LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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rohitvats
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

The report on Rudra induction from TOI. Highlighting the relevant parts. IMO, this is a red letter day for Indian Army. Armed helicopters have in them to change the course of battle(s).
BANGALORE: The first ndigenously-developed weaponised helicopter 'Rudra' was on Friday handed over to the Army which has successfully raised an attack chopper fleet on its own.

This is the first of the 60 armed helicopters provided to the Army by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after the defence ministry handed over the control of all attack helicopters to the land force.

"This is a very important system for us as it will be the first platform (of choppers) which is weaponized. In any battle, fire (power) and manoeuvrability should be closely integrated to support ground operations and provide immediate help if and when required.

"This (Rudra) will help us to get that capability," Army deputy chief Lt Gen Narendra Singh told reporters here.

"The first squadron of the helicopters would be operationalized soon. (comment - seems the squadron has not be raised)

We will have 60 choppers and one squadron will have 10 of them," Army Aviation Corps' Maj Gen PK Bharali told here.

He was talking on the sidelines of a function where HAL chairman RK Tyagi officially handed over the chopper to the Army.

Bharali said a total of 60 Rudras would be inducted into the Army and the machines will be part of six squadrons.

The chopper is armed with air-to-air missiles such as the 'Mistral', rocket pods and heavy machine guns to help the ground forces with close air support. The Army is also planning to procure the under-development Light combat helicopter (LCH) being produced by the HAL.

Recently, after a long tussle between the Army and the Air Force, the defence ministry decided to give control of all the future acquisitions of attack choppers to the land force.

The Army has plans of having a squadron-each of weaponized choppers in each of the pivot corps and a full-fledged attack chopper squadron with each of the three Strike Corps.Comment - rest assured, IA intends to induct at least 36-40 Apache helicopters which will go to the Strike Corps AAC squadrons.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

Singha wrote:looks like ammo crates to me. good to know a ungodly amt of cannon rounds is readily available. the white rollers over which the belt runs is clearly visible in each drum.

ideal would be a underfloor feed system from right there to the cannon...infact that may already be the case here as I dont see any volume compartment near the gun for ammo
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... zinpODcZvn
http://taiwanairpower.org/army/oh58d/xm296.jpg

apache has a mag in one of its fat cheeks

mi28 carries external drums beside the cannon
It really eats into the cabin space. How many troops can the Rudra carry ?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Rudra id not troop carrier..though might work as a self defending csar bird
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Lalmohan »

i dont think that is ammo - it would weigh a collossal amount...
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

This might have been posted before, hopefully it leads to radar integration in the future either mast mounted or cabin based

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... ndian-Army
The weaponized version of the Indian-made Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) will be inducted into the Indian Army beginning this week, an Army official said.

An active vibration control device and updated avionics have been added to the Mark-IV version of the ALH, which was cleared here Feb. 3 for initial operation, the official said. The earlier Mark-I and Mark-II had problems with excessive vibration, the Army official said.

Developed by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), the Mark-IV ALH, also called Rudra, has 350 hours of prototype test flying in various terrains and climates, including the deserts of Rajasthan and the mountains of Sikkim state, a HAL executive said.

Powered by the Shakti engine, jointly developed with French company Safran Turbomeca, the ALH Mark-IV can fly at altitudes above 20,000 feet. The Shakti engine will also power the Light Combat Helicopter being developed by HAL.

The weapons onboard the ALH include a 20mm gun supplied by France’s Nexter, air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles supplied by European company MBDA, and a Belgian-made 70mm rocket system.

The Indian Army has a requirement for 150 Mark-IV ALHs, and the program is worth $3 billion.

“The integration of multiple weapon systems simultaneously on the helicopter is a complex assignment,” said Soundara Rajan, managing director of HAL’s helicopter division. “In this particular case, it involved four major groups of systems and weapons, involving eight countries: Israel, France, Belgium, South Africa, Germany, Italy, USA and India. Nearly 23 kilometers of cables had to be laid, and hundreds of hours of flight and ground tests were carried out.”
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22605 »

indranilroy wrote:I am pretty sure it is re-configurable.

