Indian Naval Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 May 2011 08:35

Pratyush wrote:Did he mean 1000 rocket packs containing 6 rockets a piece or 1000 individual rockets to be added into 6 pack reload. If it is the former no problems and if it is the latter then it is a big problem. Cause even in a limited was they will run out in a hurry

1000 rockets.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 22 May 2011 08:37

Pratyush wrote:Did he mean 1000 rocket packs containing 6 rockets a piece or 1000 individual rockets to be added into 6 pack reload. If it is the former no problems and if it is the latter then it is a big problem. Cause even in a limited was they will run out in a hurry

General Law: When facing media, people (specially those from management) tend to present data in such a form that output looks maximum. So, thousand strictly means thousand or less, it can never mean six thousand.

And yes it is a big problem.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 May 2011 08:57

cheenum wrote:Hoping to see some Pinaka picture CJ.

Thanks for the good words. As for Pinaka pics, I will put up a request.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 09:57

Singha wrote:phase1 in karwar would have involved lot of seaside dredging and landside civil works to setup the township. ph2 I think incl a naval air station and would likely be less hard as the base is already there, maybe focus more on docks and piers with associated storages and workshops.

Facing Lal Jhanda Morchas, Fishermen protests, JNU Jholnawala protests, Arundhati Roy Sitins. Everything from relegion to economics to environment to habitat loss were thrown in. I remember a senior Karnataka High Court judge deputed to review the sitn on the ground, he said "the plight of the fishermen and other folks rehabilitated is far better than what it was before as well as how the Karnataka govt itself performed in cases like Raichur Thermal power project"... but the Navy and MOD persisted and plowed on.

Konkan Railway also was used to derail the project but better sense prevailed in KRC and Railways.

BTB, there is also a plan to build a Naval Air Base near the Karvar Naval Base, for some reason the site chosen is not adjacent to the base, I wonder why?

Kudos to Western Naval Command and MOD!!!

John · Post by **John** » 22 May 2011 21:14

The OFB has also developed a new rocket having a range of 40 kms for the Navy. An indigenously developed weapon - Kawach is used to target submarines. It also creates a cloud of aluminium particles so that the electronic equipment submarine does not detect the ship to fire back as the electro magnetic waves are blocked. Three versions of the rocket have been made and trials are under way.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 May 2011 21:43

Submarines too use radars for targeting briefly surfacing for radar fixes, and Kavach system triggered by ship ESM has chaff specifically to counter that. Attack sonar does not have range like radar, and subs at 22 kt submerged are slower that ships 27-32 kt. Hence radar is often used for situational awareness that Kavach denies.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 May 2011 22:14

I think any radar fixes obtained by submarine would be suicidal for them , unless they can obtain its position and that of target from near real time or real time airborne or satellite assets via HF or EHF links.

My understanding is they use those radar for navigating in ports or in extreme difficult weather , ofcourse the radar need not emit it can still snorkel and listen to traffic.

I think submarine sonar do have passive ranging capability and hence do not need any radar fixes for its target.

You can always fire a torpedo silently at the general bearing of the target obtained via sonar and when its close use torpedo sonar for end game engagement via its optical fiber links.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 16:05

Indian Naval Base Kochi gets new accommodation for international student officers

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 May 2011 16:07

Indian Torpedoes Near Ready
Livefist

Rare photos of the 2009-2010 development sea trials of (from top) India's two principal underwater weapon development programmes -- the Torpedo-Advanced Light (TAL) and the Varunastra heavyweight high speed torpedo, developed by the Naval Science & Tech Laboratory (NSTL) in Visakhapatnam. After several stops and starts, the Varunastra is to enter its user trial phase with the Indian Navy this year, while Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's principal state-owned missile manufacturer, will begin delivering the first of 25 TALs to the Navy shortly.

Little is known about either programme, mostly because that's the way the government has wanted it. Scant bits of literature (sometimes inadvertent) suggests that technologies involves in both or either of the torpedo programmes include sea water actuated / silver zinc propulsion packages, contra-rotating motor and propellers, proximity sensors, HE warheads, composite material construction, stepless speed control, fibre optic guidance, floating recorder and transmitter (FRAT), noise cancellation techniques and low noise FRP propellers.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 16:14

INS Kuthar arrives at the Port of Trincomalee

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 24 May 2011 04:12

Panel for opening up submarine construction to private sector

L&T, which is constructing a shipyard in Ennore in Tamil Nadu, and Pipavav Shipyard , which has an existing shipyard in Gujarat, have been recommended by the panel to build submarines in partnership with government owned companies as joint venture projects. With this, Pipavav and L&T will join a select group of four companies that have the capability to submarines. "The report has been submitted to the government last week and an announcement is expected soon," said a source with direct knowledge of the panel's report.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 24 May 2011 04:42

VinodTK wrote:Panel for opening up submarine construction to private sector
L&T, which is constructing a shipyard in Ennore in Tamil Nadu, and Pipavav Shipyard , which has an existing shipyard in Gujarat, have been recommended by the panel to build submarines in partnership with government owned companies as joint venture projects. With this, Pipavav and L&T will join a select group of four companies that have the capability to submarines. "The report has been submitted to the government last week and an announcement is expected soon," said a source with direct knowledge of the panel's report.

