Indian Army: News & Discussion

[rohitvats]

@rohoitvats
I remember reading something in the ASC College Journal about the increasing logistical strain on the divisional ASC Battalions with respect to an ever increasing amount of tonnage hauled each year especially in the northern areas(advance winter stocking) and for the corps divisions. I guess with the increasing stress on C4ISR assets and other tech toys. What you have to carry to war is also increasing.

Sirji, the Tatra is used primarily as Tank/Armored Vehicle Transporter in the Indian Army. It is also used by the engineers for various functions. IIRC, the upgraded M-46 also use Tatra as Gun Tractors and not the earlier ones (Graz?). ASC and Civil GT use Stallions as the main mover of troops and goods nowadays (and the earlier TATA 4 tonners). Yes, there are 10 ton trucks with some ASC Battalions - I don't remember the name for such battalions. But using Tatra for moving goods and supplies is something I've not hear of. A new development, maybe.

[Singha]

the new rocket and missile regiments also need plenty of reload vehicles I expect.

[rohitvats]

the new rocket and missile regiments also need plenty of reload vehicles I expect.

I did factor those into account plus new armored+mechanized raisings....but 800 is a very large number.

[vaibhav.n]

Looks like the Army too is looking at the Hovercrafts ....probably for the Sir Creek area.though 44 units looks to high a number just for deployment in this area alone...

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20ACV.pdf

[vaibhav.n]

Sirji, the Tatra is used primarily as Tank/Armored Vehicle Transporter in the Indian Army. It is also used by the engineers for various functions. IIRC, the upgraded M-46 also use Tatra as Gun Tractors and not the earlier ones (Graz?). ASC and Civil GT use Stallions as the main mover of troops and goods nowadays (and the earlier TATA 4 tonners). Yes, there are 10 ton trucks with some ASC Battalions - I don't remember the name for such battalions. But using Tatra for moving goods and supplies is something I've not hear of. A new development, maybe.

Beml has lighter tatra variants too used in the GS role used alongside ALS series (4x4 and 6x6) like the one below.
http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... %20HMV.pdf

The order could also include the various Tatra trailers in the 50Tons and 65Tons category(Arjun Carriers!! )

[rohitvats]

Beml has lighter tatra variants too used in the GS role used alongside ALS series (4x4 and 6x6) like the one below.
http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Prod ... %20HMV.pdf

The order could also include the various Tatra trailers in the 50Tons and 65Tons category(Arjun Carriers!! )

Thanks for the PDF. I was not at all aware of such a variant under TATRA name... ...never saw one. You do learn something new everyday on BRF.

Yup, the order could be for mix bag of various models.

[d_berwal]

@rohoitvats
I remember reading something in the ASC College Journal about the increasing logistical strain on the divisional ASC Battalions with respect to an ever increasing amount of tonnage hauled each year especially in the northern areas(advance winter stocking) and for the corps divisions. I guess with the increasing stress on C4ISR assets and other tech toys. What you have to carry to war is also increasing.

Sirji, the Tatra is used primarily as Tank/Armored Vehicle Transporter in the Indian Army. It is also used by the engineers for various functions. IIRC, the upgraded M-46 also use Tatra as Gun Tractors and not the earlier ones (Graz?). ASC and Civil GT use Stallions as the main mover of troops and goods nowadays (and the earlier TATA 4 tonners). Yes, there are 10 ton trucks with some ASC Battalions - I don't remember the name for such battalions. But using Tatra for moving goods and supplies is something I've not hear of. A new development, maybe.

Most of the Armour Unit have 4x4 Tatra @ 10 per unit (approx)

[A Sharma]

BEML BAGS RS. 632 CRORES ORDER FOR SUPPLY OF 788 BEML TATRA VEHILCES TO INDIAN ARMY

This huge order comprises supply of BEML Tatra Variants of 498 Nos. of 8x8, 278 Nos. of 6x6 (with Winch) and 12 Nos. of 6x6 (without Winch) to Indian Army.

