PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Kanson
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Kanson »

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... .html#more
Rough english translation
It is also likely that in 2012 the program will begin a new light fighter to replace the MiG-29, which absorbs the new technology brought and tested at the prototype T-50. It is possible that the development of new fighter will be conducted KB RSK MiG, combined with that of "Sukhoi" under the overall leadership of Mikhail Pogosyan, both located at the head of military aircraft of the KLA.
given credence to the discussion we had before here.
Indian version is quite different ( i guess its like F-35 and russian one is like F-22) so it takes quite a time to bring up the Indian one
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Singha »

hope it doesn't get to have human feelings and emotions.

remember the EDI - extreme deep invader plane? it went into a sulky and confused state but
redeemed itself in the end. its the future...
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Avinash R »

Russian fifth generation fighter makes second flight
February 12, 2010

Moscow: Within a span of days, Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft developed by Sukhoi corporation under its highly secret PAK FA project on Friday made its second successful flight in the country's far east.

The flight carried out from the KNAAPO plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur lasted 57-minutes, ten minutes longer than its maiden flight on January 29 and the fighter was painted in the combat colours of the Russian air force, according to Interfax.


This time also it was piloted by test-pilot Sergei Bogdan, who expressed satisfaction at the performance of the aircraft to be inducted by the Russian Air Force in 2015.

Indian Air Force, which would acquire 50 single-seater fighters of the Russian version, would induct another 200 two-seater fighters beginning from 2016, according to reports.

Under the 2007 intergovernmental agreement Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been identified as the nodal agency in the project and a commercial deal on setting a JV is expected to be finalised during Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's visit in mid-March.

Yesterday, Chief of the Russian General Staff, Army General Nikolai Makarov said the new fighter, in which India is a partner, would be superior to the US F-22 Raptor- the only flying fifth generation fighter.

"It would have an artificial intellect, almost at the level of human intellect," General Makarov was quoted as saying by agencies.

After few more test flights, T-50 would be moved to Flight Trail Institute at Zhukovski near Moscow for further trails and certification.

Weapons firing trails would be carried out at Akhtuba range in south Russian region of Astrakhan, before it is transferred the centre of the air force in Lipetsk in 2013 for evolving the combat manuals.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Craig Alpert »

Kanson wrote:http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... .html#more
Rough english translation
It is also likely that in 2012 the program will begin a new light fighter to replace the MiG-29, which absorbs the new technology brought and tested at the prototype T-50. It is possible that the development of new fighter will be conducted KB RSK MiG, combined with that of "Sukhoi" under the overall leadership of Mikhail Pogosyan, both located at the head of military aircraft of the KLA.
given credence to the discussion we had before here.
Indian version is quite different ( i guess its like F-35 and russian one is like F-22) so it takes quite a time to bring up the Indian one
NO. These are 2 seperate/unparallel birds. Indian is building the MCA(NGFA) which can be termed as the F-35 equivalevent minus the vertical takeoff/landing. The Indian/Russian JV will be FGFA which is still related to F-22 abeit with a dual seater, and some Indian/Isralei/French/Russian Indegenious avoinics.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by karan_mc »

Russian fifth generation fighter makes 2nd flight


BY : TIMES NOW

Within a span of days, Russia’s fifth generation fighter aircraft developed by Sukhoi Corporation under its highly secret PAK FA project on Friday (February 12) made its second successful flight in the country’s Far East. The flight carried out from the KNAAPO plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur lasted 57-minutes, ten minutes longer than its maiden flight on January 29 and the fighter was painted in the combat colours of the Russian air force, according to Interfax.

This time also it was piloted by test-pilot Sergei Bogdan, who expressed satisfaction at the performance of the aircraft to be inducted by the Russian Air Force in 2015. Indian Air Force, which would acquire 50 single-seater fighters of the Russian version, would induct another 200 two-seater fighters beginning from 2016, according to reports. Under the 2007 intergovernmental agreement Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been identified as the nodal agency in the project and a commercial deal on setting a JV is expected to be finalised during Prime Minister Vladimir Putin’s visit in mid-March.