Hmm.. is this a back door attempt by the DPSUs to keep their fingers in the pie so that they have a share of the private sector's action? IIRC AKA's earlier announcement on the subject (of opening up the naval construction business to the private sector) was that it would be a "level playing field" where the DPSUs and the private yards would compete on equal terms. This announcement changes the complexion of the business to a JV where the DPSUs can be expected to leverage their Government connections to the full to dominate the public face of the operation and create a situation in which the private yards do all the work and the MOD units get all of the credit, manage to cover their earlier sins of time and cost overruns and inefficiencies as well as garner a major share of the revenue by flogging their putative "accumulated expertise" in warship construction.

I may be reading the tea leaves wrongly (and fervently hope that that is indeed the case), but frankly do not have a lot of hope about the good intentions of the MoD and the DPSUs.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 24 May 2011 05:04

Juggi G wrote:Indian Torpedoes Near Ready
Livefist

Rare photos of the 2009-2010 development sea trials of (from top) India's two principal underwater weapon development programmes -- the Torpedo-Advanced Light (TAL) and the Varunastra heavyweight high speed torpedo, developed by the Naval Science & Tech Laboratory (NSTL) in Visakhapatnam. After several stops and starts, the Varunastra is to enter its user trial phase with the Indian Navy this year, while Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's principal state-owned missile manufacturer, will begin delivering the first of 25 TALs to the Navy shortly.

Little is known about either programme, mostly because that's the way the government has wanted it. Scant bits of literature (sometimes inadvertent) suggests that technologies involves in both or either of the torpedo programmes include sea water actuated / silver zinc propulsion packages, contra-rotating motor and propellers, proximity sensors, HE warheads, composite material construction, stepless speed control, fibre optic guidance, floating recorder and transmitter (FRAT), noise cancellation techniques and low noise FRP propellers.

Apparently these are copied and pasted from Swedish Navy Brochure... WTF..!!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 May 2011 07:17

cheenum wrote:
Kartik wrote:MiG-29K being built link
HAL's LCA assembly line looked better. There is a distinct casualness (see a picture where the ladies have placed their lunch and drink on the wing). Also most people are not even wearing helmets or uniforms.

looks like 4-5 airframes are being worked upon!!!

I only see 2 airframes being worked upon. IMO, it looks like the first 2 prototypes being readied and not the actual production line.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 May 2011 07:31

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/asse ... 506_hr.jpg

Look at the platform , seems to have been tailor made for this particular aircraft , it even has gates

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 08:59

Only six airframes are to be upgraded in Russia, I think one single seated and one trainer have already been readied. So only four more frames remaining. I still think HAL line for LCA looked better! Can't be at khan level though, we are SDRE onleee. One day we will get there...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 09:05

closely looking at khan aviation plant pics, its apparent to me they pay very careful attention to these media shoots and arrange the stuff, people and esp lighting for best intimidating effect. what appears a normal shot could actually have required a 15min setup to get all the elements in desired look. they always use some cool blue LED type backlighting even in old mid 90s mag shots.

in HAL on other hand, after the media guy escorts you past security you are prolly allowed to shoot as you want with no special psyops manual or guidebook being adhered to - hence the funny shots of people sleeping under wings, "guys with chappals" working on some part in a non TFTA manner, "girls with oily hair and jasmine flowers" fixing some wing panel and so on. nobody cares for H&D here.

eg LM went to extent of arranging a special shoot for the first IAF bound C130J and a welcome on landing with water trucks spraying it. and good updates on the P8I incl when plate cutting was done. khan is the best at aviation media mgmt - by a margin of MILES

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 May 2011 09:13

Khan plants are private run. They have to take TFTA pictures and make posters with TFTA images to gain a positive impression on tax paying public to ensure continuous support for such programs. This is a very important component to being in business. Positive image is very keenly maintained and they pull out all stops to ensure they get really good photographers to make such pictures.

In india, it is the media who takes pictures who usually do not know head or tail in the assembly line and/or support from the babu responsible for the plant. Pictures taken in broad daylight during a shift with things everywhere because people are working more often than not make for bad pictures except in the hands of a really good photog.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 May 2011 09:23

Singhaji,

OT.

