LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Bala Vignesh
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

The IN, I believe, has summarily rejected the possibility of using Dhruv in any role beyond communication duties on shore.. They were simply not satisfied with the performance of the chopper..
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

Bala Vignesh wrote:The IN, I believe, has summarily rejected the possibility of using Dhruv in any role beyond communication duties on shore.. They were simply not satisfied with the performance of the chopper..
Even the MK-III which has won over IA? Doesn't make sense, afterall IN has been on the forefront of promoting Indigenous products...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

Dhruv not having foldable wings has been a major drawback for IN, it does not fit on small ships.

Being a medium lift helicoptor it can best replace Cheetah/ Cheetal roles and doesnot have the lifting capacity or endurance which the Navy needs.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by atreya »

Ajai Shukla posted a blog about Indian Navy Dhruvs sometime back, with some details

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2008/09/i ... n-two.html
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by alexis »

As per reports, the Dhruv is not light enough for replacing Chetak and not heavy enough to replace Seaking.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Yagnasri »

and there is not enogh maal in purchasing any Indian product. So let us import some more and enjoy.

By the way if it is not suitable why it was ordered to be made???? For fun - just like LCA, Arjun etc.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Anujan »

IN has always been staunchly supportive of domestic efforts. They even support N LCA and Kaveri marine gas turbine and are farthest along in indigenization. They have supported domestic products even when not refined and stuck with them till they improved (like sonar and torpedo's)

If they are not interested in dhruv it is likely to be for a good reason.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

unlike on land you can rightsize by upping the number by a few airframes in same formation.

in the deep sea, those 2 helis are the first line of ASW defence and need to be the best for the job. getting a HWT explode under the keel is not a desirable outcome due to cheen type shortcut solutions.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

Are Druvs rejected completely or is the Navy working with HAL to produce a variant meeting its requirements. As it is the IN, i am putting my money on the later, the Rudras would defenintely pack a punch when deployed on our LHDs!!!
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

with no LHD deal even on the horizon, why would IN waste its time building a platform for that limited number of airframes?

they can easily buy themselves a few apaches or tigre helis for future LHD. french and british operated these from amphib ships during libya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc0WKEyQQLw
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Singha miyan,
Can't a marinized LCH be used here instead of a Apache or a tiger.. That would be a cheap and good option, I think..
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

The payload of ALH is not sufficient for INs future requirements. They are working with HAL on the medium lift heli which has blade folding capabilities right from the onset.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Singha miyan,
Can't a marinized LCH be used here instead of a Apache or a tiger.. That would be a cheap and good option, I think..
LCH has the same blade-folding problems as the ALH.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vsunder »

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Indranilji,
Don't reckon neither apaches nor tigres have the capability to fold their rotors..
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by kvraghav »

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... uv-24.html

Please refer the above link for info on the naval dhruv and sorry if it was posted earlier. Time and again, we discuss the main drawback as the folding of rotors but the Dhruv CAN fold its rotors. The range was said to be the only issue.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by merlin »

kvraghav wrote:http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... uv-24.html

Please refer the above link for info on the naval dhruv and sorry if it was posted earlier. Time and again, we discuss the main drawback as the folding of rotors but the Dhruv CAN fold its rotors. The range was said to be the only issue.
No, AFAIK the Naval Dhruv cannot fold its rotors as that is just a proposal and not implemented yet. And even if implemented the folding of the rotors is manual and not automated (automated controls add to the weight) and the hinge will lie outside the ship which is a problem for manual folding and a BIG problem during high sea states. So said some knowledgeable person on this forum :-)
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by kvraghav »

^^^
So that means, the photos in the link are from the prototype and not implemented at all?
Secondly, we can see that the dhruv in the folded rotor state inside a hangar. What does the "Hinge will lie outside the ship" mean?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by kmkraoind »

Sorry, if the topic has been discussed earlier. Does IAF operates Dhurv with side sling. The image has been copied from net
Image
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vivek_ahuja »

kmkraoind wrote:Sorry, if the topic has been discussed earlier. Does IAF operates Dhurv with side sling. The image has been copied from
What sling and what helicopter? :mrgreen:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Austin »

Dhruv and Dhruvi both look stunning :shock:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by merlin »

kvraghav wrote:^^^
So that means, the photos in the link are from the prototype and not implemented at all?
Secondly, we can see that the dhruv in the folded rotor state inside a hangar. What does the "Hinge will lie outside the ship" mean?
When Dhruv is on the landing deck/pad, just after landing, the rotors obviously are not folded. To fold them requires manual effort, someone has to fold the rotors. Without folding the rotors it cannot be stuffed inside the hanger. The hinge where the fold happens will lie outside the ship's deck for some small ships.

At least that's my understanding.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... n-two.html
An on-board helo has to be accommodated into a very small hangar space, which means that the main rotors must have a system of hinges, which allow them to be quickly folded before putting the helo into the hangar (and then, equally quickly, unfolded when it is brought out for another flight). The navy’s initially stated requirement was for the rotors to be folded within a width of 3.5 metres.

Furthermore, the navy wants an automatic blade folding facility, of the kind that is installed in its Sea King helos. In this, onboard electrical or hydraulic actuators fold up the blades quickly, rather than having to go through the longer and more painstaking process of manually folding the blades. Remember, that in the smaller warships, the tips of the main rotor blades extend beyond the deck, overhanging the sea. So manually folding them --- by removing bolts and supporting the blades during folding/unfolding --- is an exercise that the navy would rather avoid.

HAL had a problem with foldable blades, as well as with installing an automatic system. A senior Dhruv designer told me, “the requirement of Blade Folding with a width of 3.5 metres was not feasible due to the inherent design characteristics of the ALH hingeless Main Rotor Blade with an Integrated Dynamic System”.

However, HAL worked on the problem and came up with the concept of “segmented blades”, which would be 5.1 metres wide instead of the navy’s requirement of 3.5 metres. HAL says the navy has agreed to the 5.1 metre width, and that the process of manually folding the “segmented blades” has been demonstrated to the navy.

However, HAL has not installed an automatic folding facility. HAL tells me, “Automatic blade folding was not pursued due to weight penalty of about 100 kgs”.

It may be useful here, for the readers’ understanding, to describe what HAL means by “segmented blades”.

“Segmented blades” comprise of two blade parts. The outer part is folded inwards to obtain the desired folded width. The other option is that of “Hingeless blades”, which have no physical hinges. These are made of composite materials, which ensures “virtual hinges”.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

LUH will most probably carry up to a 20mm gun according to a tender for development of its hydraulic pumps.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Nick_S »

^ Shiv Aroor will copy-n-paste you again soon... :roll:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

If I understand correctly, the WSO sits in front on Combat helicopters....that is how it is on Mi-35 and Apaches and Cobras...needs a better FOV for employing the weapon set.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Can any chai paan wala tell us when the LCH 3 will be taking off. Having lost the proposed 300 kgs of excess weight.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

rohitvats wrote:If I understand correctly, the WSO sits in front on Combat helicopters....that is how it is on Mi-35 and Apaches and Cobras...needs a better FOV for employing the weapon set.
I think you are right. Among the current crop, LCH and Eurocopter Tiger will be the only helicopters with the pilot in the front.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

Could this be due to terrain of deployment? The LCH would be used in mountains. Would the pilot need a good view?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by John »

This was discussed way back in days of usenet and the rational was gunner sits over turret to improve its accuracy. Nowadays with improved cockpits and HMD this is no longer needed. So no suprise LCH and Tiger have gone this way (newer designs).
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

John wrote:This was discussed way back in days of usenet and the rational was gunner sits over turret to improve its accuracy. Nowadays with improved cockpits and HMD this is no longer needed. So no suprise LCH and Tiger have gone this way (newer designs).
makes sense for a modern attack helo, today the WSO sees with sensors, thermal imagery etc and cues weapons from his HMDS (in some cases) so probably the front posn was assigned to he pilot to provide enhanced situational awareness at all altitudes... My 0.00002 paise
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

It looks likye the last word has not been said on the attack helo saga of the IA, it seems IAF wants to hold on to the Apaches, LCH and Druv-WSI already ordered... Only future orders might go to IA. As a sop, current Hinds might be transferred to IA. Any chaiwala news on this.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

From the RFQ for the manufacture of the MFDs for LCH. Here is the production schedule for serial production:

Code: Select all

2015-16:   ~5
2016-17:  ~15
2017-18:  ~15
2018-19:  ~15
2019-20:  ~14
1. Right now the Rudra and LCH prototypes use the same MFDs as the ALH Mk III. LUH mock up also showed the same MFDs. Why the special MFDs for LCH now?
2. Should we not expect LCHs before 2016? (the RFQ does ask a quote for a initial 18 MFDs, enough for 4 LCH + 2 spares)
3. This accounts for the 65 LCHs ordered by the *IAF*. What about the 114 ordered by the *Army*?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

what kind of display tech is used in airborne MFDs as they must be visible in bright direct sunlight - typical cellphone displays do not have that property.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

For more details: you can see RFQ FOR SUPPLY OF MULTIFUNCTION DISPLAY (MFDs)

Look in the TB1MFD.pdf file, near the end for the required specifications.
Brightness Management:
MFD shall have a brightness management function based on the following :
- Automatic brightness control through internally mounted photocells.
- The automatic brightness control according to ambient light intensity shall be Enabled/Disabled through RS422 interface.
- Display brightness setting provided by a potentiometer located on the MFD.
- The Day/Night/NVG Brightness Management shall be provided through the brightness potentiometer available on the MFD bezel layout.
- The brightness levels for each of the mode shall be commanded from Display and Mission Computer through RS422 interface.
Display Characteristics:
1. Front glass shall have adequate anti-reflective coating as per MIL-C-14806 or equivalent standards to avoid glare / reflection when, installed in
the cockpit.
2. Displays shall be free of jitter, flicker, toggling etc. Display shall incorporate adequate antialiasing features to avoid jagged lines/ stair casing
effect. Image shall be stable under all operating conditions.
3. Displays shall be clearly readable from a viewing distance of 800 mm.
4. MFD shall be fully sunlight readable.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

HAL to hand over 2 Rudra choppers to Army at Aero India, By Anantha Krishnan M, Express News Service.
Bangalore: The Indian Army will be handed over the first two weapon system integrated (WSI) version of Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH-Mk-IV) Rudra, during Aero India 2013. Confirming to Express on Thursday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) chairman R K Tyagi said that Rudra will also be available for customer demonstration flights at show. “Rudra will definitely add more teeth to Indian Army and we will roll out more production units to the squadron,”Tyagi said. Express had earlier reported that around 70 Rudras will fly out of HAL to meet Army’s initial requirements.
“In addition to the redundant flight critical systems, IR suppressor, armour panels, crashworthy features, self-sealing fuel tanks enhance the survivability of the helicopter in the battlefield environment,” Tyagi said. Rudra can carry a mix of weapons, providing it with capability to search and destroy any target. Systems like electro-optic pod, helmet-mounted sight, fixed sight facilitating firing of the onboard weapons (20 mm turret gun, 70mm rockets and Air-to-Air missiles), makes Rudra an unforgiving machine.
He said Rudra’s rigid rotors have extremely high agility and manoeuvrability. With its higher powered engine, the chopper can undertake missions up to altitudes of 6 km. “With such capabilities, Rudra is unmatched in the world, in its class,” claims Tyagi.
Tyagi confirmed that HAL has plans to integrate additional new systems on Rudra, including Infra Red jammer, Data Link, obstacle avoidance system (for Army), wire cutter (for IAF) and NBC (Nuclear Biological and Chemical) sensors.
When asked about ALH Dhruv’s (earlier version of Rudra) export status, Tyagi said three more countries have shown interest in these choppers. Over 130 Dhruv helicopters are in operation now, with Indian Army flying 110 and 12 with Indian civil operators. Ecuador, Nepal, Mauritius and Maldives also operate Dhruv choppers.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

so what meets these demanding reqs - IPS LED like home TVs , sAMOLEDs like smartphones or something else?

and note these MFDs have been in business since mid 80s atleast when people started putting them into planes and replace analog instruments.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Zynda »

Was watching a program on Discovery Science a couple of days ago about evolution of Huey. They showed the latest variant of it, the UH-1Y Super Huey (clicky). Immediate thoughts were of Rudra...taking the concept of an awesome transport helicopter and adding some muscle to it. Great going HAL team! The evolution of our indigenous helicopter program is almost similar in lines to Huey -> Cobra and upgraded variants of the same (Super Huey & AH-1Z Viper)
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Rudra is good. for sure the IAF doesnt want it...gives a chance for IA to lay in 100s of airframes of this force multiplier swiss knife with zero inter service politics at play. if they could add in a extra fuel tank and a couple lads to manhandle some ATGM reload tubes and ammo drums for reloading, could set down at some austere ladakh/sikkim FARP and replenish the ordnance as well for quick turnarounds.

or have them point a couple wicked looking miniguns out the sides for some scary COIN/suppression firepower.
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