INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 Jan 2014 15:22

The first one is likely the Chakra and the second one is a Kilo(Sindhughosh) class. Not sure why people assumed either were the INS Arihant.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jan 2014 15:38

abhik wrote:The first one is likely the Chakra and the second one is a Kilo(Sindhughosh) class. Not sure why people assumed either were the INS Arihant.

Because this pic of Arihant is imprinted in a jingos mind

See the similarities now with that shitty model ???

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 Jan 2014 17:05

^^^
Don't know what you are getting at, I mean apart from the paint scheme I don't seen any similarities. Its quite clearly a Kilo class(In fact even the first one probably is). The silhouette is different, the model lacks the front horizontal fin(sorry if this is not the correct terminology) which the Arihant has on the conning tower, it also lacks tail top vertical fin, a tell tail sign that it is kilo. You guys need to cut the IN some slack, how much effort do you want them to expend on something which most people won't look at for more than 10 seconds. I bet the aam junta are mighty impressed with the mijjile shooting out of the top of the first sub and the chrome plated front of the first

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Jan 2014 18:21

The announcer did mention its indigenous construction and refrained from taking name. I don't think they will parade Kilo after the accidents.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jan 2014 21:19

There were some earlier reports that the second Akula-2 under negotiation will feature some of the tech of the Yasen class.Here is a US naval intel report that says that the sub is practically "invulnerable". Good diagram in the link.

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/01/sever ... -pentagon/

Severodvinsk submarine already causes headache to Pentagon

Americans have recently launched the newest aircraft carrier Gerald Ford which is incidentally, the first in 40 years. As usual, in such cases optimism remains high.

Especially,when a bottle of champagne on board of the ship was smashed by Susan Ford, the youngest child and only daughter of the 38th U.S. President Gerald Ford.

Shipbuilders and admirals appreciated the giant hulk, which according to them, absorbed all the most advanced military-technical bells and whistles and they already cost US taxpayers $14 billion.

But Pentagon officials suffered a rookie ship over bumps: for the aircraft catapults it remains weak. Moreover, the ship’s radar is unreliable. A sound conclusion has already been reached that “Ford” is even weaker than it’s predecessors. Besides, some experts at the U.S. Defense Department need to redesign many portions of the ship.

And then there’s Congress Accounting Office which found that the ship cost increased by 22% compared to the initial estimates.

Against this background,clenched teeth criticism began to be sounded from the Pentagon about K-329 Severodvinsk, a Yasen-class nuclear attack submarine of the Russian Navy.

In the Western press, some military experts having weighed fatty compliments, termed the Russian submarine “practically invulnerable”.

Both Pentagon and western media say, “By taking on K-329 Severodvinsk’s board Russia took the lead in submarine technology,” “the end of the Test Suitable Diving Submarine”, “K-329 Severodvinsk means that Russia has gone far ahead in submarine technology,” “Performances of the new submarine is such that it almost is impossible to detect in the oceans, making K-329 Severodvinsk virtually invulnerable in the face of the latest anti-weapons systems etc. ”

And one of the employees of Naval Intelligence was even more explicit: “The first appearance of the new Russian submarine aroused concern in the U.S. because we do not know even half of what’s on board of K-329 Severodvinsk “.

But one thing is already known. That is that Russian submarine K-329 Severodvinsk has reduced the level of the acoustic field which will be difficult to detect. The project also has a special feature – a mixed system design when light body “covers” only a part of the pressure hull in the bow of the submarine in order to reduce noise.

First torpedo tubes are not in front of the ship. And for the central control compartment, allowing to place the antenna in the bow of a new sonar system, which “sees” far under water. For missile weapons are used eight vertical launchers.

K-329 Severodvinsk went to sea at the factory sea trials on December 1, 2013.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jan 2014 22:25

abhik wrote:^^^
Don't know what you are getting at, I mean apart from the paint scheme I don't seen any similarities. Its quite clearly a Kilo class(In fact even the first one probably is). The silhouette is different, the model lacks the front horizontal fin(sorry if this is not the correct terminology) which the Arihant has on the conning tower, it also lacks tail top vertical fin, a tell tail sign that it is kilo. You guys need to cut the IN some slack, how much effort do you want them to expend on something which most people won't look at for more than 10 seconds. I bet the aam junta are mighty impressed with the mijjile shooting out of the top of the first sub and the chrome plated front of the first

Why would IN display the Kilo class ???

I bet the aam junta doesn't even know WTF is that thing protruding out of that shitty model and yes it looks disgusting.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Jan 2014 01:16

Philip wrote:There were some earlier reports that the second Akula-2 under negotiation will feature some of the tech of the Yasen class.Here is a US naval intel report that says that the sub is practically "invulnerable". Good diagram in the link.

