Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Vipul »

The price India is paying for A.K. Antony’s comatose tenure.

Loyalty is no substitute for competence and escaping accountability invariably backfires. While India is the world’s largest democracy, the problem with democracy is that the only means of course correction or punishment is to have voters vote out the incumbent government once in every five years but the problem with this is that the damage that is already done. The damage in the case of some areas often sets the country back by much longer than the tenure as is the evidently the case with India’s last defense minister, A.K. Antony.

Modi had to step in to partly undo the severe damage caused by the previous regime by working on an intergovernmental deal with France to directly procure 36 Rafale jets by offsetting the need to reissue an RFP and also the need for technology transfer, and at a better price!

It is common knowledge that the IAF has been operating with severely depleted squadron strength for an uncomfortably long time, down to 34 against the 44 needed to tackle the twin threats posed by Pakistan and China.

After Rafale beat the other contenders in the global tender issued by the GOI for 126 MMRCA aircraft, the negotiations stalled over Dassault (the makers of Rafale) refusing to take full responsibility of manufacturing at HAL of 108 fighters. It would be pertinent to jog one’s memory on the observations made by the F/A-18 & 16 team which inspected the HAL facility while bidding for the MMRCA contract and they were shocked to see many critical processes and activities being executed in an archaic fashion. The larger question that needs to be answered is what has HAL delivered since it was placed in 1964 under the Ministry of Defense? The responsibility of India’s crippled and slow defense modernisation also finds its way to the steps of multiple congress led governments which lacked vision and alacrity that reflected in the moribund functioning of HAL, which continues to date.

The Modi Government through Jaitley earlier and Parrikar now has instilled a sense of vigour that National Security clearly mandates. The Modi government has accelerated clearances for long-pending projects considered critical to plug gaps in India’s operational military capabilities. In the first two meetings of the defense acquisitions council (DAC) it cleared proposals worth INR 40,000 crore, the third one gave the nod to projects totaling around INR 80,000 crore.

The DAC gave the green signal to long-term projects like the INR 50,000 crore project to build six new stealth submarines with foreign collaboration in India as well as deals for anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), “midget submarines” for special covert operations, Dornier aircraft, Russian Uran missiles for warships and the likes.

The issue here is the cost of the incompetence of AK Antony in terms of time, money and the vulnerability that he has lent to India. China with a near absent bureaucracy and clear ambitions has made rapid strides in scaling up both its defense and offense capabilities with their rail and roads reaching our border. Former General J.J. Singh when posted as Governor of Arunachal Pradesh painted an alarming picture of China’s build up and pleaded with AK Antony to counter the buildup but to no avail. The result was that we had to hurriedly purchase the expensive c-17 Hercules globe master aircraft so that when needed our troops can be mobilised and flown to the border quickly. Each C-17 cost the National exchequer USD2Billion! Contrast this with the MoU signed between Ministry of Railways and MoD (Suresh Prabhu & Parrikar) to build Rail infrastructure at the border, the blue print of which is ready! And in a span of 10 months!

A.K. Antony is a symbol of the congress DNA which is loyalty first, incompetence second and Nation last.

The mandate was perhaps not to let another Bofors happen to singe the UPA and preserve Sonia led Congress grip over power and nothing else. This charter has resulted in India’s defense preparedness being hampered severely with procurements coming to a halt, disgruntlement in the armed forces over the One Rank One Pension decision, the accident aboard INS Sindhurakshak are all unpardonable omissions which lie squarely at A.K. Antony’s feet and his master.

The measures being taken by Modi Sarkar are nothing but a consequence of the comatose tenure of A.K. Antony so much so that the PM had to lead from the front to procure 36 Rafale fighters in ready to fly condition to provide some oxygen (per Parrikar) to the gasping IAF. Honesty is hardly a substitute for vision, commitment to the Nation and decisiveness. A.K. Antony and Manmohan Singh are guilty of being comatose at the cost of National fortune both in terms of Economy and Security.

India is paying the price for these; one can only hope that the urgency being displayed by the current dispensation buys us time and capability enough to have the teeth when the circumstances in the future demand so. Till then, we have been left with no option by the Sonia controlled UPA to negotiate with our difficult neighbours from a position of combat unpreparedness.

The anointment of Manohar Parrikar who is 59 years of age and an IIT Mumbai Alumnus is reflective of this BJP led governments DNA of Nation first. Competence and agility where needed has determined leadership choices, Suresh Prabhu being another example to shake up Indian Railways from their slumber.