That is in fact how a major private aircraft manufacturer looks like when they are cranking out many planes. It is not blue LEDs, but fluorescent lighting reflecting off a light colored floor. It is absolutely not a staged event. The defense contractors in the US do good work with many skilled technicians and engineers who are well skilled in electrical and mechanical design and embedded software systems. They are the best in the world. Period. A weapon system may have design flaws, but manufacturing it is something the Americans are exceptionally good at and no one else can match their work.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 10:21

Mort Walker wrote:Singhaji,
That is in fact how a major private aircraft manufacturer looks like when they are cranking out many planes. It is not blue LEDs, but fluorescent lighting reflecting off a light colored floor. It is absolutely not a staged event. The defense contractors in the US do good work with many skilled technicians and engineers who are well skilled in electrical and mechanical design and embedded software systems. They are the best in the world.

This F-22 Picture and other pictures like this released are definitely staged. I have been the Boeing Plant (civil and military). Have asked other KNOWLEDGEABLE people who have Top-Secret clearance this question and they AGREE that it was a photo-op. Couple of months back we had a similar discussion for the C130J picture from LockMart.

He also added two things
1) Boeing is poor at stage management compared to LM
2) They do this so often (Senator visits, Jernail visits, Armed Services Committee visits etc) and they have a fine-honed process for this.

Khan floors are far better than SDREs but this one looks like Operation Theater and not a factory floor.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 May 2011 11:03

cheenum wrote: This F-22 Picture and other pictures like this released are definitely staged. I have been the Boeing Plant (civil and military). Have asked other KNOWLEDGEABLE people who have Top-Secret clearance this question and they AGREE that it was a photo-op. Couple of months back we had a similar discussion for the C130J picture from LockMart.

He also added two things
1) Boeing is poor at stage management compared to LM
2) They do this so often (Senator visits, Jernail visits, Armed Services Committee visits etc) and they have a fine-honed process for this.

Khan floors are far better than SDREs but this one looks like Operation Theater and not a factory floor.

I think we're going off on a tangent here but I might as well say it. The pictures of the shop floor are perfectly genuine and there's nothing particularly special about them aside from the futuristic looking neon lighting. And I was slightly disappointed with HAL's assembly lines (though maybe I haven't seen the right pictures). Having large spaces, surfeit lighting, clean white floor, neat work-spaces, minimum clutter, organised storage, etc. isn't just another pointless western fad. Its an important part of the engineering curriculum's management studies, and has a very significant as well as measurable influence on the tempo and quality of production. Also it needs be pointed out, none of this is new to India, most private engineering, manufacturing and automobile firms in India have adopted such 'best practices'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 11:15

true. HALs plants definitely need to get a leg up from the auto and machine tools industry in pvt hands here.

bharat forge type shopfloors which look way more tfta than HAL is probably where they should aspire to next ...
http://static.sify.com/cms/image/levlOjbjfjg.jpg
http://in.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02 ... a-522587-3
http://atyourservice.haascnc.com/wp-con ... orge_2.jpg

the opportunity is there with vast sums of money coming their way for Dhruv, LCH, MRCA, MKI, Hawk contracts....and Mig29S upg too...they could easily call in the best machine tool suppliers and factory experts in the world and rejig themself to a much higher benchmark....if we want sub-mm tolerances in new stealthy platforms we need to pay and work for it.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 24 May 2011 18:59

Trikand ready for tomorrow's launch

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 May 2011 19:32

Snaikji what is the scene with Vikram ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 25 May 2011 11:39

suryag wrote:Snaikji what is the scene with Vikram ?

Nothing spectacular on the outside

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2011 18:06

Nice pics SNaik , One can clearly see the Top Plate MFR and Podberyozovik Long Range radar on Viky.

Wonder why they gave Top Plate a prime position on top of mast and Podveryozovik a lower position , if the latter is 360 * rotating antenna then its view would be obstructed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2011 18:19

what is inside that huge round cylinder thing on the mast? in the old days of battleships it used to have a troop of ranging and gunnery spotting people as the battle commenced...highest point on ship.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2011 18:34

^^ I recollect reading in old Janes , it was some sort of Air Traffic Monitoring and Control system , dont remember the exact designation. May be SNaik can clarify.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 May 2011 19:05

^ Corw's nest; don't you remember the scene in Titanic ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2011 19:15

its as big as a suburban house. if it doesnt mount any secret kit, why not just cut it down and throw it away...its just a heavy weight high up that will affect any ships balance adversely in crossing seas. might save a 100t and reduce fuel consumption too.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 25 May 2011 20:44

Austin wrote:^^ I recollect reading in old Janes , it was some sort of Air Traffic Monitoring and Control system , dont remember the exact designation. May be SNaik can clarify.

