INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 28 Jul 2009 21:14

Going by Sandeep Unnithan sketches, closest class i can find is skipjack. Dont know is it a mere coincidence; that class was the first SSBN for US navy. Check few pics

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858901.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858902.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858903.jpg

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 28 Jul 2009 21:31

My 2 cents to the conjectures here.

INS Arihant is more like a prototype or pilot plant platform. Also, it is designed to serve a minimal sea based deterrant until larger and better platforms hit the sea.

In the next 15 years when threat perceptions change and on availabilty of larger and more capable platforms, IN may think of turning Arihant into a maritime version of Samyukta.

Regards,
Kiran

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 28 Jul 2009 21:48

Kanson wrote:Going by Sandeep Unnithan sketches, closest class i can find is skipjack. Dont know is it a mere coincidence; that class was the first SSBN for US navy. Check few pics

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858901.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858902.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0858903.jpg

Hey Skipjack is an attack sub not a SSBN

K

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 28 Jul 2009 21:53

^^^ USS George Washington is based on Skipjack class, if i'm not wrong. And I believe this Arihant class is a stop gap measure till a full fledged SSBN comes out.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 28 Jul 2009 22:22

For me i have become the biggest joker,as the person who have worked on the project gone into the sub himeself has not seen the Sub . What a joke but its a reality.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Jul 2009 23:55

Self deleted. Understand those/ similar feelings ^^^^, it's sad.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 29 Jul 2009 00:48

pkudva wrote:For me i have become the biggest joker,as the person who have worked on the project gone into the sub himeself has not seen the Sub . What a joke but its a reality.

The Arihant is so big and even though one has created one section of it in L&T one does not get to see the full ATV.

Somewhat like in Mahabharat Arjun was with Lord Krishn but could not see Him the God in the Vishvarupa ('Universal Form'), untill Krishn gave him the divine eyes to see His 'Universal Form', and with devine eyes when Arjun saw the Lord's 'Universal Form' and there was no end to form and was everything in it; including living and non-living, the creator, destroyer, demo-Gods and Himself the sole enjoyer of the worlds. Seeing His full form Arjun shivered.

Krishn's Universal Form- Image

CHAPTER XI, Universal Form

KRISHNA:

"Behold, O son of Pritha, my forms by hundreds and by thousands, of diverse kinds divine, of many shapes and fashions. Behold the Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Asvins, and the Maruts, see things wonderful never seen before, O son of Bharata. Here in my body now behold, O Gudakesa, the whole universe animate and inanimate gathered here in one, and all things else thou hast a wish to see. But as with thy natural eyes thou are not able to see me, I will give thee the divine eye. Behold my sovereign power and might!"

SANJAYA:

O king, having thus spoken, Hari (1), the mighty Lord of mysterious power, showed to the son of Pritha his supreme form; with many mouths and eyes and many wonderful appearances, with many divine ornaments, many celestial weapons upraised; adorned with celestial garlands and robes, anointed with celestial ointments and perfumes, full of every marvelous thing, the eternal God whose face is turned in all directions. The glory and amazing splendor of this mighty Being may be likened to the radiance shed by a thousand suns rising together into the heavens. The son of Pandu then beheld within the body of the God of gods the whole universe in all its vast variety. Overwhelmed with wonder, Dhananjaya (2), the possessor of wealth, with hair standing on end, bowed down his head before the Deity, and thus with joined palms (3) addressed him:

ARJUNA:

