INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Kanson
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

KiranM wrote:My 2 cents to the conjectures here. :mrgreen:

INS Arihant is more like a prototype or pilot plant platform. Also, it is designed to serve a minimal sea based deterrant until larger and better platforms hit the sea.

In the next 15 years when threat perceptions change and on availabilty of larger and more capable platforms, IN may think of turning Arihant into a maritime version of Samyukta.

Regards,
Kiran
Hardly you can call it as prototype as two more boats of same class are under construction. Samyukta! that can happen soon; not to wait for 15 yrs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

If i'm not wrong, those ELF facilities are already shutdown in US and current talk is of blue-green laser. Indian Navy too showed interest in that thing. That might tranlaste to we either studying the concept or working on that.

And on NF

Code: Select all

[b]
EnrichmentFacilitiesName                 Location                Type                      Start Date Function [/b]
Center for Advanced Technology         Indore         Laser enrichment                     1993 Research
Rare Materials Project3                    Mysore                - -                         Research reactor fuel? 
Laser Enrichment Plant                    Trombay       Laser enrichment                     1993 Research 
Uranium Enrichment Plant                 Trombay    Pilot scale Ultracentrifuge     1985 Research & development
Last edited by Kanson on 29 Jul 2009 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Anant »

Kanson,

The Wisconsin one has been shut down. Not sure about the others.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Hi Anant, from the wiki link you quoted.
The US maintained two sites, in the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest, Wisconsin and the Escanaba River State Forest, Michigan (originally named Project Sanguine, then downsized and rechristened Project ELF prior to construction), until they were dismantled, beginning in late September 2004
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

I am sure under NATO secret pacts, the french and british can also utilize
the US ELF network and airborne command posts - they have to because a nato nuclear response needing a slbm salvo will certainly involve their joint GHQ.

the chinese are on verge of building up their Jin fleet enough to go far out
and need such comms. for now I think they will use bastion strategy until sufficient Shang class are available.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

until they were dismantled, beginning in late September 2004

khan never dismantles anything until a better option is available. perhaps
they found a secret new way of comms via network of satellites
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by svinayak »

Singha wrote:until they were dismantled, beginning in late September 2004

khan never dismantles anything until a better option is available. perhaps
they found a secret new way of comms via network of satellites
Sonar based - ethernet - web of sonar emitters in the sea bed to transmit
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

interesting...sure must cost a lot to lay such a network in all patrol areas.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Anant »

My bad Kanson sir. I blame the lack of sleep on the Arihant, which have umm eroded my cerebral skills. Still, there are many addicts like me on here who jones for sub based news. Since there isn't much on the Arihant, I'm putting up a link which I know most will enjoy. It was a series called Aboard a Boomer, which was on CSPAN 9 years ago. The sub, USS Wyoming, is still very much in service and the captain is now a professor at the US Naval Academy. Check it out. You'll enjoy it.

http://www.c-span.org/submarine/

Click the video links and there is a photo gallery also.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Acharya wrote:
Singha wrote:until they were dismantled, beginning in late September 2004

khan never dismantles anything until a better option is available. perhaps
they found a secret new way of comms via network of satellites
Sonar based - ethernet - web of sonar emitters in the sea bed to transmit
True Acharya..they use hydrophones attached to under sea cables linked to land or sort of....
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Anant wrote:I blame the lack of sleep on the Arihant
:) Me too
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

isnt the blue-green laser thing for detection of submerged tethered mines rather than comms?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vavinash »

Its been 3 days and we don't even have an estimate on the size or displacement of the beast. :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by krishnan »

Well we do have some estimates.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Raj Malhotra »

As is obvious that there are two views about Arihant.

First that it is modified Charlie Class, say Charlie Class-3 with a compartment/section of 11m inserted in mid body to house 4x3 missiles. Which would make it 6000-6500 tons submerged.

The second view is that it is very advanced design even more than yasen and borei as it was started only 1998. The second view is supported by the following article:-

Deep rising
The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged.

Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knots.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by negi »

Singha wrote:interesting...sure must cost a lot to lay such a network in all patrol areas.
Hmm... may be it can be a black box like ruggeddised beacon/transmitter which can be simply deployed just like any other mine by a minelayer or a similar dedicated ship .
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Singha wrote:isnt the blue-green laser thing for detection of submerged tethered mines rather than comms?
i think this blue-green light can travel deep, penetrating deep sea where n-subs are expected to operate and laser is actually used for comm. Not just mines, it is also contemplated for detecting subs, if i'm not wrong.
Last edited by Kanson on 29 Jul 2009 11:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by kit »

Arihant is supposedly underpowered but faster than 'many' american nuclear submarines ;

It still uses VHF communications which is decades old tech.

