Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Oct 2015 22:05

The Navy has been pushing for DSRVs - which "mate" with stricken submarines at depths over 500 metres to rescue trapped sailors -- for well over a decade now but are still nowhere near getting them.

--> my theory is the western cabal has imposed a unspoken embargo on sale of this item
to india. either we need to make it ourself or buy it from russia with the necessary adapters
to dock with U209 and scorpene also. thats only way out.

this is similar to sabotaging our artillery deals. idea is curtail the capabilities of sub arm and keep dependent for certain things as long as possible

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Oct 2015 22:41

Kakkaji wrote:Minstry of defence clears military projects worth over Rs 12,000 crore

The DSRV is surprising and much needed project for our sub fleet as critical as the subs themself

What is part of digitising Pechora , are they moving it to Pechora-3M standard ?

The Rs 1,800 crore case for "digitization" of 25 firing units of the Pechora surface-to-air missile system was also approved by the DAC. This will ensure that the ageing Pechora system, which has a range of 30-km, can be used by the IAF for another decade or so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2015 00:19

This
http://defense-update.com/products/s/SA-3.htm

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2015 00:55

The SA-3 BTW has the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-15_radar which is a UHF radar, suitably upgraded, it can be used against LO targets. Operates with
PRV-11 "Side Net" E-band height finder (also used by SA-2, SA-4 and SA-5, range 28 km/17 miles, max height 32 km/105,000 ft)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Oct 2015 00:57

Karan M wrote:This
http://defense-update.com/products/s/SA-3.htm

After upgrade syas will handle targets with RCS of 0.3m^2.
Would be nice to know what would that represent.

Can they use these avionics on a Trishul type vehicle?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2015 01:09

Cruise missiles are stated to be ~0.5mtr^2 and below, from the front & we are basically getting radars that are capable of tracking such targets (provided the radar is placed high enough, LOS considerations).

The radar vehicles, C3I are all on trucks. Its the SA-3 missiles which are on static mounts IIRC. This upgrade may just move them to Akash style trailers for survivability.

Whats good about SA-3 is that if surveillance radar & height finder are also upgraded, the former is UHF, which makes it significantly effective against targets optimized in the x and nearby bands.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 30 Oct 2015 04:07

I think today's DAC meeting, except for the Pinaka order, was mostly to clear purchases from Russia during Parrikar's visit starting tomorrow.

A lot of these contracts have been necessitated due to delays in acquisitions/ upgradations during the UPA rule. However, I am glad that these pending deals are being cleared now. These are necessary before the long-term 'Make in India' deals start kicking in.

Very happy about the Pinaka order, and the Navy tugboats order (if it is given to Indian shipyards).

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Oct 2015 05:45

Parrikar going to Russia to finalise deals for Modi to sign in December.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, on the eve of his departure to Russia, says he hopes to "prepare some [contracts for signing during] Prime Minister Narendra Modi's annual summit visit to Russia in December.

In an interview on Thursday to Russian news agency ITAR-TASS, Parrikar said: "(F)or example, the project for joint production of Kamov Ka-226 helicopters. I hope to use my visit to have it inked on paper when the prime minister arrives. Also the purchase of S-400 missile systems. We anticipate these projects to be coordinated by next month."

Although he did not state this during his interview, ITAR-TASS is reporting on its website that "Russia (is) to lease another nuclear sub(marine) to India in December".

In 2012, India had leased a 12,000-tonne Akula-class nuclear-powered attack submarine, the INS Chakra, for a ten-year period for $900 million. At that time, then defence minister, AK Antony, had confirmed that negotiations were under way for a second nuclear submarine.

The Kamov-226T is a 3.5 tonne, two-pilot, light helicopter that is specially modified with a new engine for Indian requirements, primarily high-altitude operations along the Himalayan borders.

At their last summit meeting in New Delhi in January, President Vladimir Putin had personally requested the Indian prime minister for Russian Helicopters to be awarded a contract for building 197 Kamov-226T reconnaissance and observation helicopters in India.

This will be built under the "Make in India" initiative. The Indian partner is being decided and is likely to either be Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) or Reliance Defence.

The S-400, known in Russia as Triumf, is an extremely potent, long-range, ground-to-air defence system that is used to protect area targets from missiles that are fired from 40-400 kilometres away.

