Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by atreya »

We have many topics relating to almost all arms of the Indian Armed forces. But I noticed, there is no such topic on the mysterious "Ikhwani brigade". It comprises of reformed terrorists, who have changed sides and are fighting for the Indian Army in J&K. Their knowledge of terrain and inputs regarding methods and tricks of terrorists (since they themselves were terrorists once) have proved invaluable to the soldiers fighting in J&K

You can use this topic to post articles relating to the Ikhwanis or give any new information regarding them. Ex-Armymen like RayC sir and other gurus are requested to please join in, and increase our knowledge about them.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

I knew some Ikhwanis, especially those of North Kashmir like Kuka Parrey. If you saw him, you would wonder how can he ever have been a terrorist. Nice, rotund chap, he was!

His profession before turning terrorist, was singing at weddings!

They were a great help.

However, some of them also became extortionists or so we were told!
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by atreya »

atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by atreya »

RayC wrote:I knew some Ikhwanis, especially those of North Kashmir.

They were a great help.

However, some of them also became extortionists or so we were told!

Well, going by the news article posted above, it seems a likely result!! If the Govt. can't take care of its soldiers (I will consider Ikhwanis as regular soldiers), then this is what will happen
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by jamwal »

AFAIK Ikhwanis are not that mysterious factor in J&K
Last edited by JaiS on 29 Aug 2009 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: IB4TL edited
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by Rahul M »

jamwal sahab, do you have anything to add on the ilhwanis ? would like to hear your POV.
Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by Vikas »

Why are they called Ikhwan ? Aren't they closest to criminal mercenariness who were not penalized by GOI ?
BajKhedawal
BRFite
Posts: 1203
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 10:08
Location: Is it ethical? No! Is it Pakistani? Yes!

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by BajKhedawal »

I don't like people who sit on the fence, this Ikhwani's are neither here nor there.

They swing both ways
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

BajKhedawal wrote:I don't like people who sit on the fence, this Ikhwani's are neither here nor there.

They swing both ways

IB4TL
When a former terrorist turns to a govt informer and enforcer against terrorist, he does not have the luxury of sitting on the fence - he is a dead man as far as the terrorists are concerned.

Hardly a comfortable situation to be in life!

The IB4TL Brigade:

The number of IB4TL, apparently is possibly being pushed since it is a subject that one really does not know much about and such people are uncomfortable that they cannot contribute as volubly as they do elsewhere.

Let it die a natural death, without merely IB4TL. There are those who want the thread as I learn; let them ride the thread.

As far as 'criminals' are concerned, hold those who created the Kashmir issue responsible, even if they did not have criminal intent.

One has to make the use of all tools in a bad situation.

Morally, there are worse elements than the Ikhwanis. There are those who are wolves in sheep's clothing pretending to be responsible citizens. Mehboob a comes to mind!
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by Rahul M »

VikasRaina wrote:Why are they called Ikhwan ? Aren't they closest to criminal mercenariness who were not penalized by GOI ?
that categorization is a little harsh on people who risked their life for our side, whatever they might have done before.

p.s. guys, hold the IB4TLs for the moment.
BajKhedawal
BRFite
Posts: 1203
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 10:08
Location: Is it ethical? No! Is it Pakistani? Yes!

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by BajKhedawal »

RayC wrote:However, some of them also became extortionists or so we were told!
Opportunists unless proven otherwise
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

BajKhedawal wrote:
RayC wrote:However, some of them also became extortionists or so we were told!
Opportunists unless proven otherwise
What about the politicians?

They are selfless people?

Let's also get to do without them.

Is that what you are suggesting?

This thread is being handled by Rahul M and let him handle the issue.

Kuka Parrey was killed by the terrorists because he was the leader of the Ikhwanis in North Kashmir.

Let us not be Moral Policemen and decide on morality. How many would venture into Kashmir and do what they do?
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

Voters want to teach a lesson
to renegade Kuka Parrey
Basharat Peer in Sumbul (Baramulla district)

Sumbul in Baramulla district - it is the village Kashmiris associate with counter-insurgency.

It is home to the Kashmir valley's first renegade militant (Ikhwan) Mohammed Yousuf Parrey alias Kuka Parrey.

