LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 10 Mar 2011 13:57

what for is the Z shaped pipe under the tail of ALH Dhruv ?
http://i44.tinypic.com/33c6kb5.jpg
?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 10 Mar 2011 14:05

abhik wrote:Sounds perfectly reasonable from a commercial point of view, But almost everything HAL makes is for the military where strategic interests trump commercial.

The "strategic" part is to be able to design, test, integrate and assemble the aircraft - components (incl engines) can be sourced from the market...Maybe a diferent Indian company can specialise in aero-engines..

abhik wrote:That the "supply chain will building itself out", i have a hard time believing. Take Embraer for example, how many aircraft do they produce whose engines are made in Brazil

You miss the point..Embraer depends on exports...therefore it nees to be flexible to its client requirements on choice of engines and other fitouts...HAL, on the other hand, is primarily catering to Indian armed forces...As HAL-designed aircraft gets larger share of the pie, India would be in a position to demand "localisation" of the component makers...Which is what happened with Dhruv, given the large size of order, Snecma had to set up a facility in India to manufacture the engine...

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 10 Mar 2011 14:29

sameer_shelavale wrote:what for is the Z shaped pipe under the tail of ALH Dhruv ?
http://i44.tinypic.com/33c6kb5.jpg
?

From the looks of it, it can be a safety spring rod that prevents damage to the helo's tail if it tips backward by accident. And we can say thank you Captain Obvious if it is that.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 10 Mar 2011 15:13

^^^
Dhruv uses drop tanks??

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 10 Mar 2011 15:34

kvraghav wrote:^^^
Dhruv uses drop tanks??

It may have been performing helibatics looks like smoke winders.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Mar 2011 18:54

any long bowish pics yet?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Mar 2011 19:14

Dhruv proves a world-beater

“The army wanted the Dhruv to lift 200 kilos to Sonam; we managed to carry 600 kilos.”

Powering that world-beating performance is a new helicopter engine, called the Shakti, which HAL commissioned French engine-maker, Turbomeca, to design for operations along India’s high-altitude borders. It is this engine that makes the new Dhruv Mark III — the first five of which were delivered to the army this month — far superior to the Mark I and Mark II Dhruvs, which were built with a less versatile engine. The Shakti, which will start being built under licence at HAL soon, will now power an entire family of HAL-built helicopters: an armed version of the Dhruv; the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH); and the single-engine Light Utility Helicopter that is still on the drawing board.

HAL Bangalore has already begun handing over Dhruv Mark IIIs to the Leh-based 205 Aviation Squadron for operations in Siachen. With the military demanding 159 Dhruvs in quick time, HAL can hardly build these helicopters fast enough. This year’s production rate of 25 Dhruvs will be accelerated from 2012 to 36 helicopters annually. The current order includes 54 weaponised Dhruvs — termed Advanced Light Helicopter — Weapons Systems Integrated, or ALH-WSI — armed with anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles, rockets and a 20-millimetre turret gun. The ALH-WSI is scheduled to begin weapons trials in Orissa in April.

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Mar 2011 20:44

HAL has neither designed nor integrated ALH & the assembly line is in a mess. Inspite of ordering hundreds of Shakti engines, we will not get critical "hot section" technology now or in future. Even for LoH, they had to run to Turbomeca for integration of the engine to the helo.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Mar 2011 10:02

vic wrote:Even for LoH, they had to run to Turbomeca for integration of the engine to the helo.

Can you elaborate mate?

Cheers

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Mar 2011 15:19

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/07/ ... light.html

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 12 Mar 2011 00:56

Indian AF to Buy 64 Indigenous Combat Helos

viktor · Post by **viktor** » 12 Mar 2011 13:03

Rahul M wrote:great shot !

don't read too much into the numbers break-down, DDM confuses them all the time.

Shukriya RM. This one was clicked by your truly.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 12 Mar 2011 17:12

The LCH carries a homegrown gyro-stabilized sighting system comprising a high-performance thermal imager and laser rangefinder with a four-kilometer detection range.