Parrikar also said he would press Russia hard for ensuring a high serviceability of Sukhoi-30MKI (Su-30MKI) fighter jets, through a smooth and reliable supply of spare parts and systems. There is concern within the Indian Air Force (IAF) that its Su-30MKI fleet, which will eventually comprise of 272 fighters, has had serviceability rates as low as 45 to 50 per cent.

Parrikar told TASS: "We have almost 220 of them (Su-30MKI) now and ultimately the number will reach 270, which represents about 40 per cent of IAF. When you have 40 per cent of air force strength from a particular maker, you are obviously interested in ensuring that they are serviced properly. Those aspects will be discussed and we are coming to conclusions, to solutions to the problem. I hope that these problems will be resolved very soon so service operation is substantially enhanced."

The proposal for India and Russia to co-develop two major aircraft - the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA) - has been in trouble for some time. Parrikar spelt out the problems in both projects.

"As for the FGFA, negotiations will proceed further and we have halted ourselves to establish things clear in our minds. But with the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft, there are serious issues needing clarification, let me be frank. There are some serious observations which need to be clarified and reviewed properly," said the Indian defence minister.

Finally, Parrikar revealed that the IAF intended to finalise the purchase from Russian Helicopters of another 48 Mi-17V-5 helicopters, consolidating its position as the workhorse of the IAF fleet. With this purchase, the IAF will be operating some 280 Mi-17 helicopters.

Parrikar will leave for Moscow and St Petersburg on October 30, and will meet his Russian counterpart in Moscow on November 2. Later that day, he will leave for a three-day visit to Malaysia, to attend the ASEAN Defence Ministers Meeting Plus. Late on Thursday evening, a meeting of the apex Defence Acquisition Council cleared a clutch of acquisitions: four 3,500-tonne multi-purpose vessels (MPVs) for the navy for duties like towing targets and tugs, for a cost of Rs 700 each; two Deep Submergence Rescue Vessels (DSRVs) for deep-sea rescue for Rs 750 crore each; 149 BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles to be built in India for Rs 924 crore; two Pinaka multi-barrel rocket regiments for Rs 3,300 crore; and the upgrade of IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft for Rs 4,300 crore.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 30 Oct 2015 05:58

Singha wrote:The Navy has been pushing for DSRVs - which "mate" with stricken submarines at depths over 500 metres to rescue trapped sailors -- for well over a decade now but are still nowhere near getting them.

--> my theory is the western cabal has imposed a unspoken embargo on sale of this item
to india. either we need to make it ourself or buy it from russia with the necessary adapters
to dock with U209 and scorpene also. thats only way out.

this is similar to sabotaging our artillery deals. idea is curtail the capabilities of sub arm and keep dependent for certain things as long as possible

Does Russia even make DSRVs? IIRC they could rescue their men from the Kursk when it sank.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Oct 2015 06:09

Austin wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Minstry of defence clears military projects worth over Rs 12,000 crore
...
What is part of digitising Pechora , are they moving it to Pechora-3M standard ?
The Rs 1,800 crore case for "digitization" of 25 firing units of the Pechora surface-to-air missile system was also approved by the DAC. This will ensure that the ageing Pechora system, which has a range of 30-km, can be used by the IAF for another decade or so.

Based on that, it looks like there are still 12.5 Squadrons of SA-3 remaining (or will continue to remain). Must be undergoing another major life-extension as part of this because based on the article below most would have expired by now.

First Akash missile system to fill gap in air defence

...
Without the anti-aircraft resources needed to protect these VAs/VPs, the outdated Pechora missiles, which began service in 1974 with a designated life of nine years, have been granted repeated extensions. The Russian manufacturers extended the life to 15 years; when they refused any further extensions, the DRDO extended it unilaterally to 21 years. By 2004, only 30 Pechora units of the 60 originally imported were still in service.
...

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Oct 2015 06:17

Karan M wrote:...

The radar vehicles, C3I are all on trucks. Its the SA-3 missiles which are on static mounts IIRC. This upgrade may just move them to Akash style trailers for survivability.
...

