Bharat Rakshak

Interesting headline......

"God less communists, most pious muslims of secular India and most anti muslim crusading Christian super power are collaborating against the deal struck by jews and hindus"

Katare saar not only are the Christians but the Orthodox christian are in the fray too.....

Huh?

^^^ was referring to the rooskies!!!

If the deal with IAI is forced to be cancelled, rest assured that it will be at the behest of anti-Indian forces. The halting of the HDW, Bofors and Mirage 2000 deals had huge long term negative impacts on India's ability to conduct warfare and pursue national goals.

From the link above some interesting comments by MOD

•What is the background of the deal?

DRDO told CCS that MRSAM was the land derivative of an ongoing long-range surface-to-air missile project with Israel for the Navy. DRDO conceded that Akash, the indigenous missile system in development since 1984, had been a sub-optimal performer, following which it was decided that IAF would purchase only two squadrons, to be deployed in less-than-strategic airfields.

{so Akash is now a sub-optimal performer after being told it as capable of taking down supersonic , high manouverable target and low flying cruise missile and its unique ramjet engine advantage ? }

•India already possesses a more powerful missile in the same class: the advance air defence (AAD) missile, which is part of India’s anti-ballistic missile shield ?

DRDO: MRSAM is four times more manoeuvrable than AAD. AAD performs sub-optimally while engaging aircraft in tail-chase mode, reducing the air defence engagement envelope.

{ And the under development AAD also performs sub-optimally ? after telling us its more capable than PAC-3 and can engage BM and Aircraft equally well , how is this four times more manoeuvrable than AAD advertised, difficult to digest }



DRDO: Significant share of work in seeker technology has been awarded to Indian industry. For more than 80% of missiles, seeker sub-assemblies will be manufactured, assembled, tested in India with complete production drawings and assembly/test procedures.

{ Ok manufacturing seeker sub-assemblies , assembling 80 % is of it is one thing , but that still begs the question , seeker technology will not be provided }


Why is MRSAM such a darling of IN and IAF when this thing still needs to be tested and is yet on paper ?

MRSAM seems too light for the range. The weight specified is probably without the booster stage.

There seems to be some problem with AAD data

AAD altitude of kill should be ~ 30 km
Range in anti-aircraft role should > 100 km
Lateral Acceleration for AAD is stated as 7g (?)

While for MRSAM its 80 g , that seems to be underestimation for AAD and overestimation for MRSAM.

At 274 Kg for 70 Km that data too seem to be underestimation.

And MRSAM has some advanced Active Seeker and AAD has inferior Russian RF seeker ?

MRSAM is a paper tiger , AAD is moved much beyond that , and Akash is production ready.

Some one desperately want to sell MRSAM and make money

I don't understand why there is so much hype about MRSAM. Isn't this the Land version of Barak 8?
And 10000 crores include cost of dev and acquiring a certain number of squadrons of launchers and weapons itself.
I don't understand the problem here.
Akash takes 20 years and the range is 27 kms, cost is $500 million(only for dev), total amount including 2 squadrons is another $400 million = Total cost $900 million .
MSRAM will take 5 years, range will be 70 kms, cost including some squadrons = $2 billion.

And as per as NOVA getting the deal in india, I think it will be great since some private players in india will also get valuable experience in integrating missiles.

I think the MRSAM move is sound. Akash is clearly outdated/long in the tooth (command line guidance/ no active seeker) and is too late in the game. It is really an "Indian" missile with IAI bringing it's advanced seeker technology, which we lack and probably some of their guidance expertise.

This controversy is payback for the Congress for the ugly scene they created with Barak, a wholly unjustified witch hunt, where they even dragged in the former Chief of Naval Staff, all for the sole purpose of getting at George Fernandes as "revenge" for him going hammer and tongs at Rajiv Gandhi for Bofors.

Well, Karma is a beaatch. This toxic idiocy of playing politics with important and vital defense deals has to stop. India is shooting itself in the foot with all this kind of stupidity.

folks,
unless you are an internationally recognized missile expert, please do not play guessing games, and post juvenile personal opinion about indo-israel missile deal.

please please please, post relevant info with links and leave opinions, comparisons, guesswork, and goose-chase out of this PLEASE

Letter to Josy Joseph. Reg: Missile range was scaled down to benefit Israel firm.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1244938

The reporting of defense related news in India is so pathetic that at India’s number one defense blog (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com, try it sometime), the likes of you are referred to as the DDM (short for Desi Dork Media). This article of your, firmly puts you in the same category. Defense reporting, especially on issues of the nature in this article, requires a good technical understanding of the complex systems involved along with a familiarity of the working of the Indian military and its bureaucracy. You clearly have none of these.