Are these statements true and to what extent ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Raj Malhotra wrote: The second view is that it is very advanced design even more than yasen and borei as it was started only 1998. The second view is supported by the following article:-

Deep rising
The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged.

Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knots.
It could be true sir, as someone described seeing that as dolphine, considering the length, the way rudder appeared and the spine, the placement of sail. It seems to be a well streamlined body, only other thing matter is reactor power.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Anujan »

negi wrote: Hmm... may be it can be a black box like ruggeddised beacon/transmitter which can be simply deployed just like any other mine by a minelayer or a similar dedicated ship .
Unkil has semi-retired the SOSUS and instead has Surveillance Towed-Array Sensor System (SURTASS) and Advanced Deployable System (ADS). They form part of the Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (IUSS). You can read about them here and here
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by merlin »

Raj Malhotra wrote:As is obvious that there are two views about Arihant.

First that it is modified Charlie Class, say Charlie Class-3 with a compartment/section of 11m inserted in mid body to house 4x3 missiles. Which would make it 6000-6500 tons submerged.

The second view is that it is very advanced design even more than yasen and borei as it was started only 1998. The second view is supported by the following article:-

Deep rising
The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged.

Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knots.
The 9400 tons submerged displacement was first stated by Rahul Bedi (for Jane's I think). If you see articles on the ATV from very early times (7 to 8 years ago) to a few years back the displacement stated increased from 4000 tons to 9400 tons and didn't go higher than that.

So we have stated submerged displacements from 6000 tons to 9400 tons and stated lengths from 104 m to 124 m. Stated reactor output from 80 MW all the way to 190 MW (all thermal I think). Until the navy releases these figures it will all be speculation.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by krishnan »

From livefist
While most of us gawked at Arihant, on Sunday, India Today's Sandeep Unnithan was busy sketching away in his notebook. Here are a few rough sketches he made while we stood about 10 feet from the submarine in the Matsya Dock in Visakhapatnam's Ship Building Centre (SBC).

I notice a lot of folks out there are at it making speculative illustrations of the Arihant. Well, good luck! I wish I had a more photographic memory. But when you're done making whatever you're making, do send them to me. I'll be happy to post them here.
Either he is lying about the 10 feet, or lying about his memory, or he wasnt even there on the first place, or the navy did a great job in hiding the baby from people who were even 10 feet away from it
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vasu_ray »

again hazarding a guess, 124m might have 12 VLS tubes, while the first one at 110m has 4 VLS

2, 3 might be 124m
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Kanson is right,blue-green lasers are the way to go.ELF is fine but takes very long for messages to be recd.Two years ago,at the last Aero-India,there was a minewarfare display at a US pavilion LM, using heli-borne lasers to detect underwater mines.By the same yardstick it stands to reason that the tech/software can be modified and also be used to detect/communciate with subs,which are larger.There was a posted in the intl. thread some time ago,regarding new techniques of communicating with subs.The fastest way would be to launch a stealthy commn. buoy towed a good distance away,which would receive communications from aircraft or sats. at regular given times.Communicating with subs in real time is the "holy grail" of sub technology,still like the Grail undiscovered!

PS:Just saw this bit of news.
MARION, Mass., July 27 (UPI) -- Lockheed Martin says a technology designed to deliver two-way communications between U.S. Navy submarines has completed a system requirements review.

U.S. company Lockheed Martin says its team, which includes Ultra Electronics Ocean Systems and Erapsco, has successfully completed system requirements review for the Communications at Speed and Depth technology.

The completed review marks a milestone for the development of the CSD system, which enables secure, two-way communications at tactical speeds and below periscope depth with surface ships, aircraft and land-based assets.

"The on-schedule progress of this program results from a strong government-industry team that is focused on delivering a much-needed capability to the fleet," Brent Starr, the Navy's CSD principle acquisition program manager, said in a statement.

"The system requirements review was a huge success."
http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/20 ... 248717596/
PPS:The confusion about the Arihant being derived from the Charlie class stems from the fact that the reactor tech might very well be that of a type or design which was used on Charlie class subs,but the subs configuration is far different from a Charlie,with a different type of VLS.The Charlie's had the missile silos on either beam outside the pressure hull in an inclined angle.Given the stated speed of the Arihant,which is identical to the Charlie class,the reactor is probably of a similar improved design and the sub has a definitely more advanced and streamlined hull allowing for the given speed though having only a single N-reactor.