Here's one config displayed (via Livefist)
Image
FCD ammo
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Raghuk,

is the cabin reconfigurable?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

So the stub wing join does house something which needs an air intake. It also shows that the wing has been moved up from the previous location. Two out of the 4 original hard-points are visible below the stub wing. (Image courtesy Livefist).
Image
shiv
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

raghuk wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I am pretty sure it is re-configurable.

Here's one config displayed (via Livefist)
Image
FCD ammo
There are electronics and a green (inert) gas cylinder. Probably telemetry equipment?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Singha wrote:looks like ammo crates to me. good to know a ungodly amt of cannon rounds is readily available. the white rollers over which the belt runs is clearly visible in each drum. ideal would be a underfloor feed system from right there to the cannon...infact that may already be the case here as I dont see any volume compartment near the gun for ammo
Yes, the cockpit design & diminutive chin leaves no space for ammunition there.

I am guessing the LCH & the Rudra follow the Mi-25/35 gun & ammunition layout concept. In all probability, the LCH has a similar arrangement of storing the ammunition either under or behind-under the back seater like the Mi25/35. The front seater has no estate under him.

Rudra cannot carry a full complement of troops in addition to its increased weapons load and yet fully fulfill flight critiera. Maybe a couple of door gunners/loadmasters/armourers but that's it. It is India's Mi25/35.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rajanb »

LCH Display Aero India 2013

Isn't she loverly!

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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by keshavchandra »

raghuk wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I am pretty sure it is re-configurable.

Here's one config displayed (via Livefist)
Image
FCD ammo
There is a seat one can see at the end. Is it an operators seat or else.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by KrishnaK »

raghuk wrote:FCD ammo
What does FCD stand for here ?
Boreas
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Boreas »

KrishnaK wrote:
raghuk wrote:FCD ammo
What does FCD stand for here ?
one FCD I know stands for Factory Crimped Die, used to crimp bullets. not sure that they are used in gunships!

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=404
member_22605
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22605 »

Ammunition for the turret gun(about 300 rounds if i remember right). LCH will have them all inside the fuselage probably where the telemetry equipment lay now. There are no telemetry systems on the production units hakeem ji. By FCD i meant Flare and chaff dispensers but then i realized they are to the side.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Lalmohan »

might just be ballast
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Katare »

rohitvats wrote: The Army has plans of having a squadron-each of weaponized choppers in each of the pivot corps and a full-fledged attack chopper squadron with each of the three Strike Corps.


Although a good start but somehow it looks bare-bone allocation of helicopters to me. I hope with in a decade they upgrade/upscale to allocating an armed/attack heli squadron per division with an entitlement of having a armed heli squad available to each of the brigades :twisted: .

This should be doable if HAL keeps up the tempo with its recent successes with ALH/LCH/LUH line.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

^^^

Cost may prove to be prohibitive, especially if a new mountain strike corp is to be raised.
rohitvats
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Katare wrote: Although a good start but somehow it looks bare-bone allocation of helicopters to me. I hope with in a decade they upgrade/upscale to allocating an armed/attack heli squadron per division with an entitlement of having a armed heli squad available to each of the brigades :twisted: . This should be doable if HAL keeps up the tempo with its recent successes with ALH/LCH/LUH line.
Sir, it is all about the green bucks. India has in excess of 30 divisions...that is 300+ attack helicopters!!! For the time being, I can live with more choppers per Squadron that the present 10 a/c per Sqn number.