Parrey is a man with a multi-faceted personality. In the pre-militancy days, he was known as a folk singer.

Then he jumped onto the separatist bandwagon and became a militant before doing an about turn and training his gun on separatists and militants.

His renegade militia, known as Ikhwanis, were feared and abhorred for their ruthless and extortionist ways.

In the run up to the 1996 assembly elections, Parrey formed the Jammu and Kashmir Awami League party and entered the assembly defeating the sitting National Conference candidate M Akbar Lone from Sonawari constituency, which includes Sumbul.

Parrey is in the electoral fray again. However, things have changed this time. Alleging serious human right violations by his men, people seem determined to vote him out.

"That is the only way we can get back at the Ikhwanis. They have made our lives miserable. They extort money from us and if you raise your voice, consider yourself dead," said Irshad Ahmad, a Sumbul youth.

All this is music to the ears of Parrey's rivals, one of whom is Abdul Khaliq Hanief.

Hanief, a Syed Ali Shah Geelani loyalist, dumped the separatists to join the electoral fray and was promptly expelled from the politic-religious Jamaat-e-Islaami.

He is contesting as an independent and is promising to rid the people of the scourge of Ikhwanis.

"Hanief's anti-Ikhwan stand will fetch him a decent number of votes. Besides, although he has been expelled from Jamaat, some of his former colleagues will still vote for him," said Abdul Kabir, a handicrafts dealer in Hajin village near Sumbul.

This is not a new scenario. In the 1996 parliamentary elections, people in Anantnag constituency voted in huge numbers for the Janata Dal's Maqbool Dar only to make a point to the Ikhwanis, who were presiding over a reign of terror in the district.

The main electoral battle will be between Parrey, the NC candidate and Hanief. There are three more little-known candidates in the fray.

In 1996, Parrey had defeated Lone by only 700 votes. Being an established party, the NC is in the best position to benefit from the anti-incumbency factor.

The number of electors this time is 67,767.

Too Complex
The political scene in Kashmir is very complex.

See what this Mehbooba is doing!

She forgets that her father as the Union Home Minister sold the nation to save her sister, kidnapped by the terrorist.

And she has the audacity to side with the separatist forces!!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

At this point we must also make a mention of the Ikhwanis or the renegade terrorists who at the height of terrorism helped cleanse Kashmir of the Pakistan Sponsored terrorist gangs.

The Ikhwanis who were mainly ethnic Kashmiris took upon themselves the noble task of cleaning Kashmir of the Islamist virus that had people like Yasin Malik and his ilk had brought from Pakistan. It was to the credit of the Ikhwanis led by the charismatic Kuka Parrey that militancy declined in the mid-1990s.


Sudha Ramachandran writes in the Asia Times,”Parrey inspired many militants to switch sides and cooperate with the security forces. "The power that Parrey and his boys came to wield and the new-found legitimacy they got by strutting around with the Indian forces and flaunting their weapons in the open was undoubtedly a big attraction for several militants who were fed up with life underground and disillusioned with 'the cause'," a Kashmiri police officer pointed out. Consequently, hundreds of militants surrendered.”

The very fact that the once heavily terrorist infested areas like Shopian, Bandipora, Devsar, and Doda are today terror free is a testament to the dedicated Police Officers and their force in J&K.There are countless Kashmiri Muslim Officers who have told me,”Cleansing Kashmir of these terrorists is the true Jihad”They have steadfastly stuck to their tasks and persevered to get Kashmir to Peace without caring for their own safety or the safety of their family.
Excerpt from:

Ikhawanis
BajKhedawal
BRFite
Posts: 1203
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 10:08
Location: Is it ethical? No! Is it Pakistani? Yes!

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by BajKhedawal »

RayC wrote:However, some of them also became extortionists or so we were told!
RayC wrote:
BajKhedawal wrote:
Opportunists unless proven otherwise
What about the politicians?

They are selfless people?

Let's also get to do without them.

Is that what you are suggesting?

This thread is being handled by Rahul M and let him handle the issue.

Kuka Parrey was killed by the terrorists because he was the leader of the Ikhwanis in North Kashmir.

