Indian Naval Discussion

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Juggi G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Juggi G »

Indian Navy’s Second Submarine Line will witness Strong Competition
..:: India Strategic ::..
Indian Navy’s Second Submarine Line will witness Strong Competition
Published : May 2011

By Commodore (Retd) Ranjit B Rai
The Author is a former Director Naval Operations (DNO) and Naval Intelligence (DNI).

Mumbai. Indian Navy’s submarine arm had clocked an impressive strength of 21 submarines in the 1980s and its Order of Battle (ORBAT) included the Charlie class nuclear propelled submarine INS Chakra, taken on lease from the Soviet Union from 1987 to 1991.

The Indian Navy (IN) successfully absorbed the Chakra’s nuclear propulsion technology while it was based at Vishakapatnam. The submarine was seen exercising with a few selected fleet units of the Navy in Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) maneuvers.

Since then however, the Navy has witnessed a steady decline and its ORBAT of submarines is down to 14 boats, some of them on the verge of retirement.

India’s Scorpene project is delayed, but the requirement of an additional six boats at least in a second line of construction is inviting keen competition from several countries, including Russia, Germany and France.

The existing boats include four Dr Gabler 1500 HDW/IKL designed submarines inducted between 1986 and 1994, and 10 Kilo class double decked boats from Moscow, supplied between 1986 and 2000. The Indian Navy has acquired just two submarines since 1990 in the last 21 years. Of the ten Kilos, the last, INS Sindhushastra (S 65), was commissioned in June 2000, as the fully converted submarine capable of firing Uran missiles.

Four more were later converted in Russia during long refits and, at present, the older six Kilos are 22 years old and ageing. The 20- year old INS Sindhukriti (S-61), the first submarine to be attempted to be refitted in India for conversion to fire Uran missiles with Russian help, has been languishing in refit at Vishakapatnam for the last three years.

To augment the Navy’s submarine strategic capability, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) took over the loss making Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) from the Ministry of Shipping at Vishakapatnam, as it was right next to the Ship Building Centre (SBC) where India’s nuclear submarines are being built. HSL was given the contract to refit INS Sindhukriti.

The inability to carry out refits of the Kilo class submarines in India is another debilitating factor leading to a degraded operational capability.

Submarines require very robust checks for safety of their hulls, that have to withstand deep depths and no system like pumps and machinery can afford to fail, as it can be fatal.

The life span of Russian platforms has posed many challenges. There are problems in the supply of spares and documentation despite the setting up of Roboronservice Ltd in India by a group of Russian companies to provide better support to the Indian Navy. The L One (L1) syndrome of lowest cost tender acceptance system of procurement leaves little flexibility.

Some times, the L1 issue has become a challenge for logistic and acquisition managers in India’s Armed Forces.


DECLINING SUBMARINE STRENGTH

The number of conventional submarines in the Indian Naval fleet to ensure adequate availability in numbers for operations, training, exercises and contingencies is likely to keep declining from the present 14, till the first Scorpene submarine rolls out of Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in about four to five years.

The vexed Scorpene building programme has also seen an escalation of around $ 1.5 billion over the initial price tag of $ 3.8 billion, and in the words of Defence Minister AK Antony, for reasons that ‘MDL could not procure items as per the contract from India’.

MDL has had to import engines and other equipment at higher prices than quoted in the negotiations, as the contract was hurriedly signed. The situation also worsened when there was a war room leak of information from NHQ’s nerve centre, implicating retired naval officers and son of a member of Parliament.

LOOKING BACK

Historically, it was in 1997 that the Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) had taken up the ‘two line 30 year national submarine building programme’ for the Indian Navy to boost itss submarine strength as well as India’s indigenous manufacturing sector.

India did build Leander class frigates successfully at the Mazagon Docks.

Former Naval Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, a proponent of submarine power for the Navy, and Rear Admiral Raja Menon, a former submarine captain who had trained in Germany at the HDW yard, scripted the Indian navy’s long term vision.

Adm Bhagwat also pushed for the Dhanush nuclear capable missile, to be fitted on the OPV INS Subhadra and Sukanya in the interim for nuclear deterrence, despite detractors. It is not much known, that the in the 1960s, as a young Lieutenant, Bhagwat had volunteered for the Navy’s budding elite submarine arm but did not fully qualify, as the competition was severe.

In the coming years though, he enrolled his son in to the Indian Navy, who is now a senior Commander and a qualified nuclear submariner.