And when the resource(s) are scarce, they need to be centralized for maximum exploitation. IIRC, the plan calls for having an Air Combat Brigade at Corps level. I think this will have LCH+Rudra+ALH and may be, a chopper in class of Mi-17 (i.e. when MOD OKs IA to have this class of choppers).
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SagarAg »

:D ^ Jingo khush hua ^
The stealth helicopter, with very low radar cross-section, is suited for high-altitude operations as well. “We took the helicopter to 20,000 ft during trials over Bangalore,” said Mr. Pillai.
And what is this last line about stealth helicopter ? Is LCH a stealth heli :-?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Here is a design that is supposed to be stealthy

Image
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SagarAg »

^ It looks like carved out of huge stone or something. :lol:
Might be a typo error by the reporter.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

That's the Comanche, so stealthy even the US army can't find it :D

Had lot of cost overruns before being cancelled.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by saip »

AgustaWestland deal: Finmeccanica CEO Giuseppe Orsi arrested for paying bribes to sell choppers to India


Link

I wonder who took the bribe? Could it be in Swiss accounts of one high powered lady?
Did we receive all of the craft?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by ManuJ »

From above link:
He said the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), under development at HAL, is also shaping up well, is all set to take part in the forthcoming firepower demonstration of the Air Force, Iron Fist, in Pokhran. “The helicopter will fly in formation with other HAL helicopters Cheetah, Chetak and ALH besides doing some display-flying,” he said.
Getting the IAF pilots familiar with the bird?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

SagarAg wrote:^ It looks like carved out of huge stone or something. :lol:
Might be a typo error by the reporter.
no.. you should know that this was the helo that killed OBL.

under massan prez budget, a separate line of industry can run for special ops. we don't have any such things in desh.

when it becomes too stealthy, they hide it under special ops. comanche is not dead.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by VinodTK »

India bought helicopters Obama rejected as ‘costly’
NEW DELHI: US president Barack Obama had found a variant of the AW-101 helicopters too exorbitant to pass muster in 2009. But the Indian government had no such qualms while inking the Rs 3,546-crore deal for 12 plush AW-101 helicopters just a year later in 2010.

The American "Marine One", the call sign of the US Marine Corps helicopter which ferries the US President, would of course have been much more high-tech and "souped-up" helicopter compared to the Indian variant.

Obama had shot down the Marine One project, under which the US Navy was to have acquired 28 helicopters, after cost escalations had taken the overall cost to over $13 billion in June 2009, as per some estimates.

Money, instead, was invested to upgrade the existing US Presidential helicopter fleet. Last heard, another AW-101 variant was again in contention to bag the US Navy's latest programme to develop the "Marine One Presidential Helicopter".

Three of the 12 AW-101choppers contracted by India — eight in VVIP configuration and four in non-VVIP - have already been inducted in the IAF's elite Communication Squadron, which ferries around the President, PM and other VVIPs, at the Palam airbase. They are slated to replace the ageing Russian-origin Mi-8s and Mi-17s being currently used to fly VVIPs within the country.

Indian VVIPs have been getting plush new aircraft and helicopters to travel in style and security over the last decade. The AW-101s, for instance, have robust self-defence systems like missile-approach warners, chaff and flare dispensers and directed infra-red electronic counter-measures to protect VVIPs on board. In the VVIP configuration, they ferry only 10 passengers instead of the usual 40.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

SaiK wrote:
SagarAg wrote:^ It looks like carved out of huge stone or something. :lol:
Might be a typo error by the reporter.
no.. you should know that this was the helo that killed OBL.

under massan prez budget, a separate line of industry can run for special ops. we don't have any such things in desh.

when it becomes too stealthy, they hide it under special ops. comanche is not dead.
Sorry Saar - one tiny nitpick. The one used for special ops and for OBL op was stealth'ized Blackhawk mh-60.

Comanche was stealthy 2-seater armed helo, no passenger capability. Almost LCH class, and with similar capabilities, but LO.

The pic shows the Comanche - wiki has the same picture.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

^^^

The intent of posting the wiki picture of Comanche was to see if LCH which is still evolving could become our LO platform, the mention of stealth in the news report seems to suggest so
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

I bet there will be low-hanging fruits that might be addressed in a future Mk 2.