Let us not be Moral Policemen and decide on morality. How many would venture into Kashmir and do what they do? {They live there, and actively cultivated the insurgency there. One fine day they fancy they don't like the odds in their favor... yeah lets switch sides}
Politicians are even more despicable, but they are scrutinized by a far larger audience than the few who deal with these ikhwani turncoats. Their handlers I am sure know them for the mercenaries that they are and deal with them accordingly.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

BajKhedawal wrote:

Politicians are even more despicable, but they are scrutinized by a far larger audience than the few who deal with these ikhwani turncoats. Their handlers I am sure know them for the mercenaries that they are and deal with them accordingly.
Consider me to have been a 'handler'.

I daresay I found them to be disloyal to their 'new found cause'.

I would say the Ikhwanis are doing greater service to the Nation than Mehbooba, a recognised political hack with fondness to Pakistani ideas on Kashmir!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

I wonder why the IB4TL people are not contributing since they were rather sure of their footing!

I would request all to forgive me, but then what peeves me is that we all act 'smug' or very 'knowledgeable' and then chicken out!

I think we must put our money where are mouth is.

Mods are luckier since they can put their credit cards where their mouth is!

Harsh comments, (I sincerely regret it) but check the threads where so much of 'intellectualism' is displayed and yet, one wonders if it is ''intellectualism' or mere pretensions!

It is time to get serious and back statements with facts and links!

If it is IB4TL, then say why so?

Not because you can contribute nothing.

I am not for this thread and supporting its life,

It is just that this smartassed IB4TL without reasoning as why so irritates.

It only show smartassed chaps with no smartassed answers!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

Kashmir : Hardliners take control of Hurriyat
News Behind The News

September 22, 2003

Much to the disappointment of the Centre, the All Party Hurriyat Conference has gone back into the hands of hardliners, when there were signs that it could adopt a more moderate and reasonable attitude towards talks with the government on finding a lasting solution to the Kashmir problem. Going by the preceding events, it did not come as a surprise when hardline separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani was unanimously elected chairman of breakaway group of the Hurriyat Conference last week. Masarat Alam was named the new general secretary of the conglomerate of the 13 separatist parties, which expressed no confidence against Maulvi Abbas Ansari as chairman of All Party Hurriyat Conference a fortnight ago. This move combined with stepped up violence in the State has caused apprehensions at the Centre, whether the Prime Minister’s initiatives for securing peace in Kashmir had failed. While Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed has been bravely asserting that things are in control and he is hopeful that the current phase of militant violence will end shortly, events indicate otherwise. Hardly a day has passed in the last fortnight without a militant strike or encounters with security forces.........

Fighting militancy : Top aide of slain Jaish leader too shot

After the killing of top Jaish operative Gazi Baba, causing a severe setback to the militant outfit, Kashmir Police have claimed that they have eliminated another top commander of the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) in Srinagar. Mohammad Aslam Awan alias Ansar, resident of Dumail Attock in Pakistan, was involved in more than twenty killings, the police disclosed. Ansar was killed in an encounter with the police and Border Security Force personnel.

“Ansar was number two in the Jaish-e-Mohammad hierarchy after Sehrai Baba was nominated the commander of the outfit. His killing is a big blow to the Jaish,” the police chief said.

Meanwhile, photographic evidence available with the Army indicates that terrorist camps in the Pak-occupied Kashmir (PoK) are back in business. According to the Vice Chief of Army Staff Lt Gen Shantonu Choudhury, intelligence reports indicate that there was no let up in infiltration level, which was the same as last year. On the rise in artillery and mortar fire from across the LoC, he said these were usually a cover for infiltration attempts by Pakistan-based terrorists..........

Several days of heightened violence recently seems to have ended the early summer euphoria generated by Chief Minister Mufti Sayeed’s ‘Healing Touch’ agenda. The killing of Kuka Parrey, the reformed former terrorist, in rural Baramullah is a further blow to the peacemakers’ morale...........


