PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
adarshp
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 05 Aug 2008 14:19
Location: du weldenwarden

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by adarshp »

SaiK wrote:well, it depends. if you can find him before he finds you, then we can be safe that RCS may not be that much of an important. But, the enemy RCS is so low that you have no chance of finding before you are fired!

RCS is important for BVR.
Sure, that is why it would be important to get to a level of stealth that denies first look on RADAR to deny first shot on BVR. IMHO, PAK-FA is optimized only for that much RADAR stealth. If the F-22 can pick up the PAK-FA on RADAR at 25 nm and PAK-FA can do this against the F-22 only at 10nm then this is an issue. But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.
nrshah
BRFite
Posts: 580
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 16:36

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nrshah »

adarshp wrote: But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.
Still problem is not solved. Not until you have missiles that are can be guided using IRST...

The issue is F 22 detects Pak Fa at 25 Nm, it is in position to shoot. But pak fa until it has got IRST guided missile will not be able to shoot even though it may track it using IRST...

But can IR guided missiles do the job? (R 73/74 - with range of 30/40 Kms).. May be gurus can shed some light?

If this is the case, i wonder what will be the payload configuration of 5th Gen A/c. I mean short range missiles will be more compared to long/medium ranged missiles...
adarshp
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 05 Aug 2008 14:19
Location: du weldenwarden

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by adarshp »

nrshah wrote:
adarshp wrote: But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.
Still problem is not solved. Not until you have missiles that are can be guided using IRST...

The issue is F 22 detects Pak Fa at 25 Nm, it is in position to shoot. But pak fa until it has got IRST guided missile will not be able to shoot even though it may track it using IRST...

But can IR guided missiles do the job? (R 73/74 - with range of 30/40 Kms).. May be gurus can shed some light?

If this is the case, i wonder what will be the payload configuration of 5th Gen A/c. I mean short range missiles will be more compared to long/medium ranged missiles...
IRST sensors have been improving in range only recently, and all work in that area is not done yet. The reason that today's IR guided missiles are short ranged is because of range limitations of todays technology. If you see longer range IRST sensors develop, you will see corresponding missiles developed as well. There is nothing which stops or inhibits this change.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Isnt Russia + India interested in f-35 type aircraft?
Interested in F-22 + F-35 + more.

And over time I feel it is possible.

We have to realize that this stealth to some extent is pure math and the Russians pioneered that aspect of it (no one in USSR believed the guy who did it, but that is a diff matter) - the point is that RU has top notch techies. However, they lack a) the unending funds (that the US seems to have) - certainly state funding and b) due to the lack of funding in the 90s they have also certainly fallen way behind in terms of areas like metallurgy, etc, suppliers (no funds to keep them afloat), proper supply chains (that keep cost low), etc. (The vertical stuff of F-22 is FROM Russian consultants!!!!!!!!)

I feel what the PAK-FA represents is a pure baseline technology demonstrator. We can expect some changes to this machine with an engine that produces 2 more Ts of thrust (that is about 13% more thrust!!!!) things could change - inlet, wings ................... why not?

The FGFA with two seats will need a diff wing - change. Perhaps even in shape?

JMTs.
KrishG
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 1290
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 20:43
Location: Land of Trala-la

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by KrishG »

Isnt Russia + India interested in f-35 type aircraft?
Russia - MiG LMFS
India - MCA
Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

A speculation rendering of FGFA:
Image
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA

Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Sanku »

Why are we so sure that India has no role to play in Pak-Fa so far, given the enthu that the Russians are showing in terms of talking about Indian partners, it does not appear that they are playing nice to the next level of funding alone.

What if GoI already paid 25% of the money spent by Su on this?

Where would that figure show up (which official document)? Could it be kept hidden? Under scores of returned funds etc?

I think there has to be more than meets the eye -- remember Indians talking warmly about Russians at Arihant launch, we did not think it was for future work alone, why not here too?
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

TOI states that when Putin visits India this March three deals will be sealed

FGFA/PAK-FA Co-development
MTA Transport Aircraft
24 Mig-29K

What is this F-22C ?
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Rahul M »

Where would that figure show up (which official document)? Could it be kept hidden?
yes, the Indo-Russian intergovernmental agreement allows both sides not to disclose specifics of military relations.
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by anupmisra »

Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
From the above, India's role:
India was engaged early in the PAK-FA development effort, but Russian sources suggest that negotiations on the work share between HAL and Sukhoi/KnAAPO were protracted. Open sources suggest that India is responsible for 25% of the development of the PAK-FA, primarily in software and systems integration, areas where India has recent experience via the Su-30MKI program. India is to also contribute in composite materials, with claims the PAK-FA structure is, by total aircraft weight, rather than just the airframe structural weight, some 25% titanium alloys, and 20% composites. Indian sources suggest that both single and dual seat variants will be built for India.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Given the "Indian"-Sukhoi relationship, which goes back to the early 90s, there is a very, very good chance that the PAK-FA has some "Indian" "input" - indirectly.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Russia, India to sign 5th-generation fighter deal in March
"We expect a contract on the first stage of design, specifically the development of a technical design concept, to be signed in late February-early March," Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, said.

