International Aerospace Discussion

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yantra
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by yantra »

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - In trouble

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/us/in ... _190910966
Behind the scenes, the Pentagon and the F-35’s main contractor, Lockheed Martin, are engaged in a conflict of their own over the costs. The relationship “is the worst I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been in some bad ones,” Maj. Gen. Christopher Bogdan of the Air Force, a top program official, said in September. “I guarantee you: we will not succeed on this if we do not get past that.”
Lockheed has delivered 41 planes so far for testing and initial training, and Pentagon leaders are slowing purchases of the F-35 to fix the latest technical problems and reduce the immediate costs. A helmet for pilots that projects targeting data onto its visor is too jittery to count on. The tail-hook on the Navy jet has had trouble catching the arresting cable, meaning that version cannot yet land on carriers. And writing and testing the millions of lines of software needed by the jets is so daunting that General Bogdan said, “It scares the heck out of me.”
With all the delays — full production is not expected until 2019 — the military has spent billions to extend the lives of older fighters and buy more of them to fill the gap. At the same time, the cost to build each F-35 has risen to an average of $137 million from $69 million in 2001.

The jets would cost taxpayers $396 billion, including research and development, if the Pentagon sticks to its plan to build 2,443 by the late 2030s. That would be nearly four times as much as any other weapons system and two-thirds of the $589 billion the United States has spent on the war in Afghanistan. The military is also desperately trying to figure out how to reduce the long-term costs of operating the planes, now projected at $1.1 trillion.

“The plane is unaffordable,” said Winslow T. Wheeler, an analyst at the Project on Government Oversight, a nonprofit group in Washington.

....

While weapons cost overruns have long been a problem, the F-35 is also running into the changing budget realities, and a new focus on rivalry with China, that will probably require shifting money to a broader mix of planes.

Lockheed is fixing the most glaring problems. A support wall in the fuselage of the Marine version — the only one that can land like a helicopter — was strengthened after it cracked in a test in 2010. The tail-hook on the Navy model was just seven feet behind the landing gear, much closer than on other Navy planes. After the wheels flattened the arresting cable, the cable did not bounce up quickly enough for the hook to grab it. Lockheed is reshaping the hook to try to scoop up the cable.

But the “gorilla in the room,” General Bogdan said, is testing and securing the 24 million lines of software code for the plane and its support systems, a mountain of instructions that goes far beyond what has been tried in any plane.


Lockheed needs more foreign orders to realize volume savings and get closer to the Pentagon’s targets of $79 million to $106 million a plane, depending on the model. But to get those orders, said Mr. Aboulafia, the Teal Group analyst, Lockheed must be more aggressive in cutting its prices, especially since the allies have their own economic difficulties.

This year, Italy cut its planned order 30 percent. Britain and Australia have delayed decisions on how many F-35s to buy. Lawmakers in Canada and the Netherlands are questioning the costs.

And while Congress continues to support the F-35, the leaders of the Senate Armed Services Committee are concerned that production is now set to ramp up later in this decade just as two other major projects — the refueling tankers and a $55 billion stealth bomber program — will seek financing.

On top of that, the F-35 could be too sophisticated for minor conflicts, and its relatively short flight range could be a problem as the Pentagon changes its view of possible threats. Mark Gunzinger, a retired Air Force colonel who is now an analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said the Pentagon would need to shift money to longer-range planes as China and other countries expanded the reach of missiles capable of destroying American ships and bases.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

if the JSF is too costly, the f22 was too costly, the B2 was a legend in cost and the F117 never accounted for being the launch platform for VLO manned stealth (reportedly with a $40billion r&d budget in 1970s), means the US has never delivered a reasonably priced stealth plane so far...perhaps its the nature of the tech....perhaps its the 100s of things the US keeps as requirements (mission creep)

I am skeptical their B2 replacement will be anything but super costly

imo they would be better off building something as big as a F15 but with big delta wet wings for unrefuelled radius of 2000km, and internal room for 8x2000lb or dozens of SDB. that ought to cover most of the ops. 4 x stealthy ALCM Internally could also work....you dont need to go all the way in.
Last edited by Singha on 07 Dec 2012 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by SaiK »

one thing they never would say is their projects never failed them.. 'cause it went costly!
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_22539 »

