LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 30 Mar 2010 19:35

sawant wrote:Does the cockpit have bulletproof glass... also I wonder if it wud have been better to have a Comanche style tail to complement the stealth features

Can't think of a single attack helo that doesn't have bulletproof glass. As for the Comanche style tail, it is called a Fenestron and is patented by Eurocopter Inc. If they do decide to incorporate one in the LCH, Eurocopter Inc. gets a cut.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 30 Mar 2010 19:41

ArmenT wrote:
sawant wrote:Does the cockpit have bulletproof glass... also I wonder if it wud have been better to have a Comanche style tail to complement the stealth features
Can't think of a single attack helo that doesn't have bulletproof glass. As for the Comanche style tail, it is called a Fenestron and is patented by Eurocopter Inc. If they do decide to incorporate one in the LCH, Eurocopter Inc. gets a cut.

A model of the LOH, has the 'Fenestron' style tail?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2010 19:43

the flat panels might simplify manufacturing , repair and fitment of titanium armour plates around bathtub and
avionics/engine bays.

are helicopter rotors metal or composite these days? if composite they would have no RCS.

hopefully Helina, rocket pods, mistral aam, countermeasures developments can proceed swiftly in parallel. we need 100s of this bad boy.

jimit · Post by **jimit** » 30 Mar 2010 19:45

I have a question

Is the HMD gun 20mm?
Why have they installed a small caliber gun?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 Mar 2010 19:45

24 attack helis that are required are going to stay for 2 decades , if LCH isnt finalized within 1-2 yrs , apache will be ordered , and that means LCH joins LCA league ,
the RFI is already floated .

Meanwhile LCH has to be better or equal to Apache longbow ,
are they going to fix radar on it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2010 19:46

Meanwhile LCH has to be better or equal to Apache longbow

you kidding? longbow is uber-expensive, complicated and much heavier. if IA goes for a small apache
order I do not expect the longbow version, just the basic one.

we need 100s of LCH whether or not some small lot of apache's comes in.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 19:49

sawant wrote:Does the cockpit have bulletproof glass... also I wonder if it wud have been better to have a Comanche style tail to complement the stealth features

of course it is bulletproof glass.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 Mar 2010 19:50

then exactly what role LCH is going to perform, separate RFI for 24 attack helicopters means what?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2010 19:50

Umm why would european patents be necessarily applicable in India? At best it will block us from selling it in Europe? We can always make minor modification and get a patent in India.

In any case we have not reversed engineered it or gotten its detailed drawings.

Let Eurocopter "lagao chakkar" of Indian courts.

And if they really want a cut, let HAL sell the copter to IAF for 1 ruppee.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 19:53

Vishnu wrote:Another image and HAL press release on my page ndtv.com/vishnu

Please do join the page ... Am getting flak for not doing enough to bring in viewers onto my NDTV page !

Cheers
Vishnu

I've 'signed-in' with FB. will that do ?

thanks once again.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Mar 2010 19:53

Long bow is for the plains onlee, no action in the himalayas sector.
LCH is built to operate at those altitudes - might even go to siachen. Will go to laddakh and NE for sure with good weapons load.

Great going to the LCH team.

Was''t there a plan for the forces to order 100+ LCH's? The attack 24 helo RFP might well end up with Apache Longbow.

Expect some defence realted news when Ombaba lands in Nai Dilli later this year.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2010 19:54

24 attack helicopters means what?

you think 24 attack helis is enough for india? the Mi24/35 are getting long in tooth, inspite of getting tamam
upg few yrs back. I think plan is to replace them with something in their hefty category.

even sher khan 1st airborne div alone deploys with 300-400 mix of attack and transport helis into the theatre.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Mar 2010 19:54

Vishnu wrote:Another image and HAL press release on my page ndtv.com/vishnu

Please do join the page ... Am getting flak for not doing enough to bring in viewers onto my NDTV page !

Cheers
Vishnu

i've signed in as Gagan. Left a message

Vishnu Som - BRF's favorite DDM

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Mar 2010 19:58

ArmenT wrote:
sawant wrote:Does the cockpit have bulletproof glass... also I wonder if it wud have been better to have a Comanche style tail to complement the stealth features
Can't think of a single attack helo that doesn't have bulletproof glass. As for the Comanche style tail, it is called a Fenestron and is patented by Eurocopter Inc. If they do decide to incorporate one in the LCH, Eurocopter Inc. gets a cut.

[Jingo Dreaming] Why not go the NOTAR way? [/Jingo Dreaming]

Cheers....

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Mar 2010 19:59

Sher khan uses at least 3 types of attack helos
1. Cobra / Super cobra still in use with the marine corps
2. Apache Longbow with the regular army formations
3. The light observation + Attack MH-6 Little bird. For close in support to troops.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2010 20:06

NOTAR and Fenestron are not as efficient as the conventional tail rotor something critical for an attack heli which is supposed to operate in Indian conditions whether it be in Jaisalmer or Laddakh/Leh.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Mar 2010 20:11

Longbow has two (Counter-rotating?) tail rotors.

