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PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011 18:50 
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Tarmak 007 is no paki website....


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PostPosted: 23 Aug 2011 17:30 
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Just got buzzed by a Mi-17 over whitefield, nothing extraordinary except that it was carrying a lot of fire power! This bird has been flying over my office regularly for the past 1 week and this is the first time I've sighted it.


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PostPosted: 25 Aug 2011 21:02 
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Image

Guys please ignore if there some error in the Specs as this what i found from different sources.


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 11:10 
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Livefist update on WSI Dhruv, LCH and LUH


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 13:25 
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Pandav wrote:
Guys please ignore if there some error in the Specs as this what i found from different sources.


Do you know why you were banned from Indian defence. This same image has been posted by you as "Pandora" on there.


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 15:19 
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shiv wrote:
Pandav wrote:
Guys please ignore if there some error in the Specs as this what i found from different sources.


Do you know why you were banned from Indian defence. This same image has been posted by you as "Pandora" on there.


I made some sissy cried So he reported me :mrgreen: and yes i posted that but now am regreting mate why i posted there :cry: (Thanks to yusuf and AV to open the real pandora box )


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 16:01 
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Rgds stats about Chinbokk crashes,the latest AMR (Indian MIlitary Review) carries an article about Chinooks in Afghanistan with full details/stats of NATO Chinook crashes and the reasons why.It is quite illuminating.Small arms and RPGs are one reason,the others are bad landings,turning turtle upon landing,etc.Will add details later on.


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 18:53 
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Pandav wrote:
Guys please ignore if there some error in the Specs as this what i found from different sources.

You've got one very obvious error in your chart.
Power plant: Both LCH and wz10 say 1000 kW and TAI says 1014 kW, but when the power is expressed in horsepower, LCH has more HP than the other two (1400 vs. 1340 and 1361).

Nice work though.


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 21:16 
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ArmenT wrote:
Pandav wrote:
Guys please ignore if there some error in the Specs as this what i found from different sources.

You've got one very obvious error in your chart.
Power plant: Both LCH and wz10 say 1000 kW and TAI says 1014 kW, but when the power is expressed in horsepower, LCH has more HP than the other two (1400 vs. 1340 and 1361).

Nice work though.


Thanks mate but you see i already mentioned below about it that things might differ with Chinese heli :roll:


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 23:36 
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As much as I love comparison debates it is worth pointing out WZ-10 is not light attack helicopter.


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PostPosted: 28 Aug 2011 23:46 
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Pandav, while we appreciate your efforts I would rather we don't start comparison in India threads because the chances of a pi$$ing contest are high. the newb/misc thread or internation aviation thread is a better place.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 07:34 
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Rahul M wrote:
Pandav, while we appreciate your efforts I would rather we don't start comparison in India threads because the chances of a pi$$ing contest are high. the newb/misc thread or internation aviation thread is a better place.


Pandav - this is a very valid point that people don't seem to learn especially because it is encouraged on Paki forums.

Let me ask you a basic question. If an Indian LCH were to attack Chinese land forces how would the Chinese respond. I will make it MCQ for convenience and answer it as well. Please state if you have any quibbles.

Indian LCH attacks Chinese land forces. China's response would be
1. Run away.
2. Send two WZ 10s
3. Try and shoot the LCH down with ground to air defences.

The Chinese will not run away. Sending to WZ10s is possible but fraught with danger to them as they enter the battle zone. It will be several minutes before they can fly in even if they have AAMs and the LCH may finish its job and go away by the time they arrive. The Chinese will try and shoot the LCH down real soon using AA fire and SAMs. So the Chinese "reply" to LCH wil be anti-aircraft fire. Not WZ10

Similarly the Indian response to an attack by Chinese WZ10 will be SAMs and AA fire. Not LCH

If WZ10 is not the correct response to LCH, and LCH is not the correct response to WZ10 - why compare them? Now instead of LCH suppose India sends two Mi 35 or maybe in future two Apaches/Mi 28. Will the Chinese respond with six WZ10? No they will respond instantly with ground fire and may send missile and air attacks to take out the Indian helicopter base.