BEML TATRA 8x8 are the multi-terrain vehicles used for tank transportation as well as personnel. These equipment are provided with a winch for self recovery and loading of dead tanks on to the trailer. Similarly BEML TATRA 6x6 are high mobility vehicles used for GS role in Indian Army. These vehicles have a payload capacity of 8000 KGs and useful for towing trailers on public roads upto 65,000 KGs and on terrain conditions trailer weighing upto 16,000 KGs. These vehicles also are provided with winch for self recovery and recovery of other vehicles.

[sum]

Army officer among 26 killed in separate road mishaps in J&K

In an early morning mishap in Rajouri district, a Rashtriya Rifles Major was killed and three others, including a Colonel, were injured when their vehicle collided head on with a tipper at Sunderbani about 80-kms from here, they said.

The deceased has been identified as Major Vasant Gaurav and the injured, including Colonel L K Chiter, Signalman V K Sharma and sepoy Antony Swamy were admitted in the ICU of Command hospital.

Five armymen were killed and 6 others were injured when an army vehicle of 43 Rastriya Rifles travelling towards Surankote belt of Poonch district, skidded off the road and fell down into a 150-feet deep gorge near Duggar Gala in Chingus area about 165-kms from here in Rajouri district at around 8.30 am today.The deceased jawans have been identified as Parinder Kumar Sharma, S K Singh, Dinesh Singh, B Venakatroa and Rakesh Gulia.
Rescue teams have admitted the injured to the hospital.The army has ordered a court of inquiry to ascertain the exact cause of the accidents, PRO Defence Col Biplab Nath said.

RIP to all the men...

[vic]

Looks like the Army too is looking at the Hovercrafts ....probably for the Sir Creek area.though 44 units looks to high a number just for deployment in this area alone...

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20ACV.pdf

Why is their requirement of bath in the hovercraft when it has endurance of around 8 hours?

[Singha]

it might have to pick up supplies/diesel from austere posts and then sortie again. or refuel in the water from a supply vessel and patrol longer.

[atreya]

Looks like the Army too is looking at the Hovercrafts ....probably for the Sir Creek area.though 44 units looks to high a number just for deployment in this area alone...

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20ACV.pdf

Why is their requirement of bath in the hovercraft when it has endurance of around 8 hours?

I remember reading somewhere that the BSF initiative to use hovercrafts on Sir Creek fell flat, because they couldn't be used on the marshy ground. Wonder where these ACVs will be deployed.

[rohitvats]

I don't know whether these videos of NAG ATGM have been seen and discussed before. X-Posting from Armor Thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWJPi7K1Fc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhSHXjo ... re=related

[VinodTK]

75 army bullets stolen from express train

Eight army jawans, who were taking these bullets to Pune for testing, found that they had gone missing from the luggage compartment. The Kurla government railway police (GRP) registered a case of theft against the unidentified accused late on Saturday.

[rohitvats]

From Orbat.com:

Mandeep says the Pakistan Army's paramount concern at this time is not anti-Taliban operations, but on extracting the maximum aid from the US so Pakistan can build the capability to neutralize India's Cold Start. Mandeep says Pakistan has suspended plans to create a IV Corps Reserve (an armored division) to focus on another project, the creation of a new Army Reserve South (1 armored and 1 mechanized division). at that point II Corps will become Army Reserve Center and at some later point the IV Corps Reserve can be raised, completing Pakistani deployments.

We asked what India was doing to counter all these new Pakistan armored divisions - three since 1999 and two more planned. Mandeep said India is not doing anything besides the marginal incremental increases in armor we've already discussed several times. India believes its Cold Start strategy is working in that Pakistan is badly rattled as evidenced by the new raisings. Aside from building up against China, India is preparing the tools needed to neutralize Pakistan's strategic resources at the start of war. Its long-term plan is to spend Pakistan into the ground.