India just cannot afford to pay the price for AK Antony’s comatose tenure anymore; India has woken up under Modi Sarkaar!
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Karan M »

xposting

Guys please consider buying this book
Saurav Jha has been putting a lot of sweat into his articles and a fair bit comes out of his own effort
A bit of help never hurts

http://www.amazon.in/The-Heat-Dust-Proj ... 9351367495
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Indian defence imports rise 56% in three years

Image
India has spent a total of INR838 billion (USD13.1 billion) on defence imports over the past three years, with related expenditure climbing by more than 50% during this period, new figures published by the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) show.

Citing parliamentary remarks made by defence minister Manohar Parrikar on 24 April, the MoD said spending on "orders placed on foreign vendors" increased from INR224.6 billion in 2011-12 to INR263.1 billion in 2012-13 to INR350.8 billion in 2013-14. This represents an overall increase of 56% and average annual increases of 25%.

He said that major imported items included aircraft, rockets, missiles, tanks and simulators, while navy ships and some aircraft and radars were produced indigenously.

Parrikar made the remarks one day before an event in Pune organised by the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII), in which he said that the MoD is evaluating India's Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) with a view to concluding the review by June.

The revised DPP, he said, would be focused on enhancing transparency and efficiencies within the existing procedures as well as promoting the private sector's increased involvement in defence development and production. The latter is in line with New Delhi's ongoing 'Make in India' campaign intended to reduce dependency on imports.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Defence Ministry planning major changes in defence procurement; seeks to link offsets policy with 'Make in India'

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry is planning major changes in the way it procures military equipment,seeking to link the offsets policy with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Make in India' campaign after foreign suppliers repeatedly failed to meet the stringent conditions and ended up blocking investments of several hundred million dollars in the sector.

The ministry is finalising a "directed offsets" policy that will require foreign companies to set up manufacturing bases in India, offi ..

They added that the move stems from an acknowledgement that the stringent offsets policy that requires foreign firms to invest at least 30 per cent of the contract value in India has not spurred domestic manufacturing to the extent desired while the overseas suppliers have accumulated over $35 million in fines over the past few years. Foreign firms were able to invest just $676 million in India between 2008 and 2014 against the mandated $1.3 billion.


Outlining the new offsets policy, Defence Secretary RK Mathur said that the government is considering a directed offsets policy,as per which the foreign vendor will be mandated to manufacture a part of the system being procured under the Make in India programme.This will be initially applicable to large contracts that involve the procurement of major platforms.

For example, if I am buying Sukhoi, I would link it up with'Make in India' procedure and say that the Sukhoi manufacturing company must invest in India, with Indian companies, to manufacture the spare parts or components of Sukhoi itself, "Mathur explained to a Parliament panel. The 36-Rafale fighters deal with France will be the first major programme that is likely to follow the new policy. The ministry is likely to insist that at least 30 per cent of the value of the contract be used to set up ..
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by RamaY »

Experts to suggest simplified defence acquisitions
Defence Ministry’s notification. It has named a 10-member Committee of Experts to suggest amendments to the existing Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) and formulate a new policy framework.

The terms of reference for the committee are interesting: It is mandated to a) evolve a policy framework to facilitate ‘Make in India’ in Defence Manufacturing and align the policy evolved with the DPP 2013 and b) To suggest requisite amendments to DPP 2013 to remove the bottlenecks in the procurement process and also simply/rationalise various aspects of defence procurements.

The Committee, made up of eight non-government and retired government officials and two serving bureaucrats from the Defence Ministry, has been asked to submit its recommendations within 45 days.

The committee was formed after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, during his interactions with various stakeholders, realised that the existing system was opaque and left no room for flexibility in decision making leading to inordinate delays in crucial acquisitions. It is evident from the composition of the committee that the selection of the members has been done with careful consideration.

Headed by a former home secretary to the Government of India, Dhirendra Singh, it has experts drawn from different fields. Another IAS officer, Satish B. Agnihotri, who retired in February this year as Secretary, Coordination in the Cabinet Secretariat, had been a former Director General, Acquisition, in the Defence Ministry not very long ago. Air Marshal S. Sukumar, who retired a couple of months ago, was known as a specialist in procurement and acquisition throughout his long career in the Indian Air Force. Similarly, Lt Gen AV Subramaniam, an EME officer, recently retired as Director General, Weapons and Equipment from the Army HQ and has extensive knowledge about the obstacles in quick procurement and acquisition and so does former naval officer, Rear Adm. Pritam Lal, who too specialised in this segment at the Naval HQ.

