LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Jun 2011 12:18

Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik's Interview By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd) for India Strategic Magazine

• In an interview for India Strategic’s Paris Air Show edition, the Air Chief said that IAF had Already Finalized its Choice for the Combat Helicopter
While that of the Utility Helicopter had also been through with the Indian Army, which is the Lead Buyer in this case. IAF will follow and buy the same helicopter.

As for the Heavy Lift Helicopter, “The Final Report can be expected within the few days,” he said.

Boeing’s Apache AH 64D and the Russian Mi 28NE are the two contenders in the race for combat helicopters while Boeing’s Chinook – the Only Helicopter which Can Float on Water – and Russian Rosoboronexport’s Mi 26 are in the fray for the heavy lift role. The utility helicopter race for the Indian Army and IAF has the EADS Eurocopter and Russian Kamov in the race.

• There is Another Project for an Indian-Made Multi Role Helicopter Later in the Decade.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jun 2011 20:15

Juggi G wrote:Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik's Interview By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd) for India Strategic Magazine

ACM Naik has talked about so many different projects. it looks like the last couple of months have been very very busy in finalizing selections. hopefully these don't come back and haunt us ALA Bofors.
In terms of tenure, ACM Naiks tenure has been monumental!!! inspite of the 3-legged cheetah comment!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jun 2011 20:31

That 3 legged cheetah comment was not made by Naik but by a retd IAF person, VK Bhatia, who made that silly comment, writing in a magazine, based on media reports bashing the LCA. His own subsequent interview of Naik actually goes against that comment as Naik firmly says that the LCA is a 4G aircraft, and after FOC will be 4G+.

In other remarks to IAF crew, Naik reportedly also mentioned LCA MK2 will be in Gripen NG category, and this was mentioned by a IAF person at a public event.

IMO, the entire fracas about the LCA 4G stuff at its IOC was a mistimed, illthought out (given the occasion) attempt by Naik to put pressure on the developers and test crew to get the LCA operational fast. He must have been egged on by advisors to do so - as a similar thing happened when the LCA first flew (when Tipnis was actually advised by some worthies to not even attend the first flight). Such a lack of graciousness, bad PR at such events is typically Indian, where one group tries to out do the other va such silly put downs.

Thereafter though common sense seems to have come into play, with Naik acknowledging the LCA is a 4G aircraft & will rise to 4G+ levels. And the plans for six-seven squadrons of the MK2 are a shot in the arm for the MK2. At the end of the day, with IOC having been achieved, and FOC certification being worked towards, MK2 launched, MMR problem resolved, new engines ordered, and only iterative modernization required for MK2 (versus deep redesign), the LCA program is now fairly well set for completion.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Jun 2011 11:14

Congo Chopper Pullout
India refuses UN request to extend IAF deployment
The Telegraph - Calcutta

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2011 16:27

How many Cheetahs have been upgraded to the Cheetal standard. Wiki gives no numbers

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 19 Jun 2011 21:15

Shimoga likely to be new destination for HAL

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 26447.html

Shimoga is likely to be the new destination for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which is planning to establish a new helicopter manufacturing unit in the state. A three-member team of the Bangalore-headquartered HAL visited the district and held discussions with the Deputy Commissioner, official sources said

It's 5 days old news, i saw it on Prajavani yesterday.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 22 Jun 2011 22:06

http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/rotorhub ... sion/9369/

The Indian Air Force is close to choosing between the AH-64D and the Mi-28NE, with a decision anticipated in the next two months, according to Apache manufacturer Boeing.

Nice to hear

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jun 2011 11:31

has the Chetan and Cheetal been implemented enmasse ? after a brief huha few years ago it has gone all quiet - so is there a fleetwide update ongoing or it got canned ? why so - was it perceived investing in fresh Dhruv airframes is a better VFM long term ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Jun 2011 17:24

^^ 10 Cheetal for IAF and 10 for IA, or maybe just 10 in total. No Chetan, it evolved to NRUAV until replaced by Dhruv for that concept as well.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 28 Jun 2011 20:50

BREAKING NEWS: LCH TD-2 makes a successful test flight

http://blogs.defenceaviation.com/uncate ... light.html
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/06/ ... y-hal.html

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 28 Jun 2011 21:08

Congrats to everyone involved for design, developer and support guys/gals for LCH TD-2 flight test

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jun 2011 21:13

Pratik_S wrote:BREAKING NEWS: LCH TD-2 makes a successful test flight

http://blogs.defenceaviation.com/uncate ... light.html
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/06/ ... y-hal.html

Mogambo khush hua

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jun 2011 21:55

Pratik_S wrote:BREAKING NEWS: LCH TD-2 makes a successful test flight

http://blogs.defenceaviation.com/uncate ... light.html
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/06/ ... y-hal.html

JE BAAT !!!