After their success in eliminating Ghazi Baba, the security forces have had to sacrifice several senior officers and other ranks in the stepped-up militant activities. What is going to rankle for a long time is the gunning down of Kuka Parray. His murder may affect the counter-insurgency movement greatly, considering that his group of about 500 counter-insurgents called Ikhwanis had succeeded in eliminating around 1,000 militants and their harbourers. Terrorists have openly said that Parray has been killed in retaliation for the gunning down of Ghazi Baba and have threatened to kill two more prominent persons. Worse, the murder may send out the message that the government cannot protect those who switch over to its side. Another counter-insurgent, Javed Shah, was killed in Srinagar on August 27. It is one thing for officials to say that the spurt in violence indicates that the terrorists are frustrated but quite another to explain this to the victims.

Time to Wake Up
So, I take it that we should gleefully accept that IA troops are killed so that we sit on a moral highground and don't consort with reformed militants.

Good logic!

How about losing Kashmir to Pakistan by default?

Great, what?
Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by Gaur »

^^Sir, Perhaps you are taking BajKhedawal's comment too seriously. You cannot really blame people for their mistrust towards ex-militants. They, unlike you, have not worked with them and so are bound to question their motivation and loyalty. I myself was of the very same opinion at first. But now I am pleased to be corrected by you. If someone who has worked with them can have trust in them, then I am glad that they are fighting on our side.
abhishekm
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 23:28

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by abhishekm »

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^Sir, Perhaps you are taking BajKhedawal's comment too seriously. You cannot really blame people for their mistrust towards ex-militants. They, unlike you, have not worked with them and so are bound to question their motivation and loyalty. I myself was of the very same opinion at first. But now I am pleased to be corrected by you. If someone who has worked with them can have trust in them, then I am glad that they are fighting on our side.
The real disintegration of the Ikhwanis began with the 2002 Assembly elections when the PDP victory acted as an endorsement of the softy-softy approach to terror. Remember the PDP was always against pursuing a hard line approach towards militancy and this explains their opposition to the Ikhwan and the SOG (which were perhaps the most feared counter-terror groups in the sub continent). In any event, the National Conference/Congress had no love lost for the Ikhwanis either as even covertly siding with them would not result in any electoral gains.

Last but not the least, the fact of the matter is that the Ikhwanis never commanded support amongs the local populace who are still high on the romantic notion of the Mujahid fighting for "freedom". Ray sir, all said and done, Kukka Parrey ran his own little personality cult and did not allow mid to senior level Ikhwanis to rise up the ranks and bask in the limelight. If handled correctly, he could have become our very own Ramzan Kadyrov (Russia's strongman in Chechnya). But the fact of the matter is that counter insurgents find it difficult to gain legitimacy in a democratic framework like ours. They live and die by the gun and very few find the transition to democratic methods of functioning an easy task.

As far as the Indian armed forces is concerned, should we draw parallels between our handling of the Ikhwanis and the Sunni "Awakening" groups sponsored by the Americans in Iraq? Whilst the Ikhwanis have been allowed to wither away, the Americans have virtually abandoned the Awakening members to their fate because it was politically expedient to do so.

Also, how effective are counter-insurgent groups in the long term? I'm talking specifically about SULFA (Surrendered ULFA) in Assam whose growth and decline closely tracks that of the Ikhwanis in Kashmir.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by jamwal »

Many of the Ikhwanis were the ones who were sidelined by foreigner terrorists. Sometimes it was difference in ideologies or they just got tired of being away from home. Surrendered terrorists are always a prime targets for other terrorists. That's why some took up guns to defend themselves. AFAIK, they aren't as noble or pro-India as RayC sir seems to believe. Sometimes it's just plain necessity to take up guns against terrorists, at other times it's the power that a gun wields that makes them join the movement. They do make for excellent informers and sometimes prove handy in civil defence but locals at sometimes resent their arrogance.

BTW, Village Defence Committee (VDC) in J&K fight off terrorists with antique 303 onlee. They deserve more attention and support than Ikhwanis.

Diclaimer: I have never met any Ikhwani myself. Only some people in J&K STF I know handled them.