"I behold, O God of gods, within thy frame all beings and things of every kind; the Lord Brahma on his lotus throne, all the Rishis and the heavenly Serpents. (4) I see thee on all sides, of infinite forms, having many arms, stomachs, mouths, and eyes. But I can discover neither thy beginning, thy middle, nor thy end, O universal Lord, form of the universe. I see thee crowned with a diadem and armed with mace and chakra (5), a mass of splendor, darting light on all sides; difficult to behold, shining in every direction with light immeasurable, like the burning fire or glowing sun. Thou art the supreme inexhaustible Being, the end of effort, changeless, the Supreme Spirit of this universe, the never-failing guardian of eternal law: I esteem thee Purusha (6), I see thee without beginning middle, or end, of infinite power with arms innumerable, the sun and moon thy eyes, thy mouth a flaming fire, overmastering the whole universe with thy majesty. Space and heaven, and earth and every point around the three regions of the universe are filled with thee alone. The triple world is full of fear, O thou mighty Spirit, seeing this thy marvelous form of terror. Of the assemblage of the gods some I see fly to thee for refuge, while some in fear with joined hands sing forth thy praise; the hosts of the Maharshis and Siddhas, great sages and saints, hail thee, saying "svasti," (7) and glorify thee with most excellent hymns. The Rudras, Adityas, the Vasus, and all those beings -- the Sadhyas, Visvas, the Asvins, Maruts, and Ushmapas, the hosts of Gandharvas, Yakshas, and Siddhas (8) -- all stand gazing on thee and are amazed. All the worlds alike with me are terrified to behold thy wondrous form gigantic, O thou of mighty arms, with many mouths and eyes, with many arms, thighs and feet, with many stomachs and projecting tusks. For seeing thee thus touching the heavens, shining with such glory, with widely-opened mouths and bright expanded eyes, my inmost soul is troubled and I lose both firmness and tranquillity, O Vishnu. Beholding thy dreadful teeth and thy face like the burning of death, I can see neither heaven nor earth; I find no peace; have mercy, O Lord of gods, thou Spirit of the universe! The sons of Dhritarashtra with all these rulers of men, Bhishma, Drona and also Kama and our principal warriors, seem to be impetuously precipitating themselves into thy mouths terrible with tusks; some are seen caught between thy teeth, their heads ground down. As the rapid streams of full-flowing rivers roll on to meet the ocean, even so these heroes of the human race rush into thy flaming mouths. As troops of insects carried away by strong impulse find death in the fire, even so do these beings with swelling force pour into thy mouths for their own destruction. Thou involvest and swallowest all these creatures from every side, licking them in thy flaming lips; filling the universe with thy splendor, thy sharp beams burn, O Vishnu. Reverence be unto thee, O best of Gods! Be favorable! I seek to know thee, the Primeval One, for I know not thy work."

KRISHNA:

"I am Time matured, come hither for the destruction of these creatures; except thyself, not one of all these warriors here drawn up in serried ranks shall live. Wherefore, arise! seize fame! Defeat the foe and enjoy the fullgrown kingdom! They have been already slain by me; be thou only the immediate agent, O thou both-armed one. (9) Be not disturbed. Slay Drona, Bhishma, Jayadratha, Karna, and all the other heroes of the war who are really slain by me. Fight, thou wilt conquer all thine enemies."

SANJAYA:

When he of the resplendent diadem (10) heard these words from the mouth of Kesava (11), he saluted Krishna with joined palms and trembling with fear, addressed him in broken accents, and bowed down terrified before him.

ARJUNA:

"The universe, O Hrishikesa (12), is justly delighted with thy glory and is filled with zeal for thy service; the evil spirits are affrighted and flee on all sides, while all the hosts of saints bow down in adoration before thee. And wherefore should they not adore thee, O mighty Being, thou who art greater than Brahma, who art the first Maker? O eternal God of gods! O habitation of the universe! Thou art the one indivisible Being, and Non-Being, that which is supreme. Thou art the first of Gods, the most ancient Spirit; thou art the final supreme receptacle (13) of this universe; thou art the Knower and that which is to be known, and the supreme mansion; and by thee, O thou of infinite form, is this universe caused to emanate. Thou art Vayu, God of wind, Agni, God of fire, Yama, God of death, Varuna, God of waters; thou art the moon; Prajapati, the progenitor and grandfather, art thou. Hail! hail to thee! Hail to thee a thousand times repeated! Again and again hail to thee! Hail to thee! Hail to thee from before! Hail to thee from behind! Hail to thee on all sides, O thou All! Infinite is thy power and might; thou includest all things, therefore thou art all things!

"Having been ignorant of thy majesty, I took thee for a friend, and have called thee 'O Krishna, O son of Yadu, O friend,' and blinded by my affection and presumption, I have at times treated thee without respect in sport, in recreation, in repose, in thy chair, and at thy meals, in private and in public; all this I beseech thee, O inconceivable Being, to forgive.