Yesterday, Chief of the Russian General Staff, Army General Nikolai Makarov said the new fighter, in which India is a partner, would be superior to the US F-22 Raptor- the only flying fifth generation fighter. “It would have an artificial intellect, almost at the level of human intellect,” General Makarov was quoted as saying by agencies. After few more test flights, T-50 would be moved to Flight Trail Institute at Zhukovski near Moscow for further trails and certification. Weapons firing trails would be carried out at Akhtuba range in south Russian region of Astrakhan, before it is transferred the centre of the air force in Lipetsk in 2013 for evolving the combat manuals.

http://idrw.org/?p=490#more-490
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Nayak »

Russia's T-50 Shows New Face and Human Intelligence

http://newsfromrussia.com/russia/econom ... n_pak_fa-0

“The flight continued for 57 minutes; all systems of the aircraft functioned properly,” a source at the Russian defense complex told Interfax. The new plane has a new look now, the official added.

“Several days ago the plane was painted in gray and white camouflage colors of the Russian Air Force. The new colors made the aircraft look more menacing in the air,” the official said.

The main distinction of the aircraft is the computer analysis of all information. A pilot receives the results of the analysis in the form of prompt messages, GZT.ru wrote.

The exploitation of the new plane will be cheaper in comparison with its predecessors. For example, the cost of one hour of exploitation of Su-27 (4th generation) makes up $10,000. The price for the same time of exploitation of T-50 is expected to be reduced to $1,500.

Nikolai Makarov, Russian armed forces chief of staff, said that Sukhoi’s T-50 would have several advantages over its US rival – F-22 Raptor.

“First and foremost, it goes about high, nearly human intelligence,” Makarov said.

In addition, T-50 will be a lot cheaper than the US analogue, although the price has not been exposed yet, Makarov said.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Nayak »

Russian fifth generation fighter makes 2nd flight

http://www.timesnow.tv/Russian-fifth-ge ... 338365.cms

After few more test flights, T-50 would be moved to Flight Trail Institute at Zhukovski near Moscow for further trails and certification. Weapons firing trails would be carried out at Akhtuba range in south Russian region of Astrakhan, before it is transferred the centre of the air force in Lipetsk in 2013 for evolving the combat manuals.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Nayak »

Russia’s New T-50 Super-fighter Wannabe

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35578

This last point is also a departure from making any serious comparisons between the F-22 and this new Russo-Indian fighter collaboration. Congress has repeatedly been unwilling to make the F-22 available to our allies and the international market. Having done so early would have provided the opportunity to have benefited from more aircraft overall and the larger quantity would have driven down the unit cost. Lower unit cost would have made the F-22 more attractive for foreign military sales, and well you see where this goes. But, but that option is closed, and we are where we are.

The Russo-Indian collaboration is curious in another way. Though I’m sure there has been international collaboration by the Russians in other weapon systems, front-line fighters have not been as prominent examples of technology sharing. The T-50 as a front line fighter to be placed in the Russian (and Indian) fighter arsenals suggests strongly that the Russians recognize that there are in Indian aerospace technology advances missing in their own. Though we have known for some time that India’s aerospace industry has not been sitting on their hands watching others develop advanced technology, this teaming arrangement should prompt the U.S. to be much more vigilant about what is going on in “the world's largest” democracy.

Mr. Patterson is the Executive Director, National Defense Business Institute in the College of Business Administration at the University of Tennessee, and until June of last year served in the Bush Administration as the Principal Deputy Under Secretary of Defense, Comptroller.
Finally a show of respect. Unkil understands only the language of violence mayhem and threats.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

A post from KeyPublishing...there is no link in the support....!

1. about air intakes, the latest version of Paralia: "And here is the S-shaped and one hundred percent screening of the compressor. By the way the hatch over the channel is also involved, may well replace the mechanical adjustment."

