Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[chackojoseph]

Arjun Protection Armour: 8
T-90 Protection Armour: 10

[arnab]

Arjun Driving Points: 10
T-90 Driving Points: 8

Arjun Gunnery Solution: 10
T-90 Gunnery Solution: 8

Arjun TI: 10
T-90 TI: 10

Arjun Missile firing: 0
T-90 Missile Firing: 10

Arjun Protection Armour: 8
T-90 Protection Armour: 10

Arjun Crew Comfort: 8
T-90 Crew Comfort: 5

Arjun Maintainence: 6
T90 MAintainence: 10

Arjun APU(silent ops): 10
T-90 APU(silent ops): 0

Arjun Silhouette: 8
T-90 Silhouette:10

Arjun FCS: 10
T-90 FCS: 9

I'm puzzled by the fact that the chaiwallah gives more points to T-90 protection armour than the Arjun. Also the FCS of Arjun and T-90 are ranked close together, when the trials reported that T-90 hit the targets 72 % of the time whle Arjun hit 100%. and Arjun has demonstrated missile firing capacity - so why 0?

[vina]

Arjun Missile firing: 0
T-90 Missile Firing: 10

Do you want to see YouTube videos of the Arjun firing the LAHAT ? So how is it 0 for Arjun ? It should be 10 for both ! Just because you didn't buy it in MK-1 , doesn't mean that it is not available!

Arjun Protection Armour: 8
T-90 Protection Armour: 10

Err, this piece of fiction is true only if you buy the super duper Kactus-5 package > than anything else out there! This is pure brouchuritis and not proven by actual testing. If there is actual test data out there, it sure as hell is classified and not in public domain. So that is a cop out!

Arjun Maintainence: 6
T90 MAintainence: 10

Now that is stretching it. The Arjun logistics and supply chain has to be built up and will take time. It depends on what you mean by "maintenance". If stuff like fleet avaialablity etc , once the settling in time is taken care of, I would like see the data then. Not now. It is too early.

It is like comparing the avaialbility and maintenance of a T-90 in 1998/2000 vs a well established T-72 fleet.

Arjun FCS: 10
T-90 FCS: 9

Sorry. An FCS and TI that doesn't work under Indian conditions is in my book not comparable.

[d_berwal]

d_berwal good summary on Arjun , Can you summarize in points the pluses and minus of T-90 Bishma based on your interaction or experience with personal who man those tanks , it seems from your post that though T-90 is less of maintenance intensive , the driving and gunnery solution is not upto the mark ? Thanks

Less maintenance intensive ? How so, with close to half the fleet blind due to the Catherine the Great issues, some component in the T-90 engine goes down and the tank cannot be serviced in the field and needs serious down time , while a modular engine like the Arjun's can be field replaced in 45 mins and the tank is all set to go!

If you want to believe that 50% of T-90 have their TI's down, please believe so.
If you want to believe T-90 engine cannot be serviced in field, please believe so. (As per SOP you do not service the engine in field you just replace with new one and move on). As a power pack T-90 engine can be taken out by ARV in field and replaced.

Presently there are no spare engines for Arjun, if its engine need a replacement put the request in a waiting list.

[krishnan]

Ask army to get 1K arjuns and we can surely get more than enough spare engines

[d_berwal]

Arjun Driving Points: 10
T-90 Driving Points: 8

Arjun Gunnery Solution: 10
T-90 Gunnery Solution: 8

Arjun TI: 10
T-90 TI: 10

Arjun Missile firing: 0
T-90 Missile Firing: 10

Arjun Protection Armour: 8
T-90 Protection Armour: 10

Arjun Crew Comfort: 8
T-90 Crew Comfort: 5

Arjun Maintainence: 6
T90 MAintainence: 10

Arjun APU(silent ops): 10
T-90 APU(silent ops): 0

Arjun Silhouette: 8
T-90 Silhouette:10

Arjun FCS: 10
T-90 FCS: 9

I'm puzzled by the fact that the chaiwallah gives more points to T-90 protection armour than the Arjun. Also the FCS of Arjun and T-90 are ranked close together, when the trials reported that T-90 hit the targets 72 % of the time whle Arjun hit 100%. and Arjun has demonstrated missile firing capacity - so why 0?

