can you track in real time dispersed all over country , not to mention quite a few dummy systems also on the move . Care to explain ?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Jul 2009 14:22

Austin wrote:
RayC wrote:Use a satellite!
How can you track a train on real time basis using satellites which looks like any other passenger/goods train on the rail and will be passing though different geographic location while on move , and how many can you track in real time dispersed all over country , not to mention quite a few dummy systems also on the move . Care to explain ?

Simple!

It cannot be tucked into a container or a wagon!

It will have to be on a flatbed! Or organised in such a way that it can be used immediately.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2009 14:42

good try Ray sir!

but you must recall most of us here have seen some videos since pulled from
youtube by 'kashsoldier' about a very ordinary looking train in different parts of
india with a sliding roof over the goods wagon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... museum.jpg

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 18:52

Austin wrote:
RayC wrote:Use a satellite!
How can you track a train on real time basis using satellites which looks like any other passenger/goods train on the rail and will be passing though different geographic location while on move , and how many can you track in real time dispersed all over country , not to mention quite a few dummy systems also on the move . Care to explain ?

Though OT, here is an answer.

Anything on rails becomes a rigid weapons platform, which means that it wil have to be confined to the rails.

Such a mobile weapons platform will not be similar to any passenger or good trains since it would required to be fired and so will be configured on a flatbed in the similar fashion as the road mobile launcher.

Therefore, satellites can spot it.

In the mobilisation period and in war, it will be of utmost importance for the adversary to keep a tab on these missiles and their location through all means of intelligence available to them.

Even in this forum, there are many who know where the missile regiments are. Therefore, the adversary would surely know. In Op Parakrama, their move to their op locations, it is believed, was followed closely by the Pakistani intelligence.

Missiles are not deployed individually, but are organised in Missile Regts. The missile are not scattered all over the country, well at least till now and in the foreseeable future. I also wonder if the Defence Budget will be able to match the number of missiles or the organisation that say, the US has, wherein such units can be located around the country.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Jul 2009 18:59

Also that given the very few numbers of missiles deployed in India's case, there is likely to be a humint element following each missile at all times.
Even a rail car based system, will likely be of a constant configuration, say x numbers of bogies, satellites might spot some differences in the nature of the rail cars and continue to identify the rail car easily whereever it goes.

India does not have a vast empty area like Delinga in tibet, where for several hundred kilometers, there is no civilization, and where the missiles can be dispursed to avoid crippling loss in a first attack.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 22 Jul 2009 19:29

@ RayC

Rail based mobile launchers need not to be carried on a Flat Bed.

I did saw recently one similar rail based missile Launcher.It comes with a compartment length of around 18-20m( i didnt scaled it.its my estimate). and is integrated with a similar sized compartment .bot these compartments comes with a top hatch which provides enough room for the missile and the launcher when it stands up 90degree.

and i was told that these highly

special cargo onlee travel on a pre-surveyed lines.

No matter what.......a train carrying a missile will never travel on a flat bed. if it does.....no point of having a rail based launching capability.

Another thing is that these special lines are high speed links onlee.

And no chance for a spy sat to detect and track this special cargo.since it almost resembles like another goods carrier/passenger coach.
In the event of a war.....these cargos will be dispatched to every corner of the country .and when Ready 1 , 2 , 3 counts they open their hatches and booooom.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 19:58

One has to keep in mind that the exhaust stream typically has a temperature of 2,400 Kelvin and a velocity of over 2,500 meters per second. Additionally, it includes highly abrasive particles and active chemical agents. Whatever system is used to dissipate the missile exhaust, it must be able to withstand strong pressure waves, not only for the brief time between motor ignition and weapon departure, but it must also be able to handle the complete burn of the rocket motor with the weapon restrained in the canister in the event of accident.

I wonder if a 'cold launch' is feasible.

The only rail-based ICBM, I believe and correct me if I am wrong, ever deployed was developed by Yuzhnoye in the Ukraine. I believe it has been retired.

It is also worth consideration if an AGNI can be tucked inside a normal passenger compartment like bogey or a goods bogey, so as to resemble a 'normal' train!

If the missile in the compartment is to be lifted, imagine the length required to allow the AGNI to lift through 90 degrees and the size of the hatch to allow it to come in position! The only way it can so happen is there is a swivel hatch and the swivel rear.

Anyway, I don't wish to derail this thread and instead keep it on rail.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2009 20:16

Russia has fielded lots of rail based missiles. venting arrangement for hot launch can be arranged. and moreover it will be used onlee once
to deliver a nuclear payload.

our A2/A1 rail TELs look like normal maal-gari to me.

how is the humint supposed to keep up with a train unless they have a spotter in every village along possible routes who know precisely what to look for?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 20:19

Yes, it is a Russian missile made in Ukraine.