"Thou art the father of all things animate and inanimate; thou art to be honored as above the guru himself, and worthy to be adored; there is none equal to thee, and how in the triple worlds could there be thy superior, O thou of unrivaled power? Therefore I bow down and with my body prostrate, I implore thee, O Lord, for mercy. Forgive, O Lord, as the friend forgives the friend, as the father pardons his son, as the lover the beloved. I am well pleased with having beheld what was never before seen, and yet my heart is overwhelmed with awe; have mercy then, O God; show me that other form, O thou who art the dwelling-place of the universe; I desire to see thee as before with thy diadem on thy head, thy hands armed with mace and chakra; assume again, O thou of a thousand arms and universal form, thy four-armed shape!" (14)

KRISHNA:

"Out of kindness to thee, O Arjuna, by my divine power I have shown thee my supreme form, the universe, resplendent, infinite, primeval, and which has never been beheld by any other than thee. Neither by studying the Vedas, nor by alms-giving, nor by sacrificial rites, nor by deeds, nor by the severest mortification of the flesh can I be seen in this form by any other than thee, O best of Kurus. Having beheld my form thus awful, be not disturbed nor let thy faculties be confounded, but with fears allayed and happiness of heart look upon this other form of mine again."

SANJAYA:

Vasudeva (15) having so spoken reassumed his natural form; and thus in milder shape the Great One presently assuaged the fears of the terrified Arjuna.

ARJUNA:

"Now that I see again thy placid human shape, O Janadana, who art prayed to by mortals, my mind is no more disturbed and I am self-possessed."

KRISHNA:

"Thou hast seen this form of mine which is difficult to be perceived and which even the gods arc always anxious to behold. But I am not to be seen, even as I have shown myself to thee, by study of the Vedas, nor by mortifications, nor alms-giving, nor sacrifices. I am to be approached and seen and known in truth by means of that devotion which has me alone as the object. He whose actions are for me alone, who esteemeth me the supreme goal, who is my servant only, without attachment to the results of action and free from enmity towards any creature, cometh to me, O son of Pandu."

Only the one that is bestowed the privilege will get to see the Arihant.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jul 2009 01:21

http://livefist.blogspot.com/ has the presentation about Arihant. It has the DRDO and navy logos and has the word "restricted" on it, some official presentation. Nothing specific, just the general details already known.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 29 Jul 2009 01:47

Top Article: Substandard Capabilities
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 830783.cms

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 29 Jul 2009 01:56

Link to the bbc video on INS Arihant. This is the only video of the event out so far to the best of my knowledge.

The Arihant can be seen in the background, not very clear though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y69gJPFC_ts

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 29 Jul 2009 01:59

sanjaychoudhry wrote:Top Article: Substandard Capabilities
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 830783.cms

The article seems more of a message sending indication to certain political section, it has a nice subtlety in it; other than that going by its face value repeated ICBM versus IRBM comparison seems quite erroneous.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Jul 2009 02:14

csharma wrote:Link to the bbc video on INS Arihant. This is the only video of the event out so far to the best of my knowledge.

The Arihant can be seen in the background, not very clear though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y69gJPFC_ts

The body of the sub can be seen continuously between 0:35 and 1:10. It seems to be the section where the hump gently curves back into the cylindrical section, and almost at the beginning of the conical aft section. The section on the right of the video indicates a more prominent hump than the left corner, where it seem much more cylindrical. Even so, it doesn't have anything like the sharp edges of the hatch section that the Jin class subs do.

The conning tower/sail would be to MMS's left, I think; the original PIB picture appears to show the start of the sail right behind MMS, and it was taken from a more frontal angle.

The piping on top looks like a temporary handrail, which is fine for now; it can easily be excised later. Contrary to suggestions that the anechoic tiles appear like badly welded metal, I think the surface is quite smooth. The reflectivity and lighting are not good, but even so, the surface looks quite well done to me.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 29 Jul 2009 02:27

More power to IN and we need it now. From Foreign Affairs Magazine.
***

To the Editor:

Robert Kaplan ("Center Stage for the Twenty-first Century," March/April 2009) correctly underscores the Indian Ocean's strategic importance. But in envisioning "dynamic great-power rivalry" between Beijing and New Delhi there, he is too pessimistic about the United States' ability to maintain influence, too optimistic about China's ability to exert influence rapidly, and too dismissive of India's inherent regional advantages.

Kaplan contends that the United States must skillfully manage an inevitable decline by leveraging the support of allies. But the U.S. military has successfully sustained its level of operations in the region while expanding its range of missions. Washington is working intently with its partners to support cooperative maritime activities globally, as expressed in the maritime strategy released in October 2007.

The United States is shaping itself into an indispensable maritime balancer by deploying the right number and right kind of naval forces and establishing task forces and maritime headquarters that bring diverse partners together. These activities efficiently act as a tipping weight in the Indian Ocean, allowing the United States' other forces to be used elsewhere.