^^I hope the self-flagellating retards who curse and taunt our indigenous programs at the drop of a hat read this one. Then again they seem to have a selective amnesia or mental blocks and promptly forgets any problems with foreign programs. We should post links to these news reports on top of every LCA, AMCA, etc. page. That way, some one can rub it into the faces of these retards without much trouble and hopefully allow some constructive discussions rather than just bellyaching.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Nick_S »

yantra wrote: Lockheed needs more foreign orders to realize volume savings
Canada canceling JSF orders wont help with that.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Feder ... story.html
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Arun Menon wrote:^^I hope the self-flagellating retards who curse and taunt our indigenous programs at the drop of a hat read this one. Then again they seem to have a selective amnesia or mental blocks and promptly forgets any problems with foreign programs. We should post links to these news reports on top of every LCA, AMCA, etc. page. That way, some one can rub it into the faces of these retards without much trouble and hopefully allow some constructive discussions rather than just bellyaching.
Would have appreciated if you could provide some really good information on LCA , AMCA etc that could have created more awareness among people like me rather than using strong words. The issue is not with the thought process behined LCA, AMCA etc, it is more to do with delays and the critical tech that are still required to be imported and now the latest news
"Rs 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets "
http://idrw.org/?p=16496#more-16496
HAL which has made a living out of assembling aircrafts for ever is finding it difficult to setup a production line.

Now people will say shut up it is too technical a thing for you to understand. Fine I accept that but then HAL should have also known this and should have taken corrective measure right at the offset by conducting a strength and weakness test so as to mitigate any delays, considering LCA project is already quite delayed or do they have a don;t care attitude.

And as far as F 35 is concerned, if we read carefully it mentions
yantra wrote:On top of that, the F-35 could be too sophisticated for minor conflicts,
and as far as LCA is concerned we are finding it tough to even reach the 4th gen level . Former IAF chief had said LCA as Mig 21++, hope we reach the 4th gen level with LCA Mk.2
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_22539 »

^^The Mig 21 is of the 3rd generation of fighters if I am not wrong (at least the upgraded ones in the IAF). So a Mig 21++ should be at least a 4.5 gen aircraft. Yet you insist on calling it unsophisticated and obsolete. The funniest thing is that you are ready to take some American corporate at their face value, but are infinitely skeptical about the locals. This is why strong words are needed. This sort of prejudice and pigheadedness has no other reply.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:and as far as LCA is concerned we are finding it tough to even reach the 4th gen level . Former IAF chief had said LCA as Mig 21++, hope we reach the 4th gen level with LCA Mk.2
Forget about what former IAF chief said you tell us why shouldn't LCA be considered a 4th gen fighter aircraft ???
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_22539 »

^^What else other than the fact that it was made by some SDREs. It cant possibly hope to match up to something made by the TFTAs.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Arun Menon wrote:Yet you insist on calling it unsophisticated and obsolete.
Never said it to be unsophisticated and obsolete. When i make an opinion my approach is always with regard to usability of the product as to against which opponent it may be required to fight and how capable it will be against it.
So LCA as a TD is good and ADA has come a long way in w.r.t aircraft technology for the country. But then against which fighter aircrafts do you think that LCA or Mk.2 will hold on its own. For what kind of missions will it be used. My understanding is that it can hold against the JF 17 definitely but if people start suggesting it to be a 4.5 gen aircraft then i would suggest we start comparing it against the Rafale, Typhoon, or for that matter Gripen NG and F 16 block 70.
Please let me know if IAF will use LCA Mk.2 against such aircraft. If yes then its fantastic.
Sagar G wrote:Forget about what former IAF chief said you tell us why shouldn't LCA be considered a 4th gen fighter aircraft ???
Sir I don;t like to live in a state of denial and i always give importance to opinions of people who matters and on that basis I mentioned what the former IAF chief said. But probably you have more understanding than the former IAF chief so where do i stand.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Arun Menon wrote:This is why strong words are needed. This sort of prejudice and pigheadedness has no other reply.
and by the way use of such words makes you think to be more patriotic than lot of us or for that matter a bigger proponent of
high tech Indian product then best of luck.
Please understand that developing an Indian fighter is one thing and having a fighter sending shivers across the enemy air force is another.
Hopefully such a day will come when we have such a fighter developed within the country but it will take time a lot more time, but for that have an objective opinion of our strenghts and weakness and work accordingly with proper synergy across development agency in a mission mode
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:Sir I don;t like to live in a state of denial and i always give importance to opinions of people who matters and on that basis I mentioned what the former IAF chief said. But probably you have more understanding than the former IAF chief so where do i stand.
IAF chief never said that LCA is not a 4th gen aircraft so don't try to hide behind his statement to defend your statement so I ask again, what makes you think that LCA is not a 4th gen aircraft ???
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:IAF chief never said that LCA is not a 4th gen aircraft so don't try to hide behind his statement to defend your statement so I ask again, what makes you think that LCA is not a 4th gen aircraft ???
Sir, do u always asks questions :D or at times provides some good facts to make others change there opinions.
Anyways i don't hide behind anyone's statement or just ask questions.