An ex DRDO Scientist, Pralhada, retired Colonel KV Kuber, who has worked extensively with the Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) over the past decade and Sujit Hardas, Deputy Director General of the CII’s Defence wing, make up the non-government component of the committee. Two serving Joint Secretaries, Sanjay Garg and Subir Mallick are expected to give the government’s inputs on issues that will come up before the committee.

The Committee is likely to consider many aspects that dog India’s cumbersome acquisition process through a consultative process and come up with a user-friendly policy.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12062
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Vayutuvan »

Karan M wrote:xposting

Guys please consider buying this book
Saurav Jha has been putting a lot of sweat into his articles and a fair bit comes out of his own effort
A bit of help never hurts

http://www.amazon.in/The-Heat-Dust-Proj ... 9351367495
Karan M: Is this book available in the US? If amazon.in that would be fine too.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

New Indian Express @NewIndianXpress

Defence Ministry has cleared procurements worth Rs 1,10,000 crore, of which 90 per cent is under 'Make in India' campaign: Parrikar
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Gyan »

What was that saying about Statistics are like Bikinis?
Abhay_S
BRFite
Posts: 295
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Abhay_S »

vayu tuvan wrote:
Karan M wrote:xposting

Guys please consider buying this book
Saurav Jha has been putting a lot of sweat into his articles and a fair bit comes out of his own effort
A bit of help never hurts

http://www.amazon.in/The-Heat-Dust-Proj ... 9351367495
Karan M: Is this book available in the US? If amazon.in that would be fine too.

You can pre order thru Amazon.com in the US. i have already done. 8)
dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by dinesha »

6 new BrahMos missile systems for Navy likely
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 251816.cms
NEW DELHI: The government is likely to pave the way for six new BrahMos supersonic cruise missile systems for the Indian Navy worth about Rs 2,700 crore besides taking a call on Army's proposal for acquiring BAE's M777 Ultra-Light Howitzers, in the Defence Acquisition Council meeting tomorrow.

Defence sources said the issue of the $2.5 billion Avro replacement programme is also likely to be discussed.

Besides the Avro, the big ticket proposal for tomorrow is six new BrahMos systems with 89 supersonic missiles.

The cost of the project will be around Rs 2,700 crore, sources told.

Another important proposal to be discussed is BAE Systems' offer to build a howitzer factory in India to close a deal valued at nearly $800 million.

It was first considered by the UPA regime but underwent a quiet burial due to differences over price and offset commitments.
However, keen to sell its guns to India, the American company has offered to be part of the 'Make in India' initiative, sources said, adding that the firm is ready to set up an assembly line here with a local partner to make the guns domestically.

The sources said it would be a government to government deal between US and India.

The Army, which is in desperate need of new artillery guns, is keen that Foreign Military Sales (FMS) option be revived for BAE's guns and Acceptance be floated to US.

Another key proposal that would come under discussion is the lone bid of Airbus-TATA consortium to replace IAF's ageing fleet of 56 Avro aircraft with C-295 transport carriers.

A final decision was anticipated in November last year but Parrikar had then sought more information about the necessity of the aircraft and the bidding process.

Under the current defence procurement policy, single-vendor situation is not entertained unless cleared by the DAC.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by pankajs »

Livefist ‏@livefist 32m32 minutes ago

BREAKING: Indian MoD clears deals for indigenous license-build of M777 guns, the Tata-Airbus Avro-replacement bid & 200 Ka-226T light helos.
Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Ankit Desai »

Defence ministry clears projects worth Rs 25,000 crore
The defence ministry on Wednesday night cleared several major long-pending stalled projects worth over Rs 25,000 crore, including the Rs 11,929 crore one for 56 medium transport aircraft by the Tata-Airbus consortium, Rs 2,900 crore for 145 American M-777 ultralight howizers and Rs 3,000 crore for around 200 Russian Kamov light utility helicopters.