Adm Bhagwat could not follow up on his aggressive thrust to make the Ministry of Defence give accent to maritime issues, especially submarines and an indigenous aircraft carrier in his time. His tenure was also cut short by a ministerial order.

It was a jolt to the Armed Forces, and the Navy’s submarine plans suffered. It is well said, new brooms take time to settle and sweep differently. Only in 1999, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) formally approved and recommended the long term plan for the local construction of 24 submarines over 30 years in two lines.

The decision for the first line of submarine building programme languished for seven years. The vested interests of the three contenders were not easy to resolve. These included Armaris (now defunct), the French and Spanish combine DCNS which finally secured the $ 3.8 billion contract for six submarines, German HDW which had supplied two 1500 IKL/HDW boats from Germany and helped build two at MDL, and Rubin/Amur of Russia, which had also offered to build submarines.

India’s Larsen & Toubro (L&T), which has engaged in building India’s ATV nuclear submarine INS Arihant with Russian help, is confident that it can also deliver new submarines in cooperation with foreign shipyards.

South Korea, which had locally manufactured the 212 HDW submarines under license, has also offered its interest in the project.

Many professionals from 1998 onwards had suggested that one or two submarines should be urgently built abroad and inducted to adapt to the technology first, as was done from HDW in the 1980s, but it was not to be.


FUTURE OUTLOOK

The saving grace is that the IN has plans to induct two nuclear propelled submarines soon; the home built INS Arihant which will be armed with the DRDO’s 700km K-15/Sagarika missiles by the end of next year, and Nerpa from Russia.

The Initial Snags Reported in the Arihant’s Nuclear Reactor Operation have been Overcome and the Arduous Harbour Trials are Reported to be Going Well at Vishakapatnam. :D

It will be a proud day for Indians, when the submarine’s reactor is made critical and Arihant sails out on nuclear power.


The other submarine, the 8,500 ton Akula class Nerpa, being christened INS Chakra, is expected to arrive on lease later this year.

Unconfirmed reports say that the Indian crew for it is already being trained in Vladivostok. In India, these officers and men would have had extensive training in nuclear reactor operations already at one of India’s power reactors.

When commissioned, the two nuclear boats will be a formidable addition to the Indian Navy’s declining strength. The base and safety facilities are being setup under the care of Vice Admiral P K Chatterjee, a submariner at NHQ who heads the Nuclear Safety Division.

For underwater communications, an agreement has been reported to have been signed with a private company to build tall transmitter towers for Very Low Frequency (VLF) Radio Waves to transmit messages to submerged submarines at 300 bits/sec.

VLF is a communication system that allows submerged submarines to receive messages without having to break the surface or through towed and tethered buoys or their periscope masts. This is an advancement on the earlier VLF station which was set up under the Navy’s Project Skylark in Tirunaveli in South India with US help, akin to the Omega system which was proposed for Australia in 1972.


THE SECOND LINE

The progress for the approved second line of building submarines, pending since 1999, appears to be moving swiftly now.

In mid-July 2010, the Indian media stated that the programme for the next line six submarines was to be funded at about US $ 8 to 10 billion inclusive of technology transfers and offsets. The Navy had released the relevant RFI on 26 September 2008.

The Replies continue to be Reviewed by the Indian Navy and the Acquisition Wing of MOD, and Most Foreign Builders have been called for Consultations, so that a Comprehensive RFP can be Issued.


The plans call for import of two, and the construction of four in India, under what is called Project 75-I. An RfP is awaited, and may be issued within this year. In financial terms, this acquisition could nearly be as big as the Indian Air Force’s tender for 126-plus order for Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

The responses to the Navy’s 2008 submarine RFI include the five designs tabled below, which in all probability will include options for Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems as no leading navy can have submarines that surface often to charge batteries, acting like sitting ducks in today’s technology of detection.

1. DCNS has offered the Super Scorpene design which is still on paper, with MESMA AIP with a sales pitch that since DCNS is building the Scorpenes in India at MDL, the second line will come out faster and economically. DCNS can also build simultaneously at another yard like HSL. (The French also claim the submarine design can be fitted with a nuclear propulsion package plug on the lines of the French nuclear submarine of the Rubis class).