Unless you are a salesman who is selling attack helicopters and want a buyer to have all the specs of each helo readily visible a comparison chart such as the one you have made, such a chart is is useless. Sorry if I am being harsh. Too many enthusiasts spend too much time comparing missiles or planes or helos as if helos are needed against other helos or surface to surface missiles needed against other surface to surface missiles. No. That is not how things work. The fact that the media also make such comparisons (India Today/Outlook etc) only shows the ignorance of the people who write those articles.

Comparisons of "My d**k is bigger/longer/harder" are less valid than where I can actually use mine, long or short, hard or soft.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 07:54 
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Quote:
Comparisons of "My d**k is bigger/longer/harder" are less valid than where I can actually use mine, long or short, hard or soft.
:rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 09:10 
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Pandav, I suggest you to make as much as comparisons that you can make. Why?
That's because the more the Indian products and Indian strenghts gets highlighted, the better. Also ensure that you don't compare a thing with the Pakis. They lost out long back and no more the need to compare anything with the losers. But you must try the Chinese, U.S and European systems for comparisons more and more in their respective categories. Not only related to military but others as well. Shortly India is going to overtake the Chinese in terms of mobile phones. Then you'll have another area open for comparison. :lol:


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 11:54 
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shiv wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
Pandav, while we appreciate your efforts I would rather we don't start comparison in India threads because the chances of a pi$$ing contest are high. the newb/misc thread or internation aviation thread is a better place.


Pandav - this is a very valid point that people don't seem to learn especially because it is encouraged on Paki forums.

Let me ask you a basic question. If an Indian LCH were to attack Chinese land forces how would the Chinese respond. I will make it MCQ for convenience and answer it as well. Please state if you have any quibbles.

Indian LCH attacks Chinese land forces. China's response would be
1. Run away.
2. Send two WZ 10s
3. Try and shoot the LCH down with ground to air defences.

The Chinese will not run away. Sending to WZ10s is possible but fraught with danger to them as they enter the battle zone. It will be several minutes before they can fly in even if they have AAMs and the LCH may finish its job and go away by the time they arrive. The Chinese will try and shoot the LCH down real soon using AA fire and SAMs. So the Chinese "reply" to LCH wil be anti-aircraft fire. Not WZ10

Similarly the Indian response to an attack by Chinese WZ10 will be SAMs and AA fire. Not LCH

If WZ10 is not the correct response to LCH, and LCH is not the correct response to WZ10 - why compare them? Now instead of LCH suppose India sends two Mi 35 or maybe in future two Apaches/Mi 28. Will the Chinese respond with six WZ10? No they will respond instantly with ground fire and may send missile and air attacks to take out the Indian helicopter base.

Unless you are a salesman who is selling attack helicopters and want a buyer to have all the specs of each helo readily visible a comparison chart such as the one you have made, such a chart is is useless. Sorry if I am being harsh. Too many enthusiasts spend too much time comparing missiles or planes or helos as if helos are needed against other helos or surface to surface missiles needed against other surface to surface missiles. No. That is not how things work. The fact that the media also make such comparisons (India Today/Outlook etc) only shows the ignorance of the people who write those articles.

Comparisons of "My d**k is bigger/longer/harder" are less valid than where I can actually use mine, long or short, hard or soft.


Comparison is useful for psyops reasons and also to highlight technological advances and capabilities compared to the enemy.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 13:52 
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21
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shiv wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
Pandav, while we appreciate your efforts I would rather we don't start comparison in India threads because the chances of a pi$$ing contest are high. the newb/misc thread or internation aviation thread is a better place.


Pandav - this is a very valid point that people don't seem to learn especially because it is encouraged on Paki forums.

Let me ask you a basic question. If an Indian LCH were to attack Chinese land forces how would the Chinese respond. I will make it MCQ for convenience and answer it as well. Please state if you have any quibbles.