Ray sahib

Is there any thread like this in Military Issues forum ? What made you so angry?
wig
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2162
Joined: 09 Feb 2009 16:58

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by wig »

this is too interesting a thread to be summarily ib4tled!
the ikhwanis represent one of the very crucial aspects of the kashmir imbroglio.
the indian government in 1989 to 1991 or so was sufferring reverses in kashmir. most of the kashmiri pundits were driven out ( ethno-religious cleansing) the incumbent Honourable Home Minister Mr Sayeed ably assisted the cause of the terrorists/ militants by releasing some of these men of pliable honour and discretion in return for his daughter.
rumours were rife in the kashmir of all sorts of capitulation by the indian government. such was the innate brilliance of the indian establishment that the entire list of undercover operatives was handed over officially to some bright chaps who made superb use of it by wiping the lot of them off to kingdom come.
there were hardly a few persons in the administration who stood up for what was right and not what was wrong.
somewhere along the way some of the militants/ terrorists started getting sidelined from the moolah business. this was the nascent ikhwani movement. the late kuka parray contributed in no small measure. information some wrong but a lot of it correct started flowing for the indian army, central paramilitary and rejuvenated state police personnel to take a stand. slowly the tide turned.
of course i am sure knolwedgeable paklurks will have insights that us little knowing sdre's won't be aware off.
but for a variety of reasons( some monetary- ecopolitical perhaps due to feeling slighted) or in fear of their lives the ikhwanis did provide invaluable inputs at a time when there was very little flow of intelligence.
of course this is all my very humble opinion subject to correction.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

Ray sahib

Is there any thread like this in Military Issues forum ? What made you so angry?
I am not angry at all.

It makes me sad that people without knowing a sausage disparage some once misguided people who want to change to help the State that was reeling under terrorist attack.

Instead of encouraging such people, we take a moral high ground! Moral High ground and no action on our part!

I have worked with them and I daresay they were a great help.

I heard Mani Shankar Aiyar on the TV in NDTV Left Right and Centre.

He blamed the NDA for escorting the terrorists to Kandahar and said that is why Mumbai happened.

The old fool did not remember that it was JLN who is the main cause of the Kashmir problem and the mishandling of Kashmir politically throughout that led them to the state they are now in and holding the Nation to ransom.


It has nothing to do with BajKhedawal's . His opinions are valid. At least, he gave some worthwhile observation!


It is to the IB4TL Brigade who think they are ever so clever and when in actuality they are upset that they have no idea and so they cannot take part and let loose their intellect spread like marmalade all over the forum!!

In fact, one of the Ikhwans I knew was the person who kidnapped the then Home Minister's daughter!

Are people aware that not all Kashmiri terrorists are volunteers? They are abducted and marched off across the LC, indoctrinated and returned to cause terror. For a tenure of 2 years they are given 2 Lakhs! And if they die, then the family get Rs 5000 a month. Even this money is embezzled by the Commanders.

It is interesting to listen to their conversation on radio to realise what scoundrels they are!

My Division nabbed about 30 young boys in Gulmarg being taken across!
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17168
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by Rahul M »

jamwal sahab, it is NOT about their motivation or love for India and I'm sure RayC sir has no illusions on that count. the point is they are bloody useful by all accounts and the people who handle them are always careful about it.
it is like handling a snake, you have to be careful but it's a great help if you can use it in your favour.

you are being emotional about it, I certainly don't blame you. but remember that in war you would be a fool to not use every advantage.

p.s. you can't really compare VDCs with ikhwanis, nor are they related. VDCs should be well armed and trained, that's an issue independent of the ikhwanis.

at the end of the day, VDCs by definition are defensive measures while ikhwanis are part of an offensive strategy. the objectives are entirely different.
abhishekm wrote: Also, how effective are counter-insurgent groups in the long term? I'm talking specifically about SULFA (Surrendered ULFA) in Assam whose growth and decline closely tracks that of the Ikhwanis in Kashmir.
ah, I was hoping someone will bring up the SULFA.

using turned terrorists is established practice in India's COIN strategy, I hope we can discuss all aspects of it.
Ray Sir, what say we change the thread title to something like "Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops" ?
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

abhishekm wrote:
Parijat Gaur wrote:^^Sir, Perhaps you are taking BajKhedawal's comment too seriously. You cannot really blame people for their mistrust towards ex-militants. They, unlike you, have not worked with them and so are bound to question their motivation and loyalty. I myself was of the very same opinion at first. But now I am pleased to be corrected by you. If someone who has worked with them can have trust in them, then I am glad that they are fighting on our side.
The real disintegration of the Ikhwanis began with the 2002 Assembly elections when the PDP victory acted as an endorsement of the softy-softy approach to terror. Remember the PDP was always against pursuing a hard line approach towards militancy and this explains their opposition to the Ikhwan and the SOG (which were perhaps the most feared counter-terror groups in the sub continent). In any event, the National Conference/Congress had no love lost for the Ikhwanis either as even covertly siding with them would not result in any electoral gains.