It took 12 years.

If mobile launchers is the answer, then the vehicle based launcher does the trick and has greater flexibility.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 22 Jul 2009 20:29

Gagan wrote:Also that given the very few numbers of missiles deployed in India's case, there is likely to be a humint element following each missile at all times.
Even a rail car based system, will likely be of a constant configuration, say x numbers of bogies, satellites might spot some differences in the nature of the rail cars and continue to identify the rail car easily whereever it goes.

.

On the contrary the the rail car system looks very much like a normal good train... it is not easy to distinguish if you see it from a 200mts distance (that was was it looked like in the video).. the one we saw in the video that disappeared -- had a lot of bogies.. just that the rail car TEL was embedded in the middle..

RayC wrote:One has to keep in mind that the exhaust stream typically has a temperature of 2,400 Kelvin and a velocity of over 2,500 meters per second. Additionally, it includes highly abrasive particles and active chemical agents. Whatever system is used to dissipate the missile exhaust, it must be able to withstand strong pressure waves, not only for the brief time between motor ignition and weapon departure, but it must also be able to handle the complete burn of the rocket motor with the weapon restrained in the canister in the event of accident.

I wonder if a 'cold launch' is feasible.

The only rail-based ICBM ever deployed was developed by Yuzhnoye in the Ukraine. I believe it has been retired.

It is also worth consideration if an AGNI can be tucked inside a normal passenger compartment like bogey or a goods bogey, so as to resemble a 'normal' train!

If the missile in the compartment is to be lifted, imagine the length required to allow the AGNI to lift through 90 degrees and the size of the hatch to allow it to come in position!

Anyway, I don't wish to derail this thread and instead keep it on rail.

The Agni has been test fired from both road mobile TEL's and rail car TEL's during the tests at Chandipur.. the rail mobile TEL has the necessary blast deflectors etc and the suspension is modified to take the additional load..

There is no hatch.. the upper cover just slides back and then the missile can be erected.. obviously this particular bogie needs to be 22-24mts long -- which might be a little longer than normal passenger bogie (which might be 15-18mts).. but it resembled just like another normal wagon bogie in a long wagon train..

There was a video (~15mins) that leaked.. it was pulled off youtube and some of us saw that video -- before that none of us even imagined that the cunning yindoos actually managed to test the Agni2 rail mobile TEL for mobility across India.. I atleast wanted to post a couple of screen shots, if not the video, but damn - i cant locate it on my HD..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 20:30

Thank you for the info.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 22 Jul 2009 20:43

Singha wrote:Russia has fielded lots of rail based missiles. venting arrangement for hot launch can be arranged. and moreover it will be used onlee once
to deliver a nuclear payload.

our A2/A1 rail TELs look like normal maal-gari to me.

how is the humint supposed to keep up with a train unless they have a spotter in every village along possible routes who know precisely what to look for?

Simple onlee... to make use of Railway traffic computer. IR has no security procedure to protect its servers/network from spoof and interception devices. Or just few rupiya to grease a dozen moles in every railway junction station.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 22 Jul 2009 20:49

Err but it wont necessarily say 'Agni Express' on the computers would it? It could simply be one of the hundreds of trains IA would commandeer during crisis.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 22 Jul 2009 20:52

Also you need to concentrate on Non-Electrified rail lines. I suppose agni cannot be used in Electrified routes

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 21:11

It is not difficult for humint to find out where A or B is heading.

When a Militray Special moves (it is not commandeered and we pay for it), at stations where we have to collect the fresh and meat, an indent is sent so that the fresh and meat can be picked up. Therefore, there is an increase in the demand on the Supply Depot and the contractors are placed the demand with. The contractor and his workers could be 'sleeper agents' or bought up.

Whether missilies are moving or normal troops, the spy is alerted and he feeds the info!

Somewhere along the line the Missiles have to move and this demand of fresh and meat is a giveaway and standing at the platform one can make out what is moving.

Also, at the IR train movement cell, we indent for trains with the unit that is moving. Anyone there can be a humint source!

I apologise but this thread is going off on a tangent.

RahulM or any other software savvy Mod, please move this to some new thread or merged it eslewhere.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Jul 2009 21:38

RayC wrote:Supply Depot and the contractors are placed the demand with. The contractor and his workers could be 'sleeper agents' or bought up.

Yes the venerable supply depot, is usually the one where humint gets maximum info from. Here, one can get info on troop movements, strength of the troop movement, itinerary, even likely destination.