The Akash missile system is unsuitable for your current defense scenario and should not even be mentioned here as an alternative to the MRSAM; it in no way qualifies as a contemporary weapons system despite whatever DRDO may say. It doesn’t even possess a seeker of terminal guidance (read it up on Wiki if these terms are information overload to you). This is not to say that the Akash is not a great achievement by the DRDO; we are all very proud of it and DRDO should be encouraged in every way in its future endeavors. But the Akash is long delayed and entered the game too late; the DRDO has matured since then. MRSAM falls in a whole other category and is comparable to the best in the world. The AAD’s primary design criterion is the engagement of ballistic missiles with aircraft interception only as a secondary role – not suitable for the IAF (Indian Air Force incase you don’t know). Israel has proved to be an exceptional partner to India in defense development. The alternatives SAM systems from other countries are unviable for India due to the geo-political involved in highly complex cutting edge weapons systems.

The international arms market is a very shady business and the Indian MOD, shadiest of all. I appreciate your news group’s work on the war room leak story and believe such scrutiny by a free and unbiased press is absolutely essential for any functional democracy. But you have jumped the gun to sensationalize this issue without adequate understanding or analysis. In the process you have caused an uproar in the media both here and in Israel, and turned the already charged the political atmosphere in India against the deal through baseless allegations, potentially sabotaging an extremely critical component of India’s defense preparedness.

The most glaring mistake in your article is that the IAF version of the MRSAM has a range of over 140 Km unlike the 70Km range naval version of the same system that you have confused it with. The MRSAM originated as the Barak 8. (The first Barak deal for the navy is a truly shady deal that no one has been punished for, but that’s another story.) The Barak 8 was India’s answer to air defense needs of its Navy. The IAF got involved much later after evaluating its own needs and finding the same system suitable. A common missile system for both arms of the armed forces is extremely desirable for reasons other than just cost/time saving. The MRSAM is thus the Barak 8 with a booster stage attached to give it enhanced range.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3416
http://defense-update.com/products/b/barak8.htm

Even if the IAF chooses to alter it original requirements, it would be doing so willingly as it deems the MRSAM proposal the best alternative available to it to get a system in place as quickly as possible. Have you analyzed the current air defense scenario in south Asia before you over looked the IAF’s urgency in this matter? Do you have any qualification to undertake such an analysis? Do you even understand just how limited the IAF’s current radar coverage is? (Itself a result of overdrawn procurement processes in the current MOD setup.) There are several institutions of higher educational that offer courses in strategic affairs, you may want to look up before you undertake such an endeavor.

Many feel that this system MUST be rushed thought even if serious corruption is uncovered as the need is so great and the current inadequacy so dangerous. We simply cannot afford another Danel howitzer episode that has thrown the Army’s preparedness into disarray. After a long drawn out trail process stretching over a decade (only in India), in which Danel came out the clear winner; the entire artillery arm of the Indian army was suspended in limbo after allegations over a small rifle deal with the same company surfaced. This was almost 10 years ago and the topic is still a hot potato no one wants to touch. Meanwhile our brave men in uniform are yet to get a modern howitzer and face a superior armed enemy on both frontiers today.

Do you have motives over the average idiot journalist looking to get ahead though shameless sensationalism? Did these sources of your seek you out or did you approach them during the course of your ‘investigation’? This could be an attempt to sabotage India’s defense preparedness by external elements or simple by competitors of IAI. This is not at all unlikely or outlandish; you are yet to understand just how shady the arms bazaar is. Your self-serving reporting may have already done immense harm to India’s defense at an extremely testing time in south Asia. I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Kishore Reddy

Very well man. Very nice article (letter to DDMites).

even if the Akash missile itself is replaced by newer things, why not design MRSAM from the outset to use the same set of vehicles, radars and control networks developed at great effort ?

only thing is the MRSAM will probably be hot launched from VL tubes like the
S300/Patriot.

Kishore Reddy-ji,
Very very well written. Hope this bangs some sense into DDM editors and journalists.