Kaplan's "elegant decline" argument also gives more weight to the number of U.S. ships, submarines, and aircraft than is warranted. The current versatility and capabilities of U.S. naval platforms, coupled with their useful employment in specific scenarios, is a clearer measure of their effectiveness than numbers alone.

Kaplan is correct that the United States must strive to be "continually useful," and the U.S. Navy is doing so. Under U.S. leadership, the multinational naval coalition Combined Task Force 151 conducts counterpiracy operations in the Indian Ocean region, most recently rescuing a U.S. merchant captain taken hostage by pirates.

Moreover, the United States' systemic indispensability is being nurtured through two key initiatives. First, the United States has established regional "maritime operations centers" around the world, partnering with other countries to plan, coordinate, and execute a wide range of mutually beneficial naval actions. Second, the U.S. Coast Guard, in concert with the U.S. Navy, has closely collaborated with interested nations through the Maritime Domain Awareness project to study the global maritime factors that affect collective security, safety, trade, and environmental interests. U.S. energy and leadership are essential here. This is not decline but preeminence (without domination).

Taiwan's status, combined with other territorial and resource interests on China's maritime periphery, will leave China's navy primarily focused on Taiwan for the foreseeable future. Moreover, deploying a sustainable out-of-area expeditionary capability requires not only ships and ports but also extensive logistical support and high levels of training and experience. Ship steaming times to the Arabian Gulf from Chinese and Indian naval ports are 13 days and three days, respectively, making it comparatively easier for India to secure the sea-lanes there and respond to a crisis. India, which clearly enjoys a home-court advantage in the Indian Ocean, neither needs to solve the expeditionary problem nor possesses a strategic imperative similar to Taiwan that would bind its naval operations. No matter how much access to Indian Ocean ports China may gain, it cannot trump geography without a revolution in capabilities and strategic interests.

THOMAS CULORA
Chair, Warfare Analysis and Research Department, U.S. Naval War College

ANDREW ERICKSON
Associate Professor of Strategic Studies, China Maritime Studies Institute, U.S. Naval War College

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Jul 2009 02:28

Suraj,

@ about .36 you can see - just above his head - the curtain flutter. Then again @ .39 another - what appears to be - a flutter of the curtain to the very right corner. Whatever it is above his head is a cover.

Also, the picture you provided is from the very same spot - but has more light.

Is it just me or is the surface of the sub not very "smooth"? Right behind the PM there appears to be a whitish band.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jul 2009 03:07

In the background, the submarine appears to be covered with something like a plastic sheet or so. The white band too appears to be part of that. It doesn't look like bare steel to me.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 29 Jul 2009 03:08

Timesonline weighs in.

A colder ocean
India’s new nuclear submarine marks a growing military competition with China

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 731032.ece

Armed with torpedoes and ballistic missiles, the submarine is the first of five that will be powered by an 85-megawatt nuclear reactor and will patrol the Indian Ocean shipping lanes. Its launch makes India only the sixth country in the world to deploy nuclear submarines and is a signal of Delhi’s determination to play a greater global military role commensurate with its growing economic and political strength. But for all the historic animosity and renewed tensions on the subcontinent, Pakistan’s fears are misplaced. The presumed target of the formidable weapons Arihant will carry is not Pakistan but China.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 29 Jul 2009 03:12

In one of the TV programmes, K Subramanyam said that it is unlikely that Arihant would go to South China Sea. The reason is that it cannot use Malacca Straits because it will be detected and any other route is too long for the crew.

Hence Arihant is likely to be parked in the Indian Ocean. That's why it is extremely important to be able to take on China from the Indian Ocean region.

In two years when Arihant is fully tested, AgniIII SL should be ready otherwise it canot provide effective deterrence against China.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jul 2009 03:15

Unfortunately, there is no other way but getting around malacca straits. IN will have to be ready for any eventuality

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Jul 2009 03:38

RaviBg wrote:In the background, the submarine appears to be covered with something like a plastic sheet or so. The white band too appears to be part of that. It doesn't look like bare steel to me.