The defence acquisitions council, chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, also cleared the acquisition of two Boeing 777-300 (extended range) aircraft from Air India for the dedicated use by President Pranab Mukherjee and PM Narendra Modi as the Desi Air Force One
The DAC also cleared the initial construction planning process for the country's second aircraft carrier, the 65,000-tonne INS Vishal, as well as the Rs 2,700 crore acqusition of nine systems of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile for three Talwar-class stealth frigates and three Delhi-class destroyers.
-Ankit
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Singha »

does that mean the LUH is done and buried?
200 helis over their 30 yr lifecycle is a gigantic sweetheart deal unless like su30 we make most of it here from raw material level. I dont expect it to be anything more than bare bones equipped in avionics.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by RoyG »

Singha wrote:does that mean the LUH is done and buried?
200 helis over their 30 yr lifecycle is a gigantic sweetheart deal unless like su30 we make most of it here from raw material level. I dont expect it to be anything more than bare bones equipped in avionics.
LUH is finished. What sort of role is it going to play with the 226 in service?
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by pankajs »

IIRC, 50:50 split between the <Furrin> and HAL helos was the original plan. 200 Russian is in the ball park of that split.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago

Tata built C-295s will end up replacing the An-32s as well.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by RoyG »

I doubt it. With the 226 in service and manufacturing taking place in India, why would anyone bother with the LUH?
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by pankajs »

The projected demand was for 197+187 and that still holds good even after today's deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Light ... Helicopter
The Indian military have a requirement for 384 helicopters of which 187 helicopters will be built by HAL.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02/ ... -hals.html (Per plan as late as Feb 19, 2015)
HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), under development to meet a requirement of at least 187 light reconnaissance and utility rotorcraft for the Indian Air Force and Indian Army is all set for its first flight in August.
<snip>
HAL aims for final operational clearance in 2017, and begin deliveries to the Indian Army and IAF by the end of that year.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by RoyG »

How are they going to meet the 2017 Foc deadline when they dont even have an operational protoype?
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by srin »

So, is it goodbye Apache and Chinook ? Were'nt those deals supposed to be decided by this month, before the US Sec Def arrives ?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

RoyG wrote:How are they going to meet the 2017 Foc deadline when they dont even have an operational protoype?
Chalta Hai, Theek Hai :twisted: If not 2017, I am sure by 2127 FOC deadline will be met. Mera Bharat Mahan! :)
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by RoyG »

Rakeshji,

They're to be respected. They have every incentive to deliver on time. HAL is the gold standard of innovation and efficiency.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Singha »

with local KA226 the path of least resistance is just to make 100s more. the LUH test flight and certification problem would surely take some 7 years from 1st flight to IOC. too late unless they can show something much better than the KA226 as a honeypot trap.

here some fault must lie with HAL, they already had the engine and gearbox from ardigen project...they should by now have been in the flight test program to test the basic airframe and present a reasonable option.

another $20b of our taxes to the Rodina over 30 yrs
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

M-777 has no TOT in it ? Seems only Tata and Ka-226 has those clause
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Philip »

HAL has had enough opportunities for the BT,IJT,LUH,etc. Only the ALH and LCH seem to have been developed/managed successfully and has been acknowledged with orders/intended orders. There is ample scope for the LUH as even if it takes 4-5 years before it enters production,the demand for LUHs both mil/civil is enormous,approx 400-500 at least,with export potential too. The KA-226s are meant solely for the IA's requirements.There is no mention of the IAF and IN,where both LUHs could fit the bill with specialised versions.So let's not write it off as yet. Let HAL develop the LUH asap and orders will surely come.

The KA-226's unit cost is around only $4M and being twin-engine has better survivability in case of one engine failing.RR and Turbomeca are the engine options.

What is very exciting is the approval of the C-295 for the Avro replacements.For the first time a major aircraft type to be built by a pvt. entity. With its many variants,the aircraft could fill many a specialized role for the IAF and IN.

Kudos must be given to the DM and MOD for its swift decision-making of vital eqpt. which was pending with the UPA/Cong for a decade!
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Pratyush »

But, but,but, why is the MOD always creating a circus of having multiple systems with similar capabilities with separate supply chains. Creating a serviceability nightmares.

All the while giving CAG the opportunities to blow holes in the working of the forces.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Singha »

the $4 mil price tag for a twin engine helicopter ... cheaper than a MBT .... we shall soon find out the real bill once the deal is inked :mrgreen:
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Indranil »

The next decade or so will be fun. I am extremely happy with the C-295 deal. They will surely replace the An-32s. I will be happiest when Tata comes out with a civilian version of the same. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just rope in the Indonesians. I have always maintained that India's first civilian plane should be a turboprop. This 50-70 seater will be a much less crowded segment to enter. I have much lesser hopes for the 100-seater NCAD jet. There are far too many established players of various ranks there.

