PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Singha
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Singha »

the RVV-BD is the replacement for the R33(AA9) and must be one of biggest AAMs around at a hefty 500kg. in return you get 200km range.

the -MD and -SD are the next evolution of the R73 and R77 per wiki.

all in all, PAKFA will be a 4-legged cheetah from IOC itself with a full suite of weapons.

but real issue is how many and what mix of weapons will go in the internal bays....so far no internal pix of the bays
Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:the RVV-BD is the replacement for the R33(AA9) and must be one of biggest AAMs around at a hefty 500kg. in return you get 200km range.
RVV-BD is the export derivative of R-37M the export model is unfortunately restricted to 200 km but the R-37 in early 90's intercepted a target out to 280 km when fired from Mig-31 and later a R-37M variant was being worked on.

Use your friendly translator

http://www.missiles.ru/RVV-BD.htm
but real issue is how many and what mix of weapons will go in the internal bays....so far no internal pix of the bays
Million dollar question but the FAQ posted in previous page should help in some way.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Sancho »

Singha wrote: but real issue is how many and what mix of weapons will go in the internal bays....so far no internal pix of the bays [/b]
Russian fifth-generation jet fighter takes off

...The T-50 is operated by a single pilot. The machine has a maximum speed of 2,600 kilometres per hour. Its ferry range is 4,300 kilometres at altitudes of up to 20 kilometres. With a maximum takeoff weight of 37 tons, the fighter is capable of carrying up to 10 tons of armaments, including the GSh-30-1 30 mm cannon, guided missiles of various types and ranges, as well as precision guided bombs. Up to eight external and ten internal suspension points can be installed to attach armaments. More than ten innovative types of weapons have been developed for the PAK FA...
http://indrus.in/articles/2013/01/11/ru ... 21557.html


If true, it will be similar to this graphic:

Image
SaiK
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

Just awesome, I like the air intakes schematics.
Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

The 10 Internal Payload and 8 External one and the graphics are just Fanboys assesment.

Sukhoi has not gone public with its payload configuration so no use speculating.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:Just awesome, I like the air intakes schematics.
Unfortunately, that schematic is wrong. The schematic assumes that the engines of PAKFA are aligned to the longitudinal axis which is not the case in both the horizontal and vertical direction.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

has pak-fa reached 65k ft level tests?

ref: certain restrictions on raptor to currently at 44k ft:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... se-373144/
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

From IAF interview to Force magazine on FGFA
What is the update on FGFA: numbers and specifications sought, and expected delivery year?

The FGFA is a stealth fighter being jointly developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Sukhoi Design Bureau, Russia. We are presently in the negotiations stage for the R&D phase. The design specifications of the FGFA include super manoeuvrability, super cruise, low observability, sensor fusion, centralised information management, AESA radar and an internal weapon carriage capability. The first prototype is likely to be delivered in 2014 followed by two more in 2016 and 2017. However, the series production of aircraft is likely to start only in 2022.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Philip »

The last info was that the number was being cut down by 1/3rd,as the two-seat version-which the IAF wanted earlier, was being dropped,as doubts were there whether we (HAL,etc.) could develop the same in the short time required.So approx 240 of the FGFA will probably be built.If the IAF is to eventually have a combat size of around 1000 aircraft,240,Flankers/Super Flankers,240 FGFAs,200 LCAs ,120--180 Rafales and another 120+ of assorted upgraded Mirages/Jags,/MIG-29s etc.,with thre AMCA also coming on stream at sometime replacing the upgraded legacy fighters,a figure of 1000+ combat aircraft is not unachievable.Add to this a healthy number of UCAVs and the IAF will be a very potent force able to deal with both China and Pak.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Bharadwaj »

Philip wrote:The last info was that the number was being cut down by 1/3rd,as the two-seat version-which the IAF wanted earlier, was being dropped,as doubts were there whether we (HAL,etc.) could develop the same in the short time required.So approx 240 of the FGFA will probably be built.If the IAF is to eventually have a combat size of around 1000 aircraft,240,Flankers/Super Flankers,240 FGFAs,200 LCAs ,120--180 Rafales and another 120+ of assorted upgraded Mirages/Jags,/MIG-29s etc.,with thre AMCA also coming on stream at sometime replacing the upgraded legacy fighters,a figure of 1000+ combat aircraft is not unachievable.Add to this a healthy number of UCAVs and the IAF will be a very potent force able to deal with both China and Pak.
There's also the ddm wet dream favorite- the one with the golf ball size rcs :rotfl:
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

