INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Will · Post by **Will** » 31 Mar 2012 22:35

Was reading Sandeep U's article in the latest India Today. Wonder where he got that titbit that the future Indian nuke subs will be of 12000 Ton displacement. Does he mean the next batch after the initial 3 nuke subs or just some future speculation. Dont think the current 80MW reactor is enough to power a 12K ton sub unless they use two.But then using two would be a task in itself. Anyone know if any nuke subs use two reactors?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2012 22:37

Will wrote: Anyone know if any nuke subs use two reactors?

Delta 4 and Typhoon SSBN have two reactors

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 31 Mar 2012 23:12

Shaymd - please dont post much in this thread.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Apr 2012 04:38

Austin wrote:shyamd , what leads you to conclude that showing submarine would let its capability or secrets out , we have seen pictures of US , French , UK and Russian submarine in close up quite a few time and they dont seem to worry about reveling such information ?

Reality is quite different. They are extremely careful. They dont permit certain things to be shown in pictures. Sorry I cant say any more.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Apr 2012 04:50

and the Indian Navy does not know that??

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Apr 2012 05:26

I hope so, probably yes. I did speculate why they did.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2012 06:44

The kind of sub bases we need for our SSBNs and SSGNs.

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-186816.html

The Journey of Discovery gets a taste of the Cold War as the Land Rover Discovery vehicles experience a top-secret drive through hidden tunnels in a former Soviet Black Sea submarine base.

In 1953, Joseph Stalin signed the plans for a top-secret nuclear submarine base that would become the operational home for the fearsome Soviet Black Sea Fleet.

Hidden inside the base of a mountain in the port town of Balaklava on Ukraine's Crimean coast, the 15,300 square foot facility took nine years to build and its entrance was camouflaged from view from any spy plane. It could survive a direct nuclear hit and at maximum capacity could hold 3,000 people with supplies to sustain them for a month. Best of all, the vast subs that slunk in and out of here between tours of duty could enter and leave underwater, keeping them from prying eyes at all times.

Once the most sensitive and secretive of Soviet Cold War hotspots, today it is preserved as a museum - and as the Land Rover Journey of Discovery passed through town on its 8,000 mile route to Beijing, the vehicles were given unique authorisation to drive through the labyrinth of tunnels inside. They were the first to do so since the Soviet trucks and trailers that ferried in missiles, supplies and essentials over its 40 years of operation.

Driving through the cavernous entrance carved into the heavy rock of the mountain was pure James Bond, but the base that unfolded inside was a hard-hitting mix of superspy fantasy and the hard reality of the Cold War world in which it played such a key part.

The local guide explained how the facility was split into two clear sections either side of the huge kilometre-long submarine channel that ran through the centre of it, one side used for the operational running of the base and the other for arming the nuclear warheads. Then she dropped a bombshell of her own.

She had worked on the operational side of the base for five years with level-two security clearance - just one step below the highest possible - yet in all her time there she had never even known the nuclear side existed. The first she knew of it was when she began guiding tours here years later.

As she puts it: "it was in our culture then not to ask about what didn't concern us. A common saying at the time was â€˜the less you know, the better you sleep'."

Not only was this place so secretive that even its own employees were kept in the dark, every possible measure was taken to keep it from the outside world too. This included removing Balaklava from all maps in 1957 (it would be 1992 before it reappeared) and even employees' family members from neighbouring Sevastopol - itself a closed city that needed heavy security clearance to access - were put through extensive vetting before any visits to loved ones were allowed.

Inside the base we first toured the operational side, working our way through the broad network of tunnels until we came to the dry dock, so large that it was capable of holding a 300-foot submarine.

Beside the dry dock was the huge submarine channel itself, with space for six such subs end to end. Curved to deflect any blast inside the base, the channel is lined with steel gangways above head height. It must have been a fearsome environment when in full flow, with a hulking sub sitting in the black water and the loud echoes of urgent footfalls, the clanking of tools and the humming of generators.

Crossing to the other side of the base became even more interesting. Here even the tunnels making up the connecting network within were curved for blast protection, because this was where the missiles themselves were armed.

We saw the very cabinet where the radioactive parts of the weapons were stored. Now empty, its massive steel roller door sits ajar just as it was left when the lethal payload it once concealed was taken from here by the Soviet authorities.

Finally, we came to the epicentre of this underground lair, the room that stored the armed missiles. It looks innocuous now, but to imagine this place primed with as many as 50 nuclear devices is sobering indeed.