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/01/sever ... -pentagon/

What naval intel report?

As for the Russians taking a 'lead in submarine technology', the article certainly overdoes it - the Virginia-class is in its third iteration having entered service less than a decade ago.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jan 2014 02:28

Compared to the tableu shown in the rehearsal

The actual one showed in the RD, was not that bad.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Jan 2014 02:37

We got suckered by the tendency of our folks for last minute jugaad OR likely they didnt deck up the model to prevent any damage for the main parade.

DRDO one still sucked though. But the Arjun MK2 looked awesome.

Really liked the parade - everyone represented from thambis to the gurkhas to the sikh regiment. And the names of officers from different regions proudly marching with their assigned regiments from different areas, an identity which they will carry proudly. The veterans even at their age were smartly turned out and deserving of all our respect. Didn't see the awards ceremony yet, as its always the most moving.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Jan 2014 02:41

Philip wrote:There were some earlier reports that the second Akula-2 under negotiation will feature some of the tech of the Yasen class.Here is a US naval intel report that says that the sub is practically "invulnerable". Good diagram in the link.

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/01/sever ... -pentagon/

Severodvinsk submarine already causes headache to Pentagon

Americans have recently launched the newest aircraft carrier Gerald Ford which is incidentally, the first in 40 years. As usual, in such cases optimism remains high.

Especially,when a bottle of champagne on board of the ship was smashed by Susan Ford, the youngest child and only daughter of the 38th U.S. President Gerald Ford.

Shipbuilders and admirals appreciated the giant hulk, which according to them, absorbed all the most advanced military-technical bells and whistles and they already cost US taxpayers $14 billion.

But Pentagon officials suffered a rookie ship over bumps: for the aircraft catapults it remains weak. Moreover, the ship’s radar is unreliable. A sound conclusion has already been reached that “Ford” is even weaker than it’s predecessors. Besides, some experts at the U.S. Defense Department need to redesign many portions of the ship.

And then there’s Congress Accounting Office which found that the ship cost increased by 22% compared to the initial estimates.

Against this background,clenched teeth criticism began to be sounded from the Pentagon about K-329 Severodvinsk, a Yasen-class nuclear attack submarine of the Russian Navy.

In the Western press, some military experts having weighed fatty compliments, termed the Russian submarine “practically invulnerable”.

Both Pentagon and western media say, “By taking on K-329 Severodvinsk’s board Russia took the lead in submarine technology,” “the end of the Test Suitable Diving Submarine”, “K-329 Severodvinsk means that Russia has gone far ahead in submarine technology,” “Performances of the new submarine is such that it almost is impossible to detect in the oceans, making K-329 Severodvinsk virtually invulnerable in the face of the latest anti-weapons systems etc. ”

And one of the employees of Naval Intelligence was even more explicit: “The first appearance of the new Russian submarine aroused concern in the U.S. because we do not know even half of what’s on board of K-329 Severodvinsk “.

But one thing is already known. That is that Russian submarine K-329 Severodvinsk has reduced the level of the acoustic field which will be difficult to detect. The project also has a special feature – a mixed system design when light body “covers” only a part of the pressure hull in the bow of the submarine in order to reduce noise.

First torpedo tubes are not in front of the ship. And for the central control compartment, allowing to place the antenna in the bow of a new sonar system, which “sees” far under water. For missile weapons are used eight vertical launchers.

K-329 Severodvinsk went to sea at the factory sea trials on December 1, 2013.

Yes Phillip, as you well know US ships and technology are just junk. We do struggle, don't we? However, those Russians are so far superior they are invincible! And gosh let's not even begin to get into aircraft. I don't know how the US is going to survive in case of a mash up. We lose all of our battles and everything don't we?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jan 2014 09:36

Padma Shri for BARC Director - The Hindu

Sekhar Basu, director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre and chief executive of the Nuclear Recycle Board, has been conferred the Padma Shri award.

Dr. Basu has headed the BARC facilities in Kalpakkam since 1988, and is one of the architects of the 80 MWt compact pressurised water reactors that will power Arihant, the country’s nuclear-powered submarine.