2. Navantia is the Spanish submarine builder who was the partner with DCNS in Armaris for the current six Indian Scorpenes project progressing at MDL. Navantia has since broken off from DCNS, and has offered the Spanish S-80 design almost with the same argument of alacrity as the French, with a competitive ethanol based AIP. Navantia is constructing S-80 submarines for the Spanish Navy and has a very advanced open architecture design for fire control suites and also has a tieup with Lockheed Martin of USA, which should allow the Indian Navy to independently select fire control suites, missiles and torpedoes from either source.

3. Rubin has offered the Amur design which has also been on the cards for long. Many in the Indian naval community wish to see the Navy and MOD adopt a Russian design as Russians have good submarine technology and have proved alternate reliable strategic partners. The Amur designers claim they can fit eight vertical BrahMos missile launchers and Russia holds the BrahMos technology.

4. Fincantieri/Rubin has offered the S-1000 design. Fincantieri has emerged as a favoured reliable, and economical warship supplier that has delivered fleet tanker INS Deepak, an Oceanographic research vessel ORV Sagar Nidhi, and is a consultant to IN for its ambitious 37,500 ton aircraft carrier project at Cochin Shipyard Ltd.

5. ThyssenKrupp Marine has offered the HDW Type 214 with the sales pitch that the 214 is the only widely proven design in service and that the Indian Navy operates the earlier adaptation of the 209 class. HDW claims it can deliver submarines timely, as in the past.

AIR INDEPENDENT PROPULSION (AIP)

The Indian Navy is in the search for an AIP system and contemplating to upgrade one or two of the 1500 HDW boats with an AIP plug when the boats come up for refits.

Singapore has adopted the Swedish Sterling engine with climate control for tropical waters for its Archer class from Kockums AB, which is now under the German umbrella of the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. The Indian Navy and Republic of Singapore Navy relations are very close and Indian officers are seconded to Singapore, and have exchanged notes.

In the current Scorpene contract, the Indian Navy has the option to fit the French MESMA ethanol steam system, which the French firm DCNS has fitted on the Pakistan Navy’s AgostaB submarines.


Little is known how the MESMA is progressing in the Pakistan Navy and this writer met the Vice Chief of the Pakistan Navy in Singapore during an OPV Conference and he claimed success.

The German HDW submarines employ a fuel cell AIP technology and the Spanish have an adapted ethanol based AIP, which they claim is superior to the French. Russians claim they have an AIP design and it is reported India’s DRDO has been experimenting with an AIP also.

CONCLUSION

The Indian Navy has a grave responsibility in the coming years and if the Indian economy is to continue to grow at a steady rate then energy security, stability in the Indian Ocean, exploitation of the two million sq miles of Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), and protection of India’s shorelines against 26/11 type of attacks will need a robust, large and well equipped, well trained, and well funded Navy.

The Indian Navy has a crucial role in ensuring that the Trading Sea Lanes and Choke Points in the Indian Ocean and the littoral areas are secure at all times.

To patrol the seas, a large Navy needs a surface fleet and a sufficient strength of conventional submarines is a necessity for the Indian Navy in current scenario in the Indian Ocean.

India’s maritime military strategy is predicated on preparing for a possible conflict whilst maintaining a deterrent posture that ensures peace. The Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) has stated in Indian Navy’s strategic document India’s Maritime Military Strategy thus: “The direction appears abundantly clear – a compact but capable Navy. The emphasis would be on force multipliers, quality of weapons, sensors and networking of platforms. In other words, the focus would be on critical capabilities than on the number of ships or aircraft.”

So be it, but all new projects, including the second submarine line, should also help bring New Technologies and economic benefits to Indian industries.

© India Strategic
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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sum
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

Indian Navy’s Second Submarine Line will witness Strong Competition
Published : May 2011
Conclusion of the story: don't dream of the 2nd line for atleast 8-10 years minimum!!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

sum wrote: Conclusion of the story: don't dream of the 2nd line for atleast 8-10 years minimum!!
If thats the the case the IN Sub fleet will be only about 20 boats, with 10 kilos and the 4 209s and the 6 Scorpeans.

With the earliest kilos and the all but the last 2 209s approaching retirement.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Expect it only after next elections.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by andy B »

I just cant understand what the hell is going on with IN's sub fleet....

I mean here we are witnessing a complete pipeline of surface combatants of various shapes and sizes from Talwars to Shivaliks to Calcuttas to Carriers not to mention the modernisation of current fleet as well with the R class destroyers getting Brahmos capability and yet on the other had the Sub arm almost seems like nothing is happening! :((

The only silver lining for me is Arihant ticking along...

