INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Philip
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Once we have mastered the art of designing and building n-reactors for subs and warships,our capital ships like carriers,amphibious warships,large surface warships of 10-12000t+ ,which have multi-ocean blue-water roles,should increasingly use N-power.This is because strategically,our petro requirements will be huge in the future with much competition with China,etc. for the same.

This is why the US is so keen to "capture" Venezuela by any crooked means,because Venezuela has the word's largest reserves of oil.The US oil companies attitude is that Venezuela is sitting on "their oil"! It was the same with Iraq,the invasion was "all about oil".This also why a huge pipeline is being constructed across the US,bringing in Canadian shale oil to Texas of all places! Why because of the "Coke" Brothers (Koch) oil intrerests.

We actually require two nuclear bases for our SSBNs,one on each coast,preferable at Karwar and at Rambili.We also need another base for a future amphibious force that can become an Indian Marine Corps,with at least 3 amphib. divisions,preferably 5.This would be best based on the east coast,so that in the event of any crisis,forces could be moved to safeguard the A$N islands,repel any extraneous force from moving into Sri Lanka via Hambantota, and which could move into the S.Indian ocean if needed for Mauritius or the Malldives.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

imo instead of 5 amphib divisions it is a lot efficient to engineer the situation in IOR such that only friendly regimes survive and prosper on our watch and we have a network of small and medium bases that make a invasion capability redundant.

but ofcourse that will never happen under a INC Govt.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

True.Also true is the speed with which situations change,esp. in the Maldives.Our reaction to events there would've best been served with an IN naval "exercise" just outside Maldivian waters.Take this worst case scenario.In a stealth op,China sends in troops into Hambantota and Trincomalee in a "humanitarian" gesture-say another tsunami for instance, upon request of the GOSL,because of intense anti-Lankan actions by the GOI thanks to the TN tail "wagging the dog".Without our knowledge,several merchant vessels stocked with arms and eqpt. have already been sent earlier,in similar fashion as the US stations "pre-positioned" logistic vessels at Diego Garcia for quick movement into the Gulf.The SL armed forces now possess an army,well trained and battle hardened ,of over 100,000 troops,who know the lay of the land better than anyone.These Chinesse troops are at the invitation of the GOSL.What will India do?

In the aftermath of the anti-Lankan rhetoric and demos in TN,the goonda acts by the Eelamists in TN beating up Buddhist monks at our temples,and the capitulation of the UPA-2 to the Eelamists,the GOSL has allegedly swiftly asked the IOC to hand back the oil tanks at Trinco which aren't being utilised.These are to be handed over to the Chinese allege reports.

Interstingly,there has always been talk of an ancient inscription/prophecy ,which I first heard 30+ years ago when in Trinco,about foreign armies coming to the island.An army from the north would come,but go back,only to be later replaced by those with yellow faces.I am not sure whether this inscription is at the Swami Rock temple or elsewhere,but many believe it to be true.

Here is an interesting website about the temple,and its destruction by the Portugese.

http://lankabhumi.org/koneswaram.htm

Trincomalee in Legend and History
Aerial view of Swami Rock with Koneswaram Temple, Trincomalee.
Bird's eye view of Swami Rock, Trincomalee

view of Koneswaram Temple, Trincomalee.
The site of the ancient Tiru Koneswaram Temple upon Swami Rock, Trincomalee. Modern-day Tiru Koneswaram Temple may be seen in the background.

Renowned in legend and history, by a variety of names—Kōna Malai, Kōnā Malai, Tiru Kōna Malai — Trincomalee is the site of the "Sacred Hill of the Three Temples." Situated on the eastern seaboard, the place finds mention in the Mahavamsa by the name of Gōkarna, the Sanskrit and Pali form of the Tamil KONa or Sinhalese GOna.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

India makes headway with ELF site construction (Janes)
By James Hardy
3/4/2013
Imagery taken by DigitalGlobe in January 2013 provides an update on the construction of India's new Extremely Low-Frequency (ELF) facility in the south of the country.

The construction began in March 2012, when Admiral Nirmal Verma, chief of the naval staff of the Indian Navy (IN), laid the cornerstone for the ELF facility near the village of Vijaya Narayanam, about 23 km north of the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant in Tamil Nadu. It is co-located with the IN's Very Low-Frequency (VLF) communications station, which transmits at 18.2 kHz.

The ELF station, which is believed to be being built by Indian firm Larsen & Toubro, will have nuclear-hardened bunkers and is expected to be commissioned in 2015. Russia is closely associated with the research and development for the facility, which is expected to be similar to Russia's own ELF transmitter at the ZEVS facility near Murmansk.

ELF transmission is used to communicate very brief commands to submerged submarines. Such transmissions can travel thousands of miles and through extended depths of seawater. ELF transmissions are generally initiated during circumstances in which conventional communications channels have been disrupted or destroyed.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

India will be the only country after US and Russia to have both VLF and ELF facility

Some details on ZEVS ELF facility on which our ELF facility will be based on.