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 28 Jun 2011 21:57

wow great news it is

performs :LungiDance:

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jun 2011 23:47

would be great to see that digital camo'ed LCH flying with fully loaded pylons !

raajneesh · Post by **raajneesh** » 29 Jun 2011 00:14

badhaai to all, right on mark.

One amazing thing about LCH - Its load factor(empty/fully-loaded) of 2.5, beats all others. Also, its service ceiling(6500m). Its world-record maker in many areas. I am shocked that a PSU has done better job than West.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jun 2011 01:29

LCH to yaar nikla!

When the make a heavy helicopter they will beat the rest.

Indaruta · Post by **Indaruta** » 29 Jun 2011 04:36

I still remember the Mi8 during the Kargil war. what is the protection against that, how does it handle any MANPAD's fired at it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2011 08:06

whine whine - LCH has a too soft feminine nose betraying its dhruv origins. needs a faceted uglier bullish nose in the ah64/mi28n mould.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jun 2011 08:19

wasn't shakti-fr having some issues regarding cost etc? we could think about the GE wala then. unkill is all crazy now to establish deeper ties.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 29 Jun 2011 10:38

Singha wrote:whine whine - LCH has a too soft feminine nose betraying its dhruv origins. needs a faceted uglier bullish nose in the ah64/mi28n mould.

Mi-28 is the ugliest helo I have ever seen... it cannot even be called mean (which is a +ve thing for an attack helo)... LCH is like a deadly King Cobra... in that Black paint of TD1. In the digital Camo scheme she is like a desert Rattler... waiting to strike.. Congrats to HAL..
Hari Nair Sir... an update please...

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 29 Jun 2011 11:04

Mi-28 is like the Orcs; ugly,mean and "I dont give a damn about what you think about me" look.

LCH is more like a Vishkanya, breathtakingly beautiful, breathtakingly deadly ( pun intended )

vina · Post by **vina** » 29 Jun 2011 11:20

LCH is more like a Vishkanya, breathtakingly beautiful, breathtakingly deadly ( pun intended )

Hiss. Hiss.. For the kiss of the Poison Miss . Ahh.. Bliss!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Jun 2011 11:20

yippee.. time for lungi dance.. Would have loved to see this baby fly in the Aero India.. but better late than never.. whatever happened to TD-1 that had some problem during aero india...

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 29 Jun 2011 12:21

^ what have good looks/bad looks got to do with usage/functionality?

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 29 Jun 2011 13:03

ALL is good But here is a thing to worry about.According to graphics the service ceiling of LCH is same as that Of apache but the speed is much slower.Infact LCH is the slowest of all the attack helicopters.For a heli like LCH the max speed should be more than 300 km/hr

Parakram · Post by **Parakram** » 29 Jun 2011 13:39

abhishek-nayak wrote:ALL is good But here is a thing to worry about.According to graphics the service ceiling of LCH is same as that Of apache but the speed is much slower.Infact LCH is the slowest of all the attack helicopters.For a heli like LCH the max speed should be more than 300 km/hr

That is because of the power plant limit of 871 KW. They can not make it more, or LCH will have more weight. But I think 275 is enough. May be they can improve it with MK -2 or later versions.

LCH is not made primarily for fast speed. The main goal here is high altitudes with much weapon load. And its best in those things

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 29 Jun 2011 19:50

abhishek-nayak wrote:ALL is good But here is a thing to worry about.According to graphics the service ceiling of LCH is same as that Of apache but the speed is much slower.Infact LCH is the slowest of all the attack helicopters.For a heli like LCH the max speed should be more than 300 km/hr

LCH is supposed to operate at forward bases close to the action. It has a very high range (read endurance), which will give excellent loiter time on location in support of armour, which is its primary role. Also, in the heights it will have an advantage of lower weight and lesser need for support. the Apache/Mi28 class of heavies, is intended to be based at major bases (helicopter bases) which then fly out and meet opposition, needs to be faster for that.
Also most of the flight regime will be in the cruise mode where speeds of most helis hover in the 175-190 region.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2011 20:12

mi28N looks designed from day1 to be the ugliest looking rotorcraft in quite a while.
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/attachment ... tid=162262

John · Post by **John** » 29 Jun 2011 21:35

Parakram wrote:
abhishek-nayak wrote:ALL is good But here is a thing to worry about.According to graphics the service ceiling of LCH is same as that Of apache but the speed is much slower.Infact LCH is the slowest of all the attack helicopters.For a heli like LCH the max speed should be more than 300 km/hr
That is because of the power plant limit of 871 KW. They can not make it more, or LCH will have more weight. But I think 275 is enough. May be they can improve it with MK -2 or later versions.

LCH is not made primarily for fast speed. The main goal here is high altitudes with much weapon load. And its best in those things

But relative to its empty weight 870 KW should more than sufficient? I am more inclined to believe its design not the engine that's limiting factor when it comes to its speed.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 29 Jun 2011 21:50

Pics Pics When are we going to see the pics.

I do agree with John, going by the numbers the speed does not seem to be influenced only by the engine, the overall design seems to be contributing more to its speed characteristics.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2011 21:55

Bhat Phor do we need a helo that does 400+ km/h like the Bell Super Cobra? Bhat is dhis designed phor? NASCAR racing or tank killing? Also with the weight in TD-2 being reduced (the final production version could be even lighter) the speed or payload could theoretically be increased no?

A maximum speed of 275+ km/hr is sufficient enough for Al-Khalid that has a top speed of 72 km/hr....a full 200 km/hr less!!!! The top speed of Kareena (my choice of name for the LCH for being size zero!) is more than sufficient to turn Al-Khalid into Al-Vidha!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Jun 2011 22:10

Speed can be VERY handy when the LCH is under fire, or if it wants to make a quick low level pass and hit the target by surprsie not giving them enough time to react. Speeds should play a factor. How much so, obviously IAF knows their requirments better then us arm chair generals.. I think if the American engine was used, then they would have higher speed, higher operating altitude, and a little bit more weight, but still enough to suffice that penalty. Not sure what that would do to the range. Maybe after successfully testing Mk II, they'll try to see if they require more speed out of LCH and if no major structural changes are required who knows one might opt for it, or not depending on what IAF feels they require.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2011 22:15

Craig: If someone is firing a shoulder launched missile against a low flying helicopter, would it make any difference if the top speed of the helicopter is 275+ km/h or 400+ km/h? Not asking a rhetorical question, just want to know...as you make an interesting point. As you suggest, they might increase the speed if the need arises.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jun 2011 22:20

LCH will have DIRCM, it will not need to 'run' from IR guided shoulder launched missiles. and given that an attack helo is primarily dependent on cover its speed is more than sufficient. at most they might want to jack it up to 300, if it is not too big a problem.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Jun 2011 22:25

Rakesh: No. LCH can't outrun a shoulder launched missiles and as RahulM rightly pointed out it won't need to due to CM & Jammers on board. By Under Fire I was referring to bullets (AA guns) not missiles!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 29 Jun 2011 22:28

Craig Alpert wrote:Speed can be VERY handy when the LCH is under fire, or if it wants to make a quick low level pass and hit the target by surprsie not giving them enough time to react. Speeds should play a factor. How much so, obviously IAF knows their requirments better then us arm chair generals.. I think if the American engine was used, then they would have higher speed, higher operating altitude, and a little bit more weight, but still enough to suffice that penalty. Not sure what that would do to the range. Maybe after successfully testing Mk II, they'll try to see if they require more speed out of LCH and if no major structural changes are required who knows one might opt for it, or not depending on what IAF feels they require.

balance that out with importance of
1) operating in siachen
2) its total weight
3) accelaration

I would give the least importance to that top speed aspect, when compared with others.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jun 2011 22:29

Well DIRCM is not a full proof system , the newer shoulder sam are coming out which have 3 channels and then there is laser guided manpads etc , a chopper will always be vulnerable to short range organic AD and manpads/Ack Ack that are spread in numbers.

Parakram · Post by **Parakram** » 29 Jun 2011 22:32

John wrote: But relative to its empty weight 870 KW should more than sufficient? I am more inclined to believe its design not the engine that's limiting factor when it comes to its speed.

Yes design + specifications, such as max take off weight. The maximum speed is calculated with max weight in consideration.
Do not worry about speed, it will/is sufficient in all cases. In case of attack helicopter, you need a very good armor for protection. LCH has some armor in considerations

nikhilarora · Post by **nikhilarora** » 29 Jun 2011 22:38

Hi,

I am sure this has been discussed here before but would want to ask again! The LCH TD2 has a generous glass area in the cockpit as was in TD1, wont it come under heavy small arms fire and compromise the safety of the crew? Can the gurus please elucidate!