Very good Kishore. A few changes. It should be Denel not Danel. And Trials not Trail. And emphaise that the cancellation prompted by Renuka Chowdhary's allegation has effected IA readiness after the Mumbai terrorist attack.

Can you make it a little bit generic and send it to all the newpapers that had covered the issue?

Hi Kishore,

Very good reply. You may want to make some spelling/grammar changes though, especially if you are sending it out to several newspapers. This may sound like nit-picking but unfortunately, many people tend to judge a book by its cover.

Some changes suggested below in bold:

"This article of yours"

"in case you didnt know"

"The alternative SAM systems"

"are not viable for India due to the geopolitics"

"the already charged (remove the additional "the" here) political"

"mistake in your article is in not realizing that the IAF version of the MRSAM has a range of over 140 Km"

"the MRSAM proposal to be the best alternative"

"overlooked"

"MUST be rushed through"

"a hot potato that no one"

"Did these sources of yours seek"

"or simply by competitors"

Do any of you have this dolt's email ID. I posted it in the comment section but I does not appear on the page. Thanks Prem for the proof reading, I am dyslexic and useless with spellings. I agree this should be sent to every defense correspondent in India, if nothing else then to piss him/her? off. Please feel free to forward this letter to anyone that comes to mind. The defense reporting in this country is atrocious. The MOD needs to shortlist one qualified reporter from every major news outlet and do a workshop to impart basic knowledge on defense matters to the DDM. Thanks.

Israeli arms deal clean: Antony

Thiruvananthapuram, April 3: A $1.4 billion missile deal India has signed with Israel is "clean" and contains a clause providing for its cancellation if it is proved kickbacks were involved, Defence Minister A.K. Anthony said Friday.

The deal, signed in February but made public only in March, is the biggest between the two countries. The Left parties have now alleged corruption in the deal for the supply of an anti-missile air defence system.

"This is an old issue. It was in 2002 that the decision was taken to replace our old missiles. From 2007, for two years this deal was discussed by various departments of the defence ministry and it even has a pre-integrity agreement," Antony told reporters here.

He pointed out that the pre-integrity agreement clearly states that the deal can be cancelled at any point of time if the government feels that kickbacks were involved.

"It can be revoked at any time. If the future government feels any such thing has happened in the deal, they can cancel it and take legal steps (against Israel Aerospace Industries that is executing the deal)," Antony said.

Asked to comment on former Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi working for a foreign company in New Delhi, he said: "I am not aware of it. Many retired defence officials do work after retirement."

India: Bribes Could Terminate Deal with Israel

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR

Though I read all the rebuttals opposing the DNA news, questioning the IAI missile deal, I have an opinion that some thing is wrong. One of the sore point against the news piece is the reporter compared the M/LRSAM in the same breath with AAD. This may not be accurate as far as the objective of the systems considered.I think the people who have fed the facts to the reporter had intentionally fed some crap like both M/LRSAM are in the same league as AAD. One other thing that still fuels the thought of foul play is the reduction in the number of Akash squadrons order.

The whole issue may not be about M/LRSAM Vs AAD, but about Akash Vs Spyder. In that case, Akash is better than the range of Spyder, but has the same objective. Then why should IAF go for Spyder, when Akash is available. Perhaps, the black sheeps behind the screen wanted to kill the M/LRSAM collaboration. So they used the real foul play that happened in Spyder system acquisition (which 's not yet been completed).

Cut the crap about IA/IAF wanting foreign maal. Akash can at best replace the kvderat. It simply is not in the league of MR-SAM (70 km). I am sure IAF and army will order some more Akash batteries but they need not come at the cost of MR-SAMs or LR-SAm's.

Anyway who wants to buy the akash?

^an Israeli answer to all speculations in media

there was news about similarities in arrow2 and barak8 systems??

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10754

Doesn't it look like balderdash? Comparing SAM with AAD...

DNA is just creating mindless paranoia for the sake of news , if only they had done their research properly they would have found that MR- SAM will replace some of the current missile defence systems which are outdated , AAD will not be in the same category as it will defend against BM's.

Why is it so hard for them to work out.