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

I would imagine Cheen is also putting something in place ...
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

They dont go that far to need stuff beyond Aldis Lamp.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by member_23370 »

ELF is needed is SSBN's have to hide in the Southern Ocean.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

HT reports that a confidential doc. from the IN to the MOD says that Chinese nuclear/conventional subs have been tracked 22 times during the last year,near the A&N islands,Malacca Straits,off the southern Lankan coast off Hambantota-many contcts, and two off the Kerala/Konkan coast,most probably snooping around Cochin andKarawr..Most contacts have been around 100km of Indian shores,but well within range of Chinese sub launched cruise missiles.
What is further disturbing is that on some occasions,the Chinese meant to be detected,as if to send an upturned finger to India!

As we've been warning for aeons on BR,that before they transit into the IOR through the Malacca Straits. the PLAN would intrude into the IOR,it is now happened,far sooner than many predicted.past time to accelerate an IN facility in Vietnam to counter the PLAN in the Indo-China Sea .The dereliction of duty by the UPA-2 in not pursuing the second line of subs and augmenting the dwindling fleet with new acquisitions of existing types,is simply scandalous,especially that the Scorpene acquisition is about 4-5 years behind schedule.With the PLAN negotiating 4+ Amur subs too,the situation is becoming critical for the In which numwericallly is simply ournumbered by the PLAN's sub fleet of about 60-80 (2020)subs,mostly new.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by titash »

Philip wrote:HT reports that a confidential doc. from the IN to the MOD says that Chinese nuclear/conventional subs have been tracked 22 times during the last year,near the A&N islands,Malacca Straits,off the southern Lankan coast off Hambantota-many contcts, and two off the Kerala/Konkan coast,most probably snooping around Cochin andKarawr..Most contacts have been around 100km of Indian shores,but well within range of Chinese sub launched cruise missiles.
What is further disturbing is that on some occasions,the Chinese meant to be detected,as if to send an upturned finger to India!

As we've been warning for aeons on BR,that before they transit into the IOR through the Malacca Straits. the PLAN would intrude into the IOR,it is now happened,far sooner than many predicted.past time to accelerate an IN facility in Vietnam to counter the PLAN in the Indo-China Sea .The dereliction of duty by the UPA-2 in not pursuing the second line of subs and augmenting the dwindling fleet with new acquisitions of existing types,is simply scandalous,especially that the Scorpene acquisition is about 4-5 years behind schedule.With the PLAN negotiating 4+ Amur subs too,the situation is becoming critical for the In which numwericallly is simply ournumbered by the PLAN's sub fleet of about 60-80 (2020)subs,mostly new.
Philip,

We discussed this several times in BR forums. PLAN nuclear subs have the range and endurance to operate in the IN. And why wouldn't they? Having SSNs lurk in the BoB is a very cheap way of giving us the jitters.

If we have say 50,000 crores to allocate towards counter-ASW forces, would you invest all of it in 5 SSN or 10 SSK or 100 aircraft or 2000 SOSUS arrays? You need a balanced mix of forces, and blindly increasing our SSN/SSK numbers is not the answer

The cheapest and most effective response for us (given our location) is flexible ASW assets...P-8I + Heavy ASW copters. With 20-30 networked aircraft and ships monitoring surfaced ships, missile launches, etc, the SSN may get off the first shot but will find it very hard to strike again

The PLAN SSKs don't matter unless they're based in Burma/Sri Lanka. They do not have the range or endurance to undertake any significant missions in our backyard...even with AIP. And if they are based in Burma/Sri Lanka, there will be hell to pay

Thanks,
Philip
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

titash,I've given in an earlier post the maritime port-to-port distances which show that conventional subs cab conduct patrols in the IOR,more so if they have AIP,which several PLAN subs now have.The best anti-sub weapon is another quieter sub and we lack numbers.Our numbers of LRMP aircraft too is woefully inadequate for the task,even if we have 3 times as much.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by member_23370 »

A sub is never the right weapon against another sub. Its always ASW ship or plane. Need at least 16-P-8I and 24 MRMP.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

We can purchase a couple squadrons of p8i for the price of one scorpene. A fleet of around 50 p8i should be able to spread some fear among any hostile submarines.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Klaus »

Austin wrote:India will be the only country after US and Russia to have both VLF and ELF facility

Some details on ZEVS ELF facility on which our ELF facility will be based on.

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm
IIRC, Greater Coco Island of Myanmar also is being used by PRC as a listening post. Is it too far fetched to preclude the possibility of a ELF facility there?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

A elf facility is for worldwide use. It could be in beijing and still work for ior, no need to fwd base it
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Klaus »

^^^ Thankyou. That would explain the location of the US facility at the lake-front. I'd earlier assumed that ELF facility had to be compulsorily located at coastal areas, due to the electrical conductivity property of sea-water.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Klaus wrote:^^^ Thankyou. That would explain the location of the US facility at the lake-front. I'd earlier assumed that ELF facility had to be compulsorily located at coastal areas, due to the electrical conductivity property of sea-water.
Klaus ji, there is a nice explanation of ELF & VLF systems by Sayan Majumdar here:

http://www.indiadefence.com/subcomm.htm
The Indian Navy had anticipated the importance of VLF (Very Low Frequency) underwater transmissions long ago. As part of an ambitious naval modernisation program, during the mid-1980s the Indian Navy had constructed a VLF (Very Low Frequency) broadcasting station in Tamil Nadu. Although not publicly declared, it was reported that the United States actively collaborated in the project, which was completed in September 1986.
A powerful 200KW transmitter provides the VLF transmissions in TACAMO. The United States Navy utilizes an EC-130A/Q Hercules with a trailing wire antennae 10km long with a drogue parachute at the end. During transmission the aircraft flies in a continuous tight circle, which results in over 70 percent of the wire hanging straight down and acting as a relatively efficient vertical antennae.