Indian LCH attacks Chinese land forces. China's response would be
1. Run away.
2. Send two WZ 10s
3. Try and shoot the LCH down with ground to air defences.

The Chinese will not run away. Sending to WZ10s is possible but fraught with danger to them as they enter the battle zone. It will be several minutes before they can fly in even if they have AAMs and the LCH may finish its job and go away by the time they arrive. The Chinese will try and shoot the LCH down real soon using AA fire and SAMs. So the Chinese "reply" to LCH wil be anti-aircraft fire. Not WZ10

Similarly the Indian response to an attack by Chinese WZ10 will be SAMs and AA fire. Not LCH

If WZ10 is not the correct response to LCH, and LCH is not the correct response to WZ10 - why compare them? Now instead of LCH suppose India sends two Mi 35 or maybe in future two Apaches/Mi 28. Will the Chinese respond with six WZ10? No they will respond instantly with ground fire and may send missile and air attacks to take out the Indian helicopter base.

Unless you are a salesman who is selling attack helicopters and want a buyer to have all the specs of each helo readily visible a comparison chart such as the one you have made, such a chart is is useless. Sorry if I am being harsh. Too many enthusiasts spend too much time comparing missiles or planes or helos as if helos are needed against other helos or surface to surface missiles needed against other surface to surface missiles. No. That is not how things work. The fact that the media also make such comparisons (India Today/Outlook etc) only shows the ignorance of the people who write those articles.

Comparisons of "My d**k is bigger/longer/harder" are less valid than where I can actually use mine, long or short, hard or soft.


Shivji, I completely agree to your point that if one wants to compare who would have the upper hand in battle, one should compare the weapons and anti-weapons and not weapon vs weapon.

Having said that, it is also a competition to build the most effective weapon for a given objective ... In that respect, IMHO there is no flaw in saying you, me, tom, dick and harry set out to build a weapon for a purpose ... Now let us compare who has made the best one!


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 14:33 
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indranilroy wrote:
In that respect, IMHO there is no flaw in saying you, me, tom, dick and harry set out to build a weapon for a purpose ... Now let us compare who has made the best one!

In fact this "comparison of who has the longest best is the problem. It is the problem because specifications are easy to compare but what is forgotten is the role of that system in the entire war machine set up and how well a given machine can slot into a given armed force.

The phallic analogy actually becomes very relevant here. On length alone one may exceed another and be declared "winner" but what is left out of the comparison is the attractiveness of the body that carries the organ in question and the ability of that body to gain and hold on to a mate long before any question of length comes into play. The selection of mate is not done by length. The effectiveness of a combat helicopter in a given armed force is not determined by its weight, power plant, load carrying capacity or armament. These comparisons of "best" are based solely on specs. You are well informed enough to know the variables that come into play here and they include serviceability, lifetime cost and MTBF. The servicability of a given machine may be - for example 80% in Russia but only 20% in Angola. How and when are these comparisons done. And by whom? It's always "X is bigger". "No Y is bigger"


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 14:48 
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I have no problem with comparison as long as it is not done in the more serious threads because they tend to be troll magnets.


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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2011 15:45 
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Shiv ji, again I agree with you that comparing specifications is the most naive of all comparisons, especially for a war machine.

But personally I would love to read an in depth comparison of say a Rafale vs EF vs Mig-35 or Arjun vs T-90 vs M1s. I would only be prejudiced if I say that I don't want to read a comparison of the LCH vs it's contemporaries. I see nothing wrong in analyzing the effectiveness of two or more machines which were built for the same purpose. But this is my opinion :).

Unfortunately, one can't put up an analysis on a poster ... hence we see all the companies (HAL included) putting up spec-wise comparisons at stalls and brochures.

Rahul da, I agree with you ... there will be no more posts from me on this topic on this thread ... anyways I have stated my opinion and completely understand what Shiv ji is saying ... Shivji, I would love to hear more from you in this regard ... I consider myself a newbie in front of you, especially when it comes to history of deployments ... may be on the newbie thread?