Having said the above I have a suspicion that we may not be hearing the real developments given the secretive nature of any Sub arm....
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Paul »

It is possible that IN is well satisfied with the pace of Arihant progress and is willing to compromise on Sub fleet augmentation. To counter PLAN/PN sub threat there are sufficient MPAs in service/in pipeline.

This has been taken into account by the planners and we need to congratulate the navy planners for this.....The second line of Subs is planned for the XIIth plan and is proceeding according to schedule...but make no mistake. 1st priority is the Arihant project.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

andy B wrote:I just cant understand what the he....e hearing the real developments given the secretive nature of any Sub arm....

You have the reply in your own question. All the projects you stated are Indian. Sub purchase is import.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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John
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:
sum wrote: Conclusion of the story: don't dream of the 2nd line for atleast 8-10 years minimum!!
If thats the the case the IN Sub fleet will be only about 20 boats, with 10 kilos and the 4 209s and the 6 Scorpeans.

With the earliest kilos and the all but the last 2 209s approaching retirement.
Assuming Scorpenes' are built in time if history is any indicator will be lucky if we even have 3 Scorpene's operational by 2020.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

John wrote: Assuming Scorpenes' are built in time if history is any indicator will be lucky if we even have 3 Scorpene's operational by 2020.
MDL will be launching one scorpean / year from 2012 onwards (MDL Submarine page) so by 2018 they will have launched all 6.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It will be interesting to see the breakup of numbers for each class of ships and the cost of each.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

nuke powered A/c carriers should go a long way.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Kartik wrote:MiG-29K/KUBs being built for the IN at MiG's facility.
HAL's LCA assembly line looked better. There is a distinct casualness (see a picture where the ladies have placed their lunch and drink on the wing). Also most people are not even wearing helmets or uniforms.

looks like 4-5 airframes are being worked upon!!!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Khalsa »

I agree...
However one thing that must always be done is to have a painted and clean floor. Its the first rule for a dedicated assembly line. Clean floor and clean like hospital operating theatre clean. You will see defects and never lose important instruments and tools. Clean floor also has a pyschological effect on the rest of the assembly area.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by jai »

Gagan wrote: Armed forces medical services is a common service to all three forces and it is not uncommon to have the same officer operate across army, air force and navy. They put on the ranks and uniform of the corresponding service.
Very minor nitpick Jai,
The officers on deputation to the other services continue to wear their own uniform and their ranks.

For example an officer with the Army Medical Services on deputation to the airforce or the navy will continue to wear the army uniform, and the army rank.[/quote]

Please see this - http://indiannavy.nic.in/dgms.htm

and this - http://sainiksamachar.nic.in/englisharc ... 8/h13.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by shiv »

Services doctors don't belong to any particular service. They "belong" to the service whose uniform they are wearing.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:
John wrote: Assuming Scorpenes' are built in time if history is any indicator will be lucky if we even have 3 Scorpene's operational by 2020.
MDL will be launching one scorpean / year from 2012 onwards (MDL Submarine page) so by 2018 they will have launched all 6.
Unlikely all 6 will be launched by 2018 especially with commission for the first delayed till 2015 August.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Their is a difference between launching a ship and commissioning. Even if the last one is launched by 2018 she can still be commissioned by 2021.

No reason why all 6 cant have entered service by 2021.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Trikand launch scheduled for 25 May.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Pratyush wrote:No reason why all 6 cant have entered service by 2021.
It is possible but with MDL you need to be cautious based on past experience and shifting goal post for Scorpene.

MDL reminds me of Sunny's famous screen dialog , Tarik pe Tarikh ..Tarikh pe Tarikh ..... :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by krishnan »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=14761
"The Indian crews will begin the training with the French navy after some months. We now hope to get the first Scorpene by August 2015. Each submarine will have just a 36-member crew since automation levels in them are very high," said an official. With India down to just 14 submarines now, the Navy is keen that the Scorpene project, which has been hit by a huge cost escalation and is running three years behind schedule, does not suffer any more slippages.
"The target is to deliver the sixth submarine by 2018, one every nine months after the first one in 2015. The third and fourth submarines are already under construction at MDL," the official added.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by jai »

NewsX channel is reporting an accident at Vizag - dry dock of Arihant got flooded suddenly - 4 navy men, incl 2 officers dead, 18 injured.