A concern that I have about doing anything fancy is that if something goes wrong with the op (like in OBL op, where they had to abandon the chopper), our LO tech would land in porki hands.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Comanche is no low hanging fruit.

The tech was difficult for even Massa to master within their budget. I was reading about it's IR suppression. Very innovative.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Lucky for HAL, the order book for LUH just doubled.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

indranilroy wrote:Lucky for HAL, the order book for LUH just doubled.
Now that the 197 light helicopter tender has been frozen, how does HAL's LUH compare to the current two contenders?

I didn't see much info on LUH from the AI-13 show. Can someone update on the LUH's status? I remember reading somewhere that the first metal cutting happened for LUH. when are the iron-bird and static tests commencing? Dates for first flight?

Wasn't there an issue of engines for LUH? HAL had floated a tender after Turbomeca quoted a big sum for the LUH engine derived from Shakti. What is the final word on it?
Last edited by putnanja on 14 Feb 2013 03:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

^^If the LUH uses the Shakti engine it will have a lot more power than the Fennec or Ka-226. However I haven't seen a trustworthy figure for its MTOW and passenger/payload capacity yet. HAL infoboards usually list its service ceiling as 6.5km which is over 21000 ft - much higher than that of the Fennec and about 1000ft higher than that of the Ka-226.

The only problem with the LUH, assuming the Shakti engine deal comes through, is that it'll take at least 4-5 years for it to be ready for induction. Till then the IA and IAF are stuck with the old Chetaks and Cheetahs. That is why this 197 helo deal was important. Corrupt individuals have shafted the armed forces yet again by causing the deal to fail.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

I don't get the logic of freezing one acquisition by two contenders whereas the corrupt deal was by a third contender, unless the freeze is just temporary to make sure that there was no undue influence. First the defence ministry freeze on capital expenditure, and now this. :roll:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

At AI-2013, HAL showcased the gearbox of LUH. From HAL-Connect, we know that the ground test assembly is already completed. I think the first prototype is supposed to fly by year-end (read next year :-)). Mr. Tyagi said "if all goes well, IOC of LUH is planned within 2 years". Take that with some salt. But going by how quickly they fabricated the ground test assembly, I have hopes.
Image
Image

On engines, Prasun Sengupta says:
The Ardiden-1U is presently being developed by Turbomeca specifically for the LUH. Therefore, its certified specifications & performance parameters won’t be available until the year’s end. Presently, all that can be said is that it will be an uprated version of the Ardiden-1H/Shakti.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by nachiket »

Indranil saar, if chorgupta is saying that, there is a 90% probability that it is completely made-up onlee. :mrgreen:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

gyaan batt raha hai charo taraf, mein toh bus samet raha hoon. Jo sahi nikla woh rakh loonga. Jo bakwaas nikla woh gutter mein jayega :-).

[Translation: Knowledge spreading in 4 directions, I only am gathering them. What correct comes out, I will keep. What garbage comes, that gutter into goes]

And now for some serious OT. :-o
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by putnanja »

$1.5-bn deal for light utility choppers uncertain
The much-anticipated $1.5-billion deal for 197 light utility helicopters is facing cancellation for the second time as the decision has been deferred by the Defence Acqusition Council (DAC) in the Ministry of Defence.
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While sources claimed that the decision on the deal will be taken later, which has been in work since July 2008 and delayed because of the bureaucratic process. However, industry watchers told Financial Express on condition of anonymity that the RfP for the 197 helicopters may even be scrapped.
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As reported by Financial Express earlier, sources confirmed "both the Eurocopter's Fennec and its competitor, the Russian Kamov Ka-226T, have not completely met the specifications". However, a technical panel has studied the deviations and made certain recommendations to the MoD. The decisions made have not been accepted by the Defence Acquisition Council, said the sources.
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