But wrt rail mobile launchers, these will likely be attached to a home base, and be spending their time in a localized region, not across the length and breadth of the country.
Every cantonement will have to have railway sheds to house this detachment, with some basic repair equipment.
These missile will not be fired off from anywhere, there will be likely rail tracks on pre-surveyed locations.
There will have to be enough troops to set up a protective cordon of the entire train should the need arise.
This is not a small isolated detachment we are talking about. At least 4 - 5 bogies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2009 21:42

>> Every cantonement will have to have railway sheds

most cantonments I have seen are connected to railway lines to
facilitate easy loading of heavy equipment. some addl infra would
be needed as in a base-within-base where the nukular payloads and
guard detail would reside.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 22:12

Singha wrote:>> Every cantonement will have to have railway sheds

most cantonments I have seen are connected to railway lines to
facilitate easy loading of heavy equipment. some addl infra would
be needed as in a base-within-base where the nukular payloads and
guard detail would reside.

Mobile lauchers will be in hardened shelters with the rails there to join the main line.

It will be area specific.

What you have seen are military sidings with ramps to load vehicles, tanks and artillery guns.

Sadly, all cannotments don't have them!

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 22 Jul 2009 22:19

It still exists. Please find the link for the video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2zxDVpGbGw

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Jul 2009 22:31

There was a video (~15mins) that leaked.. it was pulled off youtube and some of us saw that video -- before that none of us even imagined that the cunning yindoos actually managed to test the Agni2 rail mobile TEL for mobility across India.. I atleast wanted to post a couple of screen shots, if not the video, but damn - i cant locate it on my HD..

Whether or not screenshots should be posted is another matter. Was it officially released into the public domain? I don't recall seeing a photo of the rail-TEL carriage anywhere in the press.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jul 2009 22:36

NO - please do not post it.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 22 Jul 2009 22:39

It still exists. Please find the link for the video :

Flatbed!

Maybe I missed it, but the launch was vehicle based.

I could be wrong.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jul 2009 23:48

ray sir, please check PM.

thanks for the splitting archan.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 00:10

I recall seeing such a video on youtube. It was basically a pixelated, out of focus video probably shot using a mobile camera.
It showed a couple of green colored bogies. I had seen it carefully then and my impression was that these were the usual Army passenger bogies that we see all the time. Nothing special about them. There was no bogie there with reinforced chasis or sealed off windows as most would suspect.
My impression was that someone got over excited and posted a video of what was not real maal.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Jul 2009 00:15

That is not the video we are referring to.
This was a clip from DRDO showing the Agni-2 rail mobility trial.

The original poster removed it shortly afterwards. It is unclear if they ever released it officially and folk were uncomfortable having it out there.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 00:22

If it is not released officially, then don't post it please.
Although, the chinese, the pakistanis, and other world powers probably know what it looks like.
But it does not look proper.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Jul 2009 00:28

Yes, if we had seen a photo of the carriage anywhere in the press, there would be no problem.
But we have not.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 01:40

But I had seen a picture in TOI a few years back of a 'free fall nuclear bomb' on display somewhere I think in pragati maidan or at a def expo.
Now how much ever I search, I can't find that photo on the net.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jul 2009 08:26

I think it is not too difficult to deploy and operationalise a battery of rail and road mobile AGNI-XX series launchers , specially when the new 3Sl or V series is supposed to be more stubbier than the AGNI-II series.The sea based missiles will be primarily for delivering the nukes while we can have the IA use the road and rail based one's for supplementing ARTY or even SHORAD type batteries which of course will deliver mostly conventional explosives.

By maintaining a diverse array of platforms for our primary long range missiles we can strengthen our doctrine of No first Use and guarantee the survivability of the 'package' to be delivered even in an event of a preemptive attack .

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jul 2009 09:34

The issue that one has bear with the rail based missiles or for that matter, guns, is that they have to move on predicted routes.

They have to remain in hardened pens or in such pens within the mountains when not in use. They cannot be out in the open since they can be destroyed in the first strike.

Therefore, such pens can always be under surveillance by enemy agents when a mobilisation is ordered and the move of the rail based missile could be tracked and targeted.

They could possibly be used for the second strike.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 23 Jul 2009 10:05

>>>The issue that one has bear with the rail based missiles or for that matter, guns, is that they have to move on predicted routes.

If I am not mistaken, these missile carriers are BOTH rail as well as road mobile. i.e., the rail wagons are fitted with tyres also to be taken off the rails and move on road..I don't remember where I read it. If I find it, I shall post it.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Jul 2009 10:09

^^^ We already have hardened "nuke pens" in the North Eastern Himalayas...