Didn't we see an Israeli EO pod on LCH TD2 in Aero India?

Cheers....

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Mar 2011 18:51

Did the td-2 fly ? it was supposed to fly during or after the event

viktor · Post by **viktor** » 12 Mar 2011 19:15

TD-2 was not ready for flying during AI 2011. It might take still more time before we hear about the first flight of TD-2.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 12 Mar 2011 21:47

One of my Favorite shot of the LCH (HIGH-RES) ✈ http://www.airliners.net/photo/1881293/L/

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Mar 2011 22:06

sameer_shelavale wrote: http://i44.tinypic.com/33c6kb5.jpg
?

The Camo on that bird looks pretty good but I wonder why the incongruous "White" HAL emblem and the "white" lettering ?? Do they WANT the enemy to identify which service helicopter they are firing at ? Black lettering would have been much better, white just ruins the entire camo pattern. The US Army also changed their signage on their vehicles and helos after the Vietnam war to Black.

Anyway as to the L-shaped rod, I too think it is to prevent tail damage when the helicopter flares to land because helicopters usually take off pitch down and forward or straight up. Maybe somebody can tell us the exact name of that part.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Mar 2011 02:27

Those signs are temporary i.e. for company advertising purposes and can be removed once their purpose has been served.

Check this link...an Army Dhruv without those stickers...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 6.jpg.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Mar 2011 03:02

US Army soldiers exit an Indian army HAL Dhruv advanced light helicopter from the 201st Army Aviation Squadron during static load training on Camp Bundela, India

SagarNS · Post by **SagarNS** » 13 Mar 2011 09:30

Nice snap for IA Dhruv in action

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 20 Mar 2011 18:36

Two new LCH Shots from me > http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/02/10/lch/

LCH at Sunset (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1886053/L/

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 22 Mar 2011 23:13

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Two new LCH Shots from me > http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/02/10/lch/

LCH at Sunset (High-Res) > http://www.airliners.net/photo/1886053/L/

brilliant pictures Sir, especially the sunset one!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Mar 2011 02:14

Alligator, son of Black Shark

Each of the Russian choppers that is bidding for the Indian contracts is unique in its own way. But they include a helicopter that is truly one-of-a-kind and ahead of its time and that, despite all the difficulties it went through during development and commissioning, as is often the case with breakthrough weaponry, has finally been adopted by the Russian Army. Now it has a tremendous chance to become a star on international arms markets. It is the Ka-52 Alligator, son of the Ka-50 Black Shark. Not sure how a shark could have given birth to a crocodile? Here is the story…

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 Mar 2011 19:17

India DGCA Wants All Dhruv Civil Variants Inspected
Aviation Week

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Mar 2011 02:25

Paging Hari Nair sir.

If you would remember I had asked a few questions some time back about the stubbed wings creating lift. Though I don't understand the effect of downwash form the rotors on the aerodynamics of the wing, I know it will be a very complex CFD analysis, indeed discussion of which can not be carried out here.

However, I had a very naive question. adding the stub wings, though will increase the payload of the helicopter, though its high altitude performance and rate of climb will deteriorate. I am saying this because the disc loading of the helicopter while hovering will go up while the disc loading at cruise can be kept the same with the increase in lift through the wings. Am I right?

There will be many Dhruvs which will probably never be used at Siachen and mountain warfare. Can they be possibly fitted with UH-60L kind of wings for additional fuel/ammo. Has HAL considered that possibility? What was the outcome? Obviously I could do perfectly well without knowing any classified info.

One might argue, what else is the Dhruv WSI? but my question would then change to, why not have wing shape rather than the rod shaped boom. That will definitely, reduce drag and free the rotors for more forward thrust with the same disc loading.

Will be very thankful if you would reply.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Apr 2011 23:20

Did anybody notice Ajai Shukla article giving an interesting fact that even the pilot seats for 'indigenous' ALH are still imported?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Apr 2011 00:18

vic - seriously - give it a rest

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 03 Apr 2011 00:21

I also find it totally hilarious that India has borrowed the concept of "Helicopter" from the Germans (after all, Focke built the first functional helicopter) and tried to pass of ALH has indigenous.