Last but not the least, the fact of the matter is that the Ikhwanis never commanded support amongs the local populace who are still high on the romantic notion of the Mujahid fighting for "freedom". Ray sir, all said and done, Kukka Parrey ran his own little personality cult and did not allow mid to senior level Ikhwanis to rise up the ranks and bask in the limelight. If handled correctly, he could have become our very own Ramzan Kadyrov (Russia's strongman in Chechnya). But the fact of the matter is that counter insurgents find it difficult to gain legitimacy in a democratic framework like ours. They live and die by the gun and very few find the transition to democratic methods of functioning an easy task.

As far as the Indian armed forces is concerned, should we draw parallels between our handling of the Ikhwanis and the Sunni "Awakening" groups sponsored by the Americans in Iraq? Whilst the Ikhwanis have been allowed to wither away, the Americans have virtually abandoned the Awakening members to their fate because it was politically expedient to do so.

Also, how effective are counter-insurgent groups in the long term? I'm talking specifically about SULFA (Surrendered ULFA) in Assam whose growth and decline closely tracks that of the Ikhwanis in Kashmir.
While the SOG has done good work, I cannot comment since I have not worked with them closely. But they were a force to reckon with.

It is not feasible for me to explain the details of good work the Ikhwanis have done. I will also agree that some have not been so good, but then the pittance the GOI gives for their work is something that is disgraceful. Therefore, to expect them to be like the Chechnyan leader is an impossibility.

The low pay is what makes some of them extortionists.

That is why sometimes I feel that the govt has no plan or inclination as such to deal with the Kashmir problem.

They don’t work under the State Govt as such.

I wonder if the Ikhwanis are the only one to be pro India. If Mehbooba and her father, recognised politicians, are not, then who should pro India or loyal?

There is a wonderful Persian couplet to describe the Kashmiris, but I rather not use it!!

The first thing a Kashmiri if asked a question, even if what is name, he will say in a Pavlovian conditioned response, "Allah Kasam jenab, kiya pata?" There is a reason behind it. Throughout history, they have been subjugated by non Kashmiris and they hate authority and so they have developed a self protection mechanism in their psyche. Not my opinon, but that of Lawrence. I only experienced this phenomenon in abundance!! And my association with Kashmir started in 1951!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

Rahul M wrote:jamwal sahab, it is NOT about their motivation or love for India and I'm sure RayC sir has no illusions on that count. the point is they are bloody useful by all accounts and the people who handle them are always careful about it.
it is like handling a snake, you have to be careful but it's a great help if you can use it in your favour.

you are being emotional about it, I certainly don't blame you. but remember that in war you would be a fool to not use every advantage.

p.s. you can't really compare VDCs with ikhwanis, nor are they related. VDCs should be well armed and trained, that's an issue independent of the ikhwanis.

at the end of the day, VDCs by definition are defensive measures while ikhwanis are part of an offensive strategy. the objectives are entirely different.
abhishekm wrote: Also, how effective are counter-insurgent groups in the long term? I'm talking specifically about SULFA (Surrendered ULFA) in Assam whose growth and decline closely tracks that of the Ikhwanis in Kashmir.
ah, I was hoping someone will bring up the SULFA.

using turned terrorists is established practice in India's COIN strategy, I hope we can discuss all aspects of it.
Ray Sir, what say we change the thread title to something like "Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops" ?
Rahul,

That would be a better title to the thread so that it encompasses other groups too.

I would trust an Ikhwani more than the VDC.

Ikhwanis is a hunted animal as far as the terrorists are concerned. Hence, they have to be with the forces for their own good.

VDC can be a double agent!!

There are enough cases to suggest so, especially in the Doda, Kishtwar area.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by RayC »

I know of a 'dreaded' terrorist, Hamid Gada, who was later killed.

He was a porter for the SF, but not treated fair.