Vavinash's query below is easily answered by just extending the length of the ATV by another section which can house another 4-8 missile silos and a more powerful reactor or twin reactors.If the hull diameter is also widened to 12m instead of 11m,a lot more "bang" can be packed in.One matter of concern though is the large number of crew aboard the sub.The design seems to have taken these considerations into account,as the same silos can be used for ballistic missiles and landf attack cruise/ballistic missiles too,as in the Ohio class SSBNs modified into SSGNs.These days,subs are getting to be far more automated with conventional AIP subs having crews of around 20-30 only.We must be able in the futute to have a crew of only 40-50 for our future N-subs.
Last edited by Philip on 29 Jul 2009 12:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vavinash »

Just thing out loud. What if there are two submarines.

1) Desi SSN/GN which is 105 long and carries 12 vls tubes for future SLCM and has a displacement of 6000 tonne surfaced and 7000 tonne submerged.

2) Desi SSBN which is 124m long and wider (maybe 12.5-13 m) with 12 vls for A-3Sl and a displacement of 9500-10,500 tonnes.

This would be the ideal scenario for IN nuke subs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shankar »

The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged.

Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knot
shankarosky again very happy the displacement and speed is also getting confirmed separately
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

merlin wrote:The 9400 tons submerged displacement was first stated by Rahul Bedi (for Jane's I think). If you see articles on the ATV from very early times (7 to 8 years ago) to a few years back the displacement stated increased from 4000 tons to 9400 tons and didn't go higher than that.
4000 ton figure was during 80's. From late 90's it stablished around 6000 tons.
So we have stated submerged displacements from 6000 tons to 9400 tons and stated lengths from 104 m to 124 m. Stated reactor output from 80 MW all the way to 190 MW (all thermal I think). Until the navy releases these figures it will all be speculation.
Dont expect Navy to come out with figues. N-sub is the most guarded object.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kanson »

Shankar wrote:
The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged.

Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knot
shankarosky again very happy the displacement and speed is also getting confirmed separately
What about the reactor? A body can travel theoretically at that speed provided it has adequate power.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

I do not understand how the sub has the above mentioned speed if it has just been launched as this is an entirely new class of sub worldwide! Either the sub has been around for quite some time and the launch is a big "tamasha",a difficult job to conceal even locally and that the sub surely would've been spotted by sats,or the speed has been simulated by model/computer tests.Speed is secondary to stealth,especially for an SSBN and what is more important is how quiet the sub is.This is where Russian sub tech scores,as we have earlier seen with the Kilo class .The double hull allows both the exterior and interior of the hull to have acoustic claddings.It also allows location of certain equipment outside the inner hull,allowing freeing of space inside.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by KiranM »

Kanson wrote:
KiranM wrote:My 2 cents to the conjectures here. :mrgreen:

INS Arihant is more like a prototype or pilot plant platform. Also, it is designed to serve a minimal sea based deterrant until larger and better platforms hit the sea.

In the next 15 years when threat perceptions change and on availabilty of larger and more capable platforms, IN may think of turning Arihant into a maritime version of Samyukta.

Regards,
Kiran
Hardly you can call it as prototype as two more boats of same class are under construction. Samyukta! that can happen soon; not to wait for 15 yrs.
Yes Sir, I am aware of the follow ons in the same Class. But I still stick to Arihant being prototype, especially for SLBM development and testing. My bet is on the remaining 2 being of same 'class' but carrying different package. Tuned more towards SSN and limited SSGN types.

Indians do not believe much in ad hoc capabilities. They leap frog weapons technology generations (as evident from Nag, Tejas and Arjun programmes - may be because of frugal spending?). Hence, my contention that Arihant will be used primarily to develop more potent technologies (SLBMs and SLCMs), doctrines and operating procedures.

My take is Arihant forms the centre of a spiral development methodology for strategic underwater capabilities.

Exclusive Elint/ sigint platform will be last in priority. Hence, my contention it will be converted to such usage after 15 years when most of the above have been achieved. Also, by then we would have expanded our strategic perception and willingness to 'reach out', to use such a system on Chinese Eastern seaboard.
Last edited by KiranM on 29 Jul 2009 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by arun »

UK’s Times newspaper on the launch of the Arihant.

Premature to completely buy into their analyses that the Arihant is China centric given the modest 700 Km range of the K-15 ballistic missile. Long transit times from the east coast of India, by-passing submarine unfriendly waters of the Malacca, Sunda, Lombok and Makassar straits, to get within K-15 missile range of China could result in sub-optimal on station time:
July 29, 2009

A colder ocean

India’s new nuclear submarine marks a growing military competition with China

Pakistan’s denunciation of India’s first nuclear submarine, launched on Sunday, was predictable. Islamabad yesterday called the vessel, now about to begin two years of sea trials, “detrimental to regional peace” and a matter of serious concern for all littoral states of the Indian Ocean. Seen from Pakistan, the Arihant — “Destroyer of Enemies” — certainly looks threatening.