HAL should be ashamed.

Dhruv should be scrapped for not being 100% indigenous and helicopters should be imported instead.

SagarNS · Post by **SagarNS** » 03 Apr 2011 00:38

And i humbly suggest, we rename the heli to "Pole star" to prevent further ashame.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Apr 2011 07:32

Stage 4 - Designing a product and building a prototype from imported, readily available parts with a considerable amount of parts sourced from local industry

5-10% of parts from local industry is not "considerable"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Apr 2011 08:54

vic wrote:Did anybody notice Ajai Shukla article giving an interesting fact that even the pilot seats for 'indigenous' ALH are still imported?

The Japanese achieved self sufficiency in technology long ago. India's inability rankles, but what's worse is that the fuel which is needed to fly the ALH is imported. India will be self sufficient the day the fuel is 100% indigenous. Compared with the Chinese we are nowhere in this regard.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Apr 2011 09:04

Folks,

We need to calm down a wee bit.

There is a great need for "making local", for sure.

However, there is this little thing called economics that at times creeps into an equation.

BEFORE we jump to conclusions is there a way to figure out if there is an Indian alternative that is cheaper? For, even if there is an alternative and it does not meet specs and cost, it is no use going down this "Made in India" path.

Then, as always, we have the French Syndrome: buy Rafale and we will consider upgrading the M2Ks for twice the price you think it is possible at.

So, until India can make a "Rafale" AND upgrade a M2K by herself India may have to buy that seat from Germany!!!

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 03 Apr 2011 11:04

Anujan wrote:I also find it totally hilarious that India has borrowed the concept of "Helicopter" from the Germans (after all, Focke built the first functional helicopter) and tried to pass of ALH has indigenous.

HAL should be ashamed.

Dhruv should be scrapped for not being 100% indigenous and helicopters should be imported instead.

If there was a relation between "borrowing the concept" and "scrapping the project" we won't have heard of any of the following -

> Little boy and Fat Man (who leveled Hiroshima and Nagasaki respectively)

> Klimov RD-45 and later Klimov VK-1 (engine that powered Mig15 (same Mig15 which created a panic attack from korea to pentagon on its first appearance)) was a complete copy of British Nene.

> Tu-4 (could be used in the newspaper strip under Find Five differences with B-29 Superfortress)

> B-2 bomber (compare with Horten Ho 229)

> Polish PT-91 "Tvyardy" (repainted T-72)

> Everything and Anything that PRC ever developed.

> Rockets, Space Missions, Satellites, Missiles, ICBM's (had Germans not thought it was a good idea to make V-2 none of these would have happened or atleast not so soon...coz everybody else just 'borrowed' there idea

)

jai · Post by **jai** » 03 Apr 2011 15:04

Unless there are copyright issues, we should copy and adapt any great idea. If it gives us better efficiency or effectiveness, no harm in adopting and adapting any good idea - even if it has been pioneered by some one else. This is a smart practice, as it helps to speed up your performance in the most efficient manner. You can imagine how human development may have occurred without knowledge sharing and learning best practices, we would have taken forever and would still be reinventing the wheel so to speak in many many areas. If copyrights exist, we should pay the required licence fee and use the good idea if it makes sense to !!

About a decade back, the company I used to work for, used to have a "Best copycat" award to encourage adopting and adapting smart ideas regardless of their origin and to bust the "not invented here" type of thinking. This is an industrial power house who happen to know a thing or two about technology and business - as they are a world leader in many of the sectors they operate in - including aircraft engines !

There is no point in abusing HAL for collaborating with MBB for bringing in their model and technology as Dhruv. Indeed, who knows - without it, we may have not had anything close to a domestic helicopter industry for many more years. What we must look at is how have they progressed from there. If you look at the LCH and now the work on LUH, one might think that HAL have indeed made good progress on their own after getting the initial technology injection from MBB.