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 28 Jan 2014 18:44

{Your post has been deleted. Please don't attack other posters}

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Feb 2014 18:53

An interesting write up on Indian nuclear submarine program ( use translator )

http://vpk-news.ru/articles/18915

But what struck me was the Reactor info for Arihant from BARC

The reactor of the type PWR (Pressurised Water Reactor), designed BARC. Prototype earned in 2004 on the territory of Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research in Chennai. Apparently, he is the type of land and ship variants requires processing documentation for manufacturing. The reactor 13 has fuel assemblies, each of the pins 348. The length of the reactor compartment - 42 meters, diameter - about eight meters. With electrical and propulsion systems, it takes half the internal volume of the boat. Last year, the lead ship launched reactor, ready to sail.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 02 Feb 2014 15:20

Strengthened partnership submarines
Russia has much to offer , and India - on what to buy submarines
Vladimir Karnozov

Serious military-technical cooperation between the USSR and India began in the mid 60s , and since then bilateral relations have remained largely unique. Russia provides such assistance and technology , what other countries New Delhi can not give. However, we have to reckon with the new conditions , primarily due to the arrival in the Indian market aggressive traders from Europe and the USA. Especially for naval industry. Indian Navy is already accustomed to the fact that not only choose the best option in terms of price - quality, but also receive additional bonuses . Therefore, unlike the Soviet predecessors current domestic shipbuilders have to work in the market , competing with the largest high-tech Western companies. Bet on the former political factor and the special inter-state relations sometimes does not work. Hopes are justified when it comes to ultra-modern weapons , which is the nuclear-powered submarine .

Now RF has two project offices that develop submarines for domestic Navy and for export. The St. Petersburg Naval Machinery Bureau "Malachite" ( SPMBM "Malachite" ) specializes in nuclear submarines and multipurpose special deep technical means and diesel-electric submarines of small displacement , that is, up to a thousand tons. Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering "Rubin" ( CDB MR "Ruby" ) , based in the same city , is engaged in nuclear submarine ( APKR ) with strategic weapons , as well as diesel-electric submarines main class ships of up to five thousand tons. There are design office " Lapis" in Nizhny Novgorod , known number of good projects , including a multipurpose nuclear submarine with a titanium hull Project 945 "Barracuda" . However, as a result of reductions in the industry " Lapis" virtually stopped work on submarines , transferring part of the " Rubin " (eg "Sarov" ) and " malachite " (including " Barracuda ").

In addition to the state defense order , "Malachite" and engaged in military-technical cooperation (MTC ) . It created multipurpose nuclear submarines , known under the general name Chakra ( literally - the weapon of the gods ) . The first of these 1967 release under an intergovernmental agreement has been leased to India and it was part of the Navy in 1988, 1991. During this time has passed 72,000 miles , completed five missile and torpedo firing 42 . In 2012, the Indian Navy received a second ship in its history with a nuclear power plant , which previously was part of the Russian Navy as a submarine "Nerpa" Project 971I . Today, it is based on the basis of " Vizahapatnam " on the east coast of the Indian subcontinent named Chakra II, love the present owners , who are interested in the acquisition of the second ship of the project.
Russian submarines

Defense Minister Arakaparambil Kurian Antony said at the beginning of last year : "Issues of cost of additional nuclear submarines in Russia should not worry you - India can not afford it ." But then the officials began to speak cautiously. Probably because the negotiation process on the following acquisitions went too far . At a press conference on the occasion of receiving the aircraft carrier " Vikramaditya " in November last year, Anthony preferred to evade direct questions about the continuation of purchases in Russia , citing the confidential nature of the information . But the analysis allows the Minister to conclude that the Indian side is interested in acquiring another submarine . Perhaps Project 971I . Judging by the mood of the Russian side, it is also ready to expand military-technical cooperation . In the process of working together on the first boat hull specialists of the two countries have extensive experience of interaction , and managers more clearly see the nuances of negotiation.

"The history of the submarine forces of India refutes the version that Russian submarines are not very suitable for use in warm seas "

Because nuclear submarines are strategic deterrence forces , the Kremlin can not ignore the geopolitical situation . Not every country , no matter what financial opportunities she had neither can buy submarines from Russia , and our strategic ally India a privileged position. In December 2012 , Russian President Vladimir Putin during his official visit noted the need to continue and expand cooperation in high-tech projects , including the joint development of fifth generation fighter PAK FA based , multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) and percussion cruise missiles ( area of specialization joint venture Brahmos Aerospace) . Logical step in this regard would be the joint design and construction of submarines. The domestic industry has the necessary experience, knowledge and capacity to implement the new orders. This was shown during the design, construction and acceptance testing of the lead ship , Project 885 "Ash" - multipurpose nuclear submarine of the fourth generation . The program employed "Malachite" and its industrial parterres , including JSC "Sevmash" .

Leased for ten years Chakra II is well illustrated by a responsible cooperation between the two countries . The ship delivered by the Russian side in January 2012 and arrived at the base of the customer in March. Russian industry is carried out work on the installation of individual equipment , such as the Indian communication system that interfaces with domestic antenna devices. Thus , to date, Russian and Indian partners have accumulated a successful experience of adaptation means the Indian side of the board complex Russian ship , install them on board the submarine , ensuring the smooth functioning of the joint . This kind of work carried out successfully in the Russian Federation . As a result, the Indian Navy received an order fully operational submarine Chakra II. The ship has high parameters. Length - more than 110 meters underwater speed - over 30 knots , achieved by passing on the propeller shaft power about 50 thousand horsepower. Thermal power reactor plant of the ship - about 190 MW or more than two times greater than the submarine Arihant own design and construction. Armament is very powerful complex Club-S ( export version of " Calibre ") with two types of missiles .