[nelson]

look what the IA is being reduced to. they must also be training to make heavy dossiers. in the truest traditions of the present dispensation in power.
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 437463.ece

[rohiths]

look what the IA is being reduced to. they must also be training to make heavy dossiers. in the truest traditions of the present dispensation in power.
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 437463.ece

Chindu has forgotten to add that 1 Pig has met 72 in the firefight

[Craig Alpert]

Army chief warns against govt-to-govt deals with US

NEW DELHI: For the first time since India began big-ticket defence purchases from the US through government-to-government route, a senior member of the security establishment has red-flagged them, calling attention to the serious pitfalls of it.

In an unusual reflection of Army's frustration with its past FMS (foreign military sales) purchases from the US, Army chief General V K Singh has written to defence minister A K Antony, cautioning the government about the troubles with FMS.

Over the past few years, the Indian defence establishment has been using the FMS programme of the US government to carry out major defence acquisitions.

In these non-tender purchases, the US government procures the equipment on behalf of the Indian government from its military companies, and takes a commission for the services rendered through Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA).

The purchase of AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars for the Army in 2002 was the first major deal that India did with the US under FMS in several decades. Ever since, India has been buying several major defence systems regularly, and the total contract value of US systems bought under the FMS deal runs into several billion dollars.

The Army chief's letter of caution comes at a time when the two sides are in the final stages of finalizing two major FMS purchases — one for the Army and the other for the IAF. The Army is proposing to buy 145 ultra light howitzers worth about $647 million, mostly for deployment along the China borderwonder if the commie lobby had something to do with this? maybe we should call it the GHOST OF BOFORS!, while the IAF is planning to buy 10 C-17 transport aircraft at a cost of over $2.2 billion.

Singed by the troubles with past FMS contracts, the Army top brass is now discussing the possibility of hiring corporate lawyers well versed in international negotiations and contracts to come on board for scrutinizing the upcoming contract for howitzers, authoritative sources said. These lawyers would ensure that the past troubles are kept away, source said.Wonder what PAST TROUBLES are they referring to? would sure like to know how the US duped Indian Armed forces, better to read the fine prints!!!!

Gen Singh is believed to have pointed out to Antony Army's trouble with maintenance of a dozen weapon-locating radars bought from the US firm Raytheon. At times, up to two-thirds of the radars have been in want of maintenance, Army sources said.

Gen Singh's letter to Antony is an unusual step, and was "forced by the troubles we have with maintenance of the radar systems", an Army source said. hmmm Doesn't the C-17 and 130J come with a 5 year or a lifetime Maintenance plan with the initial purchase??

India has been using the non-tender, FMS route to buy big-ticket defence items from the US since 2002, when the radars became the first items to be bought under the scheme in recent memory. Over the past eight years, the military has carried out a host of acquisitions through the route. Among them were the $2.21 billion purchase of eight Boeing P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft, $962 million deal for six C-130J Hercules transport aircraft for IAF and $88 million for USS Trenton and accompanying helicopters for the Navy.

The IAF is currently in the final stages of negotiations for purchase of $2.2 billion worth 10 C-17 aircraft and the Army is finalizing the purchase of howitzers.

[putnanja]

Indian soldier killed as UN withdraws Congo mission

[karan_mc]

May be he is taking about spares , Americans can screw us in spares ,like most of the Bofors in India have become display models

[uddu]

Gen Singh is believed to have pointed out to Antony Army's trouble with maintenance of a dozen weapon-locating radars bought from the US firm Raytheon. At times, up to two-thirds of the radars have been in want of maintenance, Army sources said.

It was the Army that insisted on the U.S radars even the home made DRDO radars were performing better. Let's hope that such U.S systems will be replaced with the Indian ones so that we don't provide Rupees to U.S to indirectly arm Pakistan with WLR's and Artillery.