Presently the E-6 Mercury is the airborne platform of the United States TACAMO Communications System. It provides survivable communication links between the United States NCA (National Command Authority) and Strategic Forces. Long range, air refuelable E-6 is a derivative of the commercial Boeing 707 aircraft equipped with four CFM-56-2A-2 high bypass ratio fan/jet engines with thrust reversers. The weapon system is EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) hardened. Mission range is over 6000 nautical miles. E-6B fulfils both TACAMO and ABNCP (Airborne National Command Post) missions.
The whole article is very detailed, please go through it.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Klaus »

^^^ Thanks.

Just to further the discussion on this, should India refit/retro-fit a couple of P-8I's for the VLF role (by installing a trailing antenna similar to the US TACAMO's), just to ensure greater survivability of the aging VLF facility.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SSridhar »

Image

A sight to behold:Indian Navy’s nuclear submarine on a trial run off the Visakhapatnam coast on Saturday.- Photo: K.R. Deepak, Courtesy: The Hindu, April 14, 2013
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by kmc_chacko »

^^ :D :D
Proudest moment for an Indian
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by parshuram »

Pardon me but ain't the foto is of akula
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pankajs »

Looks like INS Chakra...Unless Arihant is based on Akula II design...
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by karan_mc »

Photo caption says "indian Navy's nuclear submarine" it could be INS Chakra
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

^^^^Thats not the INS Arihant..
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Will »

Easily recognized as an Akula,
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Correct.The Chakra it is,see the distinctive spherical escape chamber atop the sail.Incidentally,reg. the debate about sub-launched missiles,the USS Florida launched almost 100 Tomahawak cruise missiles in the Libyan campaign. USN plans to augment its cruise missile carrying capability of its nuclear subs after the Ohios (SSBN converts to SSSGN) start being retired, by adding a section to Virginia class subs abaft the sail.These silos can carry upto 7 Tomahawk missiles per silo and will be additional silos to those forward of the sail.adding extra sections to subs is not a difficult task and Indian conventional and nuclear subs could have missile silo sections with significant missile carrying capability,so that they can perform either a strategic role with a larger ICBM per silo or tactical role with smaller but larger numbers of cruise/tactical missiles.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

^ they are not difficult only for those who have complete command of the design food chain and decades of prior exp. we are still at stage where significant russian help is likely being obtained for the n-sub projects.
and adding such sections will have an impact on the top speed - may not be a issue for the powerful bleeding edge reactors of the big boys, could be an issue for the more modest reactors we have.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vasu raya »

SSridhar wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dyna ... 27675f.jpg

A sight to behold:Indian Navy’s nuclear submarine on a trial run off the Visakhapatnam coast on Saturday.- Photo: K.R. Deepak, Courtesy: The Hindu, April 14, 2013
Does this imply that the Chakra came back after a 3-4 month patrol, the last time it was 'seen' was around the 2012 Navy day

Also, most of the Chinese sub contacts in IOR were reported before the arrival of Chakra, one was reported in Jan 2013. Looks like another leased Chakra will be needed so as to cover both the ocean flanks of India
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^
What is the white blob that is floating behind the submarine?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

looks like a fishing boat with a small sail
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by maz »

It is likely Chakra was on sea trials after completing a refit at HSL.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Suraj »

Those are our own Gagan's drawings from 2009 in the first two pics.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by dinesha »

One of the most distinguished and prominent feature of the INS Arihant would be the long sail planes on the conning tower..

Image
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by tushar_m »

Is there any news on the follow-on subs of 12-16 vls , no interpretation or design out yet ???
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

US N-subs in the future are being planned to have a single row of larger dia missile silos ,both forward and abaft the sail,as in the Virginia class.each silo will be able to carry 7 cruise missiles.The size of our future sub-launched ICBMs will determine the size and number of silos and the increased size of the sub,which will also need a more powerful reactor and a second set of larger TTs.I think that the IN's plan is to eventually use the Arihant as an SSGN once larger ATVs are built with increased number of missile silos,etc.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by KrishnaK »

There was some post here detailing how the Arihant class is a hybrid SSN/SSBN. Does anybody have a link to that ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Snehashis »

Arihant surfaced! Well on a tablo.


http://i37.tinypic.com/9ayc7n.jpg


Hull diameter and length looks a bit larger than Akula and also looks like it has a twin shaft.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Snehashis »

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by negi »

Is that accurate ? Where are the diving planes ? As per the official pictures the diving planes should be on the coning tower.
Last edited by negi on 20 Apr 2013 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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