2. Fuel system T-50

Tank number 1 1.11 x 0.99 x 2.6 = 1.42
Tank number 2 1.48 x 2.28 x 12.3 = 3.46
Tank number 3 1.02 x 0.96 x 8.38 = 2.02
Tank number 4 1.51 x 0.54 x 5.98 = 1.7
Tank number 5 (1,0 x 0,31 x 3,17) x 2 = 2 (beam)
Tank number 6 (0,55 x 0,8 x 6,58) x 2 = 5.8 (wing)

Volume of tanks 1.42 + 3.46 + 2.02 + 1.7 + 2 + 5.8 = 16.4
Weight of fuel 16,4 x 0.785 = 12,900 kg


3. Empty weight 18500 kg, the engine ed. 129 2 x 18500 kg.

Weight normal number 1 (60% fuel)
18500 (blank) + 100 (pilot) + 7500 kg (fuel) + 2490 kg (10 SD) = 28590 kg
Wing loading 275 kg / sq.m, Thrust 1.29 kg / kg

18500 (blank) + 100 (pilot) + 7500 kg (fuel) + 3070 kg (12 SD) = 29170 kg
Wing loading 280 kg / sq.m, Thrust 1.27 kg / kg

Weight normal number 2 (100% fuel)
18500 (blank) + 100 (pilot) + 12900 kg (fuel) + 2490 kg (10 SD) = 33990 kg
Wing loading 327 kg / sq.m, Thrust 1.09 kg / kg

18500 (blank) + 100 (pilot) + 12900 kg (fuel) + 3070 kg (12 SD) = 34570 kg
Wing loading 332 kg / sq.m, Thrust 1.07 kg / kg

Maximum Weight
18500 (blank) + 100 (pilot) + 7500 kg (fuel) + 8000 kg (16 AB-500) + 1600 kg (8 DB) + 760 kg (4 SD-SD) + 400 kg (4 CRA) + 170 kg ( SD MD) = 37030 kg
Wing loading 356 kg / sq.m, thrust-weight ratio 1.0 kg / kg


AB-500-air bombs
SD-DB-driven long-range missile
SD SD-guided medium-range missiles
SD-MD-guided short-range missiles
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Venu »

Now that PAK-FA has completed second test flight, me thinks its about time to rename this thread to 'PAK-FA Thread - Test flights'
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by VijayKumarSinha »

Venu wrote:Now that PAK-FA has completed second test flight, me thinks its about time to rename this thread to 'PAK-FA Thread - Test flights'
Nayak wrote: Russian fifth generation fighter makes 2nd flight

http://www.timesnow.tv/Russian-fifth-ge ... 338365.cms
Is there footage or photographs of the 2nd flight, like we had for the 1st one?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Aditya_V »

Nayak did you notice this comment in the link you posted it is a GEM
Also, culturally, he identifies with the 3rd world - any who are not caucasian, not English speaking, not Christian.
This comment itself shows the ideology the world has been following since 1750.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Samay »

Nayak wrote:
Finally a show of respect. Unkil understands only the language of violence mayhem and threats.
Right, they are so happy after designing this Image
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Austin »

^^^ What is that FOAB ?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

I have two questions
1. Will India have a say in foreign sale of this bird ?
2. Has India transferred its share of development cost to Russia ?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

smpratik wrote:I have two questions
1. Will India have a say in foreign sale of this bird ?
2. Has India transferred its share of development cost to Russia ?
Yes, India will have its say.....no news has yet been publishing or smelled with an essence of India transferring its share of development cost !

You can just refer to the link posted in the week of flight test.....!
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

Can anyone get it translated....Igorr Sir?

Image
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Vince »

Lots of info in this link...

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.htm ... D=14819433

Lot of stuff being said about the F-22 Raptor.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

sumshyam wrote:
smpratik wrote:I have two questions
1. Will India have a say in foreign sale of this bird ?
2. Has India transferred its share of development cost to Russia ?
Yes, India will have its say.....no news has yet been publishing or smelled with an essence of India transferring its share of development cost !

You can just refer to the link posted in the week of flight test.....!
What am I missing?

By "this bird" I assume it to mean the PAK-FA. ???

IF so, the PAK-FA has nothing to do with India as far as I can tell. It seems (my understanding) that it has been a pretty much a Sukhoi effort, not even a RU/RUAF effort. From the very few reports I have read, Sukhoi seems to have footed pretty much the entire bill (so far?).

The Indian 25% will come into the picture with the "FGFA" - at best a derivative of the PAK-FA.