My understanding is LCA will still take time to reach the level of Gripen which was first flown in 1988 and gripen is considered a 4th gen fighter right. Probably the Mk.2 will be able to resolve all the issues that the current LCA is facing and that is why ADA too is now focussing on Mk.2 version which is fine.
Point is if you consider LCA as a true 4th gen fighter in its current form then Mk.2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter right. In that case Mk.2 will be competing against Rafale etc right. Then all our worries are gone :twisted:
Just to be clear, LCA in its CURRENT form is not mature enough to be considered a 4th gen war fighting machine. It is still in development and hopefully will require the Mk.2 version to be completely up and running with a working production line :wink: to be really counted to be taken to a war and be successful
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:Sir, do u always asks questions :D or at times provides some good facts to make others change there opinions.
Anyways i don't hide behind anyone's statement or just ask questions.
Usually I keep silent but when someone crops up lecturing people who are at much better position than the one lecturing then I feel an itch to test them and that's when I appear, recently many in BRF have given me this opportunity so that's why it seems that I only asks questions and regarding facts remember I gave you the link to a PDF of tech focus feb 2011. As expected you didn't read it but if you did and are still coming here asking whether LCA is a 4th gen aircraft or not then the only thing I can do is :lol:
dhiraj wrote:My understanding is LCA will still take time to reach the level of Gripen which was first flown in 1988 and gripen is considered a 4th gen fighter right.Probably the Mk.2 will be able to resolve all the issues that the current LCA is facing and that is why ADA too is now focussing on Mk.2 version which is fine.
What "all the issues" are you talking about ?? It's an enhancement to mk 1 doesn't mean that the mk1 is crap and nowhere it has been said that the enhancements being done places mk1 out of 4th gen league of it's class.
dhiraj wrote:Point is if you consider LCA as a true 4th gen fighter in its current form then Mk.2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter right. In that case Mk.2 will be competing against Rafale etc right. Then all our worries are gone :twisted:
Why the hell should mk2 compete with Rafale ??? :-?

Both are of different class.

dhiraj wrote:Just to be clear, LCA in its CURRENT form is not mature enough to be considered a 4th gen war fighting machine. It is still in development and hopefully will require the Mk.2 version to be completely up and running with a working production line :wink: to be really counted to be taken to a war and be successful
Just to be clear these are your views IAF has not said anything even remotely to what you are saying they seems to be happy with the performance of mk1 but now want to make it better hence mk2.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:What "all the issues" are you talking about ?? It's an enhancement to mk 1 doesn't mean that the mk1 is crap
Again use of word "crap" where did i mention LCA is a crap. :-?
Sagar G wrote:but when someone crops up lecturing people who are at much better position than the one lecturing then I feel an itch to test them
You must definitely be in a better position , no doubt and congrats for that , wish i was in such a position 8)
but this is what is visible to an outsider

1. Tejas received IOC 1 in january 2011, and now we have a delay of at least a year for FOC.
2. recent news item suggest that Tejas did not fly for 3 months because of some helmet issue
3. New news item suggest delay by HAL in setting up a production line for Tejas

Now please let me know if there are NO issues then why these delays at least have the first 20 fighters up and running
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:Again use of word "crap" where did i mention LCA is a crap. :-?
You seem to indicate that.