T=90 base armour + K5 give is marginal advt.

where are you getting the figure of 72% and 100%

Arjun MkI does not fire missile. (Only MkII will have this capability)

[negi]

^ It had fired Lahat back in 2005 ! And now that you have decided to open the can of worms where is Refleks ? Last I heard BD was having issues with manufacturing the Refleks apparently the ToT given by the Russians was too deep.

[chackojoseph]

^ It had fired Lahat back in 2005 ! And now that you have decided to open the can of worms where is Refleks ? Last I heard BD was having issues with manufacturing the Refleks apparently the ToT given by the Russians was too deep.

Given a situation, Arjun can fire a missile with designators placed outside. They are integrating it in mk II.

[arnab]

Arjun FCS: 10
T-90 FCS: 9

T=90 base armour + K5 give is marginal advt.

where are you getting the figure of 72% and 100%

Arjun MkI does not fire missile. (Only MkII will have this capability)

I vaguely recall the % being discussed on the forum, can't find it now. This is what the report says:

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.
The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

A 9 point score vs 10 points is not indicative of a 'clear' superiority. So obviously your scores don't make sense.

[d_berwal]

^ It had fired Lahat back in 2005 ! And now that you have decided to open the can of worms where is Refleks ? Last I heard BD was having issues with manufacturing the Refleks apparently the ToT given by the Russians was too deep.

Does firing of Lahat means Arjun Mk 1 inducted has this capability. No the Arjuns Mk I does not have this capability.
Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.

If BD cant manufacturer Refleks properly, what can IA or Russians do ?

[arnab]

Does firing of Lahat means Arjun Mk 1 inducted has this capability. No the Arjuns Mk I does not have this capability.
Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.

This is stupid - prototype tests indicates capability. If IA wants - it can have. Order the machines and you shall have.

[d_berwal]

Arjun FCS: 10
T-90 FCS: 9

T=90 base armour + K5 give is marginal advt.

where are you getting the figure of 72% and 100%

Arjun MkI does not fire missile. (Only MkII will have this capability)

I vaguely recall the % being discussed on the forum, can't find it now. This is what the report says:

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.
The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

A 9 point score vs 10 points is not indicative of a 'clear' superiority. So obviously your scores don't make sense.

Is this report published by IA?
If not, its one opinion, then. Or;
This above report you mention is part of PR literature?

[d_berwal]

Does firing of Lahat means Arjun Mk 1 inducted has this capability. No the Arjuns Mk I does not have this capability.
Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.

This is stupid - prototype tests indicates capability. If IA wants - it can have. Order the machines and you shall have.

Well for you information, IA wants it, but they are told you will get it only by 2014. In mKII version.

[chackojoseph]

Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.

If BD cant manufacturer Refleks properly, what can IA or Russians do ?

Missile firing capability

Arjun : 0
T-90: 0

If you claim otherwise, then

engine: if not ordered early, what can DRDO do?

Armor: If Army has not objected to it before, what can DRDO do?

etc etc.

[Austin]

T=90 base armour + K5 give is marginal advt.

Thanks for your views on that , the armour is something that Arjun would score well , as we are told Kanchan is far superior armour ,but its also a closely guarded secret as we are told , so you have to believe open source claims in absence of hard information from DRDO.

But the K5 or Kontakt-5 isnt that an old ERA when there is K 6 Kaktus available with claims of twice the effectiveness of K5?

What advantage then the welded turret brought , the older cast iron turret was criticized to offer lesser protection and with some rona dhona we went for Welded turret in latter batches.

[d_berwal]

Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.

If BD cant manufacturer Refleks properly, what can IA or Russians do ?

Missile firing capability

Arjun : 0
T-90: 0

If you claim otherwise, then

engine: if not ordered early, what can DRDO do?

Armor: If Army has not objected to it before, what can DRDO do?

etc etc.

You are entitled to your view point. Even if I don't agree.

[d_berwal]

T=90 base armour + K5 give is marginal advt.

Thanks for your views on that , the armour is something that Arjun would score well , as we are told Kanchan is far superior armour ,but its also a closely guarded secret as we are told , so you have to believe open source claims in absence of hard information from DRDO.

But the K5 or Kontakt-5 isnt that an old ERA when there is K 6 Kaktus available with claims of twice the effectiveness of K5?