Even the 50 or so single seaters India is willing to buy are off-the-shelf PAK-FAs (as far as I can determine) in which India has had not say what so ever. Right? (Just stating facts here.)

India will have a say in the FGFA, but PAK-FA I am fairly confident India will have no say. What so ever.

"share of development cost" is WRT FGFA (a derivative of PAK-FA granted). India is SUPPOSED to sign FGAFrelated stuff when Putin arrives in India next!!!!!!!!!!!! So, how can India say anything WRT this plane?

Missing something?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Indian version of pakfa (FGFA) must also concentrate about reducing rear RCS, and in addition to special frontal RCS reduction measures for the OLS projection (I feel the globe can be turned into more aerodynamic and deflecting shape).
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Not that it matters much, but, I am not convinced that the Russians would like to deal with the RCS issue as much as the US.

Why invest that much when the need may be very much less? Wars are not about stats on paper and even the mighty Uncle is feeling the expenditure pinch.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

India has always proven that it can do high technology products at least 3 to 4 times cheaper than western world.

When it comes to RCS, I am pretty positive in the next decade we can see Raptors around Indian continent's neighborhood. Whoever detects first, lives.
It need not take any effort to assume that chinese will mimic raptor in a decade, and perhaps send one copy to Unkil land for sale at 1/2 the price.

Though sensors and detection is slightly important than RCS now, we can't assume the same for the future.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

The US seems to have no real need for F-22s (any more?).

Peddling high tech to Pakis mean that US pays more, because of reverse threat.

The US specifically seems to be dusting off Boeings Broncos (google for it - in current DTI too) - a twin prop, really slow moving plane ................. for use in A'stan/Paki region. :) So much for F-16s and 18s too!!!! (View all this in light of what Jasjit(?) Singh said a few days ago for this region - posted it earlier.)

IF Chicom gets them, great. Let RU + US deal with them. Why should India bother from such investments?

IMHO (of course), FGFA/NGFA should be just good enough for Paki planners to give up hope. End of game.


BTW, if anyone has been following they do not need to read this. But the US has tested Predator to Predator fueling and have a box winged plane as a refueler of UAVs and can loiter for a week feeding UAVs. Also, I did come across a report that the USAF is hiring a lot more "pilots" for the UAVs than for actual planes!!!!!! Now IF Pakis or Chicom gets these I would be very worried. 1000 cuts on the ground and a million in/from the air. That would be really something to worry about.

And, I am sure that the next plane designed by either MiG or Sukhoi will be better than the PAK-FA too.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Brando »

NRao wrote:
IMHO (of course), FGFA/NGFA should be just good enough for Paki planners to give up hope. End of game.
The probability of that happening is zero. If they were swayed by arguments of logic to as you say "give up hope", they would have done so long ago! If Fundamentalists were to give up hope at the knowledge that they cannot possibly win, then Al Qaeda nor the Taliban would still be fighting.

Pakistan's war with India is about fundamentalism . In fundamentalism logic and facts are antithetical.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

My long ans would be OT, so I will let it slide. However, "planning" is done by a state, and, Talib is funded by a state. It is doable. Needs proper planning on Indian side and the will.

A topic for another thread.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Sagar G »

NRao wrote: IMHO (of course), FGFA/NGFA should be just good enough for Paki planners to give up hope. End of game.
I think saar that unkil or their taller than mountains deeper than ocean friend will find some way to negate this edge of ours. More than the latter the former will definitely make sure that this doesn't happen and India is never at peace.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by adarshp »

NRao wrote:Not that it matters much, but, I am not convinced that the Russians would like to deal with the RCS issue as much as the US.
I get the same feeling. Stealth defeats RADAR's but there are other sensors which are maturing which will probably make stealth which denies RADAR visibility down to < 15 - 20 miles pointless, as the secondary sensor would pick up the a/c sooner. In the foreseeable future these may push the envelope to ~30 - 40 nm, at which .01 or .00001 sqm may be equally relevant or irrelevant based on denying first look advantage. IMHO, RCS reduction in that era just needs to ensure that the enemy does not pick up the a/c before the 30-40 nm envelope to get a first shot. At 30-40 nm both may get the same opportunity to detect the other.