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PostPosted: 31 Aug 2011 08:40 
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Mi-17-v5 helicopter to be based in the Punjab - First lot from Russia arrives in a couple of weeks- excerpts :
Quote:
The IAF aims to utilise the Mi-17-V5 helicopters for special heli-borne operations, air-maintenance, transportation of troops and equipment, search and rescue, casualty evacuation and in armed helicopter roles.

For long, Mi-17 chopper variants have been used by para-commandos of the Army and also the Special Operations Group of the NSG. The latest variant will be able to drop 25 troops in one go and from multiple on-board exit points.
The new variant will have the ability to allow the pilots to start the engines at altitudes of 6,000 m (about 21,000 ft) thus helping in servicing various high-altitude posts in the Himalayas. Each of the two engines can generate 2,200 hp of power. This is a significant improvement over the previous version which has two engines of 1,950 hp each.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110831/nation.htm#6


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2011 10:53 
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Location: "There is no greater weapon than a prepared mind."
Rudra

Quote:
New Delhi: Army's aerial firepower capabilities will get a boost as it is soon going to induct the attack version of indigenously-built Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) 'Rudra'.

The 'Rudra' is the first weaponised chopper built in the country and will be inducted into the Army Aviation Corps in the current financial year, army officials said.

Armed with an array of guns, rocket pods, air-to-air and anti-tank guided missiles, the fleet of the weaponised helicopters, the "heavily-loaded" ALH, has been approved for induction as part of modernisation and capability development efforts by the government, they said.

Integration of the weaponised aerial platform into the army will provide the field commanders the ability to apply decisive combat power at critical times anywhere in the battle field, they said.

Rudra is an armed variant of the ALH Dhruva chopper and "necessary changes have been made in the airframe of the chopper to give it agility and speed to make it a suitable support weapon for the ground troops".

The chopper has been named 'Rudra', one of the names of Lord Shiva who is worshipped as the destroyer of enemies, to signify the helicopter's firepower and capabilities. .

The HAL is also in the process of developing a Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) which will be inducted in both the army and the Indian Air Force.

The 5.5 tonne class twin engine chopper has a number of advanced features such as Automatic Flight Control System, Integrated Dynamic System, Full Authority Digital Electronic Control can cruise at speeds of 250 km per hour.


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2011 11:15 
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rudra seems a good enough name !!


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2011 13:07 
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a good choice of name ;)


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2011 13:39 
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Singha wrote:
a good choice of name ;)


Finally all your dream weapon ideas and posts on BR get some recognition..... :D


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PostPosted: 06 Sep 2011 19:44 
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posts moved to viewtopic.php?p=1159044#p1159044


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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2011 04:20 
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Indian attack chopper expected by year end
Quote:
NEW DELHI, Sept. 9 (UPI) -- The Indian army will induct the attack version of the indigenously built advanced light helicopter into the army aviation corps this year, a defense official said.

The Rudra light combat helicopter is a "heavily loaded" version of the advanced light helicopter Dhruv. The Rudra is armed with an array of guns and rocket pods as well as air-to-air and anti-tank missiles, a report by the Press Trust of India said, without naming any army official.

The PTI report gave no other details or dates.

The Rudra first flew in March 2010.

India's army has been waiting for the armed version since the utility helicopter Dhruv, built by Hindustan Aeronautics, entered service in 2002. Around 160 are believed to have been ordered by the army and navy from the company's assembly plant in Bangalore.

Even the unarmed utility version, which also is available for civilian use, was a long time coming.

The Dhruv project was announced in 1984 when Hindustan Aeronautics began designing the aircraft with assistance from the German aerospace company Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Blohm.

MBB was formed as the result of several mergers in the late 1960s and which in 1989 was bought by Daimler-Benz Aerospace. MBB is now part of EADS.

The Dhruv first flew in 1992 and has been exported first to Ecuador in 2008 for $50 million and then to Nepal and Israel.

Hindustan Aeronautics won the Ecuadorian order amid strong competition from Elbit, Eurocopter and Kazan.