Strengthened partnership submarines

The history of submarine forces of India refutes the version that Russian submarines are not very suitable for use in warm seas . In the 60 years New Delhi has received from Moscow eight submarines project 641I . Some of them served for 35 years. Later performed 10 deliveries improved diesel-electric submarines of Project 877 EKM life which already exceeds 20 years , and continues through the timely overhaul . Much depends on the conditions -based and shore-based infrastructure . Parked inside the ship misses the air, which can be hot and humid . Require special measures to maintain the microclimate , including in the database as not all equipment can be ship in tropical . When designing any submarine for the Soviet and Russian Navy asked such requirements to ship their technical means provided operational use and a long swim anywhere in the oceans. Permanent residence in the warm salt water is not something unexpected for local designers, the problem is solved by design activities , in particular the installation of additional cathodic protection . When operating in the tropics, more attention should be given a clear implementation of maintenance regulations , the prescribed timing of drydocking the ship to assess the state of his body , to restore the damaged paintwork.

When the Indian Navy received the first Chakra, it served quite a large number of Soviet specialists , and the Indians did not get enough experience. Therefore, in preparation for the transfer of Chakra II paid much attention to the training of local specialists and equipment base. "Malachite" in various contracts in the framework of the tasks developed and delivered to the Indian side turnkey training complex for training of personnel. At the moment it is fully installed and functioning on the territory of the customer, and the Russian side performs its after-sales support.

On Chakra I had several dozen Soviet sailors , including the commander Alexander Teren . They were on board at each exit to the sea. Chakra II served in the sea only by the Indian crew. Separate issue - coastal security, one the Indians can not afford it , but maintenance work - completely. So the level of interaction on the Chakra II is much higher than Chakra I. And when it became necessary to remedy certain faults restore places ragged paint , the Indian used materials .

Russia has the scientific and industrial potential in some areas while maintaining a leading position in the world. For example, this vertical launch cruise missiles on board the lead ship of the project 885 "Ash" immersed. This submarine "Malachite" realized the idea and principle of universality . Launcher is an analogue of a revolving drum , which is deployed vertically and at its offices to five missiles , differing in purpose and size . In 2012, "Severodvinsk" successfully missiles had shot five times "Movement » (Club-S) as in the anti- variant, and to destroy coastal targets . Last year, the submarine launched cruise missiles and supersonic "Onyx" , close to the characteristics of the Indo -Russian BrahMos.

If India decides to take additional ships 971I project , it will greatly enhance Navy combat power . Break between the two Chakra was too big , the country lost many trained professionals with experience in the practical operation of ships with nuclear power plants and onshore services. Now, when everything you need to recreate the fleet must quickly increase the number of nuclear-powered ships to again lose experience . Based on the geopolitical situation in India makes sense to keep a couple of submarines at sea - one in the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal .

Also 971I interest New Delhi of 636 ships call " Varshavyanka " and 677 "Lada" and 865 " Piranha ." The latter is a compact diesel submarine . During the Cold War project SPMBM Leningrad shipyard built a couple of instances . " Piranha " designed for special forces in the Baltic shallow water. Made of titanium , which significantly reduce the electromagnetic radiation, the submarine had a crew of three and two torpedoes for self-defense . After the collapse of the USSR, a number of high-tech programs closed , sabotage facilities were laid off and both " Piranha " were from the existing fleet are raised and then disposed of .

Nevertheless, the potential of their production remained so domestic "defense" offered India export options . Even discussed the possibility of joint production of " Piranha ." As negotiations arose topic is more powerful but compact diesel-electric submarines based on the project 865. A couple of years ago to reach an agreement failed, but negotiators broke up with a plan to continue the search for a mutually acceptable solution .
Indian icebreaker

Chakra I was considered a kind of training class for Navy country. There were some restrictions on use, although the boat was carrying torpedoes and cruise missiles such as " Amethyst ". Therefore of particular importance in the national armed forces attach Chakra II. Nuclear-powered self-developed and built yet linger , so the sailors would like more Russian ships. The debate is about leasing. In any case it is not full ownership submarine , whatever may be flexible contract terms , will always be limited in use. About Chakra II in the country said that this is the case , when it is too late and too little. Many Indian politicians , military personnel, scientists and industrialists would like to receive from Russia is not ready to ship, and critical technologies , and actively assist in bringing to mind the development of the national nuclear submarines . They believe that such an approach is already meets the current state of strategic cooperation between the two countries that have undergone the necessary path to cooperation and have a successful experience .