As a final unusual touch, our guide pointed out a simple looking plastic mount, similar to a small patio light, attached to the wall of the room and holding a solitary human hair. This most basic of devices monitored the humidity in the room, which had to be critically maintained at 60 per cent - deviation either way could have resulted in an explosion large enough to destroy the entire base, not to mention the mountain that housed it and much of the surrounding area. If the hair began bending, that was the engineers' cue to adjust the ventilation, and quickly.

Rolling back out into the sunlight of Balaklava's bay was almost as odd as driving in had been, but for quite different reasons.

Now instead of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet, the bay is home to a glittering array of yachts from all over the world and at the water's edge instead of subs skulking in and out, a throng of locals were indulging in a spot of fishing while shooting the breeze over a couple of beers.

If that isn't a sign of progress, I don't know what is.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2012 06:55

If the pics are accurate,then the Chakra may not be upto Gepard std. (Ak-3),the most modern of the Akula class,considered a "4th-gen sub".Akula-2s are considered "3rd-gen".The key difference being the pod atop the tailfin housing the towed sonar array.This was supposedly found to be causing the cable to foul with the screw at low speeds,perhaps due to wake formation.In the Gepard,the pod is absent. Since the Chakra was an unfinished sub,the pod and sonar array and sail too may have already been completed earlier and to change these features would've incurred considerable extra costs.One needs to see more pics of the Chakra to determine from her hull sensors,etc.,how she compares with the Gepard.Unless the pics have been airbrushed,one cannot see the SOKS and other wakehoming sensors on the sail and hull.There are other significant differences.For example,in the Gepard,the sail is not flared out at an angle to the hull as much as in an Ak-2.There is also an extra hatch on the starboard side of the sail.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 12:00

shyamd wrote:Reality is quite different. They are extremely careful. They dont permit certain things to be shown in pictures. Sorry I cant say any more.

With due respect shyam , I think you know very little about subs and exactly what constitutes a secret for subs , the exterior holds very little secret that can be useful to any one , hence most countries do not hide it , they dont even hide the blade these days.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 12:04

Philip the Nerpa/Chakra-2 reportedly differs compared to other Akula-2 , It lacks SOKS sensors , has a different sonar suite compared to SKAT-3 and has an all 8x 533 mm TT , the podded towed are of the larger type.

The new thing on Nerpa is that it has more modern machinery which is reportedly quieter compared to earlier models and is an all digital Akula subs , reportedly the only all digital akula or perhaps the second after gepard.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 01 Apr 2012 12:16

Austin wrote:
shyamd wrote:Reality is quite different. They are extremely careful. They dont permit certain things to be shown in pictures. Sorry I cant say any more.
With due respect shyam , I think you know very little about subs and exactly what constitutes a secret for subs , the exterior holds very little secret that can be useful to any one , hence most countries do not hide it , they dont even hide the blade these days.

Austin, he has already mentioned about how certain objects are top secret and cannot be released in photos. So, photos are released of certain angles that countries want others to see and not of the critical ones.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 12:33

Ivanev wrote:Austin, he has already mentioned about how certain objects are top secret and cannot be released in photos. So, photos are released of certain angles that countries want others to see and not of the critical ones.

Which is fine and i accept that , they simply PS it but that really does not constitute core secrets of subs ,subs secrets are of different nature and external photos constitute little to it. One of the reason most countries dont worry much of subs being photographed externally and are openly shown in dry docks in repairs or during launch.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Apr 2012 12:39

To show OR not to show, that is the question:

I think a lot of the tech now is online for all to see - you can see the screws on everything, from a lada, to even the Gepard and U-214 on the net. No big deal. HOWEVER, when something like the latest and greatest comes out, they still hide stuff - case in point: the Yuri Dolgoruky, the first Borei class. Bill Sweetman points out that the new thing in terms of propellers is pump jets and the Yuri possibly has this. Wouldn't be surprised if some of this tech has made it to the IN boats.

http://aviationweek.typepad.com/ares/si ... im/page/2/

So there may be good reasons to hide, better safe than sorry.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 13:01

Arihant has Akula level technology as reveled by Russian Ambassador interview some time back.

As far as hiding the sub goes , recent launch and commisioning of Western and Russian Nuclear subs namely Yuri SSBN , French Le Triomphant and Astute, Virginia ,Sea Wolf , Severdvinisk SSN that i have seen including high res ones only the Props or Pump Jet are well covered , the rest of the subs are open to photography.