I am no lover of terrorists or any religious groups as some tend to feel.

I believe treat people fair and they will not let you down!

I am also ready to admit, that life is not that straight and uncomplicated!
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by manjgu »

kukka parrey was also killed by terrorists IIRC...
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by RayC »

manjgu wrote:kukka parrey was also killed by terrorists IIRC...
Yes. Live by the gun,die by the gun!
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by atreya »

RayC sir, firstly, my apologies for chickening out. When the first "IB4TL" appeared, I just saw the "BRFite" title, and gave in. I just felt that it would be inappropriate for me as a trainee to start a battle of words with experienced members thus provoking their ire. So I went along with the IB4TL.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by RayC »

manjgu wrote:kukka parrey was also killed by terrorists IIRC...
Yes. Live by the gun,die by the gun!

Where have all the IB4TL folks gone......

when they will ever learn?
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by atreya »

We are going on discussing about Kuka Parrey. But what is the CURRENT status of the Ikhwanis? Are they still active? Have they played any role in the recent spurt of violence in J&K?
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by RayC »

atreya wrote:RayC sir, firstly, my apologies for chickening out. When the first "IB4TL" appeared, I just saw the "BRFite" title, and gave in. I just felt that it would be inappropriate for me as a trainee to start a battle of words with experienced members thus provoking their ire. So I went along with the IB4TL.
Nothing wrong.

Instead of IB4TL, demand what's so great about the thread!

I know little of many things discussed here and I tread into them to understand what's up

Let me tell you, I get educated!! Even on matter military!

Never be afraid to ask!
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by manjgu »

rayC, while it is correct that live by the gun and die by the gun..but these chaps were essentially cast away by the powers to be, the govt of the day..maybe they outlived their utility?
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by manjgu »

and i entirely agree with your proposition that nobody wants to solve the kashmir thingy... there is so much money, power in it for all sides that it will not finish so easily ..

this has been corroborated by many people with whom i have interacted...including my BIL who served for some years in kupwara..

last year took a lift in a army truck ahead of Leh and there were 2 senior Sikh JCO's and the driver who also felt the same way. these guys had seen kashmir both pre and post 1989... one of them was narrating a story on how their partol got lost somewhere in the mountains ( pre 1989) and a kashmiri chap walked them for 2-3 days to their camp and did not ask for a penny... the same kashmiri chap now is totally different and gets money from both sides for small things. they remarked that the kashmiri is very clever in identifying when the wind has shifted and generally changes sides very quickly.
Pranay
BRFite
Posts: 1458
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by Pranay »

RayC - Thanks for making a stand in keeping the thread alive and educating some of the uninitiated by providing them with some of your personal experiences.

Atreya - Thanks for starting the thread. Be confident in your thoughts and never get intimidated by any "tags". Originality of thought and quality input is always more important than quantity.

Keep the thread going...
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by atreya »

RayC sir and Pranay- thanks for your trust and motivation.

Now, I have been trawling through the internet to look for more groups of "militants who switched sides". I found very few of them. One of them is of Nasir bin Abbas, an ex-militant of Jammah Islamiyah, a terrorist outfit in Indonesia. Another is that of a whole division of Taliban militants (almost 4000 strong) defecting to the Northern Alliance.
However, the interesting thing I noticed in these two cases was this- though the terrorists have "defected" or "switched sides", all that they have done is given away names and positions of comrades. "Actively" pursuing and finishing off their former mates is absent in both cases.
On the other hand, the Ikhwani brigade raids militant hideouts, takes part in encounters, etc. etc. In short, they can be termed as "active" defectors as opposed to ""passive" ones. This distinction should be kept in mind, as no doubt, comparisons with other defectors will arise.
abhishekm
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 23:28

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by abhishekm »

atreya wrote:RayC sir and Pranay- thanks for your trust and motivation.