He added that Russia and India were currently "at an active phase of negotiations" on manufacturing fifth-generation fighters.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

Well right now the PAK-FA do not seem to have any Indian input as the contract for the first stage of design will be signed in March and most likely this design will be a twin seater FGFA.

But in years ahead we will see significant input to FGFA/PAK-FA from Indian side,Composites usage in fighter aircraft seem to be an area where the Indians are fairly advanced compared to russia , EW/ESM is another where we have leapt ahead
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

I want our participation in weapons integration as we have quite a challenge here perhaps to integrate many western missiles and our own along with other variants.

DRDO can also participate in using home grown super computing power here.
Pratik_S
BRFite
Posts: 325
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 21:19
Location: In the Lion's Den
Contact:

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

Currently its not know what softwares and amount of composites the the first prototype uses, considering the fact that lots of things have been omitted on the prototype which were not needed I suspect it uses the older Su-35 avionics and no composites. So there is no other area I know of in which India can help.
Carl_T
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2533
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 02:37
Location: anandasya sagare

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA

Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Are these APA guys reliable/knowledgeable?
adarshp
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 05 Aug 2008 14:19
Location: du weldenwarden

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by adarshp »

^^

Not always in terms of analysis. Cry wolf too early IMHO. References and arguments are useful to arrive at your own conclusions.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Cain Marko »

Carl_T wrote:
Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released

Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA

Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Are these APA guys reliable/knowledgeable?
In terms of technical comments, I'd think they are well qualified. Of course, you have to ignore the political angle.

CM.
Carl_T
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2533
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 02:37
Location: anandasya sagare

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

Yeah I was curious because everything on that website leads to: "buy more F-22s!"
Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Craig Alpert »

THIRD FLIGHT OF PAK-FA
The third test flight of a new fifth-generation fighter was on Monday, February 15, at the aerodrome of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association. This is the Interfax news agency quoted a source in the
military-industrial complex.
more on this from Key-pubs!
Source: newspaper "Sight"
Author: Maria Ivanova
18:25 Published: 15/02/2010, 18:25

Fifth-generation fighter once again rose into the air

In Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association airfield, which is part of holding "Dry", the third flew in the latest fifth-generation fighter. Prospective complex tactical aviation safety program implemented in full and without comment. After a few more tests in the Far East, the aircraft will go to Moscow, and fighting application will work out in the Volga region.

In the Far East in KnAAPO Dzemgi continuing flight testing Russia's new fighter aircraft - a promising front-line aviation complex aircraft (PAK FA) T-50.

"On Saturday in Komsomolsk-on-Amur hosted the third flight of the fighter. The flight program fully implemented. All units and aircraft systems worked without any problems", - told a source in the military-industrial complex.

He clarified that the first flight of the fighter was held two weeks ago, on January 29, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. And he and the second flight lasted about an hour. At the second test flight of the fighter has already gone in the "new look" - it was painted in the colors of the Air Force Russia - gray and white camouflage broken."From the looks of this car in the air even more swift and terrible," - noted then source in the military-industrial complex.

In the future PAK FA is waiting for a few more test flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, then the plane moves to Zhukovsky near Moscow in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, which will have the bulk of flight tests.

Tests fighter for combat application also will be held at the State flight test center of the Defense Ministry in Akhtubinsk (Astrakhan region).

Recall, February 11, Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia Nikolay Makarov said that Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft will have "almost human intelligence," and the price will be cheaper than the American counterpart. Also, according to him, the fighter "has a number of other advantages.

Newspaper, which sought to find out how arranged Russia's newest fighter aircraft, has already stated that Russia's new aircraft for at least the first stage will be equipped with radar N050 (improved version of the Radar Irbis-E Su-35) of millimeter waves. Besides the main airborne radar aircraft is equipped with an additional radar centimeter. Application of additional radars, spaced from both the primary position and in the frequency range, will not only increase the noise immunity and combat survivability design, but also significantly reduce the visibility of technology neutralizes the enemy planes.

According to some foreign experts, the PAK FA will be equipped with the new optical-location station OLS-50M, which would gain an advantage in detecting stealth air targets and can become the primary sensor in a dogfight with the F-22 and F-35.

Among the requirements for flight performance indicates supersonic speed in cruising flight, with the besforsazhnom mode engines.

T-50 also has the maneuverability at subsonic speeds and increased maneuverability at supersonic.This affected the aerodynamics of the aircraft, equipped with very complex with lots of wing thrust surfaces, allowing to maintain control of supercritical regimes.

As experts, characterized PAK FA will be multi-functionality (ability to solve problems defeat both air and ground targets in all weather and time of day), maneuverability, low visibility in the optical, infrared and radio wavelengths, supersonic cruising flight mode, the ability to fly and land, using land runways 300-400 meters.

In general, evaluating the test results, honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan, piloted the plane, said: "During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. It is working well in all stages of our intended flight program. They are easily and comfortably manage.

The general director of company "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan in circulated a press statement said that "the plans of the company" Sukhoi "and is further developing the program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners."