Even the Nerpa pictures available shows the entire sub but hides the props , an indication that its very sensitive.

It really boils down to individual nation on what to revel and hide , the Chinese and Indian are quite sensitive and hide entire stuff , the Western stuff are most open and Russians are some where in between these days.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Apr 2012 15:23

Props are very sensitive as I mentioned earlier hence why they are hidden, but you won't find the kilo class props hidden for example . On some subs they are picky even on the surface.

If they do release photos, then that means they are comfortable doing it. As you mentioned the props are hidden usually. They are pretty fussy and naturally it depends on country to country, design features snd how old it is etc, but unfortunately I can't go into specifics and specific incidents to tell you more about the great lengths they go to.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 16:27

shyamd wrote:unfortunately I can't go into specifics and specific incidents to tell you more about the great lengths they go to.

Fine with me as well , Like i said it varies from country to country what one country might just find it secret the other might just not see merit , some countries are paranoid as well like former SU that would go to exterme length to hide while countries like US are quite practical on such matters.

In the end all sub faring nations knows what to hide and what to revel and are not naive to show what constitutes secret including the IN.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 16:28

here is from rian , infograph nerpa

http://en.rian.ru/images/17249/07/172490783.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Apr 2012 21:09

Indian Navy to operate two nuclear submarines in near future

NEW DELHI: With India set to induct the Russian 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine next week, DRDO Chief V K Saraswat today said the INS Arihant-- the indigenous nuclear under-water vessel, would be launched for operations in the near future.

"INS Arihant is in advanced stages. It will be ready for operations in next few months... It (the nuclear reactor) is not critical yet," DRDO Chief V K Sarswat told a press conference here.

The Nerpa has been taken on lease from Russia for ten years and would provide Navy the opportunity to train and operate such nuclear-powered vessels.

India is also working to develop the arsenal for Arihant as it has already carried out more than 10 test launches of the K-15 missile (also known as Sagarika) in the Bay of Bengal.

"K-15 has undergone two trials recently. It is in the final phases of development and is getting ready towards induction... more than ten trials have been carried out so far," Saraswat said.

The DRDO chief said the research body has entered into collaborations with countries including the UK, Brazil, Belarus and Germany for research and development work.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 01 Apr 2012 21:33

I do like to see agni 4 & 5 fire from INS Arihant.I think with these sub we shuold create 3rd fleat like decon(southern)fleet,which can operate with east/western fleet as a shadow on them.As we know more Arihant in pipe line.Later we can add Cruisers/Destroyers for longer ranges.Its A thought.

Will · Post by **Will** » 01 Apr 2012 22:01

What would a typical Vikramaditya battle group consist of?

A/C 1 nos
DDG 2 nos
Frigates 2 nos
Corvettes ??
Submarines 2 nos
Tanker 1 no

??????????

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 04:24

So K15 proofing required more than 10 launches so far.

The range and vehicle could be proofed from ground launches. The underwater launch is proofed from the pontoon. Next step is submarine launches. Say three to four. Single and ripple launches to show no fratricide effects.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Apr 2012 04:56

Austin,are you sure that all tubes are of std. size? One report had the sub having two sizes as in Russsian boats.Liners can be used for missile firing until we have developed our larger diameter cruise missiles.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 02 Apr 2012 06:41

"It (the nuclear reactor) is not critical yet,"

But weren't there reports that it did go critical back in early 2011?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 08:08

He means full power. There are different levels of criticality for the reactor.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Apr 2012 08:15

Nuclear submarine INS Arihant in advanced stage of integration : DRDO Chief

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Apr 2012 09:17

Cometh the hour, cometh the shark:
N-sub Chakra takes India into P5 club

India will join an elite club of five nations on Wednesday when Russian-origin nuclear power submarine Nerpa will be inducted in the Indian Navy for the next 10 years.

Currently, only P5 – the USA, the UK, Russia, France and China – operate nuclear submarines. India will be the sixth country to join the league when Defence Minister A K Antony completes the formalities at a function inside a high-security dockyard in Vishakhapatnam.

Nuclear submarines have strategic advantages as they stay underwater for several months unlike the conventional diesel-electric submarines that needs to surface after a few hours if it runs in high speed.

