Indian Army: News & Discussion

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 04 Apr 2010 04:53

^^^^
It was posted a while ago: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 50#p822150 but there wasnt much of a discussion around it.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 04 Apr 2010 07:28

..http://epaper.dailypioneer.com/THEPIONE ... 01_007.jpg[/img]

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Apr 2010 14:05

Gaur saab Thankyou so much for answering my question.

The reason I got shocked was that the pics I had seen of M777 Lightweight Howitzer (in Firing Mode) showed it has quite a Size/Volume and also it Weighs in at 3.75 Tonnes. Plus I had not seen any pics of M777 being transported (somehow or the other) by Horseys or Mules . I was Visualizing how the Hell would it Fit (With the Howitzer being in One Piece) on a Horsey's back or even Two's , & is a Horsey even able to carry such huge weights on its back to begin with & on top of that to take it Up Mountains & traverse huge distances. And the newsreport talked of Horseys not Mules.

When i expressed my shock, the following information did not come to my mind about the Capability of Artillery Pieces to be broken down into smaller loads for transport

Mountain Gun - Wikipedia
Mountain guns are artillery pieces designed for use in Mountain warfare and areas where usual wheeled transport is not possible. They are similar to infantry support guns, and are generally capable of being broken down into smaller loads for transport (by horse, human, mule, tractor, and/or truck).

Due to their ability to be broken down into smaller "packages", they are sometimes called pack guns or pack howitzers.

The modern breechloading mountain guns with recoil control and able to be easily broken down and reassembled into highly efficient units.

Mountain guns are largely outdated, their role being filled by mortars and wire-guided missiles, and Field Guns can now be Transported Fully Assembled by Helicopters.

• RVC is the Initialism for what

• How much Payload can a Mountain Artillery Mule carry

• Will the Different Variants of Mi-17 Helicopter be able to transport M777 Lightweight Howitzer as an UnderSlung Load to mountain positions with the Howitzer weighing in at 3.75 Tonnes

• & How many M777 Lightweight Howitzers will a Mi-26 Helicopter be able to transport as UnderSlung Loads, 5 , 3 or 2 in one go

Specifications of M777A1 155mm - Ultralightweight Field Howitzer - as per Army Technology :-
Production Weight = 3,745 kg (3.75 Tonnes)
Split Lift Weight, Elevation Mass = 2,414 kg
Split Lift Weight, Carriage = 1,331 kg
Load of Towing Eye = 60 kg
Dimensions :-
Overall Length, Towing Mode = 9.27 metre
Overall Width, Towing Mode = 2.77 metre
Overall Height, Towing Mode = 2.26 metre
____________________________________________________________________________________

Army also has an Equine Breeding Stud farm in Babugarh, Uttar Pradesh established 200 years ago.

Found this Webpage about Equine Breeding Stud farm, Hissar on the Official Website of Indian Army.
Equine Breeding Stud, Hissar ----- Clicky

History
Equine Breeding Stud (EBS), Hissar was raised on 19 Dec 1964, Consequent to Chinese aggression, to Meet the Animal Transport Requirement of the Indian Army. It has unique distinction of being awarded the Best Stud trophy consequently for five years (1998-2002).

Following types of breeding operations are undertaken:-

Horse Breeding
Thorough Bred Cell
Hanoverian cell
Trooper Cell
Sports Cell (Eventer, Jumper, Polo)
Mule Breeding: MA and GS mule breeding
Donkey breeding

Pics of IA's Stud farms & Studs

A Mule is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.

A Hinny is the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey.
Of the two F1 hybrids between these two species, a mule is easier to obtain than a hinny.

caesar · Post by **caesar** » 04 Apr 2010 14:57

EBS,babugarh{dist.ghaziabad) is the largest breeding centre of the army.world's largest stable-Equine Breeding Stud (EBS) is at Babugarh
http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... gevnepIXA=
Equine Breeding Stud, Babugarh

History

Equine Breeding Stud, Babugarh was raised in the year 1811 as Hapur Remount Depot. In 1901 UP Breeding Area with its headquarters at Babugarh was raised by Capt BJ Humphrey during World War-II. As the requirement of animals increased, a Reserve Remount Depot was raised in the year 1943.

Following the partition of the country in 1947, most of the established Remount Depots, Studs and Breeding Areas went to Pakistan. This resulted in acute shortage of Mules, particularly MA Mules, for the Army and Hapur Remount Depot was re-designated as Horse and Mule Breeding Area, Babugarh on 01 Sep 1948 and was the first Equine Breeding establishment of the Indian Union. Mountain Artillery Mule breeding was started in May 1957 in addition to horse breeding. Later GS Mule breeding and Donkey Breeding were added. Subsequently, in the year 1959, the unit was renamed as Equine Breeding Stud, Babugarh.