................. India's boomer: The launch of the Arihant

SUBMARINES can be detected by sonar, or sound ranging, and so not only has the Arihant’s propulsion system given a double shield, its outer hull is covered by thick rubber tiles studded with conical gaps that trap sound.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jul 2009 03:45

NR, I knew about that, but somehow the covering doesn't look like rubber blocks to me. Like I said, I felt it was more like a plastic sheet, smooth with some folds and reflecting light.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Jul 2009 03:47

Those are anechoic sonar absorbing tiles, not plastic wrapping. The reflectivity of the surface is not uniform, and the lighting angle isn't so good (probably a combination of natural and artificial light, with background shadows). In my eyes at least, the surface doesn't appear too undulating or crudely done. Those tiles don't all reflect light uniformly, as seen in this and this picture.

Also, as some folks suggested, there's a Navy person operating another camera there, so the whole event has been photographed and videographed, except that none of it is available for public release now, which is just as well.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 29 Jul 2009 06:38

Unfortunately, there is no other way but getting around Malacca Straits. IN will have to be ready for any eventuality

For all we know the IN may have already navigated those passages, and do you remember that exercise in the Soth China Sea some years ago? Expect China to smother Vietnam with even more love and kisses in the months to come.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Jul 2009 06:58

Shireen Mazari on the Arihant:

India’s Arihant — upping the psychological ante

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Shireen M Mazari

………………… Incidentally, those in Pakistan who have been ranting for years over the use of Islamic warrior names for our missiles seem absurdly mute in commenting on India’s aggressive usage of Hindu mythology warrior names not only for its missiles but now also for its nuclear-powered submarine. ……………

The News

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 29 Jul 2009 07:02

It is world class

INTERVIEW/DR P.K. IYENGAR, FORMER CHAIRMAN, ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION

By Syed Nazakat

Dr P.K. Iyengar is one of India’s brightest brains that worked behind the country’s ambitious nuclear projects. He played an important role in Pokhran I on May 18, 1974, and in the design and manufacturing of the INS Arihant. He worked at the Department of Atomic Energy for 40 years. In 1984, he was appointed director of the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai, and in 1990, chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission. Excerpts from a telephonic interview:

You must be proud that India’s own nuclear submarine is all set for trials.
It is a great moment for all of us who worked on the project.

Are you optimistic about the trials?
We [at Indira Gandhi Centre For Atomic Research] tested the nuclear reactor two years ago at Kalpakkam and according to my knowledge, it passed the test satisfactorily.

The Advanced Technology Vessel project began in the 1970s. What took so long for its completion?
There are several reasons. After 1974, India developed cold feet in the face of international pressure and put its weapons programme on hold. Since then, government operated the project on the sidelines. Then there were technical glitches. I must also tell you that it was a complex project.

Who all have cooperated in the design?
It is a joint project of the DRDO, the Navy and the Atomic Energy Commission. There are private Indian companies involved in the manufacturing of the submarine.

How fast is the submarine underwater?
Submarines are not needed for speed. They are needed for the fighting. The strength of the submarine is its endurance; how long it can remain under water and how capable it is to carry missiles. Its endurance is world class, better than many submarines in the world.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 29 Jul 2009 07:06

Deep rising

DEFENCE

The nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant will put India in a different league

By Syed Nazakat

A complex at Visakhapatnam’s Naval Dockyard is home to one of the newest and potentially the most lethal weapons in the Navy’s arsenal. If everything goes according to plan, the floodgates of the dockyard will be opened on July 26 for the INS Arihant, a homemade nuclear-powered submarine designed to launch nuclear-armed ballistic missiles, and India will become the sixth country in the world to possess a nuclear sub. Only the US, Russia, Britain, China and France have produced such vessels.
“This is a historic and big step forward,” said Dr P.K. Iyengar, former chairman, Atomic Energy Commi-ssion, who was involved in the early stages of the Advanced Technology Vehicle project to develop the INS Arihant. “Nuclear submarines are far better than the conventional diesel-electric submarines which spend most of their time on the surface,” he said. According to him, the new submarine’s engine needs no air and can operate at full power underwater.

The INS Arihant is built by the scientists of the Navy, the Defence Research and Development Organi-sation (DRDO) and the Department of Atomic Energy, and it took more than three decades and $2.9 billion to complete the project. The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged. The highly enriched uranium fuel for the reactor was supplied by the Rare Materials Project, Mysore, and the hull of the vessel was built by Larsen & Toubro at its Hazira dockyard facility in Gujarat. The submarine will undergo trials for two years before its induction into the Navy.
The INS Arihant is expected to carry the short-range ballistic missile Sagarika and fulfil New Delhi’s goal of possessing the nuclear triad: air-, land-, and sea-based nuclear weapon systems.

