LCA News and Discussions

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2011 21:30

ramana wrote:
I wonder if anyone has the conceptual sketches of those planes. The weakness seems to be the jet engine technology. External powers could always deny them as needed. In that regard the LCA too faced the same problem after 1998 tests. And still the Kaveri is yet to emerge. So engine design and mfg has been a major gap for India.

You may need to enlarge the image after download

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2011 21:34

Wow Thanks. Can we have them on the IAF page, Jagan?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Jan 2011 21:37

Shiv,

This is what I mean when I say that thinking of the lost decade brings tears to my eyes. Even one of these designes had been approved by the AS. The story would have been different for the LCA. It may have entered service by 1995 or latest by 2000, instead of reaching IOC by 2010.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2011 21:40

I am still surprised at the decision of going for GE414 against EF200++ engine and that technology offer and package could clearly stay away from big power dependency. As many articles suggests about independence from USA and USSR as the prime, that goes against the decision with GE., however technology and business aside, talking politics alone. There was also a follow up article that EF just lost out by the way they submitted their quote. That is not fair politics at all, but may be fair business tactics considering our political/strategic goal.

Kaveri needs more indigenous inputs, and like how scientists congregate for ISRO, and setup committee for analyzing failures, the same must be done for K. K with Snecma is still a no no considering a strategy of the core precision technology independence. There are reasons to put forward on table that it ain't an easy technology to master. Yes, but still the strategy is not in its place considering independence from ransom France.

I doubt we lack combustion science/ engineering or brains w.r.t turbines, but lack of focus.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jan 2011 07:19

Indian Navy Pushes For More Technological Self-Reliance

The Indian armed forces rarely come out so strongly in support of DRDO, which often suffers delays and cost overruns. For example, the naval prototype (NP-1) of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to have its first flight by March, although Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony had said it would fly before the end of 2010.

“It is late by 3-4 months and that can’t be called a huge delay,” says Dr. Prahlada, DRDO’s chief controller. “We are ensuring that everything is in place and don’t want to hurry through. We will have the first flight of NP-1 in March.”

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Jan 2011 08:12

Restructuring Aeronautics

By SR Valluri

Issue: Vol 22.3 Jul-Sep 2007 | Date: 24 December, 2010

Thanks K.

However, you got to read his book for nice fireworks.

(Don't look for it. Private circulation only and only 2 on BRiet book shelves.)

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 06 Jan 2011 11:15

Mark Antony, the Defence Minister

WTF?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2011 11:27

rakall wrote:
Rahul M wrote:it's a little strange that tarmak thinks India has forgotten those two. I don't think any jingo worth his salt can even think of tejas without the names of those two.
IIRC Actually .... and remembers them..

seen this video?

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jan 2011 13:31

Marten wrote: Where, Sir? I checked Anantha Krishnan's blog, but found no reference.
Yikes, was that subtle sarc that I completely missed?

Valluri's blog mentions it as "Mark Antony"..

Restructuring Aeronautics

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 15:41

imo a single grey tejas took off around 30 mins ago going west. no external payload. they might practise some aerobatics & flypast over HAL next few days ...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Jan 2011 16:06

Aircraft operating centre at Sulur

The Aircraft Operating Centre with 18 ‘Tejas,' Light Combat Aircrafts will start functioning from Sulur (Coimbatore) Airport from June, said R. Swaminathan, Project Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. Talking to reporters on the sidelines after inaugurating a symposium at Thiagarajar Polytechnic College here on Wednesday, Mr. Swaminathan said that the next centre would be at Tuticorin. “We have manufactured 48 aircraft and these piloted aircraft are equal to F16, F18 and MiG 21, ” he said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 16:09

the reporter surely heard the number wrongly. but confirms the 2 Tejas 'anchor' bases in south india, as gwalior for m2k and pune for MKI in initial years...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2011 16:47

Kanson,your quote from the Valluri article was never truer.Many thanks for posting it in full.

"To obtain any self reliance in aeronautics, we have to integrate the relevant institutions also under one authority, and have it headed by a professionally knowledgeable person."

This is exactly what was sabotaged by MOD babudom in the LCA's case at least 4 times when every committee selected a particular very fine and "knowledgable" senior IAF officer of AM rank to head the LCA project,with powers to "hire and fire",pushing the approval higher and higher each time ,and even after a few years when allegedly the PM of the time cleared it,babudom hid it for almost a year until the poor man retired! This allowed babudom to keep on "developing" the aircraft at leisure, spending as they pleased unaccountably and also to allow the import of aircraft to continue for the benefit of screwdriver tech! The IAF were also kept out of the loop as and the article correctly mentioned,HAL which was originally meant to head the programme were reduced to servility of the ADA which had never manufactured an aircraft.