Types of breeding operations :-

*
Horse Breeding
o
Thorough Bred Cell
o
Hanoverian cell
o
Trooper Cell
o
Sports Cell (Eventer, Jumper, Polo)
*
Mule Breeding: MA and GS mule breeding
*
Donkey breeding

Breeds of stallions and mares bred here:-

*
Horse breeding: Hanoverian, Thoroughbred, KWPN, Selle Francais, Anglo-Arab,Reindelier, Trotteur Francais and Neitherland Saddle
*
Mule breeding mares: Pyrennene, Comtois, Brittany and Haflinger
*
Donkey breeding: French

Hanoverians are proven sporting horses world over. They have proven to be good Show Jumpers and Dressage horses. Consequent to import of 04 stallions and 20 mares from Germany in 1997, Hanoverian breeding is being carried out at EBS, Babugarh. Presently this cell is having 04 Stallions and 33 mares out of which 02 Stallions and 09 mares are from imported lot.

Scientific developments in equine breeding and landmarks achieved :

EBS, Babugarh started a unique project on AI in Equines to propagate the superior germ plasm in Stud mares. The stud, not only developed the technique of AI, but established a full fledged AI lab for the first time in the country and has been a pioneer in equine cross breeding program, a unique achievement in the world.

Due to the success of breeding activities and the professionalism Dept of Bio-Tech, Ministry of Science & Tech has awarded a prestigious project on “Development of Embryo Transfer Technology (ETT) in India” to EBS, Babugarh. The first foal (GAURAV) was borne at EBS Babugarh through ETT in Indian making India as first country in SAARC and 7th in world.

As a corollary to successful AI in equines, a project on Frozen Semen Technology in Equines has been started successfully.

EBS, Babugarh has established an Equine Fertility Centre, which will encompass all the assisted reproduction technology activities and carry out the concerned research projects to its logical findings.

The stud is spread over an area of 2033 acres and is catering for production of fodder requirement of all the equines being maintained in this stud. The economic success of the Stud is directly dependent upon the quantum, type and quality of nutritious fodder produced. Mechanization of farming operation has been the hallmark of the stud for quality fodder production.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 05 Apr 2010 09:20

India, US Plan Record 9 Army Drills

New Delhi, April 4: The Indian and US armies will have nine joint drills this year, a record of sorts even at a time both countries have been increasing the complexity and frequency of military exchanges.

Some of the drills planned for this year will be war games built around battle scenarios and the others briefing sessions on battlefield tactics.

A separate programme of exchanges for the air forces and the navies of the two countries is being discussed. With no other single country does the Indian military have as many exchanges as it does with the US.

“We have reached a historic threshold with our relationship between the two countries,” the commanding general of the US Army Pacific, Lt General Benjamin R. Mixon, said. “The Operations We do Together are Reaching a Complexity of the Highest Level.”

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 05 Apr 2010 10:58

I have been wondering about this as well. From what I understand there are thousands of boys applying to the NDA, how can there be a shortage?

Sachin wrote:
If I am not mistaken we are never short of people to join the enlisted ranks. Stampedes occur in recruitment rallies. If this officer shortage continues, how about the Army and GoI design a system which would make officers out of the people who are already in the army (as enlisted ranks)? Off course, there would be points like lack of education, coming from a different strata of society etc. But then we need to start a change some where.

Out of curiosity, why is this a problem? Are officers not chosen from all economic strata? (clarification: I don't know anybody in IA)

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Apr 2010 11:15

Carl_T wrote:Out of curiosity, why is this a problem? Are officers not chosen from all economic strata? (I don't know anybody in IM)

Generally PBOR comes from rural backgrounds with very basic educational qualifications. For potential officer candidates, the trend I have noticed is that they come from towns/cities with better education and living facilities, and in most cases their parents would already be having a better paid job etc. Some of them would be sons of serving/retd. JCOs as well.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 05 Apr 2010 11:18

In that case why not recruit officers from small towns and villages? If they are not as well educated, is it possible to increase no. of seats in the academies to induct enlisted men?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Apr 2010 14:46

Carl_T wrote:In that case why not recruit officers from small towns and villages? If they are not as well educated, is it possible to increase no. of seats in the academies to induct enlisted men?

There is already a system in place for such a thing. It is called Army Cadet College(ACC). On selection (which is pretty tough) PBOR complete 3 years at ACC and then pass out with cadets from IMA. IMA and ACC are situated close by in Dehradun. My dad (ex-IA) came from such, if not same, system(applicable to non-mdecial admin officers in Army Medical Corps).