Indian nuclear submarine program began a few decades later, the American and Soviet . First research grew into a project ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel - a high-tech ship) , began in 1974 . Assembly under license of German diesel-electric submarines type 209 in 1984 at Mazagon Docks has allowed local experts accumulate first experience in construction . Acquired technology and knowledge applied in the implementation of ATV. Practical phase of the project began in 1985-1988, and to the development of working documentation began in the late XX century.

While only icebreaker built INS Arihant. At the ceremony of launching its July 26, 2009 Prime Minister Manmohan Singh thanked the Russian experts for their assistance. In the creation of the ship attended various structures country's Defense Ministry and research centers , including the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Connected and large private organizations , such as Larsen & Toubro (L & T) and Tata Power - a division of Tata Group. Steel for the reactor compartment supplied Heavy Engineering Corporation, Ranchi, steam generator - Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL), and received an order for Audco pressure valves . After the Navy and DRDO experts finished overall project boat , its drawings in digital 3D as engineers have completed L & T. Management system developed Tata Power, and a steam turbine - Walchandnagar Industries. Build boats of various components made in factories in different cities of India , carried out in the Shipbuilding Centre (SBC) Vizahapatnam city .

In addition to the brain , it is planned to build five more ships, two cases have already been laid . Technical information about the project is stingy . It is only known that the design of the first-born of Indian nuclear submarine repeats famous Soviet solutions - double-hulled boat with external light and inner main buildings. Displacement - six thousand tons, length - 110-112 meters, width - 10-11 meters , the crew - 95 people , submerged speed - 24 knots . In general, the parameters close to the icebreaker Chakra II, but longer due to additional missile compartment (four vertical shafts with a diameter of 2.4 meters ) . To reduce the acoustic field used rubber tiles. Hydroacoustic complexes of two types - UHSUS ( installed on the project for modernization 877EKM ) and Panchendriya ( integrated sensor and control system ) .

As a primary weapon boat carries 12 ballistic missiles K-15 Sagarika four mines. Length missiles - 10.4 meters, diameter - one meter (0.74 m according to other sources ) , starting weight - 6.3 tons , with a range of monobloc charge - 750 kilometers, with a reduced - up to 1500 kilometers. Start out with water immersion stand took place in 2008 . There were claims that the missile is ready for the adoption. In the future, the submarine can be armed with missiles with a range Agni type 3500 kilometers. Four vertical shafts contain one Agni 3SL with a diameter of two meters and adjustable head part . However, it is reported that the development of the new missile can take several years .

The reactor of the type PWR (Pressurised Water Reactor), designed BARC. Prototype earned in 2004 on the territory of Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research in Chennai. Apparently, he is the type of land and ship variants requires processing documentation for manufacturing . The reactor 13 has fuel assemblies , each of the pins 348 . The length of the reactor compartment - 42 meters , diameter - about eight meters. With electrical and propulsion systems, it takes half the internal volume of the boat. Last year, the lead ship launched reactor , ready to sail .

Although there is a certain technological backwardness of India in strategic nuclear deterrence , it is not hopeless. It is a country with a long history of civilization , dynamic democracy with high rates of economic growth and the level of IQ citizens. Perfectly functioning defense industry , mass produced modern technology domestic and foreign development for the needs of the Air Force , Navy and ground forces. In addition to the powerful public sector defense industry since 2006, authorities actively involve private business. The armed forces of the republic have accumulated vast experience in operating and improving the combat systems of various production, including aircraft carriers, destroyers and frigates , submarines , combat aircraft and helicopters . So experience the Southern partner is of undoubted interest for Russian designers.
More : http://vpk-news.ru/articles/18915

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 02 Feb 2014 20:22

Is Shankar in the above post is the "Shankar", who wrote scenarios previously?

If yes, then begin writing scenarios again. We miss you.

There are a few scenarios incomplete, which need to be completed (your choice). Or begin a new one.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 02 Feb 2014 21:10

Whats the propsed name for the ATV 3 ? Ari?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Feb 2014 12:05

Looks like here are more Russian arms dealers on BRF than doing the rounds of MOD.

John · Post by **John** » 03 Feb 2014 21:41

Kersi D wrote:Looks like here are more Russian arms dealers on BRF than doing the rounds of MOD.

Yes we all know how arm dealer love to spend their time in forums which has 0 impact on decisions by MoD.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Feb 2014 09:09

here

The director-general of Defence Research and Development Organisation also confirmed the existence of India’s second nuclear-powered submarine, which is under construction at a military dockyard in Visakhapatnam for several years now. “The first submarine (Arihant) took 18 years. We hope to have the second submarine, which is under development, in 12 years,” he said.

