INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Prem
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Prem »

shiv wrote:
Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
A man left his beautiful newlywed wife with a bachelor friend and went off on a 10 year holiday after reaching an agreement that the wife would not be treated as a wife by the bachelor friend. I wonder what happened.
Depend, if friend was Indian , he might be the follower of Pran Jayye par vahcan Naa Jayee.
But then no one will know unless friend or wife reveal something obove the knee .
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Chakra ke peeche kya hai?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vic »

shiv wrote: A man left his beautiful newlywed wife with a bachelor friend and went off on a 10 year holiday after reaching an agreement that the wife would not be treated as a wife by the bachelor friend. I wonder what happened.
You can add that the wife was to sleep naked with the friend and both the friend & wife were permitted to engage in physical contact for sex education purposes :rotfl:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajanb »

Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
Ofcourse, we jolly well wouldn't care. Reports are fairly indicative that it is going to be armed with Klubs. If we decide to arm it with something else and test to see it works, you and I are not going to know about it.

So in a few months you hear about testing from an underwater platform, we can guess away! :mrgreen:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

the report of klubs indicate it will be armed - klubs and usual torpedoes. we already have both these weapons in our kilo fleet and in stock so addl purchase not needed.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
If there is a clause which says that India cannot use the submarine in war time, then yes India will honor that agreement. That is not the point. The point is that we are running behind by at least a decade. We should have had our own nuclear sub by the start of this century. I find it reprehensible and extremely callous the attitude of Indian MoD/GoI/Navy regarding this. The fact that we had to lease a nuclear sub itself says a lot of unflattering things about our defense establishment.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajanb »

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
If there is a clause which says that India cannot use the submarine in war time, then yes India will honor that agreement.
Sorry Chris. I will have to disagree with you totally on your Pov. We will "honour" the agreement. But we will use the INS Chakra. Like the Porkis "honoured" the agreement not to use arms given to them for SEATO/CENTO during '65 and '71
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Cain Marko »

First, where has the idea that India can't use the Akula cropped up from? What news source has conjured up this clause?

If IN can't use it, why arm it with torpedoes and Klubs? If all this money was spent only for IN to "understand" how nuke subs work, why not just be satisfied with training 300 crew members at Sevmash?

CM
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Anthony Hines »

Sure it will be used - I suspect it is stationed off of Dalian at this very moment.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

if you ask me, it all depends on how beautiful the wife is. from user-centric approach to usage-centric design aspects. integration of next generation systems including home grown infatuations.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

The larger tubes will be most useful testing larger diameter sub-launched cruise missiles.When the specs of the ATV-1 are revealed and we find similar two sized tubes aboard,or on later ATV series ,we will see the light.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

DTI: Most interesting report about USN's SSBN (X) ballistic missil sub,production to begin in 2019 ,one per year, to replace Ohios.

In order to bring down costs,"established design techniques to bring down manufacturing cost" will be applied. Details from the Virginia,Seawolf and Ohio classes willbe used and "modularity" will be a mainstay of the sub,particularly in the missile dept.This has intersting similarities with our ATV programme,which can be seen from the deisgn of ATV-1 (Arihant).The Arihant has 4 missile silos which can carry either a single large K-5 (?) missile or 3 smaller K-15s in each silo.What the nes US sub will possess is modular missile compartments in a "quad-pack" configuartion,where 4 such "packs" will feature on the new SSBN (X) class.
In similar style,the ATV-(X) subs in the future could also have more than one "pack",just as the US is providing for the RN's SSBNs,which will have two "quad-packs" with 8 missile silos."The greater production rate of the "quad-packs" will drive down the cost of a common missile compartment".

Existing components under evaluation include "radio room systems,pumps,valves,and air compressors to fire-control and guidance systems".OPen architecture for software upgrades,and if soem components are expected to become obsolete in future,the new component will be specified with the same "footprint" so as not to compromise space.

Some other interesting stats:
Estimated cost of the SSBN (X): 2010 "will cost" figure,$5.6B"."Should cost" figure,$4.9B per sub.

Reactor core lifespan---42 years.

Life-cycle costs may influence crew sizes.Reducing the crew by "one" saves $10m" per boat over its life.If the crew size can be redued by 20,it would mean a saving of $200M.Multiplying this X 12 subs gives a saving of $2.4B.