Nuclear submarines are very effective in counter attacks, and are quiet thanks to the special propellers and sound-insulated engines. “It is a super and surprise weapon,” said a Naval officer. “It is hard to track down nuclear submarines.” Though India had operated a submarine fleet, it was the acquisition of INS Chakra, a Soviet-made Charlie class nuclear-powered submarine, on lease in 1988 that put Indian naval programmes into the limelight. It was interpreted as a major change in India’s capabilities and evidence of its intention to develop naval superiority in the Indian ocean.
Though the Navy is yet to divulge any details, sources at the DRDO said that the Arihant was faster than many US submarines when submerged and the top-speed was in the range of 40 knots. “Facing a nuclear submarine is a nightmare; it has unlimited endurance and mobility and there’s no place for a surface ship to hide,” said Debi Mohanty, naval analyst at the Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi. “It will put the Indian Navy in a different league.”

Submarines surface for two purposes—to recharge batteries and to send and receive messages. Diesel submarines surface at least once a day to recharge batteries and as often as they want to send and receive messages. The Arihant can remain submerged more than 100 days, as nuclear submarines do not have to recharge batteries. Does it have to surface to send and receive messages? “No,” said a Naval officer. “The Arihant can remain underwater and receive and send communications,” thanks to the very low frequency (VLF) technology developed by Indian scientists 15 years ago. Only five countries in the world have this technology.
The Arihant will give India a “colossal advantage” over its neighbours, said a DRDO scientist. “You need submarine-based arsenals to retain a second strike capability, since all land-based arsenals can be detected through satellite surveillance,” said Uday Bhaskar, director of the Delhi-based National Maritime Foundation and a military analyst. “If they’ve been detected, you have to assume that they can be targeted.”

Bhaskar said New Delhi was seeking to attain a sea-denial capability in the Indian Ocean. In its vision document, Maritime Doctrine, the Navy also underlines the massive strides taken by China, the only Asian country with submarine-launched ballistic missiles, to strengthen its navy. “The mission of the armed forces is not only to be prepared to fight wars,” said Bhaskar, “but also to deter or prevent their outbreak.” Interestingly, the Navy considers Pakistan navy a mere “irritant”. Said a Naval officer, “The mission is to watch China.”

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2009 07:23

southern IOR and south pacific are the best open areas for SSBNs to hide in. the south china sea area and
yellow sea except for certain trench areas is riddled with thousands of islands ranging from big and small
like sumatra to unnamed shoals. its also heavy in surface traffic. a SSN steaming from India can easily
reach the south china sea and avoid malacca strait. it can hide amongst the 17000 indonesia islands and
shallow seas and dart out for raids towards chinese mainlands/hainan island.

SSBNs can lay around in IO armed with SLBM and a few self defence torpedoes/ASM.
SSN and AIP subs can enter the south china sea through sunda and lombok straits and attack the thick shipping
lanes to PRC and land targets with SLCMs like nirbhay. with 12xSLCM + 3M-14-mki (the size of 6000t suggests
atleast 30 weapons in torpedo room), it will carry a formidable land attack punch in SSGN role.

to get a smoky feel for that region one can read 'South by Java head'

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Jul 2009 07:24

A Sharma wrote:Deep rising

DEFENCE

The nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant will put India in a different league

By Syed Nazakat

{Snipped} “The Arihant can remain underwater and receive and send communications,” thanks to the very low frequency (VLF) technology developed by Indian scientists 15 years ago. Only five countries in the world have this technology. {Snipped}

A year old article in the Hindu on INS Kattabomman which houses India’s VLF transmission station:

Thursday, Jul 03, 2008

Vice Admiral to visit INS Kattabomman

Staff Reporter

He will be apprised of operational preparedness of the base

TIRUNELVELI: Flag Officer Commanding-In-Chief, Eastern Naval Command, Vice Admiral Nirmal Kumar Verma will visit INS Kattabomman on Thursday.

INS Kattabomman, located at Vijayanarayanam, about 40 km from here on the Nanguneri–Thisaiyanvilai highway, houses VLF (Very Low Frequency) station and communications network that allows the Indian Navy to communicate with its submarines at long ranges. …………................