It took ~5 years for INS Arihant to move from launching to sea trials phase. Last we heard that INS Aridhaman was going to be launched within 2013.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Feb 2014 09:51

Nikhil T, given Arihant was our first Nuke sub, I think thanks to the learning curve Arindham will have a lot less time from launch to induction. Besides they might be keeping Arindham in Dry Dock awaiting results of Arihant sea trials and missile launches to see if any modifications are required in the design. INS Arindham reactor will also be critical in a much shorter time span than INS Arihant, which was a first for the country.

They probably wont confirm subs in the pipeline until a year or so prior to launch.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Feb 2014 17:50

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/385 ... arine.html

India's first indigenous n-submarine to operate from 2015
New Delhi, Feb 7, 2014, (IANS):
India's first indigenous nuclear-powered attack submarine, INS Arihant, should be ready for deterrence patrols from 2015, roughly in about a year's time from now, its developers say. DH photo
India's first indigenous nuclear-powered attack submarine, INS Arihant, should be ready for deterrence patrols from 2015, roughly in about a year's time from now, its developers say.

India's top missile scientist, Avinash Chander, said the nuclear-tipped missiles were ready for installation and their integration would begin after some of the scheduled sea trials are over. The submarine is in its home port of Visakhapatnam now but should set course for the sea within a few weeks - by March - once its reactor achieves full power in the step-by-step process.

"All weapons are ready. INS Arihant is going through the steps of induction, and we are slowly raising the power to 100 per cent. After that, it will be ready to go to the sea. The process is a fairly elaborate exercise which will take several months. Once Arihant is in the sea, there has to be a trial phase of six to eight months," Chander told India Strategic magazine ahead of the DefExpo in New Delhi.

Chander, who is the Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and also the Director General of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which is leading India's quest for nuclear weapons requirements, observed that extreme care is needed in fully activating a new submarine's reactor to establish total safety parameters.

"It is the first baby we are nurturing," he said with optimistic caution.

Nuclear energy is amazing on the one hand as it can generate an endless supply of power and dangerous on the other if its production is not scientifically controlled and handled. The equipment on board a submarine and the men assigned to manage and handle it have to work in total sync and sensitivity. The margin for error is zero.

"So, it will be a careful, step-by-step operation and as soon as we are comfortable with the step-by-step established parameters, the submarine would set course for the sea for designated and pre-determined further trials," the distinguished scientist observed.

He said he did not want to put a time-frame but would expect it to "happen in a couple of months - say March".

Chander did not disclose details about INS Arihant's weapons, but it is understood that its four tubes are designed to launch 750-km range K-15 missiles and 3,500-km range K-4 missiles. Both these are nuclear tipped, capable of destroying any large city.

INS Arihant will carry 12 K-15 and four K-4 missiles. There is provision to launch non-nuclear tipped Brahmos supersonic cruise missile as well as the 1,000-km Nirbhay which can be configured for both nuclear and non-nuclear warheads, and has some loitering capability.

All these missiles have been tested successfully from underwater pontoons.

India is reportedly looking at three or four nuclear-propelled Arihant-class submarines and a larger number - 10 or 12 - of nuclear propelled attack submarines of a larger class. The latter, designated internationally as SSN boats, move fast along with Carrier Battle Groups (CBGs) while the nuclear armed boats like the Arihant, designated as SSBN, stay in hiding for three or four months as part of deterrence strategy. SSN boats carry submarine launched cruise missiles (SLCMs) like the Brahmos, or Nirbhay.

Technically, a nuclear boat can stay under water for very, very long periods but the limit to human endurance is generally put at about three months.

It may be noted that conventional diesel-electric boats can stay underwater for three days to a couple of weeks only, as they have to surface periodically to draw air to recharge their batteries.

The Indian Navy has some 45 vessels on order but at present, its submarine arm is very weak as the boats are old - acquired from mid-1980s - except for the nuclear-powered INS Chakra leased from Russia. INS Arihant has an 80 MW pressurised water reactor, based on Russian subs. Some of the crew trained by Russia for INS Chakra have reportedly been helping in the test procedures.

Notably, the navy is looking for three aircraft carriers in the coming years, and it is imperative to have nuclear-powered boats as part of the overall strategy. The carriers, which are like floating islands, themselves need 360 degree protection up, down, around and underwater and SSN boats are a basic requirement if a country goes in for CBGs.

Nuclear weapons can be launched from air, sea or land, and SSBN boats are hidden in ocean depths so that they can survive a nuclear attack by a hostile country, and then be able to take retaliatory action.

India has a declared No-First-Use (NFU) nuclear doctrine, which however promises massive punitive destruction in retaliation. Submarine-launched nuclear weapons are part of this strategy. Once INS Arihant is operational in 2015, India will then complete the nuclear triad of air, surface and underwater nuclear attack capability.