Now, I have been trawling through the internet to look for more groups of "militants who switched sides". I found very few of them. One of them is of Nasir bin Abbas, an ex-militant of Jammah Islamiyah, a terrorist outfit in Indonesia. Another is that of a whole division of Taliban militants (almost 4000 strong) defecting to the Northern Alliance.
However, the interesting thing I noticed in these two cases was this- though the terrorists have "defected" or "switched sides", all that they have done is given away names and positions of comrades. "Actively" pursuing and finishing off their former mates is absent in both cases.
On the other hand, the Ikhwani brigade raids militant hideouts, takes part in encounters, etc. etc. In short, they can be termed as "active" defectors as opposed to ""passive" ones. This distinction should be kept in mind, as no doubt, comparisons with other defectors will arise.
Let me add the Sunni Awakening movements/ Guardian councils in Iraq to the list of those who "actively" switched sides. But the real reason these guys switched was because they faced a very real threat from Shia militias and Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia- not because they fell in love with the Americans. I think we can also add Coloned Karuna in Sri Lanka who switched over from the LTTE. Chechnya is also a fantastic example because the former surrendered militants are now the ones in power!!

If one looks at the history of "turned" militants, the motivations vary. I don't think the Ikhwanis decided to kill their former mates because they thought they were doing a service to India. I am not a psychologist but the motivation for becoming pro-India might have been money, a desire for power and status, and may I add, because they saw which way the wind was blowing? Besides, I am sure most of them envisaged a gradual transition to civilian life.

I remember reading an article by Praveen Swami way back in the early part of this decade which said that the Ikhwanis got paid 1500-2000 bucks per month for performing their service (I am sure IA paid them extra money based on info supplied). Don't know how accurate these figures are but assuming they are true, is it any wonder that they take to actions like extortion and kidnapping to supplement their income?

I think the Govt. of India used the Ikhwanis, and now that they are no longer as essential to CI strategy as earlier, have decided to dump them. At least we haven't behaved like the US in Iraq which ID'd each and every member of the Sunni Awakening Councils (retina scan, finger prints, etc.) when they were recruited. Now, if any of these poor devils are apprehended by the new Iraqi government, they can be instantly identified and liquidated :shock:

Anyway, does anyone have any info on SULFA? Have they been disbanded? Doesn't Salwa Judum also have former naxalites in its ranks?
BajKhedawal
BRFite
Posts: 1203
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 10:08
Location: Is it ethical? No! Is it Pakistani? Yes!

Re: Discussion on Ikhwani Brigade

Post by BajKhedawal »

RayC wrote:
Ray sahib

Is there any thread like this in Military Issues forum ? What made you so angry?
It has nothing to do with BajKhedawal's . His opinions are valid. At least, he gave some worthwhile observation!
Pheeew! That’s a relief, who would want an Ex-Army BRFaa moderator gunning after them? It’s suicidal! :twisted:
Are people aware that not all Kashmiri terrorists are volunteers? They are abducted and marched off across the LC, indoctrinated and returned to cause terror. For a tenure of 2 years they are given 2 Lakhs! And if they die, then the family get Rs 5000 a month. Even this money is embezzled by the Commanders.
Used to see all that on DD, but am still wondering why is it that they still want to throw rocks and explosive projectiles at our chaps?

While it may not be your intention it surely sounded as though if you were glorifying them with adages and seemed to be in awe of them. Especially when you lost your cool for a moment back there. I respect your +experiences with them, however I have a few pandit friends whose losses are beyond words for me to even attempt to articulate here. Also had a couple of army friends from the cantt area, who had suffered losses and have heard their fathers personal accounts of the vermin that live there via my friends. Also though it doesn’t account for much of my contempt but I have lived in srinagar for a month in December ’89 , so I have breathed in all the good vibes first hand too. (Ironically it was a hotel called “Ikhwan hotel” or similar sounding name)

Other than this I have nothing else to contribute, so please don’t mind me being a silent observer.
atreya
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Surrendered Militants in COIN Ops

Post by atreya »

abhishekm

You are right. I can add one or two more reasons for the Ikhwanis switching sides. Maybe, they were disillusioned by their cause? Now, that doesn't mean that they have started loving India, but maybe, they have grown tired of massacring innocent civilians without any concrete reasons. This may have angered them enough to start fighting against their common comrades,

I also have a feeling that a sizeable chunk of the Ikhwanis maybe be comprised of militants who have been "punished". For eg. the militant has disobeyed a direct order or failed to perform a "job". If the punishment meted out to him was far too much, he may have switched sides.
Post Reply