The Hindu

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jul 2009 07:29

its also time to put in a miles long ELF communication setup in western ghats or coorg to mimic those used by
Russia and USA (wisconsin). ELF has greater penetration depth underwater compared to VLF and permits greater
flexibility for SSBN to hide under appropriate salinity and temp layers. once it receives the "come up" code via ELF/VLF (onree few characters/min rate) it would carefully scan the surface and come up briefly to get orders
via satellite.

it is time to kick ass.

atma · Post by **atma** » 29 Jul 2009 08:00

Shireen Mazari on the Arihant:

Quote:
India’s Arihant — upping the psychological ante

Wednesday, July 29, 2009
By Shireen M Mazari

………………… Incidentally, those in Pakistan who have been ranting for years over the use of Islamic warrior names for our missiles seem absurdly mute in commenting on India’s aggressive usage of Hindu mythology warrior names not only for its missiles but now also for its nuclear-powered submarine. ……………

The News

My response to Mazari: e pata se bheza
Your article and arguments therein sound very moronic indeed. Your arguments about the IOR region, and indeed of Pakistan's capabilities are spurious. Pakistan's Agosta's are not designed or expected to be modified to be SSBN's. Your arguments of Nuclear submarines and their capacities sound even more ludicrious. Finally you go on a tangent about Balochistan which has little to do with the launch of the Arihant. Arihant was not a hindu mythological warrior. Please do some research before deluding your readers in a well read

online news magazine

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2009 08:43

A Sharma wrote:Deep rising

The INS Arihant is built by the scientists of the Navy, the Defence Research and Development Organi-sation (DRDO) and the Department of Atomic Energy, and it took more than three decades and $2.9 billion to complete the project. The submarine uses a pressurised water reactor, is 124 metres long and is said to have a 9,400 tonne displacement when submerged. The highly enriched uranium fuel for the reactor was supplied by the Rare Materials Project, Mysore, and the hull of the vessel was built by Larsen & Toubro at its Hazira dockyard facility in Gujarat. The submarine will undergo trials for two years before its induction into the Navy.

Er - I can't resist this folks - but to me it seems clear that the entire submarine has been built using "Rare Materials". The length of the sub varies from 100 to 124 meters and its displacement varies from 5000 to 9400 tons. India is in the unique category of only one nation on earth to have done this.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2009 08:51

Singha wrote:its also time to put in a miles long ELF communication setup in western ghats or coorg to mimic those used by
Russia and USA (wisconsin). ELF has greater penetration depth underwater compared to VLF and permits greater
flexibility for SSBN to hide under appropriate salinity and temp layers. once it receives the "come up" code via ELF/VLF (onree few characters/min rate) it would carefully scan the surface and come up briefly to get orders
via satellite.

it is time to kick ass.

I was wondering its more than 15 years , we have been operating VLF facility. So what is it that prevents us building ELF capability , is it the technology far more challenging to build ELF system and it evades us , or is it that we do not need it at all.

After all out of the 5 countries that operate Nuclear Submarine , only two have such facility and they use it as for wake/warning up signal when the sub is at great depths , so that they can either come up to a point where they receive VLF communication or just release the communication antenna from the same depth to receive VLF messages

May be we do not need ELF ?

AshokS · Post by **AshokS** » 29 Jul 2009 08:55

Shiv - Of course its a rare material, haven't you heard of sponge iron? what happens when you put a sponge in the sink, it expands... thus our new sub is built by SDRE sponge iron tech...as soon as they flooded the berth the submarine started to expand... it also helps clean the water at same time like a sponge.... dual use technology now mastered by SDRE onlee... bhy you not believing?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 29 Jul 2009 08:57

Nightwatch
http://nightwatch.afcea.org/NightWatch_20090727.htm

Note: This is an example of a missed strategic opportunity. Few are so clear. The US had a chance to influence, if not assist, Indian naval SSBN development to help India build better submarines and weapons. All that was required was a mature foreign policy and a slightly more enlightened insight into future time. Russia has little interest in the Indian Ocean except to sell weapons to riparian states that bother the US.

The Indian Navy would be a natural maritime partner of the US in this century, in the NightWatch view, but for short sighted policies. Any US policy to influence or shape China’s rise as a great power later this century must include India. The US Navy seems to understand this, to its credit. Others are stuck in the 1960’s South Asia balance of power mindset
....
The Paks have it right: the Indian submarine is a destabilizing development, or more accurately, a restabilizing development. The notion of an India-Pakistan military balance is as outmoded as black-and-white television. In South Asia, there is only a military imbalance that favors India.