The efficacy of rail-based missiles is also w.r.t the adversary that we are facing..Neither China nor Pakistan has the caopability, at least nothing visible in the publuic domain, to track a few railroad cars among many thousands..As also the density of the rail network (one of the highest in the world, denser than China)..Makes it tough for them to get a lock-on, and then track (considering the fact that it may be always on the move)..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jul 2009 10:11

You are referring to the Agni 3 TEL which parades on the R day parade. This is a TEL which has road tyres, and has shock absorbers at both ends like railway cars.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2009 11:09

Every country builds system according to its own needs and experience. While technologically advanced countries like US , UK,France and Russia continue to invest and maintain a powerful SSBN force which has become a corner stone of their strategic deterrence, incase of India we should for a couple of decade focus on building our unique Rail Mobile and Road mobile system and let it become the corner stone of our strategic deterrence , and continue to develop and advance our SSBN system

Submarine is a very high technology , complex and expensive system to build , operate and man , hence you find countries spending billions of $$ in developing such system and many more billions in platform that can hunt it , not to mention extensive surface and subsurface Surveillance and Tripwire facility across the world to track it round the clock as much as possible.

Submarine specially SSBN of lesser mortal countries like India and China will always be under surveillance as much possible by the powers that be , and in the event of war the first target to be knocked out of business , these SSBN any way do not have their own elaborate defensive systems except for their own Silence and Tactics.

All in all our mileage will vary with a boomer depending on who are adversary are , not to mention this is a new domain we are entering into and it will take time to build the right set of crews and gain operational experience , with a limitation imposed by our own failure of TN device which restricts our ability to carry the light Bum which matters with the right range , so much of a critical factor for sub based detterence

Rail mobile system on the contrary are cost effective less of technologically demanding system , it imposes practically no restriction on the Mizzzle size/weight they can carry which means a larger Throw Up weight with a bigger bang of boosted fission is possible.

Rails system can be completely autonomous with all supplies etc and can operate for weeks if need be on deterrent patrol and their long legs can reach to the extent as broad gauge service extends in India which is deep , wide and dense.

It is also immune from any kind of surveillance and tracking in real time and the terrain ,valleys , ghats , tunnel and changing landscape etc on the way can provide a good means to outfox such surveillance , having a couple of dummy system run around can all but make such surveillance task impossible.

Even if few of these bogies do get positively tagged by hostile nation , hitting such a target which is protected by Airdefence Network of our country makes the job that much harder , and not to mention such bogies can have their own minimalist defensive/countermeasures system in place as space is not an issue.

Although it is still essential to have a triad in place and continue to develop systems and technology which we are new to like submarines , but for the next 2 -3 decades rail mobile systems should become a corner stone of our strategic deterrence and money should be spent wisely on developing this cost effective system.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jul 2009 12:00

Land based systems like the missiles in silos are targetable and hence their effectiveness as first strike is a question mark unless the aggressor is doubtful.

The SLBM are basically second strike since they are relatively less detectable.

Road mobile systems in India make sense, when viewed given the economy and the state of indigenous submarine development progress.

A rail based system cannot lie out in the open. It will require hardened pens or even hidden in mountain side pens so as to make them immune in a relative manner. I am not aware of the costs.

A railbased system has its inherent disadvantage. Since I have not been able to explain it, may I take the example of the Bofors Gun. Why is it superior to other guns? Not only because of its range and delivery of a higher TNT content, but because it can ‘Scoot and Shoot’. In other words, the Bofor has a high survivability against Counter Bombardment.

What is the survivability quotient of a system that is slave to rails?

What other countries have deployed the rail based missiles?

If inimical countries can take on our SLBMs which have more flexibility than the rigid parameters of a rail based system, how is it that they will fail in this rigid context of rails? How is the road mobile launcher inferior to the rail base one?

I concede that the rail based is cheaper than submarines. Is the rail based missiles cheaper than road based?

Yet, my country’s sovereignty is not on finances!

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 Jul 2009 12:41

May be there will be 10 coaches to carry each of the Agni missiles and they will get shunted all across the countryside and yards to deceive the enemy in order to survive preemptive strikes?!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Jul 2009 12:46

A rail based system works uniquely for India due to the sheer density of our rail network..It is the probably densest netwrk in the world of all major countries. Tracking a few "missile trains" in this network would be mighty difficult for mosty of our potential adversaries - surely China or Pakistan with their level of surveillance capabilities...And we aklready have mountain-dug missile silos in the NE..

Further in a NFU policy, what we need to cater for is that we have enough nuke platforms that survive the first strike..And have enough platforms ready always...That means an SSBN sub fleet of at least three - one on each seaboard and one in reserve...That will take many years to build...A road mobile deterrence is less "self contained" in logisitical terms than a rail based one...A dispersed network of rail based missiles and road based ones would provide the deterrence till the SSBNs start coming on in numbers...