[karan_mc]

we already have PESA radar based WLR , and Development of AESA WLR is already under way

[Carl_T]

Army chief warns against govt-to-govt deals with US

NEW DELHI: For the first time since India began big-ticket defence purchases from the US through government-to-government route, a senior member of the security establishment has red-flagged them, calling attention to the serious pitfalls of it.

In an unusual reflection of Army's frustration with its past FMS (foreign military sales) purchases from the US, Army chief General V K Singh has written to defence minister A K Antony, cautioning the government about the troubles with FMS.

Over the past few years, the Indian defence establishment has been using the FMS programme of the US government to carry out major defence acquisitions.

In these non-tender purchases, the US government procures the equipment on behalf of the Indian government from its military companies, and takes a commission for the services rendered through Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA).

Ha! This COAS was the one trained in the US too, thank goodness he is taking a stance against FMS buys.

[JimmyJ]

Ha! This COAS was the one trained in the US too, thank goodness he is taking a stance against FMS buys.

I doubt whether it is a stance against FMS, but reading the para the Chief clearly mentions the lack of expert legal service while signing international defense deals

[shukla]

Singed by the troubles with past FMS contracts, the Army top brass is now discussing the possibility of hiring corporate lawyers well versed in international negotiations and contracts to come on board for scrutinizing the upcoming contract for howitzers, authoritative sources said. These lawyers would ensure that the past troubles are kept away, source said.

I am just appalled that it is only NOW that they are "CONSIDERING" having lawyers scrutinizing contracts... One would have thought this was normal practice. Better late than never..

[Rahul M]

it's not as if they don't have legal experts scrutinising documents. as of now they have in-houseexperts from MOD who do the job, clearly that hasn't worked as well. I'm not sure but I don't think any other govt uses corporate experts for this job.

[shukla]

Indian army wants INSAS series of rifles replaced

Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles. "There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the Defence Ministry?s ?Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap? document.

In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier. Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers.

[shukla]

Indian Army to Buy Laser Range Finders

The Indian Army has decided to procure Electronic Theodolites with Laser Range Finder (LRF) for Field Branch Artillery units and the Request for Information (RFI) has been released.The Electronic Theodolites with LRF will assist the survey process of the gun units of the Indian Army. The last date to submit the details is 15th June 2010.

The RFI is proposed to identify the potential vendors who can offer details of the Electronic Theodolites with LRF along with its cost per unit.

The main specifications that need to be furnished by the vendors includes the overall dimensions and weight of the Electronic Theodolites with LRF including all accessories, the maximum and minimum range of Laser Range Finder including accuracy and range display capability, details of the display unit and the kind of user interface and display facilities provided for data and results.

The RFI also seeks to know the details of the North Finding Module which should include accuracy, resolution, field of view and magnification. The RFI enquires into the system’s capabilities for angular measurements in both degree and mils as well as angular measurements in both clockwise and anti-clockwise directions. The vendors must also provide details of software support and the capacity of the internal memory to store data. Besides, the details of the power pack and its spare must be included.

[NRao]

Army denies cautioning Antony on deals with US

[putnanja]

With new Army Chief, Commanders get more say

Transparency and accountability in hardware acquisition, objectivity and all-round perspective in senior officers’ promotion boards and larger say for the Army Commanders is the new mantra for the Army Headquarters after the top brass met at the five-day Commanders’ conference last week.
...
...
In fact, with General Singh taking over as Army Chief, the following changes were evident during the Army Commanders’ conference:

For the first time, no prepared merit list for senior officers, Brigadiers to Major Generals and Major Generals above, due for promotion was shown to Army Commanders for the value judgment exercise. Instead the top commanders were only given the data sheets and past records of the officers in line for promotion so that they form their own views and not get influenced by the merit list.

Tedious quantification procedures that were prepared by the military secretariat last year in divergence from the laid down procedures by former Deputy Chief Lt General Sushil Gupta have been done away with. These divergences were objected to by at least two Army Commanders last year but they were overruled by a voice vote. A new study is underway to lay down simple and transparent quantification procedures for officers’ promotions.