It is shaping up nicely. The Mahindra's will take care of the lower section: 5-20 passengers. Although, I hear GA-10 is having some problems with the tail. Until, the GA-10 is completed, the CNM-5 and GA-18 development is on the back-burner. Notice that this is the private sector, and it is also running late by years as well.

There is some overlap with in the 18-20 seater, with the Tatas manufacturing the 228s. However, the 228s are targeted at a higher section than the GA-18. There is overlap with the Saras, as well, but we will come to that later.

This leaves HAL with only two transport/passenger aircrafts, the Saras and the MTA. The last I heard on the Sara is that they are building an escape hatch at the bottom of the cockpit for the crew to escape. But, get that quickly, ,and start building the planes at Kanpur as the Dornier production winds down! The Saras has potential as it has much more power than the 228s and can operate at high altitudes. while the 14-seater is entering service, quickly put in the body plug and make the 18-20 seater version which has long been discussed. While that enters production, strap on the 25 KN HTFE engines and make a business jet, or a 20-30 seater jet! There is nobody in the field and there is a demand. Look at the PC-24! Then climb the ladder like Embraer did! Nobody is going to accept a 100-seater build by a green-horn as is being tried by the NCAD committee.

And then there is the MTA! Sit down with the RM, and say that what IAF is asking is impossible to achieve by ANY engine in the world! Finalize on an engine and get the effing plane off the board and off the ground!
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Indranil »

On the other hand, I am not completely convinced with the Ka-226 purchase:

1. It might be a strategic buy to keep the Russians happy.
2. It may be a good risk mitigation technique, should the LUH fail (there is a very low chance).
3. But, I can't buy the logic that it is bought to overcome the shortfall of light helos in IA/IAF. I can't see the roll-out of the first production Ka-226 and the first production LUH To be separated by more than 1-2 years.
3. Also, its indeginization content and serviceability in service remains a big question. HAL has a lot of experience with the LUH. Tata/Kamov do not.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

I think the ability to interchange modules was a big selling point to the Army. From MEDVAC to logistical delivery to whatever role the Army deems is necessary.
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by sohamn »

^^^^^^
I am convinced with the KA-226 purchase because it comes with reselling rights to other countries. From now on KA-226 will be manufactured and exported from India.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Indranil »

Rakesh wrote:I think the ability to interchange modules was a big selling point to the Army. From MEDVAC to logistical delivery to whatever role the Army deems is necessary.
I don't think that is a big deal. All helicopters today are multirole. The cabin layout can be changed quite quickly. Vivek Ahuja's analysis shows that the KA-226 is the lowest performer of the 4, because it has one of the highest empty weights.
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by sohamn »

Its not cabin layout in KA226, the entire cabin can be changed in minutes. In can be a sky crane sometime and in the next min it can be a air ambulance and in the next minute it can be a light gun ship.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by ramana »

So its more versatile and suits IA needs better.

Thanks, for clarification...
Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Vipul »

Gurgaon-based Sun Group front-runner for being India partner for Kamov choppers.

Hidden in the details of the government's Wednesday big­bang 'Make in India' push in the defence production was the fine print about the Russian deal, by nomination not tender, to manufacture 200 Kamov Ka 226 light helicopters, so desperately needed to replace the ageing Cheetah fleet which services one of the world's highest military deployments on the Siachen glacier. Work on this had begun right after Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit in December.

Assurances were exchanged then at the highest levels to look into this project. What's interesting is that Goa might just be the place where the facility may come up given that a feasibility study has been conducted to set up a chopper line there soon after Manohar Parrikar, former Goa CM, took over as defence minister.

Incidentally, if this works out, this would be the second major defence project for the state.The minister has already announced that the Goa Shipyard has been nominated to construct 12 minesweepers for the Indian Navy in a contract that is expected to cost over $1 billion. While Russian Helicopters (RH) is in talks with a handful of possible Indian partners, the lead contender happens to be the Gurgaon­based Sun Group.

The deal, insiders said, may see the group cornering a significant share of the pie, which could cross $700 million. RH is likely to produce at least 200 choppers in India.

However, the company is also looking at involving Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), though partnerships with other private firms are not ruled out.The Sun Group, whose vice­chairman and founder Shiv Vikram Khemka has been a non­executive director on the board of RH since 2011, has already set up a helicopter division and is likely to be involved in the Make in India project.

While Sun did not respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by ET, company officials said things were at a preliminary stage and it was too
early to comment. Sources say the Sun Group was also an offset partner for RH in a previous competition to supply light choppers to the army. That process was, however, cancelled by the government last year.

