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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2011 22:58 
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shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:
helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around.


Its not so much about runways as the other infrastructure - hangars, engine maintainance. Technicians, workshops and suppliers of parts - many of which have to be duplicated by the army while they already exist with the air force. the other thing is that if a half hearted job is done (open fields) - it leaves no room for expansion should the army later need a runway to operate UAVs or some such thing. So there will be some expensive duplication unless some sharing agreement is worked out.


Shiv, the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) Squadrons (called Recce & Obs Squadrons) already have bases which are independent of IAF bases. Same goes for UAV assets as well. You see, most of the time the AAC bases are situated as per the IA requirement and not as per the available infra from IAF. Plus it is far simpler to build a heliport than set-up infra at IAF bases -which may as it is have space constraint. Also, IAF bases are positioned to support IAF's POV about fighting the air-war. IA might want to base and deploy the assets more closer to formations they are likely to operate with.


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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2011 23:05 
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no, that's why the argument for expansion. both the rudra and the LCH is being majorly pushed by IA.

personally I find the US military's division of helo assets more sensible. what we can have is joint training when possible for cost savings.


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PostPosted: 28 Dec 2011 23:21 
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Just a thought on a simple way to distribute aviation assets. Anything primarily flying 10,000 ft below, belongs to the army, the rest to the Air force.


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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2011 21:23 
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ShauryaT wrote:
Just a thought on a simple way to distribute aviation assets. Anything primarily flying 10,000 ft below, belongs to the army, the rest to the Air force.
this will muddle the water more... A better demarcation would be, all rotary assets be with IA and fixed Wing with the IAF. All three services would operate UAVs and UCAVs.


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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2011 21:25 
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IAF needs helos too for many functions, utility, SAR etc etc.


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PostPosted: 29 Dec 2011 23:22 
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IA should have an independent force structure to support these choppers - If IAF and IA are going to use the same birds they can have some common training or depos at the most, but they should have completely seperate command structure, pilots, maintenance personel, deployments, spares and extensive training in working with the IA deployments and insertions - Cold start mandates such changes.

If they try to share them with the IAF, it is no going to be much different than what it is now. Redundency and additional costs are negligible compared to the advantages it provides. IA can bring in the choppers to clear resistance points or circumvent and insert troups or to just stop a moving column of enemy vehecles. Knowing that IA can bring these choppers at a moments notice into the tactical scenario would give multiple headaches to the enemy planners and also give a lot of flexibility to Indian planners. Just Imagine a 100 to 150 attack force on the western sector itself for IA armed to the teeth with 4 KM range missiles to handle enemy vehecles and to provide fire power where needed --


IAF will have its hands full in a war to provide dominance over the theater, maintain air superiority, avoid any balooning on the Indian side that PA is so fond of and ofcourse the strike missions over Pakistan to take out any key assets on land and sea.


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2011 11:44 
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Rahul M wrote:
IAF needs helos too for many functions, utility, SAR etc etc.



This is true, but these can be dedicated SAR/Utility Sqns., with CSAR-prepared Garud teams... Mi-17s with night flying capability and ESM/ECM measures backed up by HELINA-armed Rudras, assigned to complement air operations sector-wise.


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PostPosted: 30 Dec 2011 13:18 
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Venkat,you're quite right.When the three services cn't agree upon a Combined "Chief of Staff" structure and want their own indepenent authority,in our expanded theatre war scearios envisahed for the future,the IA must have its own Army Air Corps with enough transports (C-130s for special ops),light aircraft and helos,attack and utility,as it requires.For all major logistic operations,the IAF should possess the bulk of the tansport fleet,rom ligh to heavy aircraft.All attack helos shoudl be under the IA's control along with the large number of utility helos,and armed ALHs that if needs.The integration of ground forces along with attack helos and UAVs/UCAVs into a smooth functioning machine ,is the goal today in keeping wiht the IA's new doctrines to deal with Pak and China.


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2011 04:17 
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Gaur wrote:
Vishal Jolapara,
Wonderful pic. Thanks for sharing. :)
^ :wink:
Here's another one i just came across
Image


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PostPosted: 31 Dec 2011 05:40 
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shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:
helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around.