Furthermore, when ADA was conceived, it was expected to be a funding, managing and monitoring organization, with the primary responsibility for its development resting with HAL, and the various R&D institutions functioning in a supporting mode under the auspices of ADA. Instead, the then Scientific Advisor assigned the primary responsibility for the LCA development to ADA, and in essence set it up as a competitor to HAL. It was again an unfortunate decision resulting in avoidable delay.

I think that it was only when the establishment saw what the Sino-Pak combine was developing that the desperation hit them that LCA had to succeed "in the national interest" and the IAF,with a rapidly depleting fleet was sandbagged into accepting an aircraft with an engine that gave lower performance on the promise that MK-2 would deliver he goods.As the denied AM said,he repeatedly told Kalam & co. that the project would develop only as fast as its "weakest link",its engine.Shiv is absolutely correct on that score,as the quote earlier about using a "proven engine for a new airframe,never using a new engine for a new aircraft" is sound advice.Even in the auto industry the same is adopted,yet we (babudom/MOD) chose to believe that the GTRE could do the deed on a pittance of a budget in comparison to what other nations spend.History is again going to repeat itself as we are again repeating our error,heading in the opposite direction with the AMCA,believing that Kaveri (which has failed for the 4th-gen LCA) will power the "6th-gen" AMCA when it is still undergoing testing ! We all know that one day in the future,Kaveri will deliver,but how many years away and again at what delay to the AMCA programme? China is already testing its own 5th-gen fighter as we talk! It would be far better to choose for the AMCA any of the advanced Russian/western aircraft engines available to us and build the airframe around it with enough room for a larger,improved version of Kaveri/new engine later on.This is what the Russians are doing with their PAK-FA,using a Flanker engine,until their new more powerful and lighter engine arrives later .

Nevertheless,the LCA's arrival,delayed though it may be is a moment of achievement and hopefully the lessons learnent and still being lerant in its devlopment will not plague our future indigenous endeavours.For this to however happen,a sea-change in attiitude by the politco-babu nexus has to happen and the boffins,professionals,technocrats and end-users,the IAF sit down together and determine the future needs of their service ,plan for it well in advance and work out a time-bound programme for realising goals.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jan 2011 18:15

Pratyush wrote:Shiv,

This is what I mean when I say that thinking of the lost decade brings tears to my eyes. Even one of these designes had been approved by the AS. The story would have been different for the LCA. It may have entered service by 1995 or latest by 2000, instead of reaching IOC by 2010.

Instead we are masturbating on the "Design Your Fighter" thread.

Youngsters - don't make these mistakes. You will all say no we won't, but you will all have forgotten that by the time you become old enough to be in charge.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 06 Jan 2011 18:35

I understand the issue is we haven't developed enough expertise base for aeronautics.I understand our idea is always to make cheaper plane but never to develop expertise, which in turn come up with ideas to make it.O.k Here is my hierarchy, the defense feels DRDO is poor in making things and the DRDO thinks Indian industry is not capable. So who is going to fix it. One of the primary aim of ADA is to get a technology base for aeronautics where is it after 25 years after its inception what were/are the step done to make it.What is the research/design promoted among youngsters ?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Jan 2011 19:36

Ramana saar, you must be one of the lucky person who witnessed the complete cycle of LCA development. You must well informed about the programme and must have been luckier if you got hands on those earlier articles which definitely has its own antic value.

Shiv, thanks for the pics, do you have the relevant article that came with the pic. Saar, expecting you to post rare news items, tidbits, article, anything you have on the eve of LCA achieving IOC.

Rao saar, not surprised. We locked our real heroes in libraries and in places not reachable to ordinary men. Instead all we could think of is some politicians as heroes standing in statues everywhere. I guess, if you have the copy and you can recollect, he must have said, if Raj Mahindra continued in the LCA programme we must have completed the LCA project much earlier. The initial projection of timelines of completion was per the estimation done by Raj Mahindra and on his shoulders of running the project. Though Kota was good he was new to the job. It has its own effects. What to say, fate! Instead of designating Tejas in "KH", honors should have given to Raj Mahindra, but a decade passed and he is no more. Same request to you saar, if you can got anything to post considered valuable on LCA, or some excerpts from book, pls do Saar on this eve of IOC. Not a better time we can get.