Nuclear weapons are under the tri-service Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and top level clearance is required from the government to launch them if ever needed.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Feb 2014 18:20

prasannasimha wrote:....

Chander did not disclose details about INS Arihant's weapons, but it is understood that its four tubes are designed to launch 750-km range K-15 missiles and 3,500-km range K-4 missiles. Both these are nuclear tipped, capable of destroying any large city.

...

Nuclear weapons are under the tri-service Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and top level clearance is required from the government to launch them if ever needed.

Does this mean that for the first time India will maintain warheads and missiles in mated state? It is an escalation compared to our present nuclear posture isnt it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2014 19:25

well you cannot fly out warheads under BARC scientists to a waiting sub in mid ocean unless the US-2 is for that purpose.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Feb 2014 19:29

My guess is Arihant will carry a conventional mix of Shourya, Nirbhay & Brahmos missiles for normal patrols. K-4 will be loaded either for training or when there is indication of action.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Feb 2014 20:25

The whole idea of nuclear submarines is to have them loaded. We are having those ultralow frequency /ELF transmitters built so what is that for - to give signals for launching in case of a nyuclear attack so they have to be armed and ready 24X7 when patrol.

http://www.janes.com/article/11147/indi ... nstruction

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 07 Feb 2014 21:21

tsarkar wrote:My guess is Arihant will carry a conventional mix of Shourya, Nirbhay & Brahmos missiles for normal patrols. K-4 will be loaded either for training or when there is indication of action.

SSBNs wont change their weapon loadout based on their mission profile. In fact they don't change their mission, they have one mission and one mission only. I believe Arihant will be no different, it will be on deterrent patrols throughout its operational deployment/s.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 07 Feb 2014 21:37

Aditya G wrote:Does this mean that for the first time India will maintain warheads and missiles in mated state? It is an escalation compared to our present nuclear posture isnt it.

We already have warheads mated with missiles. India's nuclear doctrine mentions unacceptable damage to enemy, you cannot inflict that unless you have missiles ready to be launched after taking a first strike.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 07 Feb 2014 22:26

Indians have invested in infrared signature detection on their satellites. Which implies a launch on warning readiness.

wig · Post by **wig** » 08 Feb 2014 09:51

nuclear-powered submarine Arihant will test-fire the missile so far named ‘B-05’ as part of its forthcoming sea trials.

The DRDO chief told a press conference at the Defexpo here that the missiles to be fired from Arihant are ready and the submarine was going through power raising cycles. There are safety procedures to be followed and will be completed in a month or two. Once full power generation is achieved, it will go for sea trials. The DRDO chief while answering questions said “the B-05 missile will be tested this year and they are part of the sea trials of Arihant”.

Chander said the development trials of the B-05 missile were completed in January 2013 and it is ready for being fully integrated with the indigenous nuclear submarine. Sources said it can travel to 700 km while the bigger variant, so far known as ‘K-4’, can hit targets 3,500 km away and will finally be installed on the Arihant and also the next two follow-on submarines of the same class.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140208/nation.htm#2

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Feb 2014 23:06

sattili wrote:
tsarkar wrote:My guess is Arihant will carry a conventional mix of Shourya, Nirbhay & Brahmos missiles for normal patrols. K-4 will be loaded either for training or when there is indication of action.
SSBNs wont change their weapon loadout based on their mission profile. In fact they don't change their mission, they have one mission and one mission only. I believe Arihant will be no different, it will be on deterrent patrols throughout its operational deployment/s.

Not really, Arihant is a multi role submarine. Indians do not ape Uncle-ji blindly, so it would be imprudent to extrapolate uncle-ji doctrines to the Indian context.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Feb 2014 23:55

sanjaykumar wrote:Indians have invested in infrared signature detection on their satellites. Which implies a launch on warning readiness.

Only if dedicated assets remain available for 24/7 coverage and enough redundancy is built into the number of assets.

Neither exists currently and may not exist till 2020+

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Feb 2014 23:57

tsarkar wrote:My guess is Arihant will carry a conventional mix of Shourya, Nirbhay & Brahmos missiles for normal patrols. K-4 will be loaded either for training or when there is indication of action.

Isn't that a hefty mix for a mini-boomer? I would suspect the K-4 to be their main cargo under all wartime conditions. The other subs are going to get fitted with Brahmos and Nirbhay anyway for conventional roles. Also, why do you think the Shourya will find itself on the subs? Is there any need for the same to be on a boomer?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Feb 2014 12:49

tsarkar wrote:
sattili wrote:SSBNs wont change their weapon loadout based on their mission profile. In fact they don't change their mission, they have one mission and one mission only. I believe Arihant will be no different, it will be on deterrent patrols throughout its operational deployment/s.
Not really, Arihant is a multi role submarine. Indians do not ape Uncle-ji blindly, so it would be imprudent to extrapolate uncle-ji doctrines to the Indian context.