Therefore from available info on the ATV series,it is probaly safe to assume that a similar methodology is being adopted with modularity at least in the missile compartments,where larger SSBNs could have 8-12 silos in a "3-pack" configuration.All that needs to be modified is the reactor size and here too there may already be some built in capacity/space in the design for a more powerful reactor for a larger boat.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

Philip, What is DTI?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

ramana wrote:Philip, What is DTI?
DTI--> http://in.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416204141
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by krishnan »

Defense Technology International
Roperia
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Roperia »

Please vote on Carnegie Nuclear Policy Program's facebook page.

The question is - Does India's nuclear submarine program stabilize deterrence in South Asia?

https://www.facebook.com/CarnegieNPP

I voted Yes. :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

isnt that a gora trap. like joining in a opinion poll asking 'do you love your wife?'

its best not to give them any more respect which they deserve - which is zero in india's case.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Sorry Ramanna,DTI is an AWST monthy publication,available to AWST subscribers,vaguely similar to Janes' IDR,though not so thick.It contins a deeper analysis of news and systems instead of just tracking the news.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Sanku »

shiv wrote:
Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
A man left his beautiful newlywed wife with a bachelor friend and went off on a 10 year holiday after reaching an agreement that the wife would not be treated as a wife by the bachelor friend. I wonder what happened.
:twisted:
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Will »

Wonder if the Rafale deal will bring in anything from the French for our nuke sub project :)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

well the scorpene project and its huge price tag would be the right place to ask.
certainly the skills developed in welding , manufacturing , quieting and quality control of scorpene apply to anywhere.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Pl.chk. into this informative interview with the Zvyozdochka Centre General Director Vladimir Nikitin speaking about the history of and Indo-Russian sub cooperation and further prospects.

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/02/01/tw ... 14685.html
But most of these resources are meant for the repair and upgrade of submarines, aren’t they?


INS Sindhuvir: medium repair performed in 1997 –1999.
INS Sindhuratna: medium repair and modernisation, including installation of a Club-S missile system, performed in 2000–2002.
INS Sindhugosh: medium repair and modernisation, including installation of a Club-S missile system and Indian-made systems (Ushus hydro-acoustic system, CCS communications system and Sirs radiation monitoring system), performed in 2002–2005.
INS Sundhuvijay: medium repair and modernisation, including installation of a Club-S missile system and Indian- and foreign-made systems (Ushus hydro-acoustic system, CCS communications system and Sirs radiation monitoring unit, Porpoise radar, MCA external antenna, York cooling machines, Sulzer high pressure air compressors), performed in 2005–2008.
Since August 2010, Zvyozdochka has been carrying out medium repair and modernisation of INS Sindhurakshak.

True. In 1999, we handed over to India the first foreign ship – INS Sindhuvir – after a medium overhaul. In 2002, Zvyozdochka brought INS Sindhuratna, a diesel-electric submarine, back into service. It was on that ship that the shipyard completed the pilot project to install a Club-S missile system. Three years later, INS Sindhugosh sailed from Severodvinsk to its native shores. That ship was the first to feature Indian-made systems – the Ushus hydro-acoustic unit and the CCS communications system, in addition to the Club-S missile system. INS Sundhuvijay, delivered to the customer in 2008, featured an even broader array of Indian-made systems. Whereas, on INS Sindhuvir, we assembled only one such system, INS Sindhurakshak, which is currently undergoing repairs, twelve Indian systems are being installed. Each new contract for repairs to these submarines attests to the increasing self-sustainability of Indian shipbuilding and we are endeavouring to assist our partners in their efforts as far as possible. We are well aware that the strengthening of Indian submarine forces is our common cause.

As for the current status, Zvyozdochka is working on the interim overhaul and upgrade of a fifth Kilo class Indian submarine – INS Sindhurakshak. The ship arrived in August 2010. The submarine will feature the Club-S missile complex and Ushus hydro-acoustic system. Zvyozdochka will modernise the submarine’s cooling systems, install a CCS-MK-II communications system and a Porpoise radar installation and will conduct other operations.

Zvyozdochka is the primary contractor for modernisation of five Kilo class submarines, involving installation of a Club-S missile system and an Apassionata-EKM.1 integrated navigation system. These operations are performed by our specialists in India, where the ships are based.