DDM
BR should stop posting DNA articles on news updates

concern is the question of it being only the range issue. if it is, then we could have done a similar joint indo-israeli collaboration to make akash to be having 80km range as well.

when the requirements are drafted,.. are these defence honchos really see a quota system and apply like smooth operators?, and right from planning stage, akash will never get that market!?

a whole lot of truth will never be said though.. however, if we have a system to improve on, and anybody thinks we can get there, we should choose that path rather.

i'd vote for that.

Well,Arun its a democracy with a free press .. Any one with a story (agenda) can have a field day with the 'right' connections ! dont you recall the ISRO 'scandal' sometime back

Link doesn't work any longer.

Who did this man die fighting?

Vishal Thapar
New Delhi, August 9 2004

An upright naval commander refuses to approve a faulty weapons system in Russia. He and his commissioning team are flown back to India. Six months later he is killed in a mysterious hit-and-run case. A year after his death, the commander gets a gallantry award. People, especially those in the navy, are drawing the obvious conclusion: that an arms mafia had him killed.

This is the story of Commander Nawaz Ahmed. As the commissioning officer of the Russian-built Krivak-III class frigate, christened INS Talwar, he realised during acceptance trials in 2002 that a key on-board weapon system — the Shtil-1 surface-to-air missile — was malfunctioning.

let's not seek more into the news than they actually mean. there is no end to such endless speculation.
the krivak deal was an example where the supplier wanted to thrust the system on the surface before it was tested to satisfaction. but did they succeed ? the upright Commander paid with his life and the navy accepted the ships only after the systems were proven.

the decision of not going to war in case of India is a political one and hence out of the scope of this thread.

the commander gets a gallantry award

^^
and as of now barring a handful lifafa jobs we do know that the forces were willing but the politicos didn't give the go ahead.

IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.

skher, the situation is far from ideal but the forces would even then have managed.
at least wrt pak. and yes, the AF too.

New Delhi: A project worth Rs 1,200 crore for a much needed modernisation of airbases across the country has entered troubled waters with competitors approaching the Defence Ministry's Vigilance Department against “unfair practices” in the selection process.

The project, which includes an air traffic management system, navigational aids and an airfield lightning system for 30 frontline airbases of the Indian Air Force (IAF), was sanctioned last year with six bidders vying for the mega deal.

However, the selection process is set to get delayed with competitors pointing to 'discrepancies' in the technical evaluation process that led to the short listing of all six bidders. The Vigilance Department of the Defence Ministry was approached and it is learnt that inquiries have been sent to the Air Force asking it to clarify its stand.

Competitors have alleged that the requirements of the Air Force in the original tender were diluted to accommodate all companies. It has also been alleged that several top companies, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin and Larsen and Toubro (L&T) did not take part in the competition even after being invited by the IAF due to loopholes in the tender document.


While all six bidders, which included consortiums of Indian companies with foreign firms, were short listed for the project, the complaint says rules have been diluted that helped at least two companies qualify for the final round of commercial negotiations.

In one instance, one of the companies in the consortium bidding for the contract has been blacklisted by a South Asian country for providing faulty runway lightning equipment. In the other case, it has been alleged that the Indian company that is the lead integrator of the project has a turnover of less than 1/10th of the contract value, ignoring financial guidelines.

The modernisation project includes the setting up of an Instrument Landing System, Tactical Air Navigation System, Communication Equipment and a CAT 2 airfield lightning system.

why can't DRDO itself hire the same three arms merchants and the same ex-IAF "officer" and sell DRDO hardware to the same customer?

It is rather natural that we will make all types of speculations as to why favorite rafales are out,whether it is justifiable?or how to justify the actions of some babus, but one thing is for sure that corruption is prevalent in this deal and the babudom has confirmed that , 'no money , no deal' analogy, and rafale was the first to shoot down, amongst most probable,giving them huge bargaining power for commissions and they have delivered their message to others, .
but most itching is ,this is done even before user trials ,
this report that rafales are rejected even before trials could be an artwork of sensational news reporting by media or
we could possibly see a lot of RTI's upon RTI's filed in coming days,as people will surely want to know what the hell is called transparency in defense deals,and political parties will use it..
just my 2 cents.

Somebody please File an RTI...

IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Apparently the Israeli firms owe much of their success to these local agents.

The Ministry of Defence on Friday released a list of seven firms it has blacklisted for alleged graft charges in the Ordnance Factory Board scam. The firms include Israeli Military Industries (IMI) and Singapore Technologies who are key defence suppliers to India. Last month, the CBI arrested Sudipta Ghosh, former managing director of the Kolkata-based Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) on graft charges.