What advantage then the welded turret brought , the older cast iron turret was criticized to offer lesser protection and with some rona dhona we went for Welded turret in latter batches.

For the Kaktus part , the composition of inner inserts change, the oevr all layout does not. I believe from the second batch of T-90 onwards the inner inserts have changed. IA calls it by its russian name i will get you that name (IA does not call it K-5 or K6).

Only the first 10-20 Tanks approx were cast iron turrets.

[Austin]

Arjun APU(silent ops): 10
T-90 APU(silent ops): 0

So T-90 lacks any APU or is it like a rock band when it runs while Arjun APU is like a virginia ssn on full silence ?

[vina]

Err. We had learned people saying that with an imported engine, an imported FCS the Arjun is like a Jootha hai Japani...Dil hai hindustani thing, a "mish mash" of ill fitting imported parts.

But with an Isreali environmental system,a French TI (without which the FCS is useless anyway),many Ukranian and other country parts, isnt the T-90, too a Jootha hai Japani.. Dil Hai Russistani thing ?. Isn't it a mish mash of ill fitting imported parts ?

Difference is that the IA imported the Dil hai Russistani thing and wants to call it 100% indigenous by renaming it as Bishma!

[d_berwal]

Arjun APU(silent ops): 10
T-90 APU(silent ops): 0

So T-90 lacks any APU or is it like a rock band when it runs while Arjun APU is like a virginia ssn on full silence ?

T-90 does not have APU yet.
Arjun APU does have noise but muffeled.

[d_berwal]

Err. We had learned people saying that with an imported engine, an imported FCS the Arjun is like a Jootha hai Japani...Dil hai hindustani thing, a "mish mash" of ill fitting imported parts.

But with an Isreali environmental system,a French TI (without which the FCS is useless anyway),many Ukranian and other country parts, isnt the T-90, too a Jootha hai Japani.. Dil Hai Russistani thing ?. Isn't it a mish mash of ill fitting imported parts ?

Difference is that the IA imported the Dil hai Russistani thing and wants to call it 100% indigenous by renaming it as Bishma!

IA didnt do any thing, its the emotion which cloud your view point.

[vina]

Arjun APU(silent ops): 10
T-90 APU(silent ops): 0

So T-90 lacks any APU or is it like a rock band when it runs while Arjun APU is like a virginia ssn on full silence ?

Safe to say that the T-90 in Indian service lacks an APU. There exists one on the brochure where an APU is mounted externally on an armored box sitting on the track skirt.

The brouchuregiri indulged by the IA is amazing. There was an IA brass who extolled the virtues of Arena, Shtora and the rest of the ding dongs and super duper stuff of the T-90 in front of a parliamentary panel while dissing the Arjun and when some astute member probed a little deeper , sheepishly admitted that none of that stuff is on the T-90 in India!

[vina]

IA didnt do any thing, its the emotion which cloud your view point.

No, I didnt say the IA did the Jootha hai Japani part. It is retired IA senior brass and "sources" (we all know who they are) and Natashas doing that part and got it duly published in the DDM.

My query /barb was aimed at them.

[Austin]

How do we know what IA has done or not done?
were any of us ever present there?
IA has till date never released an official document of T-90 evaluation trials or Arjun AUCRT trials or has it?

That is the crux of the matter , there is no official information either via MOD or IA or Parliament on how these trials went , one blog/news reporter would say T-90 was floored and most would just faithfully copy that report , in absence of any information there is a good space for speculation.

I am sure this would happen with MMRCA trials as well , suppose the F-18 gets selected , there would be two points of view America pressurised us or how great and impressive is the F-18 and it won hands down , and as usual neither the MOD , IAF would revel any information and it will be wide speculation.

Well the system is just designed from ground up to remain opaque any thing more and you has OSA hanging over you.

[d_berwal]

Safe to say that the T-90 in Indian service lacks an APU. There exists one on the brochure where an APU is mounted externally on an armored box sitting on the track skirt.

The brouchuregiri indulged by the IA is amazing. There was an IA brass who extolled the virtues of Arena, Shtora and the rest of the ding dongs and super duper stuff of the T-90 in front of a parliamentary panel while dissing the Arjun and when some astute member probed a little deeper , sheepishly admitted that none of that stuff is on the T-90 in India!