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who described the first flight of the fighter as "a nice event," promised that "in 2013 should do the first batch (PAK FA) in the Armed Forces, and in 2015 already begin serial purchases.

In turn, the head of the Defense Ministry Anatoly Serdyukov has expressed hope that all the time to supply the first batch of aircraft will be met.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Philip »

Some snippets.
http://rt.com/prime-time/2010-02-11/alm ... e-jet.html
"Almost human intelligence" capability ,touted in the report.
Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Craig Alpert »

Cross Post from Key Pubs!
Forgive me if this was already written. T-50-1 "disassembled" for improvements, flights will not be until April.
info from nemetc - worker from KnAAPO
.
Added later: According to latest updates, it has been DISMANTELED for TRANSPORTATION to Moscow!!!
narayana
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 12:01

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by narayana »

All is not well if we believe forceindia

....................
Russia is now insisting that it would sign the fifth generation aircraft contract in stages and not as one whole.the dubious intent behind this is obvious as work progresses on project,Russians will hike their demand
please go to page 6 and zoom to read
Last edited by Rahul M on 17 Feb 2010 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: please do not post force mag content.
SivaVijay
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 19:23

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SivaVijay »

^^^ How can tht be, if it is joint dev then we share work load and expenses and that will be agreed and signed upfront, even if a hike is there in the prj cost won't that be shared :evil: ? I believe it is JV and not ToT.......
bodhi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 83
Joined: 02 Dec 2009 09:25

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by bodhi »

Thanks for posting the link
SivaVijay
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 19:23

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SivaVijay »

from the article: "If whispers are true India has other options for fifth gen aircraft"
JSF/MCA?
rohiths
BRFite
Posts: 404
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 21:51

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by rohiths »

Russia has no option but to sell the planes to India.
I don't think there will be any arm twisting. India has significant bargaining power in this case.
The various contracting stages may be due to some accounting and other finance related stuff.
Who else is interested/capable of buying a large number of 5th gen aircraft except India? Gorshkov was a special case due to several factors.
The only thing stopping the beauty from being part of IAF is the infinite wisdom of our babus and politicians.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

PS is whining for not getting his share of lifafa from Rosbornexport , this piece of news should have given the right message to RB and the lifafa should soon reach his desk :wink:
bart
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 21:33

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by bart »

"Almost human intelligence"

Hope that does not equate to Paki intelligence :oops:
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by krishnan »

paki != humans
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

PAK-FA-K version for IN?
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Philip »

The Latest AWST says that India will buy at least 250 of the same.However,western analysts speculate that achieving the 2015-2017 deadline for service induction might pose a challenge with regard to engines and radar devlopment.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Any estimates of cost out so far?
Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -next.html
The cost of developing the FGFA, which would be shared between both countries, will be US $8-10 billion (Rs 37,000-45,000 crores). Over and above that, say IAF and MoD sources, each FGFA will cost Rs 400-500 crores.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

^^^ Comparing the cost of MKI where each costs 150 crores , the cost of each FGFA @ 400 - 500 crores is phenomenal :shock:

Philip the GaA AESA radar should be ready by 2015 ,that should be available to retrofit MKI as well , but new 5th gen engine will have challenges to be met and may take more time.

Not sure if they would like to get GaN AESA ready by 2017 for production run of PAK-FA ,they are also working on GaN T/R module for AESA based on some literature i came across some time back.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nachiket »

Austinji, Rs. 400 crores comes to around $80 million right? That is still less than the Rafale and Typhoon. It is extremely cheap for a 5th gen fighter. I am confused as to why you call the cost phenomenal.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

GaA AESA radar should be ready by 2015
"ready" as in? "Operational"?
nrshah
BRFite
Posts: 580
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 16:36

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by nrshah »

Austin wrote:^^^ Comparing the cost of MKI where each costs 150 crores , the cost of each FGFA @ 400 - 500 crores is phenomenal :shock:
I dont think price of MKI is only 150 crores. At today rate that is just 32mn USD. If actually it is 32Mn USD, MMRCA does not make any sense considering the higher operational cost of heavy fighter is well compensated by significantly lower acquisition cost (compared the same with cost of MMRCA the lowest of which is 50 MN USD for Grip/F16/Mig 35 and for Rafale/F 18/Euro it is well over 75% and Price of NLCA is same - 900 cores infused by navy for 6 NLCA) Thus initial acquisition cost is only 60%/40% of MMRCA.

Ofcourse the savings in logistic, common weapons, and cost of inducting a new fighter - Training and infrastructure are additional
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

nachiket wrote:Austinji, Rs. 400 crores comes to around $80 million right? That is still less than the Rafale and Typhoon. It is extremely cheap for a 5th gen fighter. I am confused as to why you call the cost phenomenal.
No I am just wondering if a single 5th gen figher costs 400 - 500 Cr then its really very expensive bird compare that to how much we spend on vital needs of social sector.
It amazes me for a country with so much of poverty that one can sees daily on street we can actually afford a 500 Cr for single fighter.

NRao GaN module is something they are researching into right now , I am just wondering if by 2018 they can build a test prototype of AESA based on GaN T/R module.
Post Reply