This image from October 8, 2009 shows two SA-3 missiles mounted on a truck.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Oct 2015 06:31

but I remember seeing such trucks in republic day parades long ago.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Oct 2015 06:44

^I think that is a replenishment vehicle and it cannot actually fire a missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Oct 2015 07:48

not strictly a military acquisition but I figured the only people who appreciate it will hang out here.
this idea is being used in jerusalem also.
I am always in favour of high loiter times for any C3I platform

- beats cctv on poles and drones hands down on wide area scanning , quality of camera etc.

this system started trials in madivala police grounds yesterday http://www.rt.co.il/skystar-100

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 291983.cms

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2015 09:25

Pechora deep upgrade is available from Poland and Russia both the system has been digitised. Smaller upgrades done by Serbia , Cuba , Ukraine also available

The Poland upgrade is called Newa SC and they have digitised pechora system and moved to tracked chasis for mobility.

Video Newa SC Live Firing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7238ywYPCCg

The Russian system is called Pechora-2M they have similarly digitised and made it mobile but on Trucks ,Venezuela , Syria , Egypt are known user of Pechora-2M

Video Pechora 2M - Part-1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJaF5bgoYU
Part-2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1HK61SqMmU

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2015 09:25

APA Picture on Pechora Upgrade http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-S ... des-A.html

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 02 Nov 2015 04:49

Foreign ancillary firms plan to set up base in India

NEW DELHI: Many foreign ancillary firms that supply defence components to big manufacturers are moving to set up base in the country, eyeing the thousands of crores of opportunity that is set to open soon with government raising foreign investment limit for the sector and finalising an offset policy.

The government has also worked out the defence offset policy that will be announced soon. "Seventy to eighty thousand crores of orders will come from the offset policy alone," a senior government official said. Offset policy relates to local sourcing or manufacturing foreign manufacturers have to do in respect of their defence orders.

Three proposals were listed for FIPB's meeting on October 19 while some other proposals in the pipeline are yet to move smoothly because of specific queries and rough formats of the proposed organisations, requiring many clarifications before they can be moved for consideration, officials said. The proposals listed for October 19 meeting included those from Rolta Meprolight Pvt Ltd, a joint venture between Indian IT solutions firm Rolta India and Israeli electro-optics company Meprolight; Delhi-based Quantum Simulators Pvt Ltd, a sister concern of US simulation and training solution provider Quantum Technologies; and BF Elbit Advanced Systems, a subsidiary of Bharat Forge that develops and manufactures defence systems such as artillery guns and ammunitions.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 07:23

SRai, that's a loading vehicle not a firing one..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Nov 2015 12:00

New price seems to be around 22 million:
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... ers_394039

Old price is
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ers-02755/
8 Million.

What does a Mi-17 cost these days?

139 for 2 billion for last purchases
and
48 for 1.1 billion now?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 13:55

Newa is a low cost upgrade without OEM support.. IMO, IAF will go for the more proven Russian upgrade in partnership with desi firms..
The Pechora upgrade uses fiber optic cabled links per the video which have to be laid out by the crew with 200 mtr separation

Akash uses microwave point to point links:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... a_2011.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JJnBS8mxiJo/ ... +IAF-5.jpg

Far more survivable system in terms of location flexibility and mobility. The Akash radar system is also much more sophisticated in terms of range, target handling capability & ECCM plus fully automated.

The interesting part about the Pechora-2M which we can emulate is the fake emitters for distracting ARMs placed around the missile guidance radar plus the optronics for day/night, DRDO has more than enough capability to add both. Though the latter seems to be partly because the original radar is dated and to guard against the possibility that even with upgrades its range is diminished by jamming.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 14:14

btw go through this in detail; copy paste in browser
2.bp.blogspot.com/-JJnBS8mxiJo/URgJZYuxpAI/AAAAAAAAD7c/nbBT08as0eU/s1600/Akash+Mk1+SAM+for+IAF-5.jpg

Just shows how sophisticated the akash really is.. it has ample capability to leverage newer missiles with more range & capability without changing the base system much

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2015 14:31

I looked at the range and speed to cover the distance the average speed of Akash is Mach 2 which is quite good , Note they also use sensor fusion

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 14:43

Makes me think more and more we have an alternative to the expensive Barak-8/MRSAM and with iterative upgrades, the Akash can be improved with Mk2, Mk3 and so forth.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2015 14:53

Karan M wrote:Makes me think more and more we have an alternative to the expensive Barak-8/MRSAM and with iterative upgrades, the Akash can be improved with Mk2, Mk3 and so forth.