Well you must be part of that parliamentary panel to know the inside details. I have no information about it.
What i hear is because of cost cutting, babuss didnt buy that stuff, they wanted to have a separate tender for it.

[Singha]

interesting to note the arjun crew comfort scored 60% higher than T90

[vina]

T-90 does not have APU yet.
Arjun APU does have noise but muffeled.

The need for an APU is not just for noise reduction alone. But more importantly thermal signature. The main engine on in the T-90 will show up like a lit christmas tree on any TI from miles around (the engine is generating and radiating its heat !) , while a small APU generates much less heat and is easily suppressed.

The other important thing is the ability to sit quiet and be on the watch for hours on end. The Chechnya experience is a case in point. Many Russian tanks (esp the T-84s with the turbines), guzzled the usual huge quotas of gas while sitting around under attack and simply ran out of gas and had to be abondoned or were sitting ducks to armed chechens in the urban environment! A T-90 with the main engines running cannot stay put in a place for too long without being refueled , unless it goes totally cold with everything switched off!

[krishnan]

Arjun: Made in india / Made for india
T-90 : Made in russia / customized for india

[jai]

-
IA is not an organization where, one can sabotage a equipment an get away with it. Officers careers will be sealed if even a remote hint of sabotage is true. An officer will never sabotage his own equipment.
There are so many different agencies and check and balance put in place that one cannot get away with it.

Please talk to people in the know (for example people selling to the forces), you may end up changing your opinion on the nuances involved.

[Austin]

Yes not having APU is a big disadvantage , you will have to keep the engine running if you want your TI , Communication , Heater/AC and other gear working.

Wonder if these diesel engine have something like a low power mode to work with lowest possible fuel consumption while generate enough power to light up essential gizmos there ?

Do T-90's have internal space for APU or do they have to be fitted externally ?

[Singha]

I believe even the arjun APU is fitted externally behind the turret

this woman is sitting right atop the APU probably...seems to be size of largeish office AC unit.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C01974.JPG

[Rahul M]

I don't think T-series has space for anything else internally. don't get me wrong, it was a winning design when it started but it started getting obsolete by mid 80's. the russians need to modify their design bigtime if they want to stay in the game.

[sum]

interesting to note the arjun crew comfort scored 60% higher than T90

Doesn't more crew comfort mean the crew are more relaxed and could fall asleep?

Bad, bad Arjun for distracting the crew( by having TFTA things like A/C etc) instead of keeping them mentally and physically awake by ensuring temperatures reach 60-70C inside the T-90...

[Rahul M]

Arjun: Made in india / Made for india
T-90 : Made in russia / customized for india made for russia and works in India with severe handicap, engine producing only 75% of advertised power f.e

[vina]

Yes not having APU is a big disadvantage , you will have to keep the engine running if you want your TI , Communication , Heater/AC and other gear working.

Wonder if these diesel engine have something like a low power mode to work with lowest possible fuel consumption while generate enough power to light up essential gizmos there ?

Do T-90's have internal space for APU or do they have to be fitted externally ?

You are talking about hypothetical stuff here. But there is something out there in the civilian world which does something , it is called by various names by various companies "displacement on demand" , "variable cylinders" whatever from companies like GM, Ford and Honda. What can be done is in a multi cylinder engine, shut down a large number of cylinders from firing when there is not power demanded. For eg, in a V6 engine, you need all 6 cylinders firing while accelarting and the power demand is high,but while cruising, you can shut down some 3 cylinders becuase the crusing power demand is less.

Note however, this is a suboptimal solution to having an perfectly sized APU like in a tank even if you do a "displacement on demand" kind of thing for a tank. Why ? Because, even if the cylinders are not firing,they are turning allright and there is energy lost in fricition and in moving those big cylinders and the cooling jackets and the radiators still continue to emit those large amounts of heat.

A small, chota sa, tinku sa APU is what the doctor ordered and the best solution. You cant do it in a car (imagine a car with 2 engines, one with 300 bhp and another with 30 bhp), but perfectly sensible in a tank.

In anycase, even in an idle mode a large capacity engine will guzzle fuel like no business (an ordinary engine at idle consumes more fuel both at idle and peak power, because it is optimized usually for a small cruising range, basic IC engines from Madrassa knowledge) .