Ofcourse this goes with all the caveats that this is for an air to air scenario, and not for evading ground based detection which will still be RADAR based for the foreseeable future. I dont think however that the PAK-FA is optimized for that role too much. All analysis I have read indicates a different design intent.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

well, it depends. if you can find him before he finds you, then we can be safe that RCS may not be that much of an important. But, the enemy RCS is so low that you have no chance of finding before you are fired!

RCS is important for BVR.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

NRao wrote: IF Chicom gets them, great. Let RU + US deal with them. Why should India bother from such investments?
Wouldn't it be our problem then too?
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by NRao »

Sure. Risk is there in doing and/or not doing.

This is all meant for another thread. Suggest one and we can continue there.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by sumshyam »

This can be nightmare for some...and a surprise/joke of a day for others...!

Wiki says that UNIT PRICE would be something between 20 to 40 million $$. There is link in support of the claim.

Translation of that would come as ::
Cost of program for Russia's PAK FA is 12-14 billion dollars. Thus the cost per aircraft, according to various estimates, could range from 20 to 40 million dollars. Moreover, in contrast to the American F-22, Russia will deliver the aircraft on the world market. U.S. fighter risking his did not become - Raptor allowed to sell only to U.S. Air Force because of the large number of sensitive technologies used in it.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by suraj p »

Just a curiosity question !

f-35 vs f-32 scenario:
a. F22- hight cost, improved A2A capabilities and big radar etc.
b. f35 - low cost, vtol, more weapns and ground support ops.

Isnt Russia + India interested in f-35 type aircraft?

can pak-fa be made into a VTOL, based on Yak-38 engine. I am not completely aware of relationship between Yakovlev and Lockheed in developing VTOL engine with mid-section fan. I believe it was in Yak-38 a VTOL engine that had first demonstrated air intake from midsection and directing thrust at two different points for better balance ( I am not sure)

Can a modified version of Yak-38 engine installed in PAK-FA make a F-35 comparable version.
for a moment not arguing differences between PAK-FA and f-35.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
First of all, F-35 is not VTOL. It is STOVL and it's internal bay can carry less weapon than F-22.

Secondly, how did you come to the conclusion that Russia + India are interested in f-35 type aircraft? If it was so, why would they have built a heavy twin engine fighter with heavy emphasis on agility?

As for you suggestion to design a VTOL version of PAK-FA, IMO not happening. PAK-FA is too heavy for that.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

Can't the F-22 do VTO? I remember seeing it in a video, but i guess it might be a STO, these two things came out the front sides of the plane and it lifted up.

I can't remember if it was an actual video or from the movie Transformers.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

F35b is VTOL, but as you said, it is a heavier class and that is at 10ton more than JSF max takeoff.

Let us say, they come up with a similar vtol turbofan, then it has space issues, and more importantly the inlet designs will change to avoid turbofan lift feedback(ingestion).

IN better ask for JSF35b rather wait for pak-fa naval version.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

^^
Again, no version F-35 is not VTOL. Only F-35b for USN is STOVL (not VTOL).
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by SaiK »

Last edited by SaiK on 14 Feb 2010 11:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Carl_T »

i think that settles it
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Pratik_S »

Thanks for the replies, so Russia can sell their PAK-FA to whom every they want. Thats not good for us. 5th Gen technology should remain exclusive.

This the image of Naval PAKFA posted on IDRW
Image

There was article a year back regarding naval PAKFA but nothing much was on it. So if thing works out than their is no need to IN to float the MRCA tender as the PAK-FA can do the job.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight

Post by Gaur »

Saik,
Operationally, F-35B is "not" a VTOL a/c. Leave alone armament, it cannot perform VTOL with even a substantial amount of fuel. So, though technically it can be called a VTOL a/c, operationally it is a STOVL a/c. Even the Developing agencies do not call F-35B as a VTOL a/c. The following link should settle this.
http://www.jsf.mil/f35/f35_variants.htm
Considering this is the official JSF site, no further proof should be required?

ADDED LATER: Even in the vid you posted, do you think that hovering amounts to VTOL characteristics? Do you think that the a/c would have been able to take off from that altitude? I seriously doubt even that.
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