I would defer to your superior knowledge in this aspect but somehow I cannot see boats meant for strategic deterrent also mixing it up with other boats, enemy surface assets, etc. Their job should be just to hide from everyone unless they need to deliver doomsday.

It may be that some boats from the Arihant class are used for conventional roles and some for strategic roles, but the same boat won't be used for both *at the same time*. I think this is what you are implying.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Feb 2014 13:51

tsarkar wrote:Not really, Arihant is a multi role submarine. Indians do not ape Uncle-ji blindly, so it would be imprudent to extrapolate uncle-ji doctrines to the Indian context.

To be fair, its not really US doctrine either. Russian, British and French boomers weren't/aren't used for conventional operations either, tasked with running isolated deterrence patrols instead.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2014 05:50

The ATV's primary purpose is to provide strategic deterrent and primary armament the K-15 missiles and longer ranged ones later on.Though 700km is given as the range,few believe it to be true,its actual range speculated by some to be double.Brahmos is most unlikely to be aboard the ATVs built as SSBNs.It is why the second line of conventional AIP subs have a key requirement to be able to carry BMos.However the universal missile silo aboard the ATV is supposed to be the same or similar in concept to that aboard Russia's latest "almost invulnerable" Yasen class of SSGN,whose capabilities are causing much dismay amongst the US intel community.These silos can carry a cocktail of missiles.In fact just as the USN's Ohio class of former SSBNs were turned into SSGNs carrying dozens of Tomahawk cruise missiles,so too can the basic ATV design be configured into an SSGN.It would require a more powerful reactor and streamlined sail for faster speed,upto 30kts underwater.Nirbhay being an indigenous product,could well be carried by our SSBNs/SSGNs given the missile's size that allows it to be fired from std. TTs.

One is not sure of the conditions of the lease of the Akula-2 Chakra,whether it can carry missiles above the MTCR regime of 300km,but hints that the configuration of the second Akula-2 being offered on lease will incorporate similar silos used aboard the Yasen class' ,which will allow the sub to fire several classes of missiles,including BMos.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Feb 2014 11:31

Firstly, we need to stop using designations like SSGN, SSBN or SSN, that are US designations, for Indian submarines. FWIW, Indian submarines use "S" unlike US "SS" in penant numbers.

It is prohibitively expensive to operate ballistic missile submarines operations for 30 years lifetime of a submarine for a once in a blue moon possibility of nuclear war. The French & UK Royal navies are operationally bleeding because of their 24x7 deterrence patrols.

So Indians wisely came up with a concept of 3 smaller diameter tubes within a larger diameter tube. There would be indications of nuclear threshold being escalated, rather than a sudden launch, and the submarine is sufficiently flexible to be re-configured to carry larger diameter missile in a short time.

Uncle is converting SSBN for conventional missiles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine, though their designs are not flexible enough to accommodate quick change between larger diameter strategic & smaller diameter tactical missiles, like SDREs.

Also, submarines with 16/18/24 strategic missiles are unwieldy & less manoeuverable than smaller submarines. It puts all your eggs in the same basket. Once a ballistic missile is launched, the underwater noise can be hear by other submarines/ships, and the SSBM is surely to be targeted.

Again, SDRE put only four strategic missiles per Arihant, distributing eggs among multiple baskets, and ensuring their submarine are not large & unmanoeuverable. Plus 12 tactical missiles give similar punch like a Kolkata class destroyer with 16 Brahmos.

@Merlin, you're right, not at the same time. A strategic missile armed submarine wont expose itself by launching tactical missiles

@Philip - compare Brahmos length & diameter with K-15/Shourya, the cannister will fit. Sub launched Brahmos was developed in time for Arihant.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Mar 2014 22:57

1 killed, 2 hurt in accident at Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam

1 worker killed, 2 injured in accident at a site of under-construction nuclear submarine at Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam: Navy & police sources.

DRDO orders inquiry into the accident onboard the follow - up submarine of warship INS Arihant, said DRDO chief Avinash Chander.

Further details awaited.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 09 Mar 2014 05:53

Is this a model of the Arihant or the actual Arihant?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/accid ... eststories

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 09 Mar 2014 06:11

Anurag wrote:Is this a model of the Arihant or the actual Arihant?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/accid ... eststories

Desi Dork Media at it again. That is the picture of HMS Astute class. You can make out the name at the bottom of the platform. I wonder how it is a file photo of Arihant

Akshay D · Post by **Akshay D** » 09 Mar 2014 06:21

It's not the Arihant. That is one of the Astute class subs of the royal navy. The name is partly visible behind the pole. Someone needs to tell NDTV.