Its not so much about runways as the other infrastructure - hangars, engine maintainance. Technicians, workshops and suppliers of parts - many of which have to be duplicated by the army while they already exist with the air force. the other thing is that if a half hearted job is done (open fields) - it leaves no room for expansion should the army later need a runway to operate UAVs or some such thing. So there will be some expensive duplication unless some sharing agreement is worked out.


Rahul M wrote:
...

personally I find the US military's division of helo assets more sensible. what we can have is joint training when possible for cost savings.


Yes, the IA can have helo assets. However, there is a lot of room for discussion as to how the IAF and IA will share the resources and infrastructure. Here are some questions:

  1. Do both the IA and IAF need separate helicopter training facilities for pilots and technicians? Or can this be shared? Who runs this academy?
  2. Which types of infrastructures shared for what types helicopters and in what situations? Is there enough space in the bases during peacetime and wartime deployments? Who provides the infrastructure and logistics?
  3. Do both the IA and IAF need to recruit their pilots and technicians separately? Or can this be shared? Who is in charge of recruiting?
  4. Do both the IA and IAF need to buy helicopters separately? Or is there a centralized working committee between the IA and the IAF on purchasing decisions based on what each requires?
  5. What level of current "Jointness" exist between the IA and the IAF? What is the level of C4ISR integration between the two services? It is obvious this is not that great.
  6. Who pays for what? Does this mean the IA is angling for increased budget and looking to lessen the IAF budget? Who gets a raise and who gets a cut? How much wastage will there be?

Like someone pointed out earlier, if the Indian Armed Forces can't even decide on the Chief of Defense Staff position then it may be expecting too much for the services to share helicopter resources.


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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 19:27 
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Today near mana airport in Raipur a BSF Dhruv crashed, Three personal were injured(Two pilot one technician). It was on a test flight while crash from 100 feet.why the in service chopper is still in test flight phase? What kind of test user BSF is seeking on end product..
http://idrw.org/?p=6400


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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 20:19 
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Every helicopter has to go through pre-delivery trials where the standard SOP is followed and the chopper has to go through a series of tests. The flight-test might have been that.


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PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 21:14 
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Ivanev wrote:
Every helicopter has to go through pre-delivery trials where the standard SOP is followed and the chopper has to go through a series of tests. The flight-test might have been that.

Get the point, Ivanev. Thanks.......
As this product was in test phase before final delivery and hand over to client, So which Dept will suffer the final product cost, HAL or BSF ?


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2012 16:07 
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HATSOFF CEO Upadhyay quits


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2012 07:41 
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I wonder why helis given to paramils/ civies tend to crash more often than does those in armed forces. are they used more , or the base infra is lacking to inspect and keep them in tip top shape?


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2012 10:21 
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bsf has f'ed up every single flying machine given to them, with the possible exception of the embraers, which are I think maintained by others.


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PostPosted: 21 Jan 2012 12:01 
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the Embraers being based in delhi are probably looked after by the palam vvip sqdn assets.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 05:50 
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Is there any news on TD-3? This article in AW&ST states that a third prototype was supposed to join the test flight program by June 2011..no news of it as yet.

Image

Has Hari Nair stopped coming to BRF now?


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 08:38 
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And what about the changes in the stubbed wings of the second prototype?


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 15:13 
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I believe I saw an LCH flying over Delhi today. Looks like it will be on the Republic Day parade.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 16:01 
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Image

just noticed 3 lemons placed at the wheels of the chopper. mere munna ko buri najar nahi lagni chahiye :)