What's wrong in this ? If we continue to import some parts because it makes technical and economical sense to - then what's wrong ? Should we not make planes and helicopters in this country just because no manufacturer today makes Pilot/ejection seats in India ?? Or should we delay launching our planes and choppers till we master this and every other technology for each part that goes into a plane or a chopper and make it in India regardless of the costs and time required ?? And what do the services do till then, import everything ?

Singh · Post by **Singh** » 03 Apr 2011 17:18

shiv wrote:
vic wrote:Did anybody notice Ajai Shukla article giving an interesting fact that even the pilot seats for 'indigenous' ALH are still imported?
The Japanese achieved self sufficiency in technology long ago. India's inability rankles, but what's worse is that the fuel which is needed to fly the ALH is imported. India will be self sufficient the day the fuel is 100% indigenous. Compared with the Chinese we are nowhere in this regard.

and as usual loved ur sarcasm Shiv...
Hope you got your answer Vic. By they sorry to disappoint u if u were expecting Kudos for reporting such utter gibberish frm Shukla's article

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Apr 2011 17:28

Meanwhile... SAAF welcomes Rooivalk

"We are proud to have been involved through its inception 25 years ago, of this proudly South African, indigenous, world-class and fully certified Rooivalk," he said.

The first launch of a prototype took place on February 11, 1990 — the same day former president Nelson Mandela was released from prison.

In 1996, state-owned defence industrial group Denel was given a production contract for the manufacture and delivery of 12 Rooivalk aircraft for the air force.

No CAG in SA?

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Apr 2011 21:43

Sarcasm gets no result except shows a pathetic attempt to cover incompetence of HAL. Did sarcasm help in 1962?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Apr 2011 21:50

vic wrote:Sarcasm gets no result except shows a pathetic attempt to cover incompetence of HAL. Did sarcasm help in 1962?

Why? What did HAL not do in 1962? Fact is F22, Rafale, Gripen etc use imported fuel. Is that helped by lack of sarcasm? Selective but continuous whinery is as ineffective as sarcasm in improving things, but sarcasm is more funny.

Someone sometime has got to tell you that your concerns have sympathy but not your continuous whining which invites mockery and sarcasm when someone gets sick and tired of the incessant wailing. When the opportunity arises you will see sarcasm again. Why worry? It may not help HAL, but it won't harm HAL either no?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 03 Apr 2011 22:25

Fact is, we have a helicopter that is designed for our needs (recall that no heli in the world has as much lifting capacity in Siachen *and* can also be deployed in the Thar). We have many such helicopters (more than a 100 delivered and still more on order), we have equipped many organizations using it, (IA, IAF, Coast Guard, BSF, ONGC, CRPF, a handful of state government and last I heard, Geological Survey of India, and Archeological survey of India!), we have exported it to a few countries and we have produced many variants of it (WSI, LCH, Mark 3).

The point I am making is that we tinker with it as we please and sell it to whoever we please, without having to sign 14 agreements and have 10 inspections per year from Gora sahibs.

Kudos to HAL.

Is every nut and bolt made in Gram Seva co-operative society today? No. Will every part be eventually made there? Probably not (economics of scale), but will critical parts be made there? Without any doubt. So what is the takleef here?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 Apr 2011 03:23

Decision time for Indian attack helicopter tender

While the formidable Apache AH64 D is considered a strong contender thanks to its battle proven capability in Afghanistan and in the Middle East and its package of weapons and technology never before seen in a helicopter in India, the Mi-28NE is a new generation attack helicopter capable of attacking ground targets as well as having the capacity of ar-to-air combat.

The Mi-28NE (NATO reporting name HAVOC) is a Russian all-weather day-night military tandem two-seat anti-armour attack helicopter.

Expecting an early decision on the attack helicopter deal, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified the US Congress earlier this year, for a possible sale of 50 T700-GE-701D engines, 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 12 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 812 AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 Hellfire II missiles, 245 Stinger Block I-92H missiles, and 23 Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors. The equipment constitutes the foreign military sales component of the sale while the 22 AH-64D Block III Apache platforms will be sold directly by Boeing to India, should it win the contract.