Not really , Ramjet has limit when it comes to altitude and speed also the skid via turn etc is not possible for Ramjet , Akash is a cost effective option for mass product SAM that can replace SA-3 and SA-6 in Army. Even adding ARH or IIR seeker wont give much benefit beyond a point and make it expensive and hence its better to increase its range for Mk2 and improve ECCM/Range feature for Rajendra

Barak-8/MRSAM is a different beast with more modern dual pulse propulsion , more agile at higher altitudes, higher top speed and average speed , far longer range , higher Pk due to ARH etc

They can continue using Ramjet for A2A missile for Astra plus

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 15:14

And who says they have to use ramjet for Akash Mk3 etc? You didn't get what I said and are on a tangent.

I said Just shows how sophisticated the akash really is.. it has ample capability to leverage newer missiles with more range & capability without changing the base system much

The base TLR/FLR, aka Rajendra can guide missiles to 60km (aka high fidelity tracking for missile guidance from radar), and search out to 80 km.
The 3D CAR can search out to 150km.
The C3I is top notch and fully automated & can handle 100 targets..

This system itself with minimal changes is good for a 50km class missile system or more. Basically the base radar & C3I for Akash is far more than required for a low cost, ~30Km SAM & can be leveraged to expand the envelope far more.

Then, ARH equipped missiles don't require a heavy, high powered Rajendra style FCR to guide the missile in with very high fidelity tracking.

A surveillance radar with high grade tracking may suffice.
Now note the 3D CAR has a replacement in trials already: (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4eSFSI61w0Y/ ... MRSR-2.jpg).

There is a mobile radar being developed for Army Air Defence, the MMSR:https://i.imgur.com/7LVLgkV.png
80km range AESA, 100 target TWS.

In which case, with lighter ARH based missiles & the dual propulsion used for MRSAM which is anyways DRDO's tech, we can make newer missiles with expanded envelope.

Again, given these are LRDE programs and were designed for multi-purpose (http://www.defencenow.com/news/406/indi ... orces.html) Besides the above-mentioned radars, state-run DRDO lab LRDE is also readying a new generation of multi-function radars which can be integrated with any weapon system to provide surveillance, early warning, interception guidance and raid assessment. These include a medium power radar called "Arudra”, a low-level transportable 150 kilometer radar ..

So retain existing Akash architecture, C3I, battle management and use cheaper single radar/missile combinations.

In short, we have far more options to get cost effective AD up and running than the expensive MRSAM.

Barak-8/MRSAM more and more appears like a political deal which was shoved down India's throat under the guise of "its Israeli, and it will come fast". Reality is its yet to arrive & most of the tech including radar & C3I is likely Israeli and they will seek to control parts of it.

The gent who pushed it subsequently tried to become the Israeli firms representative in India. Got embroiled in shady Siachen and Kashmir talks, and the Agusta deal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2015 15:47

Saar you said akash can be improved with mk2 , mk3 etc , Akash can be improved based on existing propulsion system , either by using additonal booster and improving ramjet burn time , if they opt for any thing else like a all solid design it wont be Akash Missile then.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 16:04

I am speaking of Akash system - the missile is just a part of it.

Akash is the missile + radars + C3I + logistics. Akash system becomes Mk2, Mk3 etc based on improving existing missile or even changing the missiles plus the attendant systems.

These are the missiles used in Buk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missi ... _9M317.svg

Buk itself is a deep modernization of SA-6 concept and architecture.

Point is the Akash system has a lot of performance baked into it already.. we can take it forward a lot more by changing the missiles or adding more to it.

By doing so, we reduce the need for expensive Israeli imports.

I look at building blocks to get an understanding of where a nation is & what it can make.