Pakistan’s only option for survival during a military crisis is its nuclear deterrent and Indian restraint. These conditions make every South Asian military confrontation potentially a nuclear war.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 29 Jul 2009 08:58

http://www.informationdissemination.net/

There are a few noteworthy submarine stories over the past week, but none are bigger than the launch of India's Advanced Technology Vessel INS Arihant.
...
This beings India closer to becoming the first nation in decades to develop a nuclear triad, and the first nation to do so in the Indian Ocean area. While this development does not shift any balance of power in the region, it certainly gives both Pakistan and China something to think about. There is something else though, it will also give India a case for becoming a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a discussion the current permanent five members are not looking forward to.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Jul 2009 09:00

Austin,

The weaknesses of ELF are clearly detailed in the wikipedia article on it. I know it isn't authoritative but it gives a primer on why VLF still trumps ELF in most modes. There is also a photo (dated) on the Wisconsin site. Thanks.

Anant

ELF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Jul 2009 09:08

Anechoic Tiles.

Someone, a while ago, said the Airhant had undulating surfaces (i.e. not smooth) due to the tile configuration. I am posting some other sub tile photos. It clearly illustrates that smoothness is not an inherent quality--function is. See below.

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/KeyWest ... rlarge.jpg
http://www.steelnavy.com/images/KeyWest ... tfwd02.jpg
http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/0101239.jpg (Our own navy)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... umph_1.jpg
http://www.tankopoly.com/his/pic/typh1.jpg (has that same Arihant grey look)
http://cnair.top81.cn/sub/324.jpg (chinese large version of tiles)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Jul 2009 09:09

Anant wrote:Austin,

The weaknesses of ELF are clearly detailed in the wikipedia article on it. I know it isn't authoritative but it gives a primer on why VLF still trumps ELF in most modes. There is also a photo (dated) on the Wisconsin site. Thanks.

http://enterprise.spawar.navy.mil/Uploa ... lf2003.pdf

In the mid-1980s, the Wisconsin Test
Facility was upgraded and re-designated
as the Wisconsin Transmitter Facility,
and construction of a second transmitter
facility 148 miles away in Republic,
Michigan was proposed. In 1985, the
Clam Lake site attained an initial
operating capability. In the Fall of 1989,
when the Michigan site became fully
operational, the Wisconsin site was
renamed the Naval Radio Transmitter
Facility Clam Lake. The entire ELF
communications system became fully
operational October 1, 1989 when the
two transmitter sites began synchronized
transmitting of an ELF broadcast to the
submarine fleet 24-hours a day, 7-days a
week.

The Clam Lake ELF radio station broadcasts messages to
the fleet as required by the Navy Submarine Broadcast
Control Authority in Norfolk, Virginia or Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. For the U.S. submarine fleet to perform its mission, it
must remain silent and be undetectable. The Navy’s ELF communications system is the only operational
communications system that can penetrate seawater to great depths and is virtually jam proof from both natural and
man-made interference. It is a critical part of America’s national security in that it allows the submarine fleet to remain
at depth and speed and maintain its stealth while remaining in communication with the national command authority.
This requirement was confirmed in 1984 when Department of the Navy Secretary John Lehman testified “In my
judgment, the ELF system is essential to the national defense. The survivability of the Trident and Poseidon
submarines depends on their ability to remain undetected. They must also maintain continuous communication with
the President and Secretary of Defense.”

http://coldwar-c4i.net/ELF/index.html
http://coldwar-c4i.net/index.html

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Jul 2009 09:13

Thanks for the link Acharya. Any idea how much bandwidth is actually transmitted. In other words, is it more than go no go for launch or more detailed messages? I'll have to make a day trip to Wisconsin sometime and check out where this place is.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Jul 2009 09:21

Anant wrote:Thanks for the link Acharya. Any idea how much bandwidth is actually transmitted. In other words, is it more than go no go for launch or more detailed messages? I'll have to make a day trip to Wisconsin sometime and check out where this place is.

It says few bytes per minute. It is slow. SO they may use code letters to signal - surface, receive, transmit, position etc.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 29 Jul 2009 09:23

Another article on ELF, this time, the Russians ZEVS. It discusses the best place (geologically) to put up an ELF facility and also has an actual signal description along with the bandwidth and other considerations in real operation. Check it out.

http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm