LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

John · Post by **John** » 01 Jan 2014 22:45

That is also radar guided missile earlier variant is a command guided missile, i believe both variants require the launch platform to have a radar system. Only missile LCH would be able to carry is something like Penguin that can be cued up by via EO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jan 2014 22:55

Well LCH can get an offboard radar fix or get a radar itself

ALH w/ LRDE radar
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 710478.JPG
Ka-25
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/ka25_sv2000.jpg

John · Post by **John** » 01 Jan 2014 23:13

That would require extensive redesign it is similar cheaper option to buy additional Maritime helos for that. Apache with longbow should have that capability but its range is rather limited.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Jan 2014 23:17

Gentlemen, ALH in the words of a Kamov pilot from perspective of ship based operations - "How much can it lift and how far?" That is the challenge from Navy's POV.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 02 Jan 2014 00:43

if they drop the altitude requirement they can switch to piston engines and electric propulsion for better endurance? or maybe wait for EADS to deliver such an engine

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Jan 2014 02:47

The IN has accommodated the ALH as much as poss. ,despite its failure as a shipborne light multi-role helo,with the formation of the first ALH unit,INAS 322 meant for SAR duties mainly.The squadron will call themselves ‘Guardians’ with the credo ‘Search Fearlessly, Rescue Valiantly’ signifying the primary role of SAR.

The VVIP helo deal was a scam right from the beginning.The same helo was chosen by the USMC for the US presidential flight,but rejected because it was found to be too expensive.AW with some justification said that US manufacturers sabotaged the deal,just as they did with the tanker affair where the A-3330 was the original winner,deal cancelled later on. We chose the same helo but at an even greater price than what O'Bomber found unacceptable! Secondly,why such a large number of VVIP helos when even the US pres. required less?

Secondly,there were other less expensive alternatives.What does the Russian pres. use? MI-17s,of which we have almost 200 in service and which would've been very cost-effective to operate ! At the previous Aero-India show in 2011,there were models and brochures showing the lavish interiors for VVIP versions.What does the French or German pres. also use (Super Pumas and Cougars respectively )? Surely these could've been alternatives.

Now that the Cong. knows it is going to be wiped out by the Opposition both BJP and AAP,it is cancelling the deal to look good in the eyes of the common man and also to deny its successors luxurious backside comfort! Too little,too late unfortunately..How we are going to operate just 3 helos is a moot point.They would be of use only for the pres. or PM and how would we operate and maintain them if AW is blacklisted? The best bet would be to sell them back to AW /AW to take them back,or guaranteeing lifetime support in exchange for not being banned from future tenders.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Jan 2014 06:46

Karan M wrote:In latest news, India is closing the AW deal, we will keep 3 out of 12 choppers contracted, and pay 45% of contract value.

Wonder what good those 3 helicopters are for.

45% of 3600 crs for 3 machines. Or 45% of the cost of 3 machines. If it is the former how is the nation helped by paying 45 % of 3600. For 3 machines. The amount comes to 1450 crs. No.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 02 Jan 2014 07:54

In news yet to come (the future) - 3 AW101 choppers lie rusting in a hanger due to lack of spares and maintenance. The Indian taxpayer has one again donated to the multinational arms merchant fund for the vulgarly wealthy.

Meanwhile the fiscal deficit touches 94% of its limit in 8 months of the fiscal year threatening spending cuts including the defense budget....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2014 10:37

they will join the ranks of the famous WG30 agusta westland helis from same stable.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Jan 2014 10:46

Paul wrote:Question on the wheels, why does the LCH not lock it's wheels in after takeoff? Same goes for the apache.

The Mi-24 does do this as can be seen the following video locking its wheels in: 15:50 - 15:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55LuPlmgeiw

Locking mechanism increases mass of the helicopter and does nothing it improve its already-narrow high-altitude performance.

On the other hand, increasing the length of the stub wings to go beyond the spanwise landing-gear protrusions allows increased lift under forward-flight conditions and is generally lighter than any mechanical locking mechanism. Also, unlike the locking mechanism, the increased stub-wing span does not bring in added complexity to the design from the failure standpoint. Don't want locked undercarriages caused by battle damage writing off the chopper now, do we?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jan 2014 18:01

Excellent video of weapon systems being tested on WSI Dhruv/Rudra. Only thing missing is ATGM firing for obvious reasons.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Jan 2014 20:48

^^ Good questions raised here on the efficacy of anti ship weapons. Torpedoes are the most effective weapons because of the backbreaking underwater pressure wave created. However, they lack 1. speed 2. range 3. sensor to track & detect beyond short ranges. The next efficient weapons are supersonic missiles like Brahmos whose KE is an effect multiplier.

Target ships are very difficult to sink. It took all weapons in IN inventory to sink decommissioned INS Udaygiri in 2008. Reason being target ships have empty fuel tanks, no aviation fuel, empty magazines and empty missile launchers. In active ships, these constitute major components that contribute to secondary explosions that sink ships.

The same USS Guam with its aviation fuel store & ship fuel would be a tinderbox in action if active defences failed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jan 2014 20:53

45% of total value pratyush saar. awesome use of all our tax money. somehow, army/nsg/sf procurement is stuck in red tape redux (partly their own fault but also babugiri) yet these choppers with comfy seats for the privileged bottoms of our betters were cleared double quick.

and now only 3 are to be procured. what comedy!!

i say give all 3 to NSG. better use of scarce national assets.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2014 21:33

they could also be given to coast guard for long range patrol and SAR. given the merlin heritage these should be capable of over ocean ops.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Jan 2014 21:51

tsarkar, in what role and how is the match chetak employed by the navy?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jan 2014 21:56

Singha wrote:they could also be given to coast guard for long range patrol and SAR. given the merlin heritage these should be capable of over ocean ops.

they probably have gold plated teapots within and fanciest furniture. probably everything will need to be ripped out for them to be of any use other than glorified taxis. putting mission eqpt in will be another pain. hence my thought of giving them to NSG.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jan 2014 08:42

Aditya G wrote:tsarkar, in what role and how is the match chetak employed by the navy?

The Chetak is a utility helicopter. MATCH adds hardpoints for ASW capabilities. For anything located on VDS beyond range of shipbourne weapons will be engaged using MATCH Chetak. In a group, anything detected by the group's sensors would be engaged using MATCH Chetak.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 06 Jan 2014 11:14

The Chetak is a utility helicopter. MATCH adds hardpoints for ASW capabilities

tsarkar saar (and other Gurus),

Chetak is used by Navy as ship based helo among other roles. (Sea Level or 0 m altitude)

While Cheetah used as a liaison craft for Siachen Based operations (5500 m altitude).

I suspect , that though running gear of both are similar , gearboxes and rotor blades (or blade angle) is different for both.
Any Confirmation?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Feb 2014 00:00

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=827103

On the procurement proposals of the force, Thapliyal said it will procure the new, modified and indigenously-built ALH Dhruv choppers for deploying them on its ships patrolling the coastal zones.

He said the HAL-built choppers now come with the option of foldable blades, which allow them to be stationed inside ship hangars.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2014 05:22

Aditya G wrote:http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=827103

On the procurement proposals of the force, Thapliyal said it will procure the new, modified and indigenously-built ALH Dhruv choppers for deploying them on its ships patrolling the coastal zones.

He said the HAL-built choppers now come with the option of foldable blades, which allow them to be stationed inside ship hangars.

Is this a new development from this:

The Indian Navy’s Dhruv: falling between two stools

Wednesday, 17 September 2008

...
2. Folding Main Rotor. An on-board helo has to be accommodated into a very small hangar space, which means that the main rotors must have a system of hinges, which allow them to be quickly folded before putting the helo into the hangar (and then, equally quickly, unfolded when it is brought out for another flight). The navy’s initially stated requirement was for the rotors to be folded within a width of 3.5 metres.

Furthermore, the navy wants an automatic blade folding facility, of the kind that is installed in its Sea King helos. In this, onboard electrical or hydraulic actuators fold up the blades quickly, rather than having to go through the longer and more painstaking process of manually folding the blades. Remember, that in the smaller warships, the tips of the main rotor blades extend beyond the deck, overhanging the sea. So manually folding them --- by removing bolts and supporting the blades during folding/unfolding --- is an exercise that the navy would rather avoid.

HAL had a problem with foldable blades, as well as with installing an automatic system. A senior Dhruv designer told me, “the requirement of Blade Folding with a width of 3.5 metres was not feasible due to the inherent design characteristics of the ALH hingeless Main Rotor Blade with an Integrated Dynamic System”.

However, HAL worked on the problem and came up with the concept of “segmented blades”, which would be 5.1 metres wide instead of the navy’s requirement of 3.5 metres. HAL says the navy has agreed to the 5.1 metre width, and that the process of manually folding the “segmented blades” has been demonstrated to the navy.

However, HAL has not installed an automatic folding facility. HAL tells me, “Automatic blade folding was not pursued due to weight penalty of about 100 kgs”.

It may be useful here, for the readers’ understanding, to describe what HAL means by “segmented blades”.

“Segmented blades” comprise of two blade parts. The outer part is folded inwards to obtain the desired folded width. The other option is that of “Hingeless blades”, which have no physical hinges. These are made of composite materials, which ensures “virtual hinges”.
...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 02 Feb 2014 00:14

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 22 Feb 2014 02:14

2nd Dhruv crashes in Ecuador.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Feb 2014 06:51

Bad news.3 dead.HAL had better rush a team there to find out the details.It was the presidential heliopter.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Feb 2014 11:09

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:2nd Dhruv crashes in Ecuador.

lets find out what happned and improve our system, with what we learn from the accident investigation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Feb 2014 12:06

One person survived.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Feb 2014 13:37

Pictures of crash and some details

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/757211.html

On 20 February 2014 in Ecuador helicopter crashed president - purchased in India light helicopter HAL Dhruv Ecuador Air Force (FAE-side number 601), operates flights from Guayaquil to the capital Quito. Three soldiers aboard the helicopter, including the presidential pilot, were killed and one wounded. More people on board were not.

According to local press reports, at the time of the disaster survivor piloted helicopter pilot - Captain Pazos, who found in the minds of local residents after six hours after the accident. With reference to the chief physician of the hospital, where operated Pazos, reported that the helicopter be flown at a cruising speed of about 70 knots and the flight accident happened suddenly for the crew.

Ecuador's President Rafael Correa in the Air Force HAL Dhruv helicopter Ecuador (tail number FAE-601) crashed 20.02.2014 (c) fuerzaerea.net

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Feb 2014 13:38

Sudden accident while it while cruising along may be linked to both Engine Failure ?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 Feb 2014 15:43

AFAIK even if both engines fail helicopters don't just "fall out of the sky".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Feb 2014 00:17

Austin wrote:Russia, India to consider free trade deal
Economy
February 26, 15:45 UTC+4

NEW DELHI, February 26. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia and India agreed to form a working group to consider prospects of a free trade agreement between India and the Customs Union, the trade bloc that brings together Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia, the Indian Ministry of Industry and Commerce said in an official statement made public after talks between Indian Minister of Industry and Commerce Anand Sharma and visiting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin in the Indian capital on Wednesday.

Other priority bilateral projects that the negotiators discussed include setting-up of a joint venture to produce light multipurpose helicopters Kamov Ka-226T and construction of a first Indian butyl rubber-producing plant.

During current visit to India, Dmitry Rogozin will also meet with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid.

What is this Ka-226T and why is it significant to set up a JV in India?

srin · Post by **srin** » 27 Feb 2014 00:50

It was up for the LUH procurement before the deal itself ran into rough weather.

IIRC, 187 helos were to be procured and 187 made by HAL. If a JV is setup, then the HAL LUH will be a stillborn.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Feb 2014 04:06

HAL is renowned for late "deliveries".Several of its projects have been in "labour" for years,with intense "labour pains" for the mother.The IJT being just one for example.There have often been miscarriages and a few "stillborn" cases.At times even firang "specialists" and midwives have been brought over to assist in the delivery.However,there have been no cases of "premature" births.On the contrary,in some cases,the extra weight and growth of the baby has been a key factor affecting a smooth delivery.In such cases,the "doctors" have had to use forceps on the head of the "mother" to get the baby to emerge! Some babies have displayed congenital defects after birth,requiring much surgery and nursing skills to ensure a healthy normal lifespan for the child.