Defence ministry officials, who did not wish to be quoted, told ET that the RH deal has effectively killed any other light helicopter project for the armed forces, including a process that was initiated earlier this year for an Indian­led JV to manufacture a new range of choppers.

Several companies, including Tata, L&T and Reliance Infra has responded to a request for information.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Indranil »

sohamn wrote:Its not cabin layout in KA226, the entire cabin can be changed in minutes. In can be a sky crane sometime and in the next min it can be a air ambulance and in the next minute it can be a light gun ship.
I know what it means, but it hardly works like that in practise. A little short on time today, so will dwelve on it later. But suffice to say, if it is that good why did the Russians stop at 22-odd, and not found any other takers either?
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Singha »

the sikorsky skycrane had a similar concept and was not a success.
I am sure there is work pending to full operationalize and improve the KA226 to make it perform our needs.
which will be on our time and money now.

Image
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

indranilroy wrote:
sohamn wrote:Its not cabin layout in KA226, the entire cabin can be changed in minutes. In can be a sky crane sometime and in the next min it can be a air ambulance and in the next minute it can be a light gun ship.
I know what it means, but it hardly works like that in practise. A little short on time today, so will dwelve on it later. But suffice to say, if it is that good why did the Russians stop at 22-odd, and not found any other takers either?
The Ka-226T with French engine for hot and high altitude performance was recently certified , the older ones were running on RR/American engine , since the production has started recently they are slowly buy the T variant

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/h ... -226t.html
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Indranil »

As the production of the 228 draws to a close at HAL, Kanpur, I had thought, HAL would fasten its belt and concentrate on getting the Saras (14 and 18 seater) and MTA to the market. Instead, they have solicited an RFI for design, development and manufacturing of a small commuter plane :roll: . The plane will have a maximum capacity of 10 passengers with an unpressurized cabin. I guess they are looking at somebody like Pilatus who are offloading their PC-12 production to TASL.

But, I don't think this is a good move at all. The Saras would have given them a high performance aircraft with a category of 14-18 passengers which is not provided by any other manufacturer in India. Instead, sample the competition HAL has decided to enter in (in order of increasing performance):
1. Mahindra Aerospace GA-8: Rugged, 8 seater with no cabin pressurization.
2. Mahindra Aerospace GA-8 (turbo-charged): Rugged, 8 seater with no cabin pressurization.
3. Mahindra Aerospace GA-10: Rugged, 10 seater with no cabin pressurization, turboprop.
4. TASL, PC-12 (turboprop): Rugged, 12 seater, pressurized cabin, turboprop.

Why would a customer not go for these proven planes which are known to provide the best bang for the buck in their respective categories? And HAL will at least a few years behind them in reaching the market. The only thing that HAL has said is that it wants to use composites extensively, which means that there will be some weight savings. How much in 2000-2500 kg machine? Will that be a deciding factor for the customer. I beg to differ.
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kakkaji »

Posting in full:

M777 howitzer project: BAE to select Indian partner in 2 months
NEW DELHI: BAE Systems, the world's leading gun maker, will identify its main Make in India partner for the M777 ultra-light howitzer project within two months, officials said.

The project, being set up as part of the recently cleared $700-million, or about Rs 4,450-crore, deal to acquire 145 M777 howitzers for the Indian Army, will benefit as many as 40 small and medium enterprises in the country, they said.

The US firm also plans to shift the final production unit of the howitzer to India and that this new facility would be its hub for worldwide orders. A total of over $200 million investments are to be made by BAE in India as part of its offset obligations for the deal under the 'Make in India' programme.

It is learnt that BAE is in the final stages of selecting its major Indian partner that will help it set up an assembly, integration and testing facility here.

Among the Indian companies being considered as the sole partner for this facility are Tata, Mahindra, L&T, Punj Llyod, Vem Technologies and PSU Midhani. "We have received interest from a number of Indian companies," said John Kelly, vice president, at BAE Systems Inc.
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kakkaji »

indranilroy wrote:On the other hand, I am not completely convinced with the Ka-226 purchase:

3. But, I can't buy the logic that it is bought to overcome the shortfall of light helos in IA/IAF. I can't see the roll-out of the first production Ka-226 and the first production LUH To be separated by more than 1-2 years.
IR-ji

Beg to differ with you on this point. Given HAL's stellar record in meeting timelines, I think the LUH is at least 5 years from production.
Post Reply