You can read more about it here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_College

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 05 Apr 2010 15:31

RVC = Remount and Veternary Corp

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 05 Apr 2010 19:46

Army war game in Rajasthan along Pak border this month

Yodha Shakti will be held for a month from mid-April to mid-May in the Pokhran ranges and it will validate battle concepts of a Strike Corps with use of its mechanised troops and close air support from Indian Air Force's fighter aircraft and attack helicopters,"

Army officers said

About 5,000 troops, which is about one-third of a division, would be participating in the exercise that would be held in a digitised environment to test the Army's capability to carry out a network-centric operation,"

the officers said.

Ankit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Apr 2010 22:20

X-posting from Artillery thread:

NRao wrote:
Centre okays raising of 2 mountain divisions

(These are in addition to the two that were raised earlier. However:)

With the hike in sanctioned manpower strength, the Army would now have more elbow room to rapidly raise the two divisions and train them in the shortest possible time. Moreover, the Government asked the Army to hasten the process of procuring Howitzer guns aptly suited for mountain warfare.

The Army planned to go in for more than 200 Howitzer guns which can be carried on horse back or in helicopters to the remotest posts in the rugged mountain terrain in Jammu & Kashmir and North-East.

The guns were likely to procured through the foreign military sale (FMS) route from the US, sources said.

Nrao saar, how did you figure out that these two divisions are in addition to the two raised earlier? To me it seems that IA has been allowed to increase its manpower. This will allow the IA to fill out the troop strength that would have been puled in from other formations to allow for raising these earlier mountain divisions. DDM has as usual mixed up the facts and narrative.

Added Later: These seem to be new raising. This article explains it better:
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... my/322331/

excerpt:

In a move that could raise the hackles of neighbouring Pakistan and China, India will soon raise two new division-sized army formations to give more teeth to its mountain warfare machinery.

"The two new formations will be raised in a two-phased plan in about five years," the sources said. Under the first phase, which will be implemented in two years, the two new divisions headquarters along with a brigade each, would come up, including the headquarters' support elements such as signals, provost, and intelligence units. Implementation of the second phase would take another two to three years and during that period the complete division would be ready for operation. At the end of the five years for raising the new formations, the two divisions would also have its air elements functional. {LCH anyone }

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 05 Apr 2010 22:29

negi wrote:
ASPuar wrote: After all, according to them, there is no problem with the service conditions and compensation of the armed forces personnel. There is nothing niggardly or miserly about the compensation provided by the govt to the armed forces, and they certainly arent being beggared!
You are overreacting for compensation being provided to those currently in service as per 6th pay commission recommendations vs the pension being awarded to retirees are two different issues , don't try to use one to twist the argument .

Also there is really something amiss in this particular case for my grandfather who retired way before the gentleman in question used to draw more than 1000 INR in pension (after 5th pay commission recommendations were implemented) and he was not a commissioned officer.

Lastly one rank one pension is a different issue and deserves separate discussion.

I must add here that there is nothing wrong in Rs1000/month pension for a govt employee that retired in 1970. That was a respectable sum in that era in much poorer India of yore and since his pension is inflation protected, as mentioned in the article the person is getting his dues as promised. An IAS retired in 1970 would be getting the same amount as this gentleman. Pensions are always calculated based on your last drawn salary which never changes for as long as you live and draw pensions but it is protected against inflation by way of DA. Base scale for pensioners doesn't change with pay commissions but pensioners get the same DA as current govt employees. Also a pension of Rs1000 +DA would mean a lot more money than many would think.

Current Central govt employees are already getting 35% of their base salary as DA on year 2006 scale including 8% given for this year. Rough estimate for 40years of DA including the hyper inflation era of 80s and 90s could be ~500 to 1000% which would translate in a pension of Rs6K toRs10K/month.

Now what is niggardly and miserly about it is that this guy lost an arm in service of nation, meaning he lost his ability to earn after retirement and needs more money to maintain a normal lifestyle because of the disability. He should be getting much better compensation than just the pension.

One more thing,

A person retired in 1970 at age 60 would be 100 years old today which means people retired in that year are generally speaking dead now for several years. This gentelman, because of his accident must have retired pretty young so his case is unsual and sticks out as sore thumb.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Apr 2010 22:42

Katare wrote: I must add here that there is nothing wrong in Rs1000/month pension for a govt employee that retired in 1970. That was a respectable sum in that era in much poorer India of yore and since his pension is inflation protected, as mentioned in the article the person is getting his dues as promised. An IAS retired in 1970 would be getting the same amount as this gentleman. Pensions are always calculated based on your last drawn salary which never changes for as long as you live and draw pensions but it is protected against inflation by way of DA. Base scale for pensioners doesn't change with pay commissions but pensioners get the same DA as current govt employees. Also a pension of Rs1000 +DA would mean a lot more money than many would think.