"HAL's offer of $50.7 million for seven helicopters was about 32 percent lower than the second lowest bid from Elbit," a June 2008 Indian Ministry of Defense statement said.

But exports have suffered because of an accident in October 2009. One of the seven sold to the Ecuadorian air force crashed during a military parade, leaving two crew injured.

The helicopter veered off course while flying in formation with two other helicopters over an air force base near Quito and hit the ground nose first, the PTI reported at the time.

The Ecuadorian air force grounded the other six Dhruv until an investigation was completed. The investigation concluded pilot error was to blame.

In April, four Indian army personnel were killed in a Dhruv helicopter crash in north Sikkim state, near the Chinese border.

The Dhruv helicopter carries up to 12 passenger and two pilots sitting side by side, with a maximum takeoff weight of 12,125 pounds. Maximum speed of 180 mph is from two Shakti turboshaft engines or two Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 turboshaft engines. The service ceiling is around 27,500 feet.

The Rudra version has the two pilots sitting one behind the other.


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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2011 07:51 
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Quote:
The Rudra version has the two pilots sitting one behind the other.


Are we talking about LCH?,I thought it is WSI


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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2011 09:07 
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sarabpal.s wrote:
Quote:
The Rudra version has the two pilots sitting one behind the other.


Are we talking about LCH?,I thought it is WSI


You are not introduced to the term DDM yet? BTW it was DDM at its best!


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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2011 15:46 
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Took this video of a Dhruv carrying a net-like contraption. It is cleary visible in the first 2-3 seconds only. I think it is the below-mentioned gun carriage system. Could anyone confirm?

http://www.defencenow.com/news/240/indi ... _guns.html


Last edited by saje on 21 Sep 2011 05:54, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Sep 2011 16:37 
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Location: "There is no greater weapon than a prepared mind."
Can view the video..


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011 12:27 
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LUH engine bid

:( hope they stick to shakti


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011 14:52 
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AWST Sept.5th issue has sveeral news items reg. IAF's future procurement plans including helos.

Attack helo.Apache leads.Both MI-28.Ap. performed well,Ap. more advanced in night ops.
Heavy-lift,MI-26 vs Chinook.Russian giant offers better economics with the type already in service.Upgraded helo demonstrated with new glass cockpit,etc."50-50" as for the LUH-the Eurocopter birdie vs Kamov's. Total est. this decade is 700 helos.


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PostPosted: 28 Sep 2011 16:15 
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^ Sirji, I felt I just heard a soldier relaying status from the frontline.
Please be more elaborative.

No offense intended. :)


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 08:33 
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Do the Mi-17V5s have a radar built onto the nose ?


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 10:33 
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No sir.
None of the mi-17 have any radar.
Newer birds have terrain sensors none the less.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 13:00 
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Bob V wrote:
Do the Mi-17V5s have a radar built onto the nose ?


Most choppers if they ever carry a radar carry navigational/weather radar.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ers-02755/

Quote:
The $310 million worth of upgrades under the reported deal will be carried out on 46 Mi-8, 78 Mi-17 and 48 Mi-171V helicopters to add instrument landing system radars, very high-frequency omni-directional range radars, an advanced weather radar and a digital moving map display. The Mi-17s will also receive Bharat Electronics Tarang 1B radar warning receivers, and missile approach warning systems.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 13:11 
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will finally make them capable of adverse weather and night ops with much higher margin of safety. stuff like this comes as std kit probably in US army helis, for us its always some afterthought. basic stuff to carry on a war 24x7 basis.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 14:52 
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^^^All these bells and whistles become extremely important if you consider our terrain and weather problem in the North-East and North India. Them mountains are extremely trecherous and weather tends to pack up at short notice.


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 16:22 
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need wire cutters on all our helos

with our penchant for stringing wires and cables wherever we feel like - ingress and egress in SHBO ops is a nail biting affair


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2011 17:16 
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I reason why I asked is I saw a pic of the bird, with a modified nose section (most likely a weather radar). I don't know if it is meant for us or a prototype.


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