Since 2003, we have fulfilled dozens of contracts for delivery of spare parts, tools and accessories, equipment and materials for maintenance of ships and repair of submarines at Indian shipyards, and many contracts are underway.

On the basis of what you have said, Zvyozdochka is apparently working very hard on the Indian market. What are the prospects for your further cooperation with the Indian Navy?

I am certain that the vast experience we have accumulated with our partners in repairing Kilo class submarines must be used to develop the Indian submarine fleet further. Zvyozdochka is ready to repair and upgrade the next submarine – INS Sindhushastra – fast and to the most rigorous quality standards. The service life of this submarine questions the feasibility of interim overhaul. We have already submitted a relevant proposal to the Indian side. We believe that placing an order with Zvyozdochka is the best option for the Indian Navy to maintain the preparedness of the Indian submarine forces. This decision by the Indian side would logically complete the cycle of first plant repairs of Indian Kilo class submarines. Zvyozdochka is also interested in carrying out second plant repairs of these submarines to extend their service life.

India possesses a considerable Kilo submarine task force. A reasonable approach to repairs and modernisation might keep these submarines in service for at least thirty-five years, securing their military characteristics and high combat qualities. The Indian side will gain valuable experience in operating the ships beyond their designed service life and will apply it to ships of other projects. Zvyozdochka is the only Russian shipyard experienced in carrying out medium repairs of submarines to extend their service life. We have developed and introduced administrative and technical arrangements to extend the lives of Russian submarines. These measures, if properly adapted, could be applied to Indian submarines. Zvyozdochka is ready to transfer to its main foreign partner its experience in taking submarines beyond their designed lifespan by using technologies to monitor the technical status of equipment and the ship as a whole, including by means of nondestructive inspection techniques.

If the Indian Navy accepts our proposals regarding second interim repairs to Kilo class submarines, it will be able to maintain the combat readiness of its submarine task force for a long time, while incurring relatively low expenses.

Zvyozdochka is currently the only contractor providing engineering supervision and service maintenance for more than three hundred Russian Navy ships. I presume that our Indian partners will be interested in our experience accumulated during this work. We have already submitted our proposals concerning creation of a system of after-sales and service maintenance of ships to the Indian Navy Command.

Zvyozdochka will naturally continue its activities on the Indian market and expand the range of spare parts, tools and accessories, as well as other military and technical services, delivered to Indian customers. The Republic of India and its navy are our crucial partners and it is on India that we are focusing our primary efforts. Starting with the first Indian ship we accepted for repair, the company has engaged its best-qualified engineers and workers on these projects, wherever the operations are carried out – in Severodvinsk or in India, at the local base.

Our long-term partnership with the Indian Navy and its further promotion call for close cooperation, so we are working on setting up an office of Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Centre in India.

At the beginning of the interview, you mentioned not only business contacts but also friendly relations with the Indian partners…

When we repair a submarine in Severodvinsk, there are from fifty to three hundred Indian citizens here. Some of them work here all the time; others come here for short visits. These are officers and civilians working in the observation group, crew members and assembly and setting specialists working with the Indian systems, together with their wives and children. The children attend kindergartens and schools, study with Russian children, and participate in extracurricular activities – sports and art clubs in our science and technology centre. The adults actively participate in cultural and sporting events along with the city residents. Last summer, an agreement on cooperation in the social and cultural spheres was signed between the crews of Indian ships and the municipal authorities. The ceremony was attended by the Indian Ambassador to Russia Mr Ajai Malhotra. We are doing our best to make our Indian friends feel at home in Russia in every respect. Unfortunately, we cannot control our hard winters but we try to offset these climatic difficulties using the warmth of our hearts and traditional Russian hospitality.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

Good find Philip , Interesting Interview
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajanb »

One thought struck me. So a simple pooch. Will the INS Chakra accompany the INS Arihant on sea trials? has the timing been coordinated to do that?