Rezistor-K air traffic control and interceptor director. The cylinder is a PAR, so it's not that heavy in fact. If India has chosen to keep it than it's considered to be worth the weight. China apparently either didn't get it or didn't want it as it wasn't installed on Varyag at the time of purchase and is not there now.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2011 22:02

I was not aware it was a PAR , I was under the impression its a radio transparent dome with conventional antenna.

Do you have additional information on Rezistor-K system ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 May 2011 22:11

negi wrote:^ Corw's nest; don't you remember the scene in Titanic ?

Dont remind me of that ship,

Paging Dilbu, Please to anti jinx our ship.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 26 May 2011 01:02

Trikand launched
http://www.newkaliningrad.ru/news/foto/ ... adaru.html
http://visualrian.ru/images?section=pho ... 0%BD%D0%B4

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 May 2011 03:07

Shipyard workers call for end to 'scapegoat' court martial in Nerpa case
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110516/164054151.html

Yakov Agapov, a former senior medical officer with Russia's Pacific Fleet, said that instead of pure freon, the Nerpa's firefighting system contained a "lethal" mixture of freon and trichloroethylene, which is commonly used as an industrial solvent and is highly corrosive.

"Trichloroethylene knocks you off instantly," Agapov said. "If there had been high-quality freon [in the system], the people would have had a few minutes to put on portable breathing equipment."

He said this mixture was an estimated 5.5 million rubles ($198,500) cheaper than freon.

"They stole the freon and replaced it with a poison, that is why people were killed," Prikhodko said. "Where that freon went and who stole it remains an open question."

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 May 2011 03:47

India Will Not Join 1,000-Ship Navy Concept

The Indian Navy will not join any multilateral groupings, putting to rest the possibility of Indian participation in the U.S.-mooted concept of a 1,000-ship navy.

Addressing the naval commanders here, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony ruled out India joining such a group unless it is under a U.N. mandate, said a Defence Ministry statement.

While India will join maritime cooperation in the region against terrorism and piracy, there is no plan to join any broader multilateral grouping, a Defence Ministry official said.

The Remarks by Antony also have cast Doubt on the U.S.-Sponsored

Proliferation Security Initiative,
the Container Security Initiative &
the Regional Maritime Security Initiative,

said a Defence Ministry source.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 May 2011 06:44

The US Navy itself gave up the idea of a 1000 ship Navy some time back...too cost prohibitive.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 26 May 2011 11:17

no single country can have a 1000 ship navy. the only time US had that was during the hey days of WWII....but that kind of ship strength is impossible during peace time. even US would go bankrupt trying to do that.....the 1000-ship Navy is basically another WTO/GATT kind of initiative where, if it is established, eventually US will get to dictate what kind of ships each individual Navy can have. this is what happens with GATT trade agreements. so, it's a good thing India is not joining in this.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 May 2011 16:40

Navy says Khukri Story Not Official
The Indian Express

Book Transition to Triumph, Written by Vice-Admiral G M Hiranandani (Retd), Former Head of the Naval History Project, which has been Acknowledged as the Official Version of 1971 Indo-Pak War.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 May 2011 19:37

Saab Locates Sea Gripen Work In U.K.

In a bid to advance its concept for a carrier-borne Gripen, Saab says it will establish a design center in the U.K. to flesh out the concept.

Saab CEO Hakan Buskhe says the Sea Gripen concept design phase will take 12-18 months and he believes Saab could deliver starting in 2018 if it secures a contract. A flight demonstrator also may be built.

The decision to base the work in London is linked to design expertise in the U.K. rather than the fact the British government is moving to a catapult-and-arresting-gear carrier approach. Instead, India and Brazil are seen as potential customers for the Sea Gripen.

The Swedish company discussed its plans with the U.K. Defense Ministry and made the announcement as part of a larger push into the U.K., despite a declining defense budget there. “We believe we have a gap to fill,” Buskhe says.

The Sea Gripen would be low-cost and low-risk, featuring upgrades going into the Gripen NG, he says.

Saab has drawn up a list of companies it is interested in approaching for partnership on the Sea Gripen, but BAE Systems—Saab’s main partner previously on the Gripen development program—is not among them. “We haven’t been focused on BAE Systems. We have come to the conclusion that we should not try that again,” Buskhe says.

Saab’s announcement comes after Eurofighter revived its concept of a naval Typhoon at Bengaluru earlier this year.

Speaking about Saab’s failure to be shortlisted for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft competition, Buskhe says, “I believe the main difference between India and Brazil is that India wants an ‘off-the-shelf’ product. It was also difficult to convince them we had a good radar.”

Buskhe reinforces that he has not given up hope entirely, noting that “they haven’t told us to pack our things and go home.” Saab, Lockheed Martin and Boeing are awaiting more detail on why they lost out to the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, which remain in the running for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program (Aerospace DAILY, April 28).