Sad indeed, Sub is safe.

http://alpha.newsx.com/
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

Damn.... hope more details on this emerge ( before i could comment)!!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Indian naval personnel killed at Vizag dockyard

None of the ships or subs are damaged.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

RIP for the officers and men who died ( 3 dead and 1 seriously injured). the dead includes a master seamen.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by arun »

Navy likely to induct 'Kawach' rockets in 2013

Confusing news report.

I was under the impression that the Kavach had already been inducted into the Indian Navy by being mounted onboard the INS Shivalik.

I was also under the impression that Kavach was a chaff launching decoy system and would thus normally not have an application aboard a submarine.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Karwar Naval Base Phase I Completed – Brings to Life Rajiv’s Dream: Anthony
Even as Phase-I of the Karwar naval base project is completed, planning for the second phase of the project involving augmentation of facilities at the Naval base to cater for basing of additional ships and submarines at Karwar is well underway and work is likely to commence once the Cabinet approves the expansion.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ Is that something to be proud of ( AKA mentioning how Rajiv started it etc), taking 25 years to complete 1 phase of a project?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Phase I of Indian Naval base at Karwar Completed

In addition GSL next two phases were inagurated and a 105 meter NOPV was launched.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Boreas »

sum wrote:^^ Is that something to be proud of ( AKA mentioning how Rajiv started it etc), taking 25 years to complete 1 phase of a project?
Well not exactly 25 years.. the Phase-I was sanctioned by GOI in 1995 and the work begin only in 1999 when 2.5K crore were allocated for the purpose. Founding stone was laid in 1985 with initial estimates of 350 crores, but soon GOI ran out of money and the process got derailed.

It still need to go a long way as Phase-I allows stationing of upto 10 warships, while proposed Phase-II will enable upto 25 warships. However navy's ultimate aim is to park upto 50 warships in Karwar to counter chinko-porki Gwadar port.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Kudos to CJ..
Hi article clarified what Kavach actually was.. DDM talked about Kavach being a Rocket when it is actually a Chaff based decoy system.. probably there is more... Gurus please explain this.

Hidden in CJs article is another gem...
chackojoseph wrote: Gupta said ‘Pinaka’ rockets manufactured at Ordnance Factory at Ambajhari have been well-received by the Indian Army and the OFB currently manufactures 1000 rockets per year. The army has a demand five times higher the current capacity and OFB is considering increasing its capacity to meet the demand.
I have always been wondering "what is happening to Pinaka?", here were have and excellent system to augument the firepower of our artillery regiments by inducting a local system in good numbers. We were supposed to induct a regiment every year for the past 10 years... glad to hear that it is going on and the Ordanace factory is producing 1K rockets per year and more importantly IA wants FIVE times that number.

Hoping to see some Pinaka picture CJ.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Boreas wrote:
sum wrote:^^ Is that something to be proud of ( AKA mentioning how Rajiv started it etc), taking 25 years to complete 1 phase of a project?
Well not exactly 25 years.. the Phase-I was sanctioned by GOI in 1995 and the work begin only in 1999 when 2.5K crore were allocated for the purpose. Founding stone was laid in 1985 with initial estimates of 350 crores, but soon GOI ran out of money and the process got derailed.

It still need to go a long way as Phase-I allows stationing of upto 10 warships, while proposed Phase-II will enable upto 25 warships. However navy's ultimate aim is to park upto 50 warships in Karwar to counter chinko-porki Gwadar port.
laying a foundation stone means nothing in India, project actually starts when Funds are released and utilized for this purpose. 1999 should be considered the start of the project but then St Antony has to pay his homilies to the first family of India.

I can pardon DDM for making such absurdities, but PIB doing the same... DDMitties is spreading!!!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

phase1 in karwar would have involved lot of seaside dredging and landside civil works to setup the township. ph2 I think incl a naval air station and would likely be less hard as the base is already there, maybe focus more on docks and piers with associated storages and workshops.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

chackojoseph wrote: Gupta said ‘Pinaka’ rockets manufactured at Ordnance Factory at Ambajhari have been well-received by the Indian Army and the OFB currently manufactures 1000 rockets per year. The army has a demand five times higher the current capacity and OFB is considering increasing its capacity to meet the demand.
Did he mean 1000 rocket packs containing 6 rockets a piece or 1000 individual rockets to be added into 6 pack reload. If it is the former no problems and if it is the latter then it is a big problem. Cause even in a limited was they will run out in a hurry
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