Katare, you miss a basic point One rank one pension.

IAS HAS IT

Armed forces fought for it, BJP promised to implement it in last elections, the Armed forced veterans association said en bloc to vote for BJP due to that. Congress won and implemented it ONLY for the PBORs.

People wonder why there is shortage of officers? After being REPEATEDLY and regularly shafted?

In fact if not for BJP making it a political issue, the PBORs would be suffering still, yet apparently the fear of BJP was not enough for Congress to give the due to officers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2010 22:46

Rohit and NRao, Is this the same old news of two mountain strike corps being raised or is it in addition?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Apr 2010 23:12

ramana wrote:Rohit and NRao, Is this the same old news of two mountain strike corps being raised or is it in addition?

ramana, these are new raisings as per the Indian Express article I have posted. The earlier ones are already in place (to an extent). This takes the mountain divisions from 10 to 14. And my guess is that these will be some where between North and Central India - in order to make impact on Pakistan border. May end up in Northern Command and duel tasked for LAC and LOC.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Apr 2010 23:22

The Army already has 10 Divisions dedicated to mountain warfare and another infantry division earmarked for high altitude operations.

"The two new formations will be raised in a two-phased plan in about five years," the sources said.

The article to me seems to state only 2 new divisions being added to the existing 10. Believe me, I would be much happier with 4 new divisions but that is not what the article seems to infer. Also how could the initial 2 divisions already be in place when the time frame was 2-3 years for its induction?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Apr 2010 23:27

tejas wrote:
The Army already has 10 Divisions dedicated to mountain warfare and another infantry division earmarked for high altitude operations.

"The two new formations will be raised in a two-phased plan in about five years," the sources said.
The article to me seems to state only 2 new divisions being added to the existing 10. Believe me, I would be much happier with 4 new divisions but that is not what the article seems to infer. Also how could the initial 2 divisions already be in place when the time frame was 2-3 years for its induction?

Sirji, you're a bit late to the party...many moons ago, there was report that IA has raised two mountain divisions for North-East - to be under IV and III Corps respectively - these were the 55th and 56th Mountain Divisions. These two(in the report) are yet to be raised - lets see where they are located and what numbers they get. IA already has 12 Mountain Divisions+1 Infantry Division. These two will add to the existing 12 MDs and raise the number to 14.

There are many possibilities of deployment - (a) one each for the Chusul-Dhemchok Sector and Himachal-Tibet border (b) Northern Command Reserve - to be deployed on LAC or LOC as per requirement.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2010 23:43

Thanks for the good news.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Apr 2010 23:47

ramana wrote:Thanks for the good news.

You're welcome onlee saar.....

One more possible deployment scenario to above two - we might very well see the coming of age of a new Mountain Strike Corps with these two divisions. Point (b) can be in form of direct Northern Command reserve or under a new Mountain Strike Corps HQ.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Apr 2010 23:55

Thank you for your response rohitvats, I enjoy reading your (obviously well informed) posts. Like I said I am much happier with 14 rather than 12. The DDM article was confusingly worded as it should have said the IA already had 12 mtn. divisions not 10.

Anyway a 40% increase in ambassadors of goodwill to our western and northern neighbors is better than a 20% increase any day.

Cheers.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 06 Apr 2010 00:02

Sanku,

I have written and explained, as I understand it, in detail several times about OROP and how no one has it. I do not want to get into that circular argument/conversation again.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 06 Apr 2010 00:26

Ajatshatru wrote:Now 2 new more mountain divisions are being raised by fresh recruitment of additional 20,000 (10,000 x 2) men into the army specifically for mountain divisions .... and these 2 new mountain divisions by additional recruitment would become operational in a few years from now.... Hence 10 + 2 + 2.

As per artical, within 2 years both new 2 Div will have HQ with 1 Brgd. each, signal , logistic and Intelligence units. After 2 years they will start recruiting soldiers for other Brgds as each Divs will have 3-4 Brgds. So fully operationalize withing 5 years with air support as other dimension.

Ankit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 00:28

Ajatshatru wrote:So as I understand it, IA had 10 mountain divisions but two new were being raised from within (i.e. no new recruitments thus total strength of army still remained the same at 1,414,000) and these mountain divisions would have become fully operational in a year or two.

Now 2 new more mountain divisions are being raised by fresh recruitment of additional 20,000 (10,000 x 2) men into the army specifically for mountain divisions .... and these 2 new mountain divisions by additional recruitment would become operational in a few years from now.... Hence 10 + 2 + 2.