Doesn't this way of doing it make sense?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Shankar »

believe so chakra will be the chase submarine for Arihant in deep see submergence and speed trials -no other indian submarine have the capability to move that fast or dive that deep (nearly 40 knots and 600 mtr plus i think)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Good Q Rajan.The two subs will definitely be engaged with each other in underwater exercises,to determine the "quietness" of each other,methods of UW commns.,develop tactics etc. The ATV being an entirely new sub class,that too a prototype SSBN,will be most closely monitored by foreign SSNs,both from east and west.One of the tasks of the Chakra will be tasked with escorting the sub when it is undergoing its sea trials,to sanitise the area and we may even have some of our conventional subs,usually quieter than N-subs,also involved.The level of the ATV's quietness is the most important factor for its survivability,and the Chakra/Akula has special unique sensors to detect,wake,radiation,etc.,with which it will be able to determine the "signature" and "quietness" of the ATV.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by NRao »

rajanb wrote:One thought struck me. So a simple pooch. Will the INS Chakra accompany the INS Arihant on sea trials? has the timing been coordinated to do that?

Doesn't this way of doing it make sense?
No.

Because the Chakra was supposed to come a few years ago. Supposedly the Chakra was to train Indian seamen for the Arihant.

The timing of the Chakra is accidental.

In fact there was an article that stated that some questioned the need for a Chakra = since it came so late. ?????
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajanb »

Am confused. One says yes and the other says no. :(( That is the problem with democracy.

But what the heck, democracy is the best way to go. :)

Methinks, that the Chakra will accompany the Arihant. And they can compare notes. A volume of information can be garnered in this comparison of the difference in characteristics and the why not and how questions will arise. And be inputs to the ongoing build program.

The use of the Chakra to train sailors is just for public consumption.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Given the limited sub-building rresources in the country,esp. N-subs,both SSBNs and SSN/SSGNs are required for the strategic and blue-water warfare needs of the IN.In the future we hopefully will be operatig at least 5-6 of each type.The Chakra was delayed by over a year due to the wel known accident which tool plave when she was the Nerpa,during her fitting out.With two more ATVs acknowledged to be in the pipeline,the need for at least one more Akula asap is must so that there are enough boats for both training and operational missions for the subs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

Chakra being a latest mark Akula will be a good benchmarking tool to test the quietness of the Arihant in many conditions upto its top speed (akula will have a higher top speed so arihant can open max throttle) and also the efficacy of its sonar and passive sensors. they can play friendly cat vs cat and see who gets the drop on who.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chaanakya »

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/235 ... april.html
India to induct nuclear submarine in April first week
New Delhi, Mar 19, 2012 (PTI)

In a major boost to its underwater strike capabilities, India will induct its Russian-origin nuclear-powered submarine 'Nerpa' in the first week of April.

'Nerpa', which will be rechristened as 'INS Chakra', is scheduled to arrive at its home base of Visakhapatnam in the first week of April and is expected to be commissioned formally into the Indian Navy by Defence Minister A K Antony on April 5, Defence Ministry officials told PTI here today.

The submarine will be on a ten-year lease under a deal expected to be worth over USD 920 million, they said. An Indian crew had set sail with the Akula II class vessel to India in the end of January.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

HumsaNG++ on Arhiant should do the works to monitor akula, and learn.
Also think about integrating with bouys or reusable probe based detection integration to improved subsurface to surface targets. the bouys could house miniature AESAs, and convert them as sound signals for Humsa integration. possible? yes I think so.

it would be interesting project for our engineering kids too., marconi reborns!
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Aditya G »

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shyamd »

I dont like all these photos of chakra. Shouldnt give away design secrets. Gora's cover their secrets big time especially with subs. This is why they didnt release the arihant on induction and tricked the spies.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

shyamd wrote:I dont like all these photos of chakra. Shouldnt give away design secrets. Gora's cover their secrets big time especially with subs. This is why they didnt release the arihant on induction and tricked the spies.
How does releasing photos give away design secrets or any secrets associated with nuclear submarine ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shyamd »

There are certain things on the design that are not released (Top secret) - why do you think ATV design wasnt released, only certain pictures of ATV (in certain angles) were released that too a week or so after inauguration and we let the sattellites leave the area before we released it.

EDITED
Last edited by shyamd on 01 Apr 2012 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Austin »

^ Interesting !
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shyamd »

I think they let it out because west is probably aware of signature of the akulas.

The guys dealing with arihant are some of the best minds in the country. RAW is still providing intelligence cover for the project just like smiling Buddha.

We should be proud of these guys.
Last edited by shyamd on 01 Apr 2012 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

shyamd , what leads you to conclude that showing submarine would let its capability or secrets out , we have seen pictures of US , French , UK and Russian submarine in close up quite a few time and they dont seem to worry about reveling such information ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Will »

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