Sadly,many of defence DPSUs are not renowned for the quality of their healthcare,requiring the frequent "adoption" of firang children to keep population numbers happy!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2014 10:18

could anyone point out what is the exact number of Dhruvs in operation with the Indian Armed Forces and other operators? One news report on the Dhruv fleet reaching 1,00,000 flight hours stated that 132 had been delivered to armed services and another 12 to civilian operators..any updates since?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 01 Mar 2014 15:37

Karan M wrote:In latest news, India is closing the AW deal, we will keep 3 out of 12 choppers contracted, and pay 45% of contract value.

Wonder what good those 3 helicopters are for.

One for each member of the family

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Apr 2014 23:34

Cross-post from R&D thread.

Chat with Shri Tamilmani of CEMILAC on Tarmak FB page. Excerpts related to LCH/LUH

LCH - LCH is on advanced stage of flight testing for certification. one of the best products with proven ALH technologies.
LUH - Prototype is getting ready for various ground test and expected to start flying during the second half of next year. It is feasible to complete the certfication trails in two years.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 15 May 2014 19:48

Is the third prototype of LCH flying now? Hope to see LUH prototype flying soon.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 May 2014 20:09

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/s-92-i ... 1542333610

After a decade-long saga, including one serious boondoggle of a development program, America's next "Marine One" will be based on the Sikorsky S-92 super-medium twin engine helicopter ....

Parts already supplied by Tata :

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... 267845.ece

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 May 2014 10:06

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) aggressively marketing its T-129 ATAK variant of the Agusta A-129 Mangusta gunship. While HAL sits on its hind quarters doing zilch to begin to drum up interest in the LCH. Again, why bother with exports with a captive customer with huge requirements? Hope the Modi govt. does something about this..there can be a lot of manufacturing jobs created in the aerospace sector if the will and urge to export indigenous platforms exists.

TAI looking to make step change to next level

With Turkey featuring prominently at ILA as the official partner country, TAI had a particularly strong presence at the show, with a number of its products on display. These included the T129 ATAK combat helicopter, the Anka medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), and a mock-up of the Hurkus trainer aircraft.

With the first 9 of 50 ATAK helicopters having only recently been delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces, the T129 is now primed to take on the export market. Dortkasli declined to name specific countries being targeted, but the helicopter did make an appearance at the Bahrain Airshow earlier in the year in what could be a precursor to a Bell AH-1 Cobra replacement programme for the Middle Eastern kingdom.

According to IHS Jane's Defence Procurement , other attack helicopter requirements exist in Argentina, Chile, Finland, Hungary, Indonesia, Kuwait, Malaysia, Morocco, the Philippines, and Poland, among others. Dortkasli noted that he expected the T129 to make its UK debut at the Farnborough Airshow in July.

On the subject of the Anka MALE UAV, Dortkasli was again reluctant to comment on specific opportunities, but with the Turkish Armed Force having recently placed an order for 10 Block B configuration platforms (with deliveries set to commence in 2016), there is plenty of scope for future export success. While the Anka is currently unarmed, TAI is known to be looking at options for weaponising the platform.

With regard to the Hurkus, Dortkasli said the ongoing flight trials campaign precluded it from making an appearance at ILA and that Farnborough may also be too soon. Instead, a life-size mock-up of the cockpit was shown on the company's stand. Even so, with the Turkish Air Force expected to field the Hurkus in conjunction with its Northrop T-38 Talon, the twin-seat turboprop should prove to be a low-cost but capable option in both the light trainer and light attack categories globally.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 22 May 2014 10:39

The biggest problem for LCH is that it has still not been made available to IAF or IA.

i am also for Naval version of LCH (similar to AH 64 ) to be deployed with the future LHD (4 units).

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 May 2014 19:08

Kartik, once things get pretty set, it will happen! But then HAL will be busy supplying the 150 Units to IA/IAF. Will it really have bandwidth to supply any other state ? Maybe a few to Ecuador.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 23 May 2014 21:28

Pardon my ignorance. How many Rudras have been built and inducted into the IA?
I recall there was an order of 6 squadrons, each squadron having 10 Rudras.
Is there even one strike corps of the IA that is fully equipped with it's
Rudra contingent? At what rate are the Rudras being built every year?
Thanks in advance.