Am I correct to reach this conclusion?

Correct. Only one point - a mountain division (or any other formation - not even a battalion) will never be raised with fresh troops only. It will always be mix of old and new to provide the necessary balance. For example - IA pulls 3 Infantry battalions (a brigade worth) from other formations across India to raise the 1st brigade of this new mountain division. It will also raise 3 new battalions (under different regiments) to fill the void in terms of numbers...even in these new battalions, there will be trained and experienced soldiers from other battalions of the regiments. After all, you'd need men at various levels and with varied experience....fresh blood will be mixed with old one.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 00:29

tejas wrote:Thank you for your response rohitvats, I enjoy reading your (obviously well informed) posts. Like I said I am much happier with 14 rather than 12. The DDM article was confusingly worded as it should have said the IA already had 12 mtn. divisions not 10.

Anyway a 40% increase in ambassadors of goodwill to our western and northern neighbors is better than a 20% increase any day.

Cheers.

happy to be of help.....

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 00:44

There were a few posts on the TSP thread about the political orientation of the US Mil. Are there any public surveys about political alignments in the Indian Mil?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Apr 2010 01:14

India, Pak to launch major wargames at same time

NEW DELHI: In a coincidence that has the potential of raising tension levels, the Indian and Pakistani militaries would be conducting major wargames later this month virtually within shouting distance from each other.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2010 07:47

From Ram Narayanan

The Tribune, Chandigarh, 4 April 2010.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100404/edit.htm#2

Challenges before the new Army Chief

by Lt-Gen Vijay Oberoi (retd)

General V.K. SinghGeneral V.K. Singh has taken over as the 26th Army Chief in an environment full of challenges. Nearly half the army is committed in fighting various insurgencies and a proxy war. The combat potential of the army is at an all-time low of nearly 50 per cent.

There has been little modernisation in the last decade or so. The budget for the army gets reduced every year in real terms. The deteriorating civil-military relations do not bode well for the safety and security of the nation. And the regional security environment is cause for concern.
The status of army personnel is dwindling continuously, adversely affecting the morale of the rank and file. The shortage of officers is again at a precariously high level. The veterans’ resentment consequent to the dragging of feet by the government on their long-pending demand for one rank one pension (OROP) threatens to boil over.
The situation reminds this writer of the battlefield message sent by a General to his Emperor: “Am surrounded both sides. My centre cannot hold. Situation excellent. I shall attack.” Will the new Army Chief, who had cut his professional teeth in a proud and valorous regiment, replicate this by being proactive? The citizens, who have a great affection for the army, do expect it from him.
Even if Gen Singh goes on to hold other prestigious appointments in or outside the government in future, they will never be able to match this appointment — in prestige, satisfaction and the affection he will get from his vast command and indeed from the whole country. He will also have to reciprocate to the maximum extent by his deeds. Consequently, he must command with honour and neither let carrots being dangled in his face nor pressures and threats change or influence the decisions he takes.
There is need to highlight a few issues that may help the Army Chief to reinforce, modify or negate the conclusions he may have reached. They may also supplement the briefings he will receive from his staff and advisors, which may not always be completely objective.
In democracies the world over, the political leadership makes national policy and the national security strategy, with the active participation of civil and military officials of the country. However, in India, the military has been deliberately kept out of the policy formulation loop and even after over six decades of loyal, patriotic and dedicated service to the nation, it is obvious that it is still not trusted! Nothing else explains the reasons for its exclusion from policy formulations, the inability to evolve a viable and comprehensive structure for higher defence, the non-articulation of a national security strategy since Independence, the non-appointment of a CDS accepted nearly a decade back, the non-integration of the Ministry of Defence and not the least, the muzzling of the three Chiefs, even when they speak on professional matters and say what needs to be said.
This state of affairs must change. It is only the Army Chief with the support of the other Chiefs who can convince the leadership of all parties and not just the party in power that they discard their doubts and stop listening to those advisers who have a vested interest in perpetuating this state of distrust of the military.
The military also needs to modify the concept of being apolitical. The army’s long standing stance of keeping a distance from the leaders of political parties other than those of the party in power needs to be modified. In a parliamentary system like ours, policy is formulated by all parliamentarians despite differences of the opposition. After all, the Parliament Standing Committee on Defence and similar other committees are all-party bodies. Consequently, though remaining apolitical, the army needs to apprise and discuss its concerns with the political leadership across the board. This would not reduce the apolitical nature of the army, about which it is justifiably so proud.
A related suggestion is to make the political leaders of the nation understand the true meaning of ‘civil control’. It implies the supremacy of the political leadership over both the military as well as the civil bureaucracy. Unfortunately, our political leaders either do not understand this or find it easier not to understand it. The political leadership must deal with the military directly, just as they do with the bureaucracy and not through the latter, which is the case at present.
In its secondary role of assisting the civil authorities, the army must be employed as a last resort and such employment must be for the minimum period. However, the reality is that because the army delivers efficiently and with alacrity, it is being called out without first using the other instruments available to the government. It is also being incorrectly employed on such tasks for prolonged periods, like in Nagaland, Assam and Jammu and Kashmir for 50, 30 and 20 years respectively. Such long deployment on secondary roles affect the combat potential of the army, alienate the populace and lower the morale of the troops. Units of the Central Police Organisations (CPOs) are continuously being raised and yet the army deployments continue. Why?
The last issue relates to senior officers of the army, who are the custodians of our value systems. Unfortunately, in recent years, the number of cases of misdemeanour by senior officers have increased. This trend needs to be arrested at the earliest. The army does have stringent norms for promotion and only the best get through successfully.
However, to weed out the few whose motivational levels may have dropped, there needs to be greater emphasis on character qualities like integrity, moral strength, self-discipline and social as well as domestic probity or rectitude in standards of selection for higher leadership.