The tail rotor has been found to be specially susceptible to small arms / rpg fire, and this one vulnerability exists for all attack helos.

On the longbow there is an attempt to have two tailrotors to minimize this.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2010 20:15

I believe someone posted here many years ago that notar bleeds too much main engine power compared to
the conventional tail rotor which I believe is driven by a shaft through the tail boom?

fenestron - for a while it seemed all the rage like dauphin, but even eurocopter seems to have skipped it
for its latest helis, so obviously some pitfalls must be there...looking at NH90 pic it seems like fitting a
big and meaty conventional tail rotor is not possible with fenestron

http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/nh90ger90.jpg

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Mar 2010 20:16

On the longbow there is an attempt to have two tailrotors to minimize this.

Are you sure??

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2010 20:27

Gagan wrote:Longbow has two (Counter-rotating?) tail rotors.

No it does not have a contra-rotating tail rotor , however unlike the conventional 4 bladed tail rotor it has two twin rotors with 2 blades each at 55 deg while in case of former afaik it should be 90 deg between each of the two blades.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Mar 2010 20:34

Any specific reason they would have them at an angle < 90? Maybe because of small arms fire?

arya · Post by **arya** » 30 Mar 2010 20:37

good work HAL

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2010 20:39

They say to reduce noise .

http://tinyurl.com/yfrr99f

We need Bangalore jingos to take such close up snaps of the desi TOYs .

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Mar 2010 20:54

Hmm. Check out this pic http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... Flight.jpg

The LCH has full glass cockpit. Looks neat! Both for driver and the back seat wso. Very nice indeed.

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 30 Mar 2010 21:09

deleted post!!

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 30 Mar 2010 21:13

Singha wrote:Meanwhile LCH has to be better or equal to Apache longbow

you kidding? longbow is uber-expensive, complicated and much heavier. if IA goes for a small apache
order I do not expect the longbow version, just the basic one.

we need 100s of LCH whether or not some small lot of apache's comes in.

I think we need atleast 200 LCH. The cockpit layout looks similar to the japanese kawasaki OH-1. Which is thier light attack platform. A 30-40 Apache or Ka-50 would complement a force of 200 odd LCH

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 21:36

Samay wrote:then exactly what role LCH is going to perform, separate RFI for 24 attack helicopters means what?

more as a 1 to 1 replacement for the old and aging Mi-24/35's of which we have 20 for the strike corps. btw, wasn't it 22 and not 24 for the RFI ?

although if the LCH comes along quickly we might see that one canceled, but low chance of that happening.
the LCH is obviously going to be lesser capable than the apache (twice its weight) and similar sized attack helos but it has (or will have) one capability that no other attack helicopter in the world has, namely operating with combat load in the higher himalayas up to 20,000 feet or so. apache and the like can barely fly to those heights, let alone fight !

sensor wise, no it will not have a radar, few attack helos have one but otherwise it will a full spectrum of state-of-the-art sensors, ECM and a MAWS as well. even a DIRCM is in the works !

IAF plans to get 65 and IA wants to get 114, making a total of 179.

jimit wrote:I have a question

Is the HMD gun 20mm?
Why have they installed a small caliber gun?

20 mm 'gun' is NOT a small caliber gun, those are also known as cannons.
copy -pasting a discussion from ajai shukla's blog that I had read long back that should answer your questions :

fighterclass said...

max said...

The other thing I realised is all helicopters in its class / era are equipped with 30mm turret while this only has a 20mm nexter.
___________________________________
not true:
ah-64:30mm
mangusta:20mm
tiger:30mm in french version. no chin mounted gun in german version,uses podded 12.7mm or 20mm.
ka-50:30mm
rooivalk:20mm
ah-1z: 20mm
mi-28:30mm
mi-25:12.7mm
mi-35:23mm
........................
so you see a lot of both older and newer helos do use the lower calib guns.
do note that the commanche also used a 20mm cannon.

One of the main reasons is that at around 5 tonnes, a 30mm gun firing in auto mode would have tremendous recoil, enough to seriously destabilize the craft.

all the helos with more than 20 mm cannons are much heavier than the LCH, in the medium to heavy class. those can handle the recoil better than a light bird like LCH could.
___________________________________
max said...

Although its firing velocity is better, can it compensate the damage a 30mm slug can cause?
___________________________________
of course, a 20mm slug would have lesser damage but the question is what type of targets do you intend to use it upon ?
"BOTH" can shred thin skinned vehicles but is 30mm enough to incapacitate an armoured vehicle ?
hardly !
so what is the use of a heavier 30mm round (which you would carry a much lower number of) if all you are going to do with it is shoot at personnel ! worse, it would also give you a bad recoil to boot !
the 20mm does the same thing without a recoil and you would also carry many more of the stuff !

of course, if you mean that the sheer devastation of the 30mm is unmatched in badness, I'm all with you !!

Broadsword said...

To add to what fighterclass posted above on the choice between "adequate damage" versus "near-assured destruction" --- which is what the choice between 20 mm and 30 mm actually boils down to --- please remember that choosing a lighter turret gun also allows a higher rate of fire.