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 16:04 
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Helo crashes.There was a vital piece of info in AWST about the use of Apaches aboard UK carriers in recent wars,which has implications for the IN's ASW contest.An Apache sinks in 3 minutes! This gives the crew/occupants scarcely enough time to evacuate the helo if it ditches Now this attack helo is not strictly expected to serve aboard naval amphibs,but in the context of conflict today ,it throws light on a very vital requirement for any naval helo,which in a crisis has to ditch like the Dhruv which landed from 100ft. in the above report.The Sea KIng's underbelly has a boat shape along with its outrigger floats,allowing it to land on the sea ,so can the NH-90s whose composite fuselage also has a very effective flotation gear.However, its US competitior,has a conventional helo body,and though some flotation eqpt. was added,its design does not have its fuselage and body shaped for the task,which might be at a disadvantage in the "survival" time rate in comparison to the NH-90 if it ditches,as ditching is a permanent danger when operating helos at sea.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 19:26 
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with the apache deal we need to add another adhoc deal of Soflam leaser based target detector. It will surely boost our coordination in between ground and air vehicles.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2012 23:19 
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indranilroy wrote:
And what about the changes in the stubbed wings of the second prototype?

TD-2 has undergone a lot of changes, infact it is way different from the TD-1(even TD-1 has changed from its AI-11 avatar though) both visually and internally (i personally feel its become fugly). From the modified armament boom to the landing gear fairings, the changed door scheme to the changes internally its evolved into a completely new machine. But all for good and with every passing day, its only getting better.
Cheers!


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 00:25 
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Raghu ji,

I have not seen a pic of TD2 with the modified armament boom. I remember discussing this Hari Nair sir. It was running late and was supposed to be fitted in by mid of 2011. Was supposed to be an aerofoil for lower drag instead of the stealthy version that you have seen on TD1/TD2 till now. Me and Hari Nair sir were discussing whether the wings would also be generating lift. There was a talk in AI11 (by Mr. Sampath?) where he said that the wing will not be generating any lift. But Hari Nair sir clarified that it will actually be generating some.

Would love it if Hari Nair sir could provide some more light on the status of the TD-2 modifications and TD-3.

P.S. Have you seen any change in the landing gear fairings? I haven't and am itching to know how the changed fairings look like.


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 06:26 
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indranilroy wrote:
Raghu ji,

I have not seen a pic of TD2 with the modified armament boom. I remember discussing this Hari Nair sir. It was running late and was supposed to be fitted in by mid of 2011. Was supposed to be an aerofoil for lower drag instead of the stealthy version that you have seen on TD1/TD2 till now. Me and Hari Nair sir were discussing whether the wings would also be generating lift. There was a talk in AI11 (by Mr. Sampath?) where he said that the wing will not be generating any lift. But Hari Nair sir clarified that it will actually be generating some.

Would love it if Hari Nair sir could provide some more light on the status of the TD-2 modifications and TD-3.

P.S. Have you seen any change in the landing gear fairings? I haven't and am itching to know how the changed fairings look like.

Indranilji, yes i have seen TD-1 & 2 infact i see them everyday because i have no other option as i work on them daily :P (i am a design engineer in RWR&DC HAL) and if you can loiter around HAL maybe even you can find them flying but not daily. there is no change in the LG as such, just that its been covered with a fairing to reduce drag
Cheers!


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 06:47 
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Thanks Thanks Raghuk ji, please stroll around the LCA hangar too, too many jingoes waiting for LSP7/NP1 to fly


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 07:26 
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raghu ji,

1. how much weight reduction is achieved so far ?
2. is the Recon pod integrated now ?
3. is there any research going on for things similar to Blue Edge Rotor Blades for noise reduction ??(this is not much related to lch but helo tech)
4. is there any research going on for folding blades ? it will be very useful on ships.

welcome to BRF :)


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 07:46 
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I think we can focus on functionality in tranche1 and leave the killer styling cues for tranche2. weight reduction is key as the bird will need all sorts of self defence avionics added on the outside for service role.

they need to have a plan for a Ardigen2 engine from day1 - payload and avionic creep is almost 100% inevitable and IAF/IA will likely go for less glass canopy once they fly it..adding more metal.

on *paper* the wiki empty and mtow TARGETS for the LCH are same as Tigre, but the ardigen engine is far more powerful at peak rating... giving the LCH atleast 500 shp extra margin at top end....

now 'all' we need to do is meet the paper weight targets...much easier for eurocopter than HAL.