Philip saar, I cannot disagree with you on this. All said and done, finally we are all on single page - in the success of LCA programme. Like Nuclear and Space, Aeronautics field is not lucky enough to have towering and powerful personalities like Homi baba. Even DRDO became what it is after gaining influential people like Kalam. The point is, it takes a lot of effort to tear the shackles of babudom. Babudom is as corrupt and even more corrupt than politicos. And about the HAL, you must be knowing that Valluri was from HAL. He was as critical on HAL in running down the R&D dept to fixing 'screwdriver' technology. The ego clash between ADA and HAL is well known. On the engine, as Ramana mentioned, we selected GE engine in parallel to the Kaveri development, well knowing that it is the Achilles' heel from the previous experience. Let see what we are upto and let us not rush to any conclusion on Kaveri.

manish.rastogi · Post by **manish.rastogi** » 06 Jan 2011 19:38

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Shiv,

This is what I mean when I say that thinking of the lost decade brings tears to my eyes. Even one of these designes had been approved by the AS. The story would have been different for the LCA. It may have entered service by 1995 or latest by 2000, instead of reaching IOC by 2010.
Instead we are masturbating on the "Design Your Fighter" thread.

Youngsters - don't make these mistakes. You will all say no we won't, but you will all have forgotten that by the time you become old enough to be in charge.

I totally agree that youngsters should start taking interest now....but i am sure you would agree that aircraft is a complex machine....so its quite sure that we can't do it without someone to lead....just like any project manager of LCA we need someone to lead and provide guidance,i for one am ready to do my best but i cant, not with negligible experience i am bound to need some support and guidance and i believe many others would come forward with some initiative taken.....we youngsters are just not that experienced unlike you and other seniors like you people can tell which plane it is by just a glance, i dont think many if any youngster could do that.....so i would just suggest TAKE THE LEAD AND WORLD WOULD FOLLOW!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2011 21:21

Kanson, The LCA program is like Ikshvaku/Bhagirath quest to bring the Ganga from the heavens. So many bright engineers: some seniors and some collaegues have started and finshed their careers. Finally its seeing entry into the force.

BTW, dont cry for Valluri. He was also an alpha squirrel who fostered the silo mentality.

His narrative shows there was no overarching visionary who could convince the disparate groups: designers, mfgs, users and academcis to come together on a national priority. Every group thought in its own narrow interests and thus failed. The biggest blame is for those who were the end users and those who held the funds.

A real life example of "Flaw of Averages".

If each of these groups had 50:50 chance of success and since the program success was dependent on the success of all four groups the chance of over all success is ~(1/2)^4 = 1/16. No wonder it took so long even if the odds were even and they were not. :Mis-steps, sanctions delays in funding etc.

* Kanson on Kaveri, some of the best minds were put on it with little money or on shoestring budget**. Already a few years ago the problem was known but not understood. The disk resonates in higher modes. Its not easy to visualise it without analysis or experimentation. They are working on it. BTW all the four groups are very candid to forum members when mtg one on one with caveat not to disclose till its public.

** Shoestring budget from the babus was due to, there was already a turbo-jet engine of the same thrust from GTRE. The difficulty of the turbo-fan was not understood nor communicated. By the time it was found out it was quite late in the program.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jan 2011 00:11

Update on tarmak on the claw team
claw clan

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2011 00:25

moved me..

We were given freedom and it mattered: Shyam Chetty
The team’s strength hovered around 30 always and never went below 15. We were always transparent. We were given freedom and it mattered. The freedom to ask, the freedom to differ, and the freedom to challenge. It made all the difference. There was no hierarchy within the young team. We were called a bunch of jokers, when we started the project. We were not accepted initially by the flight crew, since we didn’t have the experience. The Americans looked at the CLAW and said it will never work. When it was taken to the US to be flown on an in-flight simulator, there were some problems. They blamed the CLAW, but later it was found out that their inflight simulator had some issues that needed sorting and the CLAW was fine.

nice article

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 07 Jan 2011 00:29

^^^^,
+1,
loved reading the article.
ridicule, envy and gradual acceptance.
I guess key is perseverance despite the hurdles.
salute to the team.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jan 2011 00:33

^^^ exactly - reminds me of a quote from Calvin Coolidge

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race

Tidbits from the article

The 15th pilot (Gp Capt Venugopal) flew Tejas today and he said: Great handling qualities (HQ) and very pleasant to fly. Proud of our CLAW & Systems

We breakdown the LCA flight envelope into 30,000 models and each model has 24 criteria to guarantee safety and provide good performance

Yet, with no spotlight, the backroom boys of Tejas project say that their best friend is the pilot. “They are our best advertisers. We live and work for them.”

The Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) issued a System Certification to the Integrated Flight Control Systems Team just hours before Tarmka007 checked in to meet them – a milestone for which they had waited 18 long years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2011 00:37

Some award must be honored for their achievement with a GoI cheque for each of them as a token of apprecitation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jan 2011 06:31

suryag wrote:Update on tarmak on the claw team
claw clan

Must link their photo from the same blog
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... 1600/a.jpg

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Jan 2011 08:11

Ramana,

If there is any intention, it is to recollect everyone's contribution in this LCA programme, however small or big they are. Pls do share your tidbits and i must admit it is interesting to read.

On kaveri, from the available information, they isolated the resonating frequency and made the necessary modification. That was some years back. Who are the big minds you are talking here.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Jan 2011 08:50

4 more days

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 07 Jan 2011 10:14

Light Combat Aircraft Tejas clears last hurdle
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_li ... le_1491320

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)Tejas on Thursday cleared its last hurdle before attaining the January 10-scheduled Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) with the aircraft’s integrated flight control system receiving the necessary documentation from the certifying authorities.

The Regional Centre for Military Airworthiness (RCMA) handed over the certification for the LCA’s integrated flight control system (IFCS) – the pilot-friendly flight controls.

The three teams involved in the LCA programme responsible for the IFCS were Control Law (CLAW), Flight Simulation team and the Parameter Identification team. “Over the years we have developed flight controls that have made the aircraft user-friendly for the pilots to do up to 8 or 9 G’s (eight to nine times the gravitation force). All the 14 test pilots who have flown the LCA over the last 10 years have said we have done a great job and there is nothing more satisfying than this,” Shyam Chetty, project director, CLAW, and the overall head of the three teams, said.

The three groups were formed separately in 1992 by former President APJ Abdul Kalam when he was the scientific advisor to the defence minister, and have been working closely since then.
Team members recalled the negative publicity the programme received in the initial years and the demands to wind it down as it was considered “more trouble than its worth”.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Jan 2011 11:54

Absolutely love the idea of acknowledging and celebrating the people behind the scenes who made this possible. A commendable effort by tarmak007.

Loved reading the article.

Jeff Wickline · Post by **Jeff Wickline** » 07 Jan 2011 12:04

merlin wrote:Absolutely love the idea of acknowledging and celebrating the people behind the scenes who made this possible. A commendable effort by tarmak007.

Loved reading the article.

Great Job by the teams.
In this occassion, we should also recall the contributions of Dr Srinath Kumar of NAL, Shyam Chetty's predecessor. Any body knows his (Dr Srinath Kumar's) whereabouts?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jan 2011 14:26

invitation for IOC function on tarmak yummy

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Jan 2011 19:06

The three teams involved in the LCA programme responsible for the IFCS were Control Law (CLAW), Flight Simulation team and the Parameter Identification team. “Over the years we have developed flight controls that have made the aircraft user-friendly for the pilots to do up to 8 or 9 G’s (eight to nine times the gravitation force). All the 14 test pilots who have flown the LCA over the last 10 years have said we have done a great job and there is nothing more satisfying than this,” Shyam Chetty, project director, CLAW, and the overall head of the three teams, said.

Interesting bit of information there, and from those in charge of the FCS as well - so the current Tejas FCS has been tested upto the standard 8+ Gs that it was designed for?

CM.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Jan 2011 19:16

shiv wrote: Must link their photo from the same blog
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... 1600/a.jpg

Loved the image. A bunch of SDREs working persistently over the years attaining a wonderful result. The same will have to be repeated with the AMCA for another 10 years or more.

Look forward to seeing that effort reach fruition.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 07 Jan 2011 20:52

I've never seen the LCA going up like this before!

TarmAK007: MasCom student joins Tarmak007's Tejas IOC party!

Also, is this is what I think it is?! Are all the pylons on the centre Tejas actually loaded?! *lungi dance*

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jan 2011 20:59

rahul debnath is a very gifted aviation photographer. check out his Mig-27 @ hashimara shots in BR mainsite.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... /Hasimara/

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Jan 2011 22:01

tarmak007 is doing a fantastic job

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jan 2011 22:14

PratikDas wrote:Also, is this is what I think it is?! Are all the pylons on the centre Tejas actually loaded?! *lungi dance*

nah centreline is empty.

arya · Post by **arya** » 07 Jan 2011 22:28

Surya wrote:tarmak007 is doing a fantastic job

yes sir agree with u even the best[bhagwan Shiv chama kare]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2011 22:46

Rahul M wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Also, is this is what I think it is?! Are all the pylons on the centre Tejas actually loaded?! *lungi dance*
nah centreline is empty.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5sP7XwykNSM/T ... 1600/8.jpg
maximize and check, to my eyes it looks like a python!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Jan 2011 22:55

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 08 Jan 2011 00:28

It sure is lungi dance time for all who kept faith for 10 years