The writer is a former Vice-Chief of the Indian Army

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Apr 2010 10:08

rohitvats wrote:On selection (which is pretty tough) PBOR complete 3 years at ACC and then pass out with cadets from IMA. IMA and ACC are situated close by in Dehradun.

The number of officers coming out of ACC also would be very less, considering that Army's complaint of officer shortage has been there for ages. As I mentioned earlier, either we can think about revamping the whole system of Officer recruitment, or thinking about making an NCO/JCO centric Army (i.e these ranks forms the back bone). Some how, I don't feel increasing the pay & perks would bring in more talent. Infact this may lead to nepotism, in which people who are already on the know, would ensure that their kith & kin lands up in the job. B. Raman mentions in his book about such a system which was tried out in the RAW. The end result was that lots of incompetent people (thanks to their relatives already in the agency) landing up in critical jobs, with no acumen or interest to do the same.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Apr 2010 10:20

rohitvats wrote:
Carl_T wrote:In that case why not recruit officers from small towns and villages? If they are not as well educated, is it possible to increase no. of seats in the academies to induct enlisted men?
There is already a system in place for such a thing. It is called Army Cadet College(ACC). On selection (which is pretty tough) PBOR complete 3 years at ACC and then pass out with cadets from IMA. IMA and ACC are situated close by in Dehradun. My dad (ex-IA) came from such, if not same, system(applicable to non-mdecial admin officers in Army Medical Corps).

You can read more about it here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_College

Pardon the n00b question - If there are schemes such as these, there are thousands applying to NDA, along with schemes for inducting PBORs into officer ranks, how can there be a shortage of officers? Is the Army not in a hurry to solve this?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Apr 2010 10:25

The reason is not quantity, but quality. The armed forces looks for people with particular traits to groom them as officers, and not many applicants can pass those tests.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Apr 2010 16:25

Katare wrote:Sanku,

I have written and explained, as I understand it, in detail several times about OROP and how no one has it. I do not want to get into that circular argument/conversation again.

Well Katare, your understanding and the understanding of 100% of service men that I have access to (which is not insignificant) is drastically different. (one example is right there in the article Ramana posted a few pages back by by Lt-Gen Vijay Oberoi (retd))

At the end of the day, all the back of the envelop calculations count nothing for a retired officer who retired 2 months before 2006, when sees that his income is less than HALF of his course mate who retired 4 months later (not to mention older folks)

I hope you never have to explain to those folks, how GoI is doing the right thing.

Meanwhile I will take their word over yours, thank you very much. (and dont even get me started on what I think)

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Apr 2010 20:04

Jawans Rely on Peeping Toms to keep Track of Intruders

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 06 Apr 2010 21:01

Sanku,

One of my uncle-in-law (a 1969 Batch IAS) missed sixth pay commission by a month, he told me that if he has retired a month later (e.i. On Jan 2006) he would have qualified for almost twice as much in pensions. All his colleagues and juniors who will retire from same post as him would now get a lot more in pension than him.

My dad (MP govt employee) also gets miserly pension since he retired in fifth pay commission era while his juniors retiring now from the same posts are getting much better pensions.

Both of these folks don't like it and would love to get OROP but they also realize that they knew about it and planned accordingly while they were working.

Armed force’s pension issue is very complicated and a maze of confusing rules and changes implemented over the decades. Issues like changes in posts, elimination of posts, different retirement ages, SSC, parity with civilians etc are not so simple or easy to reconcile.