For eg, while in Southwest airlines, while the plane was delayed on the taxi way for a little while , on reaching runway and and getting the take off permission, the pilot apologized for the delay .. some 10 /15 mins I think and said, oh, by the way we burnt 2500 lbs of fuel and contributed some 4000 lbs of CO2 for global warming! (now you know why wise cracks like that and on time performance and low fares and no nonsense makes SWA one of my favorite airlines)!.

Think of that when a 6/7 liter displacement 10/12 cylinder engine is idling for 2 hrs and just putting out generator /hydraulics kind of power.

[chackojoseph]

interesting to note the arjun crew comfort scored 60% higher than T90

Doesn't more crew comfort mean the crew are more relaxed and could fall asleep?

Bad, bad Arjun for distracting the crew( by having TFTA things like A/C etc) instead of keeping them mentally and physically awake by ensuring temperatures reach 60-70C inside the T-90...

What are they running? Tank or Hotel?

[Tanaji]

It is interesting that people who complain about Arjun's foreign content end up proposing T90 as the alternative. As per their logic, the only thing better than x% (x < 100) foreign content is a tank with 100% content.

Well you must be part of that parliamentary panel to know the inside details. I have no information about it.
What i hear is because of cost cutting, babuss didnt buy that stuff, they wanted to have a separate tender for it

Couple of years ago, there were news paper reports of what happened. It also turned out that a standing IA officer had made incorrect (or lied depending on your pov) statements about the T90 to the panel. No idea what happened afterwards.

It seems magical that T90 has no maintenance issues (0) but Arjun has 90+ ...

The thing is the Army is being stubborn about this affair: it staked its reputation and bet on T90 and when the Arjun has beaten their choice on all parameters, it goes against their pride to admit their mistake. One that is going to cost the taxpayer about a 1000 T90s.

[Kailash]

That is the crux of the matter , there is no official information either via MOD or IA or Parliament on how these trials went , one blog/news reporter would say T-90 was floored and most would just faithfully copy that report , in absence of any information there is a good space for speculation.

Spot on Austin - speculation it will be for eternity. I dont think IA will ever release this info. With majority of the inventory consiting of the Tin cans, not revealing its weakness is worth much more than inducting more Arjuns.

arnab wrote:
d_berwal wrote:
Does firing of Lahat means Arjun Mk 1 inducted has this capability. No the Arjuns Mk I does not have this capability.
Every one know one of the prototype vehicle was configured to fire lahat.


This is stupid - prototype tests indicates capability. If IA wants - it can have. Order the machines and you shall have.


Well for you information, IA wants it, but they are told you will get it only by 2014. In mKII version.

d_berwal : I could not confirm this information from open source (though a chaiwalla concurs). Can you provide a link for everyone?

[Austin]

I don't think T-series has space for anything else internally. don't get me wrong, it was a winning design when it started but it started getting obsolete by mid 80's. the russians need to modify their design bigtime if they want to stay in the game.

Well I am not sure if its obsolete big time or just good enough to do the job , as long as they can sell it or export it its a good product , what ever sells is good in this consumer world thats the bottom line , for corporates or MIC.

Looking around there is hardly any one these days who is buying tanks big time( ( the T-90 deal by India is perhaps the biggest tank deal in sheer numbers by any nation in the past two decades if i am not wrong ) neither is some revolution in tank design happening all we see even from biggies is some incremental improvements and gets advertised as the next big thing , well if they can sell it its good for them but not many are buying tank these days.

As far as russia goes they are working on an all electric tanks at least that is what that tank designer chap said in that interview. T-95 was a good design with new concept and heavier design but the Army thinks its too much cold war centric design and doesnt fit in their new leaner meaner mobile force doctrine so its just dev/null.

Probably India along with Russia is the only nation in the world working on new FMBT concept and all indication from both sides are it will be 40 plus T tank fitting within their respective doctrine of mobility.

[Austin]

Note however, this is a suboptimal solution to having an perfectly sized APU like in a tank even if you do a "displacement on demand" kind of thing for a tank.

What you say makes perfect sense , be it tanks or aircraft there is no substitute to a perfect APU , running a single cylinder out of 6 is just a suboptimal solutions.

How about getting a Li-ion battery that keeps charging while the tank runs and provides power for some hour while its not running no substitute to APU but something better then no power at all ? Do tanks have such a concept ?