dhiraj wrote:You must definitely be in a better position , no doubt and congrats for that , wish i was in such a position 8)
Not at all, people in better position keep writing on this and I read there views instead of assuming things.
dhiraj wrote:but this is what is visible to an outsider

1. Tejas received IOC 1 in january 2011, and now we have a delay of at least a year for FOC.
2. recent news item suggest that Tejas did not fly for 3 months because of some helmet issue
3. New news item suggest delay by HAL in setting up a production line for Tejas

Now please let me know if there are NO issues then why these delays at least have the first 20 fighters up and running
Being visible to outsider doesn't mean that the outsider has the capacity to understand what the problem is and what is visible is very small amount of info which can give rise to speculation and guesses only. I am also pretty angry with this current delay and can't fathom why the hell HAL sat on it's ass instead of upgrading it's production technology. But this doesn't mean that I shall come here whine around and declare LCA a failure or do a Kalmadi to it. Given the complexity and footprint of the programme delays will happen, I have come to accept it.

I didn't say there are no issues but whining here doesn't == engineering solution on the floor, that is a painstaking process and patience, perseverance are going to deliver results. The solution here is not to get the 20 fighters up and running as soon as possible but to do it in a way so that they don't crash down as soon as they are up. Got the point ???
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:The solution here is not to get the 20 fighters up and running as soon as possible but to do it in a way so that they don't crash down as soon as they are up. Got the point ???
So much confidence on HAL right now :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:So much confidence on HAL right now :rotfl: :rotfl:
What I meant is that doing things correctly is important than doing them in haste which can lead to some catastrophic failure later due to some error during manufacturing. Now did you get the point or still some spoon feeding is necessary ???
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:What I meant is that doing things correctly is important than doing them in haste which can lead to some catastrophic failure later due to some error during manufacturing. Now did you get the point or still some spoon feeding is necessary ???
We are waiting :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by jamwal »

LC-130 JATO assisted takeoff

http://i.imgur.com/M7NPZ.jpg
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by kmkraoind »

Brazil air force may buy F-18 jets from US
In the case of the Rafale from the French company Dassault, the 36 aircraft would cost $8.2 billion, while the Boeing F-18s would entail an outlay of $5.4 billion.

According to the magazine, what goes against choosing the Rafale jets aside from its initial price is the fact that an hour’s flight costs some $20,000, compared with $10,000 for the F-18s.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

kmkraoind wrote:Brazil air force may buy F-18 jets from US
Is it a good or a bad news for India ?

Good because Dassault can be forced to share more tech as part of the deal to get the Indian contract

Bad because Dassault may try to maximize its profit from the only available export order that they have

any opinions ?
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

truth is brazil AF will never get either. they have been "deciding" on this deal with each change of govt.

F18 is heavier, and has more powerful engines than Rafale, it is also higher wing loading and perhaps more drag as well.
the engines 414 and M88-3 are at same tech level wrt fuel consumption.

so must be some marketing PPT that one hour on F18 is 50% cheaper vs Rafale. :D
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Singha wrote:so must be some marketing PPT that one hour on F18 is 50% cheaper vs Rafale. :D
a good one... hope people in deaf and dumb forum don't latch on to this and debate this endlessly
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

NoKo successfully launches satellite.

BBC

Xinhua.

Contrast this with yesterday's news
Xinhua yesterday on how it is not being done
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

Funny how the spins put on it are different from each source.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by NRao »

New Mission for a Fast Track
Pentagon's 'Rapid Fielding' of Latest Technologies Will Remain Long After the War

America's involvement in Afghanistan may be winding down, but wartime programs aimed at speeding new equipment into combat zones will remain in operation well beyond the end of the war, according to U.S. defense officials.

The Pentagon in 2009 formally established a "rapid fielding" office to bypass the military-acquisition process, and the office has acquired and deployed a series of technologies to aid the war in Afghanistan, such as camera-laden blimps that watch over remote outposts. Now, officials believe rapid fielding could be critical for developing equipment for countering new high-end military technologies developed by China or in antiterrorism operations.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Austin »

New "Voronezh-M" Early Warning Radar being installed , Range is 6000 km , Operates in Meter Band and Consumes 0.7 MW of power

Photo of EWR center
http://topwar.ru/11480-radiolokacionnay ... rtazh.html
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

F-35 program status in November
Since December 2006, F-35s have flown 3,253 times and accrued more than 5,117 cumulative flight hours
. . .