The 8,140 tonne Russian-origin submarine – rechristened INS Chakra – can stay under water for 100 days and can travel at a speed in excess of 25 knots. “It’s a valuable asset, which will bring a new range of capability. It will provide the Navy an ordnance delivery platform, rapidly anywhere in the Indian Ocean. That’s the advantage,” said a naval source.

The N-submarine’s arsenal includes anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes, anti-ship missile and surface-to-air missile. However, it will not complete the nuclear triad, which India was aiming at since the 1998 nuclear tests. The triad will be realised only with the operationalisation of the indigenous SSN, INS Arihant. SSN (Arihant) is a hunter-killer whereas SSBN (Chakra) is a strategic platform designed for second strike capability.

Am sure that the Chakra sailed into Vizag a few days back and the news about slow sailing across Indonesia etc was psy-ops.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 02 Apr 2012 09:53

INS Arihant. SSN (Arihant) is a hunter-killer whereas SSBN (Chakra) is a strategic platform designed for second strike capability

Shouldn't it read the other way around ?

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Apr 2012 10:01

Usual DDM....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2012 21:04

DDM as usual.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Apr 2012 14:19

It sure will connnnnnfuse the PLAN and PN.What if...the reverse is true? That the ATV is a big lie and its only an SSGN,but the Chakra is the real SSBM,with long range N-tipped cruise missiles....and we're told that Nirbhay is being tested this month.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Apr 2012 10:37

chakra pics on ajaishukla's blog looks huge

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Apr 2012 10:57

Akula are the largest SSN in the world even bigger than USN Sea Wolf class , probably it will remain so till its superseded by Yasen.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Apr 2012 11:02

The most awesome thing about those pictures is the fact that the INS Jalashva is in the background.

Who would have ever thought that you would see a Shchuka-B SSN and an Austin class LPD under the same banner in the same picture?

Yonlee in Yindia. Yonlee in Yindia. He he.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Apr 2012 11:11

This question has been asked before, but now that the INS Chakra is here, was the original deal for one or two Schuka-B subs ? For a long time the details about this deal have been murky. At various times its veracity, the timeline of arrival of the INS Chakra, and the number of subs in the leasing deal have all been under question. At least part of these have now been answered, so the remaining question is, would there be a second one ? For operational purposes it makes sense to have leased 2, or even 3 SSNs; the Arihant will be a fleet ballistic missile sub testbed, with its successors being mature deterrence platforms.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Apr 2012 11:11

One of the best documented information on Akula is in the link below , a bit pain since its in russian but can you translator

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-273.html

Confirms Nerpa has new type of Rescue System and has 8 x 533 mm TT

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Apr 2012 11:21

Well, the Russians were actually keen to lease several SSNs. It suits them and some here believe it suits us as well.

"There is a real possibility of leasing out to India several of our submarines powered by nuclear reactors for a term of 10 years," Itar-Tass quoted Mikhail Dmitriyev, the head of Russia's Federal Military and Technical Cooperation Service (FSVTS).

http://in.reuters.com/article/2008/12/1 ... 6220081215 <An old story>

And I remember Ruslan Pukhov from CAST consistently talking about a situation wherein India should bring in SSGNs given China's acquisition of carrier capability.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Apr 2012 12:11

Video at undi

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/y ... topstories

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 04 Apr 2012 12:22

If one has any time, class DDM act on the BBC world service. Sanjoy Majumder reporting from Vishakhapatnam says, when asked what the submarine looks like, "it has a cone like thing on its fin, this device apparently powers the submarine"!

Will · Post by **Will** » 04 Apr 2012 13:54

D Roy wrote:Well, the Russians were actually keen to lease several SSNs. It suits them and some here believe it suits us as well.

"There is a real possibility of leasing out to India several of our submarines powered by nuclear reactors for a term of 10 years," Itar-Tass quoted Mikhail Dmitriyev, the head of Russia's Federal Military and Technical Cooperation Service (FSVTS).

http://in.reuters.com/article/2008/12/1 ... 6220081215 <An old story>

And I remember Ruslan Pukhov from CAST consistently talking about a situation wherein India should bring in SSGNs given China's acquisition of carrier capability.

Well what India needs is not just Nuke Submarines but also the tech for those SL long range cruise and ballastic missiles.

Without long range missiles the subs are like a shark with just 1/3rd of its teeth

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Apr 2012 14:00

please continue the nerpa/chakra discussion at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6373

I will move the posts from this thread later,
Rahul.