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 16:13 
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sameer_shelavale wrote:
raghu ji,

1. how much weight reduction is achieved so far ?
2. is the Recon pod integrated now ?
3. is there any research going on for things similar to Blue Edge Rotor Blades for noise reduction ??(this is not much related to lch but helo tech)
4. is there any research going on for folding blades ? it will be very useful on ships.

welcome to BRF :)

1. Tricky question, i may not be able to answer that
2. What recon pod? if you are talking about the EO, then yes it has been integrated and that was done a long while ago on the ALH, it would just be a matter of copy paste onto LCH
3. yes some research on rotors for sure, but again same answer as the first one
4. The folding blade has been available on the ALH(wheeled variant for navy) for quite some time now but the LUH will arrive with blade-folding feature from the very beginning
And finally thanks and please don't call me ji, i am very young :P


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 18:44 
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V.intersting to compare the LCH wihth the Turkish attack helo,many similarites,that one developed along with AW.However,I can't fathom the extra large "glasshouse" ,esp. for the rear cockpit,when compared with other similar helos,which offer better protection for the crew.These helos usually hace a chamfer /kink at the rear edge of the cockpit side window glass,I do not think that visbility is drmatically improved with the extra glasshouse,unless it was done to reduce weight-but at the cost of better pilot protection?


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 20:12 
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Re RaghuK

Can you tell us anything about the progress on proposed Medium Lift Helo?


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 21:10 
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raghuji,
Welcome to the forum.. Thanks for the updates and as suryaji has requested, please take a stroll to the LCA hangar too..


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 21:15 
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Any details released regarding the Electro-optical sensor suite that is going to be mated to the LCH ??

The new Apache Arrowhead EO/IR-LD multi-sensor system is really a break through and if the IAF is thinking about going for the Apache, they will most certainly be interested in that electro-opitcal upgrade. Having had a chance to play with that I would imagine the benchmark for the LCH's EO/IR would be pretty steep .

Without effective and powerful "eyes", even the most fearsome attack helicopters will have a hard time .


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PostPosted: 24 Jan 2012 21:21 
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the only reason I can think of for a big glasshouse is they want the chin cannon slaved to the gunners HMS and plan to use that a lot in the day and night(using nvg) to the sides in passes orbiting target or moving parallel to targets.
somewhat of a anti-taliban kind of role.

ATGMs and rocket pods will surely be fired using the nose EO ball and glass coverage does not matter.


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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2012 01:14 
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raghuk wrote:
Indranilji, yes i have seen TD-1 & 2 infact i see them everyday because i have no other option as i work on them daily :P (i am a design engineer in RWR&DC HAL) and if you can loiter around HAL maybe even you can find them flying but not daily. there is no change in the LG as such, just that its been covered with a fairing to reduce drag
Cheers!


You have got my attention :) and please drop the ji for me, not much of grey between my ears either.

Also have the new armament booms been strapped on? I don't stay in Bangalore so will wait for the pics. But I must tell you that I was in Bangalore last summer for just 2 days and luckily my host stayed near the HAL airport. I was lucky to see TD-1 flying ... it was wonderful. Keep up the good work and keep posting.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 01:51 
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Production of 159 ALHs is in full swing: HAL.

Work was on full swing on production of 159 Advanced Light Helicopters to be handed over to the Indian Army by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) here, a senior official said today.

HAL was also focusing on producing Weapon System Integrated (WSI) ALH to be handed over to the Services and the work in this regard was at different stages," HAL General Manager (Helicopter Division) M S Srinath said in a statement.

The company had already handed over seven ALHs to Border Security Force (BSF), which is being used for anti-naxalite operations. "... thousands of lives in naxal-affected areas have been saved," he added.

As part of its overseas commitments, HAL had successfully handed over ALH's to Ecuador, Mauritius and Maldives, he added.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 05:13 
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Is there any Heli Production line in HAL and how many HAL can produce in a year?


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 08:23 
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yes there is a entire helicopter division next to the old airport.


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PostPosted: 31 Jan 2012 20:47 
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Narayana Rao wrote:
Is there any Heli Production line in HAL and how many HAL can produce in a year?

One huge manufacturing division, a very decent R&D centre with excellent facilities for ground testing and flight testing. The total no of Helicopters produced are around 40(ch/ck included) else it would be around 25-30 dhruvs.


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