The IAF Chief had earlier mentioned that they would procure 215 FGFA and it will be single seater
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^^ Later we'll be buying more and more like regular orders MKIs of +40 every few years, I think we'll end up with 300+ finally. 8)
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^ Later we'll be buying more and more like regular orders MKIs of +40 every few years, I think we'll end up with 300+ finally. 8)
It would not be like a MKI order, we would just be manufacturing FGFA (or what ever it ends being called) as and when there is a requirement (and MoD and MoF and CCS gives its blessings) and HAL would take up manufacturing these in a couple of years... more like AAC ordering Druvs now!!!
I think we might also order couple of SQ of SU-34 in the meantime... our UAV fleet would also touch 1K by then...
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by nits »

Some Queries which Gurus can answer...

Q) When India is funding 50% of FGFA; does India own this fighter like the Euro Consortium what does it mean is
a) India and Russia jointly decided to whom they can sell this Aircraft and whom not to
b) Profit from Sales will be distributed between India and Russia

Not sure if this is discussed on this thread - if yes please point me to the same...
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

nits wrote:Q) When India is funding 50% of FGFA; does India own this fighter like the Euro Consortium what does it mean is
FGFA is joint R&D between India and Russia similar to Brahmos Model where both sides fund equally and own their respective IP's to it.
a) India and Russia jointly decided to whom they can sell this Aircraft and whom not to
Yes
b) Profit from Sales will be distributed between India and Russia
Yes
tushar_m

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by tushar_m »

just a feeling that india will pursue the FGFA even if we get single seater PAK-FA ,

hal & DRDO has shown in last few months(years) their capability & willingness to pursue different projects.

FGFA will not be a DUD project & tech learn will be utilized in AMCA , maybe some (smaller) version of 117 will find its way to AMCA
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

This is rather confusing. The original number was 214, distributed between single and double seats (the very first one was all two seaters). Then in Oct 2012 it went down to 144 single seaters. Has the number gone up again? And, if so when did it go up? TIA.
nits wrote:Some Queries which Gurus can answer...

Q) When India is funding 50% of FGFA; does India own this fighter like the Euro Consortium what does it mean is
a) India and Russia jointly decided to whom they can sell this Aircraft and whom not to
b) Profit from Sales will be distributed between India and Russia

Not sure if this is discussed on this thread - if yes please point me to the same...
FGFA, actually it is now PMF (no longer FGFA) is a joint Indo-Russo effort.

PAK-FA is not.

However, Indian thinking is to manufacture the PMF entirely within India. Not sure what that means - certainly some components will need to be based outside.

Also, Russia has projected a boat load of potential sales for the PAk-FA, so I am not sure what repercussions that will have on Indian "sales" to another nation. Not even sure if anyone has gone that far yet.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

I hope these logistics are resolved quicker than later. Else, it would be another big mess up between India-Russia joint projects.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

duh! cant he taken a front view? anyone going to AERO INDIA 2013, could you please take some good shots of the FGFA model

thanks


Image

I don't see any structural difference between FGFA and PAKFA. Now what is this model all about from HAL?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Bharadwaj »

SaiK wrote:duh! cant he taken a front view? anyone going to AERO INDIA 2013, could you please take some good shots of the FGFA model

thanks




I don't see any structural difference between FGFA and PAKFA. Now what is this model all about from HAL?

There's a front view on Aroor's blog but the snaps are strictly mobile phone quality.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by RamaY »

SaiK wrote:duh! cant he taken a front view? anyone going to AERO INDIA 2013, could you please take some good shots of the FGFA model

thanks


Image

I don't see any structural difference between FGFA and PAKFA. Now what is this model all about from HAL?
Question.. is the flag on the tail... is the color order correct?
Indranil
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

yes
Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Take Off Magazine AeroIndia special edition has details on Radar development for PMF/MKI and PAK-FA development

Download PDF from link below

Take-off magazine February 2013
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

I don't see any structural difference between FGFA and PAKFA. Now what is this model all about from HAL?
You should not find any diff - the main reason why India went from two to single seater. Perhaps if and when a new engine arrives.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Singha »

Austin wrote:Take Off Magazine AeroIndia special edition has details on Radar development for PMF/MKI and PAK-FA development

Download PDF from link below

Take-off magazine February 2013
lots of fascinating news incl 40 HAL engr finally going to Rus for MTA , that wing range kit and ofcourse the huge pakfa radar. anyone with sharp eyes care to count how many modules it has? :D
sounds like no irbis for MKI MLU is confirmed and it will instead gain a adapted pakfa radar.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by srin »

It looks increasingly certain now that the FGFA is just PAK-FA MKI, with same physical structure and sensors but different avionics.

That is a far cry from being a "joint producer" - I suppose it was too far-fetched all along, we just aren't there yet.

The only hope is that the learnings will somehow go towards our own AMCA.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

TsAGI and PAK-FA! (English subtitles) [ updated as of 2010 ]


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by shiv »

SaiK wrote:duh! cant he taken a front view? anyone going to AERO INDIA 2013, could you please take some good shots of the FGFA model
OK. But the model was placed above eye level
Image
Image
Image
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by shiv »

FGFA
Image

Image
Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Nice Pics Shiv Thanks.

Most certainly AMCA has Diamond Shaped Wings , What flying qualities do diamond shape wing bring to an aircraft ?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Singha »

A very high top speed
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

what about the possible vortex between the trailing wing edge and the rear horizontal stabs? would it not incur a drag? unless it is a precision plane. pak-fa blend is classic and addresses the issues.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

(The last two pics, are they AMCA pics?)

I see a very distincy change in the spine of the PMF. It is not even close to that of the PAK-FA:

Image
Image
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Spine for PAK-FA has changed for eg the one below is for Spin and High AOA test and deploys chutes

Image
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Austin wrote:TsAGI and PAK-FA! (English subtitles) [ updated as of 2010 ]


According to the video , It quotes putin saying , Competition for PAK-FA was won by Sukhoi in 2002 a model of PAK-FA was shown to putin in 2004 then in early Jan 2010 first prototype flew ...estimated completion of flight test program is around 2015-16 with early production starting including 10 prototypes.

So it took 2 years for SBD to refine the PAK-FA design , 5 Years to build a prototype and says 6 years for flight test program. ...so estimated 13 years from design to initial production !
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by srai »

^^^

Russians do their new aircraft induction process differently than the West. When inducted, the initial version will most likely be "IOC" equivalent with limited capability.
Last edited by srai on 11 Feb 2013 08:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

in which way ?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vina »

Austin wrote:Most certainly AMCA has Diamond Shaped Wings , What flying qualities do diamond shape wing bring to an aircraft ?
Diamond shaped wings will increase the - As* Pecked ..oops Aspect Ratio , which in turn will increase aerodynamic efficiency by increasing Lift to Drag (lower induced drag than over a lower aspect wing), giving higher range ityadi. Ask Unkal Googal about Breguet Range Equation for example.

Deltas have advantages of high structural efficiency (thanks to the big long wing root) and can have enough depth to put in fuel and undercarriage etc , but have low a*s pecked ratio . A conventional wing will have a higher aspect ratio, but will be thinner, structurally less efficient and not easy to put in fuel and stow the undercarriage.

Diamond is a way to preserve all the advantages of a Delta (big and long wing root) can be thick and at the same time, can have better a*s pecked ratios than deltas.
Singha wrote:A very high top speed
That is a function of wing sweep back angle /forebody interaction and of course air inlets (variable geometry )
Austin wrote:in which way ?
Think of it as a Delta with better aspect ratio.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

srai wrote:^^^

Russians do their new aircraft induction process differently than the West. When inducted, the initial version will most likely be "IOC" equivalent with limited capability.
All Modern fighter go through those process ,look at eurofighter or F-22 capability build up is gradual ...the russians will do the same no different then the rest .....you call that IOC or FOC .....RF MOD lays the specs and Sukhoi has too meet those .,then MOD verifies it via state testing and sees all criterial laid of induction are met ...it it does they induct if it doesnt Sukhoi fine tunes it and then its tested for induction.....if its trivial issue then its inducted and solved ...no different then how its done ROW.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Thanks Vina , yes for AMCA Top Speed I was thinking of Variable intakes for engine seems like AMCA will have fixed intakes limiting to top speed of below Mach 2
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