Rather than blaming the Defence Ministry for delay in hardware acquisition, the headquarters will now appoint a nodal officer for each proposed acquisition, who will act as the liaison between the Weapons Directorate and the Deputy Chief in charge of capital purchases. This officer will be held accountable if some discrepancies, like those detected in general staff qualitative requirements for artillery guns and BM-21 GRAD rocket systems carrying vehicles, are detected at a later stage.

Proposal to allow recruitment of Army officers in the NDA on a seven-year contract and allow even those who are selected by the Staff Selection Board for Short Service Commission but do not make it to the final cut to join the force in a bid to encourage more youth to join the military.

[ramana]

Great job Gen Singh.
You are doing great stuff to promote openness and ensure on-track procurement. Errors in paperwork is a bug bear in organizations.

[ASPuar]

Errors in paperwork are a major-er bugbear in the Army.

In fact, the downfall of the Army in pay commission after pay commission, is less the work of devious bureaucrats, and more the work of bumbling by the pay commission cell of the ARMY ITSELF!

Even in this pay commission, LtCols, who should have got Pay Band 4, Grade Pay 8700 automatically, were left out because the Army hadnt the sense to put this case forward, and ITSELF left them out. After that, when they realised what had happened, there was a hue and cry. Other parties took advantage of the confusion, and ensured that LtCols were left out for good. Would never have happened, if the Army itself had not bungled.

[shukla]

Army needs to restructure training to meet battlefield challenges, says Army Chief

Delivering the Keynote Address during the two-day seminar conducted by the India Army on "Review of Training", under the aegis of Army Training Command at the IDSA Seminar Hall, New Delhi, General Singh highlighted the requirement for the Indian Army to remain relevant in the changing security environment and its consequent impact on the war fighting methods.


He emphasized that the best doctrines, strategy, tactics and equipment cannot be a substitute to good training. "Modern infrastructure, Joint Training, Leadership Training and means of external evaluation will ensure that the Indian Army remains in a high state of readiness, to meet the Operational Challenges, across the entire spectrum," said General Singh.

The Army Chief emphasized on the need of working out well established datum points, to assist in making an unbiased assessment of training at all levels. He also highlighted the need for out sourcing in order to adopt civil - industry methodologies, as applicable in the environment, to attain maximum advantage.

[abhishek_sharma]

Military tribunal slams Kargil war leadership

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/27/stories ... 911200.htm

[ramana]

Next Gen Singh should have the IDSA taken over as an inter-service institute run by CIDS office.

[ASPuar]

DRDO's VK Saraswat seems to have launched a bomb at the armed forces in open public, in front of the PM and Defence Minister.

Seems the armed forces chiefs are livid, and making their displeasure known to the cabinet.

[anirban_aim]

Military tribunal slams Kargil war leadership

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/27/stories ... 911200.htm

The order is pretty damning. Brass will have to do a lot of explaining. Well its not unknown that there is very little love lost Lt Gen KP but admitting mistakes is not going to be easy.

Old festering issue. I'm intrested to see how it unfolds. I'm even more intrested to see how Gen VKS reacts to this.

[Singha]

to be fair Saraswat has a lot of ammo in the continueing foot dragging, denial of tot, cost escalations, delays and problems that our foreign acquisitons have had lately - stretching upto t90 and scorpene.

but he should have targeted the IA in particular

[atreya]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/Can ... 48877.aspx

This calls for a diplomatic showdown. Ironically, IB controls the Bureau of Immigration. Where is the Canadian High Commissioner who said they "have lots of respect for the Indian military"? Canadians will suffer now, it seems!!

[Surya]

DRDO's VK Saraswat seems to have launched a bomb at the armed forces in open public, in front of the PM and Defence Minister.

Seems the armed forces chiefs are livid, and making their displeasure known to the cabinet.

Who cares whether they are livid? Especially the army

Let them rebut him but as Singha says - they have not even a fig leaf to cover themselves in recent years