With Akash: Full SAM system able to reach out to ~60km with high grade tracking & surveillance of 150Km. C3I able to handle range of targets + quantity
With LRDE IAF/IA programs: LLTR, Arudhra, MMSR & Aslesha variants - all AESA, ranging from 80km out to 300km, covering even MRSAM's ELL/M-2084 capability
With Astra: ~80km Air launched missile, FOG INS, datalinks, ARH seeker, actuators, nozzle tech etc mastered
With MRSAM: Dual pulse motor, plus all the actuators for the fins

Net, building blocks are there to keep taking Akash program forward.

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Nov 2015 16:50

We tested the IIR seeker with the AAD once, rt ? I'm hoping that the seeker is a local one and quickly available for production. That is a big missing factor today.

And does Astra use our seeker and not the Russian one ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 17:01

srin wrote:We tested the IIR seeker with the AAD once, rt ? I'm hoping that the seeker is a local one and quickly available for production. That is a big missing factor today.

Its our seeker but we have had very few tests with it. Plus PDV (where it was used), has a much larger size & so that seeker may not exactly be compact.

And does Astra use our seeker and not the Russian one ?

Russian licensed seeker albeit with indigenized components (beyond the TOT).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 18:56

Austin wrote:Interview with Manohar Parrikar , confirms talks on S-400 ongoing

Indian Defense Minister: I have always seen Russia as an all-weather friend for India

http://tass.ru/en/defense/832683

This is the most significant part, the Su-30 part.

Also the purchase of S-400 missile systems. We anticipate these projects to be coordinated by next month.

There are also proposals for small private-sector companies interested in tying up with Russian companies to manufacture spares. Our industry representatives visited Russia in September and I think they have come up with a few proposals. I would in fact be raising the issue that since India depends much on Russian platforms, spares supplies in the future could make the use of these platform easier. Some of the key components would be manufactured in India under this “Make it in India” program. I expect some movement on that also.

- What kind of spares?

- For Su-30MKI fighter jets. We have almost 220 of them now and ultimately the number will reach 270, which represents about 40% of Indian Air Force. When you have 40% of air force strength from a particular maker, you are obviously interested in ensuring that they are serviced properly. Those aspects will be discussed and we are coming to conclusions, to solutions to the problem. I hope that these problems will be resolved very soon so service operation is substantially enhanced.

Then there are Mi-17V-5 helicopters, which we also intend to negotiate and finalize procurement for 48 more. With that, we will have some 280 Mi-17 helicopters.

Impressive how Parrikar gets the basic things right & how he has the numbers at hand.

Antony would have been all at sea.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 21:38

S-400 Range as plotted on the Indian MAP, with 12 systems and then 3 more
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... XhWUaxdwBo

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Nov 2015 21:56

Cross-post

RCI is seeking collaboration from Thales to develop 384X288 MWIR FPA based refractive system. They have issued a single-vendor tender.

RCI has developed 1st version of IIR seeker based on 128X128 LWIR FPA with a gear drive gimbal system. To improve the resolution, the following developments have been taken up.
a) 384X288 MWIR FPA based refractive system
b) Direct drive servo system
c) A catadioptric optical system

During the development the following issues have been observed.
I. Sun light from well outside the FOV causing image disturbance
II. Direct drive performance limitation during forward acceleration
Thales to take up the study and analysis of these systems and issues.

RCI will provide relevant information as follows.
a) Electro – Optical Subsystem
 Optics Specification
 Optics design and optics unit realization
 EO Testing
b) Seeker Servo System
 System performance specifications, Gimbal configuration, Specifications of servo components used, Mechanical drawings including masses & Moment of Inertias and Transfer functions .
 Test results of frequency response, time response of servo loops ( Stabilization, Position and Track loop), measurement of Field of regard, Isolation and decoupling values.
 Vibration levels , carrier body and trajectory motions expected etc.
 Documentation on design and test evaluation of Seeker servo system.