………………... But for all the historic animosity and renewed tensions on the subcontinent, Pakistan’s fears are misplaced. The presumed target of the formidable weapons Arihant will carry is not Pakistan but China. …………..

Times UK
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by arun »

Long voyage ahead for India's new nuclear sub :
"In one respect, this represents India's coming of age," said Alex Neill, head of the Asia security programme at the independent, London-based think-tank, the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI).

"A nuclear submarine is a badge of honour -- a benchmark, if you like, for any aspiring great power," Neill said.
Indian analysts, however, said Pakistani concerns, as well as the tub-thumping welcome the Indian media gave to the launch, were both premature.

"We agree it is a very symbolic first step," said Uday Bhaskar, director of the National Maritime Foundation, set up to sharpen India's coastal security after last year's attacks on Mumbai.

"But chest thumping is not valid at this stage as the launch of such a submarine is a very arduous task," Bhaskar said, noting neighboring China took 12 years to set up a credible nuclear submarine force in 1986.

"Arihant's builders will first need to achieve criticality of its reactor and then propulsion and the real challenge will be when it goes for full sea trials," he told AFP.
Bharat Karnad, an analyst with the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research think-tank, said Arihant was a long way from matching the potency of its Chinese counterparts.

"The Arihant will have a small range of missiles and compared to China's nuclear armament these are fire-crackers," Karnad said.

"India needs to develop inter-continental ballistic missiles fitted in submarines," he said, while also stressing the importance of developing more powerful nuclear warheads.
From Here:

AFP
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Akshut »

Many people are suggesting different designs of Arihant.
.
Could it be this? From Aero India.
.
Image
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

I wonder if the next line of subs is 124m and would carry 12 tubes for a total of 12 full caliber SLBM and 36xshourya/brahmos. Given that we wont have
1000s of warheads to play like kids marbles, anything more than 12 on a single vessel is hard to do , plus point of vulnerability.

in a SSGN role it would unleash a formidable pkg of 36 missiles and atleast 30 weapons in torpedo room. could annihilate port facilities and near-shore targets of unfriendly nations from a safe distance.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by k prasad »

1. In the BBC video, we can clearly see that the moving things behind MMS are the sailors of the crew standing on the hull with nothing behind them (those are their legs that are moving... not a curtain)... but in the PIB pics, from almost the same angle, we see a solid part of the sub... its very very odd.

2. Second, for the sub to remain underwater, the weight must be equal to or greater than the bouyant force.

For Arihant, if we take 11m diameter and 112 m length, the buoyant force, assuming an effective cyclindrical length of 80 m is pi*5.5*5.5*80*1 ton/cu.m = 7603 tons

I think this is a close enough approximation to the published value... However, I'm not certain as to how accurate the effective length can be calculated... gurus with a detailed knowledge of cross-sections can help out plz.


3. Looks like BRF came up with the closest predictions for the Arihant - the VIP coconut view, the pre-stressed coconut, and finally, the video that would be released, with PM and random VIPs, and a small shot of the sub in bgrnd...
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

Akshut that is Amur 950 with 8 VLS Tube
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by arun »

Brahma Chellaney believes that developing an ICBM before a SSBN ought to have been the path forward.

All in all a pretty scathing article:
Substandard Capabilities

Brahma Chellaney . 29 July 2009, 12:00am IST

……………. Of the three technologies nuclear propulsion, SLBM and ICBM the most complex are the first two. Developing a nuclear-weapon-strike capability from underwater is far more difficult than firing missiles from the ground. Yet, while seeking to develop an SLBM-armed nuclear sub, India still does not have an ICBM project, even on the drawing board. India wants to go down in world history as the first nation to deploy an SSBN without having developed an ICBM. 'Incredible India' indeed. ……………….

TOI
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

That is indeed the Amur 950 with 10 VLS Brahmos. But the drawings of Sandeep Unnithan resembles this sub except that there is the sail mounted divine pane.

The Arihant has evolved from a borei lookalike to an amur lookalike.

Image

Image
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

we do need a domestic 'bad cop' constituency like him to drive things forward and provide political cover to the centrist moves of the Govt - as in a apologetic looking MMS saying to Khan - "look we have these warmongers demanding a SSBN with 24 tubes but we have been good boys and made one with onree 12 - now what can you do to make me stronger (TOT, goodies) vs these anti-US forces" :twisted:

every country has such a useful set of experts of maximalist orientation.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vavinash »

Why does he think its not being done? GOI does not even announce the real range of missiles in public.
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