Govt should look on demands of armed forces with sympathy and find ways to ensure that soldiers feel that they are not being short changed. A separate pay commission for armed forces is a great way in removing the suspicions that IAS are fixing pays for armed forces.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Apr 2010 21:07

putnanja wrote:The reason is not quantity, but quality. The armed forces looks for people with particular traits to groom them as officers, and not many applicants can pass those tests.

If that is also the official version, there is no point repeating that "We are short of officers"

. We need to accept that the country in general, do not have enough personal who have the necessary quality and move on with life

. Saying that "more pay and perks is required" again is only going to lead to many other problems, nepotism would be the biggest of them all.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 07 Apr 2010 04:10

Army braces for cyber attacks

NEW DELHI: After the real world, the armed forces are on a red alert in the virtual world as well. Even as they tackle Chinese troop intrusions on the ground, they are grappling with a sharp increase in online espionage attacks from across the Line of Actual Control as well.

Top sources say the Army-CERT (computer emergency response team) recently issued the high alert to all military formations and installations to guard against "focussed large-scale cyber attacks'' that are being planned on "internet facing'' government organisations, prominent brands and corporate groups.

Quoting "reliable'' information, the alert ominously warns the cyber-attacks are likely to be launched from this month onwards. The date mentioned, in fact, is March 31. Effective measures must be taken to protect networks from data-thefts, "distributed denial-of-service attacks'', paralysing computer viruses and the like, it says.

Sources said several military establishments, including the Defence Services Staff College at Wellington, had even refrained from using computers directly connected to internet modems for three-four days over the last week as a precaution. Though the alert holds the cyber-attacks can originate from any country across the world, the suspicion is firmly on Chinese hackers.
...................

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 07 Apr 2010 05:39

somnath wrote: Anjan ji, in all CI areas, the Army has complete primacy in decision-making, regardless of what the official gazette might say about protocol precedence..Heck, in areas under AFSPA, servicemen cant even be prosecuted as per "normal" procedures..

I dont really understand your point...Are you saying somehow that American soldiers (and those from other democracies) have easier lives (relative to their civvie counterparts) to lead compared to Indian soldiers and hence the latter should have higher protocol precedence?

Protocol has real meaning only when two people have to interact with each other. Since the US military doesn't really operate within the confines of the United States they very rarely interact with own civil administration and police. Protocol is probably therefore a minor-issue for them.

Would you care to explain the bolded part of your statement? Where is the systemic evidence of the services having to "clear up" the mess created by civilians? The semantic is very similar to those used by the Paki military..

Right. Pointing out flaws in the civil service is tantamount to being a paki-army cheerleader.

Do J&K and the NE qualify? Armies aren't meant to be used for counter-insurgencies. For the largest part you wouldn't have insurgencies if the civil administration did a decent job. Do the ever so often riots qualify? Does absolute lack of disaster management ability qualify? Why is it that the army is called out for every other damn thing?

So when people talk of how rank-parity is "lower" in India, what is the datum level of such assertions? We have seen the US..Below are examples of some other countries:
.
.
In case better quality people need to be attracted to the armed forces, there are other issues to be tackled (creatign an expanded SSC and leaner PC, better pay across the board and so on)...Pay parity is an absolute non-sequitor..

I don't believe you even understand what the discussion is about. The Armed Forces, the police and the IAS have differential rates at which people go up and the time scale in which people are promoted too varies wildly. A Major General after 30 odd years is not the equivalent of an IG in the police with 20 years behind him. He is also the product of a steep pyramid unlike say a joint secretary in the IAS. Yet the government would like to tell us that these 3 officers are equals. Only in the surreal world of the IAS can this make any sense.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Apr 2010 11:45

Meanwhile, the principle bench of the Hon'ble Armed Forces Tribunal consisting of Justice SS Kulshreshta, and Lt Gen SS Dhillon rejects the appeal of the "Ketchup Colonel" for leniency and reinstatement.

http://aftdelhi.nic.in/benches/principa ... 012010.pdf

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 07 Apr 2010 12:03

Actually, the US DoD has an order of precedence, and now that I have the time, I will post it here for your perusal:

http://jmarprotocol.com/helpfiles/Conso ... _Mar10.pdf

What Somnath says is correct, in that it is very different from ours, and we should understand that it operates in a very different social context. Nevertheless, since it has been mentioned, it is worth examining. It essentially consists of 7 "Bands" or "Codes", which demarcate precedence.

Some interesting points:

Code1:
At the apex, in Code 1, are the President of the USA, and foreign heads of state.