Thales Study will address the following aspects
a) Electro Optical System
 Stray light computation using CODEV
 Opto-mechanical analysis
 Test methodology for optical systems
 Control of stray light in the present optical systems
 Integration and alignment of optical systems including a refractive system and catadioptric systems
b) Seeker Servo System
 Define design inputs and loop configurations for better servo performance.
 Thales may define additional test procedures ( friction , un balanced mass measurements, resonance curve and LOS stabilization error etc) to be conducted so that RCI will carry out those tests and report the measurements .
 Study on improvement performance in terms of enhancement of stabilization bandwidth and Disturbance rejection i.e. Isolation ( by compensating non linearities like friction , body couplings, cross coupling , Gimbal resonance, flex lead torque due to cooling tube & cables and feed forward path).
 Enhancement of Distrubance rejection at 21Hz sine wave coming from the Helicopter body disturbance.
 Suggestion on hardware issues related to mechanical , electrical, cables & coolant tube routing, test evaluation procedures , tuning of controller to match with hardware results and stabilization requirement with respect to integration time etc. RCI will implement design modifications and carry out the measurements.
 Nonlinear Simulink model for servo loops (Stabilization, Position and Track loops). Simulation on isolation, decoupling, LOS stabilization accuracy plots, imbalance torque due to boost phase accelerations etc. and comparison with hardware results.

Interestingly,

Justification for single tender
Choice of going on single tender to M/S Thales is due to the following reasons.

USA does not respond to requests for selling FPAs also. Hence approaching USA may not yield any useful outcome.

Israeli defence firm are generally interested in selling their product than carrying out such analysis and help.

M/S Thales has completed such study for Programme AD for the front end Optronic seeker. M/S Thales has the expertise in designing and developing IIR seekers. They have provided technology base for developing IIR seekers in Air Defence mode. M/S Thales is ready to take up such study and analyse the issues as given in the scope of workand suggest remedial measures.

Hence single tender procurement is being pursued.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 02 Nov 2015 23:05

Karan M wrote:S-400 Range as plotted on the Indian MAP, with 12 systems and then 3 more
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... XhWUaxdwBo

KaranMji, thanks for the insightful infographic. Quick pooch: What tool did you use for this? Is there a Google Plugin for this kind of work?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 02 Nov 2015 23:43

Karan M wrote:S-400 Range as plotted on the Indian MAP, with 12 systems and then 3 more
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... XhWUaxdwBo

I wonder whether MTCR restrictions will block acquisition of the longest range 40N6 missile within the S400 system, with a 400 km range. The 48N6 with a 250 km range is within MTCR regulations. Or are MTCR restrictions only applicable for offensive missiles? The 40N6 will give enormous stand-off advantages to India vis a vis Pakistan and China.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Nov 2015 00:14

Absolutely need one on A&N.

And, for kicks, can they be placed on ships? Just curious. I know it will hurt CBMs, so I would never do that. But, was just thinking if I could park one near the NW corner of the Arabian Sea. You know ......

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 03 Nov 2015 03:11

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:S-400 Range as plotted on the Indian MAP, with 12 systems and then 3 more
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... XhWUaxdwBo
I wonder whether MTCR restrictions will block acquisition of the longest range 40N6 missile within the S400 system, with a 400 km range. The 48N6 with a 250 km range is within MTCR regulations. Or are MTCR restrictions only applicable for offensive missiles? The 40N6 will give enormous stand-off advantages to India vis a vis Pakistan and China.

Is MTCR applicable to defensive systems?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Nov 2015 03:37

Karan
thanks for the plotting

I think Andamans seems to be way off

Please check

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Nov 2015 04:36

Karan M wrote:S-400 Range as plotted on the Indian MAP, with 12 systems and then 3 more
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... XhWUaxdwBo

Good one!

I'm not sure about how effective a LR SAM would be in the mountains. Huge areas would fall into "radar shadows" behind peaks and valleys.

Also, I would think prime targets for MRBM (i..e Delhi, Mumbai, Visakhapatnam and Karwar) would need additional layered S-400 deployments.

Probably a good reference for likely S-400 deployments would be where the 13 current 400km THD-1955 radars are located.

THD-1955 -> light blue diamonds

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Nov 2015 06:45

Thanks guys - should have been clearer, not my work.

It was made by somebody called H Bhattacharjee using freemaptools.com.

I got it off twitter and it seemed very interesting to get the impact of a ~400km radius SAM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Nov 2015 08:05

the radars on these beastly systems are so heavy I doubt they can be lifted by tethered aerostats in the mountains to improve coverage.

also the circles assume everything in the center. in reality the big search radars could be center scanning out to 1000km and then fire control radars and shooters arranged in a ring as per protection pattern and terrain(mountains need more shooters and radars)....so circle could be bigger and irregular in shape.