So you have a higher hit probability with a 20 mm gun, not just because of the lower recoil; you're also pumping out more lead... even if they are in smaller pieces!

And you can carry more rounds on board in straight numerical terms.

Remember, most armies the world over have switched from personal weapons that fired 7.62 mm ammunition to 5.56 mm for similar reasons. "Adequate damage" is damage enough.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 30 Mar 2010 21:38

LCH Completes ‘Perfect’ Maiden Flight in City

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 21:42

anirban_aim wrote:OT - @ Rahul M, I noticed that you've changed your location Revolutionary spirit if I may say

glad to see someone noticed !

my small tribute to the hero.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Mar 2010 21:43

High resolution pics on LIVEFIST. Check them out now.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/he ... er-in.html

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2010 21:52

Rahul M wrote:
anirban_aim wrote:OT - @ Rahul M, I noticed that you've changed your location Revolutionary spirit if I may say
glad to see someone noticed ! my small tribute to the hero.

I did too, Birsa Munda rocks.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 30 Mar 2010 22:01

Gagan wrote:Sher khan uses at least 3 types of attack helos
1. Cobra / Super cobra still in use with the marine corps
2. Apache Longbow with the regular army formations
3. The light observation + Attack MH-6 Little bird. For close in support to troops.

If things go the way they are, we may end up with FOUR types of attack helos

1) HAL Lancer (light attack and observation, for COIN)
2) LCH
3) HAL Dhruv (weaponised version)
4) Apache or Ka 50

Though I don't understand why we cannot replace Mi 25/35s with LCH directly, instead of Apaches/ Ka 50s. Is it due to LCH taking time?

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 30 Mar 2010 22:09

http://galeria.aviateam.pl/albums/userp ... towski.jpg

Compare Dhruv WSI above with LCH below

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... H2+(1).jpg

I am not too impressed, hope final version is much better.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Mar 2010 22:09

Vishnu wrote:The pic on ndtv.com/vishnu was forwarded to me by HAL ... Thanks

Vishnu I could kiss you right now !! that is simply awesome !!

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 30 Mar 2010 22:11

Matlab,, its seems only rear seat and a couple of changes are done from Dhruv WSI in LCH.
The finishing also looks a bit off....
Sori 2 insert a -ve comment, though i also feel elated dat it has finally taken off

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 30 Mar 2010 22:14

Looks very nice!

The stub wings seem to have positions for 2 hard points each. I wonder if they are considering IR suppressor attachments in the design at all later on, given how the exhaust is pointing up.

What is the % of parts common with the Dhruv - might help ease the logistics at high altitude areas and simplify maintainance.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 30 Mar 2010 22:22

Though I don't understand why we cannot replace Mi 25/35s with LCH directly, instead of Apaches/ Ka 50s. Is it due to LCH taking time?

it not due to time, LCH is in different class altogether , as the name itself Light Combat it is in the light wight class.
It can not take lot of amo in but the Apache is one big beast same with MI
MI can even can carry combat troops proved that with air support n get them back, can carry lots of amo, the Apache/K-50 are high on maintenance when we compare it to the lighter ones like the LCH

evan as USA has on of the best Attack Helo Apache they still use the
super cobra
MH-6
for different roles

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 30 Mar 2010 22:23

^ Who cares what role etc, the machine looks good and will find roles for itself!
Beauty! One reason to visit Aero India-11

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Mar 2010 22:25

I am not too impressed, hope final version is much better.

don't know how to break this to you but they are trying to built an attack helicopter that can fight in the mountains, not trying to impress people.

I wonder if they are considering IR suppressor attachments in the design at all later on, given how the exhaust is pointing up.

apparently IR suppressors eat in the power figures so that's an interesting question. we did retrofit them on the hinds though.

1) HAL Lancer (light attack and observation, for COIN)
2) LCH
3) HAL Dhruv (weaponised version)
4) Apache or Ka 50

is the lancer still used ? I thought they had given up after terrorists started firing at any helos ?
you missed the Mi-17 which too can be fitted with rockets.

truthfully, only LCH and the attack helo RFI one would be pure attack helicopters, rest are utility/transport helicopters with an attack capability.

Though I don't understand why we cannot replace Mi 25/35s with LCH directly, instead of Apaches/ Ka 50s. Is it due to LCH taking time?

or because the Mi-24's are long in the tooth and IAF can't afford to wait for LCH.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Mar 2010 22:47

Ashish J wrote: I am not too impressed, hope final version is much better.

IDK what you were expecting. It looks same as the models that we have been seeing for some time. To each his own, but I am extremely impressed by it looks. IMO, it is the sleekest heli I have ever seen. And though looks do not matter, the sleek looks of LCH do make this jingo very happy.

I really want to see LCH is grey camo, man it will be a looker.

Marten wrote:
Ashish J wrote:Matlab,, its seems only rear seat and a couple of changes are done from Dhruv WSI in LCH.
Really? Did the same with my premier padmini - moved the front passenger seat to the back, right behind the driver. Awesome finish too.. must be the same process, no?

I myself fail to see much visual familiarity b/n Dhruv and LCH.