Code 2:
In code 2 come other dignitaries, such as the Vice President, Governors of states, Secretaries of State of Various departments (This is analogous to our "Ministers of a Ministry", the terminology there is different), Chief Justice of the USA, Director CIA, Secretary of the Army, Navy and Air Force (Ministers of State), and the Chairman JCS, the Chiefs of the Army, Navy, and Air Force, etc, Generals, Admirals, Etc etc.

It is interesting to note, that in the US, the Director CIA is placed higher than Secretaries of the Army, Navy, or Air Force (which are analogous to our ministers of state, under the secretary of state for defence).

Why? Because the Director of Central Intelligence, was until 2001 a member of the US Presidents Cabinet. Since 2001, he is no longer a cabinet member, but still a political appointee. In the past, the Director of the CIA was also the head of the intel community (Note that Director FBI, or Director NSA etc are not even in the same "Code" as Director CIA).

The Dir CIA being a political post, and a political appointment, is nominated by the president, and confirmed by congress, and is usually held either by a career politician (George Bush Sr held this post before he became VP), or, sometimes, by a retired military officer. It is NOT a civil service appointment. The current incumbent, Leon Panetta, is a former Democratic Senator, and former White House chief of Staff.

In India, of course, Secy (R) IS, in fact, a civil service appt, and Somnath had said that the head of RAW is placed under LtGens. This is incorrect. The head of R&AW is designated Secretary (R), and is on our Indian WoP, equivalent to an Army Commander level LtGen (The seniormost level), and in New Delhi, is placed ahead of him.

And Im sure Somnath already knows this, knowing, as I know he does, quite a bit about intel services and the govt in general!

Code 3:

Code three contains judges from the courts of appeal (like our high courts), 4 Star generals, RETIRED 4 Star Generals, Under secretaries of the Army (Again, like Junior Ministers, and not civil servants).

Code 4:

Code 4 is where we see civil servants first appear, in the nature of Directors of Defence agencies, Principal Deputy assistant secys of defence, etc etc. Lieutenant Generals, and Retd Lieutenant Gens are also on this grade. Mayors of cities less than 1 mm pop (in their own city) also make the cut, as do the governors of Guam and USVI.

The list carries on, but I would point a couple more things:

In code 5, Major Generals and Retd Major Generals are placed higher than Tier II of the Senior Executive Service (The senior civil service in the US), which is one step away from Tier III, which is their highest level of posts. It is worth noting that Tier III civil servants report to LtGenerals, as may be seen here, under Appendix A:

http://www.cpms.osd.mil/sespm/docs/Fina ... endixA.pdf

County Sherrifs (Elected officials), are ranked along with Brigadiers, in Code 6.

City chiefs of police, for example, chief of NYPD or Chicago PD, or San Francisco PD, or LAPD, are ranked in Code 7, along with full colonels, and US Consuls in foreign lands. In India, of course, police chiefs of our cities are comparing themselves to Army Commanders in status.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Apr 2010 18:20

ASPuar wrote:In India, of course, Secy (R) IS, in fact, a civil service appt, and Somnath had said that the head of RAW is placed under LtGens. This is incorrect. The head of R&AW is designated Secretary (R), and is on our Indian WoP, equivalent to an Army Commander level LtGen (The seniormost level), and in New Delhi, is placed ahead of him.

ASPuar, the allusion to RAW might have been wrong (simply because it isnt covered in the link for Indian protocol order) - I simply extrapolated from the fact that DIB, D-CBI, DG-CRPF (mentioned specifically) etc are all rated below Lt Gens...But really, given that Secretary (R) is considered a peer to all of them, it would be a bit surprising if he is ranked higher...But I would defer to your judgement on this one!

On the broader issue, really given that in situations needing deep interaction, ie, CI ops, the Army anyway has the complete decision-making authority (J&K, or Assam, or Manipur) over the entire civvie bureaucracy, the protocol issue is given more importance than it deserves..

anjan wrote:Do J&K and the NE qualify? Armies aren't meant to be used for counter-insurgencies. For the largest part you wouldn't have insurgencies if the civil administration did a decent job. Do the ever so often riots qualify? Does absolute lack of disaster management ability qualify? Why is it that the army is called out for every other damn thing?

Anjan, if you look at insurgencies across the country, the reasons are political, not due to lack of civic governance..So in Kashmir, the problem would have been there even if we were governing with Swiss efficiency! about the rest, there is a conscious effort to reduce the "burden" on the military for most of these extraeneous tasks - CRPF replacing the Army in Kashmiri cities, NDMA for disaster management (and natural disasters call for Army deployment all over the world, nothing unique bout India)...So "Army called out for every damn thing" is a grossly wrong impression..