The MD who retired on April 30 had allegedly received kickbacks from suppliers through a network of Delhi-based agents and unaccounted cash worth Rs 3 crore was recovered from him. Five other firms include Bumar of Poland which manufactures armoured recovery vehicles, HYT Engineering of Pune, RK Machine Tools, TS Kishan and company and another Singapore-based firm Media Architects Pvt Ltd.

------------- rest snipped ---------------

IOL: This middle man character (sudhir chaudhry) for the MRSAM missile is for real. Apparently Israeli press was forbidden to mention his name until last month. Reports are that CBI will be investigating him. He helped sell the Barak missile. He has represented IAI since 90;s. He has been representing ALL israeli firms for the last 10 years. He is based in London. This Chaudhry guy and Nanda has been under the scanner for the past few months because they have been dishing out bribes to Indian officials and "officers". There are 3 characters, Chaudhry, Suresh Nanda and some guy called Erwin Kanu.

Defence rethink on Israel freeze
SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, June 8: The defence ministry is having second thoughts on its decision to freeze business with a major Israeli military firm because it is likely to boomerang on the armed forces.

The Israeli Military Industries (IMI) is a key supplier of critical equipment to Indian security forces and the ban on the firm, announced last Friday, will force the security establishment to look for alternatives that are not easy to find.

“The decision is to put transactions ‘on hold’. This is a temporary measure. We are assessing what is to be done,” a defence ministry source said today.

The South African firm, Denel, blacklisted in 2004, continues to be tainted. But Denel did not have as many running contracts with India as the Israeli firm does.

IMI and six other firms were blacklisted because the ministry was convinced the CBI found evidence they had bribed the former director-general and chairman of the Ordnance Factories Board, Sudipta Ghosh, who was arrested in Calcutta last month. Defence minister A.K. Antony decided to blacklist the firms even before the CBI furnished a chargesheet against Ghosh.

But the blacklisting of IMI and another firm — Singapore Technologies — will have a heavy immediate impact. IMI is not only a supplier of small arms to the Indian Army but also to Indian special forces.

Since the Mumbai attack last November, further orders have been placed with IMI. The firm makes the Uzi and Tavor 21 submachine guns. Variants of the guns have been supplied to Indian forces and are in use.

IMI is also a supplier of 125mm tank shells, for which it provides knowhow to ordnance factories. It recently inked a deal with the ordnance factory to revive a Nalanda plant in a Rs 2,000-crore project to manufacture propellant charges for Bofors ammunition, and another deal estimated at Rs 700 crore to manufacture Zitara carbines in an ordnance factory.

IMI has a running project to make cargo ammunition — a variant of “cluster bombs” that rights activists rail against — in a joint venture with the Ordnance Factory at Khamaria in Madhya Pradesh.

IMI was also advising the Defence Research and Development Organisation on the development of the indigenous Arjun tank for the Indian Army.

The Ordnance Factory Board was also working on a proposal from IMI to jointly develop a bomb, PB500, capable of penetrating two-metre-thick concrete.

The blacklisting of Singapore Technologies practically cancels a part of the Indian Army’s artillery modernisation programme. The firm was left the only bidder with its Pegasus gun for an order of ultra-light howitzers.

The other contender, Bae Land Systems, which displayed its gun at an exhibition in Delhi, opted out of the race. With Singapore Technologies banned, the government will now have to cancel the tender unless the ban order is revoked.

Fallout of the blacklisting after OFB chief's arrest.

From Telegraph, 9 June 2009
LINK

So the idiot corrupt chief has managed to stymie so many important projects with his avarice.

No-No. I understand Sri Anthony blacklisted the firms. That was because the idiot chief took the bribes. If he hadn't RM would not have to do this "Caeser's wife must be above suspicion" act. So by taking this silly bribe (what will he do with all that money?) he has jeopardised the national security by forcing blacklisting. Once found out the INC with old Bofors stigma had to do this. They have no choice. Or else the very same press that lauds AKA's honesty will go after him hammer and tongs and tarnish him.

The process has to be a way to punish the worngdoers and not the forces.

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Austria expects to bring corruption charges in connection with BAE arms sales, the first such prosecution in five years' of bribery investigations all over the world.