38 F-35s have been delivered to the Department of Defense
F-35 program status in December
Since December 2006, F-35s have flown 3,543 times and accrued more than 5,556 cumulative flight hours
. . .
41 F-35s have been delivered to the Department of Defense
3 deliveries and 290 test flights in the last month (over 9 a day)
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by NRao »

Do no tknow if this was posted earlier:

Russia To Sell Old Su-30 Fighters To Belarus

The ones that India traded in for the MKIs.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Austin »

U.S. Air Force Declares F-35 Wing ‘Ready to Train’
The U.S. Air Force declared the joint-service pilot training and maintenance wing for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter “ready for training” the first instructor pilots on the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing variant, beginning in January. Next summer, the wing will begin training Navy pilots on the F-35C carrier variant of the fifth-generation fighter.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by siddharth »

Russian long range strategic aviation celebrates 98th anniversary with a public holiday!
Article in Russian.
http://news.mail.ru/politics/11401710/?frommail=1
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_20067 »

Image

Upcoming Sikorosky project for US Army...

based on fastest production chopper X-2

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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

some pics of the paki babur (aka hongniao) test
http://pakmr.blogspot.in/2011/10/pakist ... f-vii.html

unlike the CJ10 which has individual 3 tubes , this one seems to have 3 tubes inside and then a protective shroud around the 3.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Austin »

Unmanned X-47B Completes First Carrier Deck Tests
Northrop Grumman said the exercises demonstrated the ability to maneuver the tailless, fighter-sized UCAS quickly and precisely on the carrier’s flight deck using a wireless handheld controller. The first carrier landings of the X-47B are planned for this summer.

The AV-2 demonstrator began the deck handling tests on November 28, one day after being hoisted onto the Truman. The aircraft performed the first powered flight deck taxi test on December 1 while the carrier was in port and the first taxi at sea on December 9 off the coast of Virginia. During the seagoing phase, the X-47B was maneuvered to the ship’s catapults, taxied over arresting cables and moved up and down elevators between the flight deck and the hangar bay. The testing included communication and telemetry checks, fueling operations and use of the aircraft’s digital engine controls in the presence of electromagnetic fields. “We’ve learned a lot about the environment that we’re in and how compatible the aircraft is with a carrier’s flight deck, hangar bays and communication systems,” said Don Blottenberger, the Navy’s UCAS program manager.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by member_20067 »

Austin wrote:Unmanned X-47B Completes First Carrier Deck Tests
Northrop Grumman said the exercises demonstrated the ability to maneuver the tailless, fighter-sized UCAS quickly and precisely on the carrier’s flight deck using a wireless handheld controller. The first carrier landings of the X-47B are planned for this summer.

The AV-2 demonstrator began the deck handling tests on November 28, one day after being hoisted onto the Truman. The aircraft performed the first powered flight deck taxi test on December 1 while the carrier was in port and the first taxi at sea on December 9 off the coast of Virginia. During the seagoing phase, the X-47B was maneuvered to the ship’s catapults, taxied over arresting cables and moved up and down elevators between the flight deck and the hangar bay. The testing included communication and telemetry checks, fueling operations and use of the aircraft’s digital engine controls in the presence of electromagnetic fields. “We’ve learned a lot about the environment that we’re in and how compatible the aircraft is with a carrier’s flight deck, hangar bays and communication systems,” said Don Blottenberger, the Navy’s UCAS program manager.

Here is the video of the same.. a true glimpse into the future..

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Post by Austin »

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Post by Austin »

Prithwiraj wrote:Here is the video of the same.. a true glimpse into the future..

X-47 will be truly revolutionary taking off from Carrier without risking the pilot and doing mission that would be considered impossible for todays manned fighter or even if its possible would require lots of asset dedicated to it.

Probably in future pilots in cockpit of F-35 would be able to control the X-47 from air directing its mission from stand off distance
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Brando »

^^ That capability already exists, though not direct control (it wouldnt be needed anyway!) , F35 pilots can assign targets to UAVs directly without having to send it through the UAV control. The UAV controller just gets an "update" of new targets and the UAV would automatically navigate and commence attack when in range of the target.
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