Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Mod Note: Please use this thread for discussions on the upcoming IAC-2 aircraft carrier.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was mentioned in a French TV discussion recently that the French next gen a/c carrier PANG whose design is finalised and build will start soon, that it will use French N-propulsion and carry N-armed Rafales, will feature EMALS. You've heard it already.
The really interesting part is this: to operate the General Atomics developed EMALS, there will be a few qualified US naval officers on board the carrier AT ALL TIMES to ensure the highly strategic missions of PANG are carried out successfully.
India will achieve similar "haut niveau d'autonomie strategique" by applying Tellis' snake oil and bending over.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was mentioned in a French TV discussion recently that the French next gen a/c carrier PANG whose design is finalised and build will start soon, that it will use French N-propulsion and carry N-armed Rafales, will feature EMALS. You've heard it already.
The really interesting part is this: to operate the General Atomics developed EMALS, there will be a few qualified US naval officers on board the carrier AT ALL TIMES to ensure the highly strategic missions of PANG are carried out successfully.
India will achieve similar "haut niveau d'autonomie strategique" by applying Tellis' snake oil and bending over.
Last edited by Rakesh on 02 Nov 2022 20:05, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Cyrano-ji, no EMALS is coming.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The only way EMALS is coming to India is when India has shown sufficient capacity to design and reached beyond a certain % of capacity for the construction of the EMALS.
Once that threshold is crossed. The US will bend over backwards and crawl over broken glass to "generously gift" the technology to India. As a good friend that it is.
Once that threshold is crossed. The US will bend over backwards and crawl over broken glass to "generously gift" the technology to India. As a good friend that it is.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
^
Well said, Sir. +1
![ROTFL :rotfl:](./images/smilies/icon_rotfl.gif)
Well said, Sir. +1
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
This is the American philosophy and dream all the times, when dealing with all countriesRakesh wrote:America wants nations to remain dependent on her....
Adding my 2 paise.
America wants a "America-friendly" heads of state, who do what is in interests of America. Heads of several countries in South American continent have been toppled (under the guise of containing communism) to ensure this paradigm.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
https://www.ga.com/bharat-forge-signs-a ... tomics-usaRakesh wrote:Cyrano-ji, no EMALS is coming.
LUCKNOW, INDIA 05 FEB 2020 - Bharat Forge Ltd (BFL)., the world’s leading technology solutions provider and forging company signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with General Atomics, US, a global leader in the research, design, and manufacture of a diverse portfolio of electromagnetic and advanced power and energy technologies. Under the terms of the MOU, BFL and General Atomics’ Electromagnetic Systems Group (GA-EMS) will investigate opportunities to develop and integrate power generation, storage, control and distribution technologies related to surface and undersea naval platforms, and advanced projectiles for weapon system platforms to address Indian defence requirements.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The point I was trying to highlight is that any mil tech from the US, especially esoteric stuff like EMALS, AIP, propulsion plants etc. will always come with constraints and strings attached that will impact our strategic autonomy. If a NATO ally like France which is not a total poodle is obliged to accept such constraints, then a non-aligned India will be forced to accept even more. Not to mention the congressional approvals drama for spares and upgrades.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Cyrano,
The CDG is fitted with US made steam catapult. Do we have any evidence of US personnel managing that system?
We need to have official sources to know if the US is going to place personnel on the PANG when it actually enters service in the late 30s.
The CDG is fitted with US made steam catapult. Do we have any evidence of US personnel managing that system?
We need to have official sources to know if the US is going to place personnel on the PANG when it actually enters service in the late 30s.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
^^
Cyranoji
Wonder whether this a two way strategy by Unkil:
a. Stop any further co-ops with Rus and Putinwa(given deep understanding/co-op starting from Chakra to Arihant)
b. Fire across the bows of Charles de Gaulle
They want to rein us in as we don't know what promises Sleepy Joe and the Deep State have given to Jihadi's (we will be stupid to just believe that getting out of FATF and mouthing AK is all)
Cyranoji
Wonder whether this a two way strategy by Unkil:
a. Stop any further co-ops with Rus and Putinwa(given deep understanding/co-op starting from Chakra to Arihant)
b. Fire across the bows of Charles de Gaulle
They want to rein us in as we don't know what promises Sleepy Joe and the Deep State have given to Jihadi's (we will be stupid to just believe that getting out of FATF and mouthing AK is all)
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
It seems having American officers onboard French a/c carriers is nothing new !
This article from July 2020 provides lot of interesting details:
https://defense.info/maritime-dynamics/ ... ed-states/
This article from July 2020 provides lot of interesting details:
https://defense.info/maritime-dynamics/ ... ed-states/
Paris – A US electromagnetic catapult on sea trials has sparked industrial interest and political debate as France considers launching a project for a new aircraft carrier estimated to be worth at least €5 billion ($5.6 billion), a French senate report said.
Fitting two 90-meter Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) offered greater “flexibility and reliability” than steam catapults, and made the French vessel interoperable with aircraft flying from US carriers, said the June 24 report from senators Olivier Cigoletti and Gilbert Roger of the foreign affairs and defense committee.
An order for the electromagnetic catapults from General Atomics was estimated to be worth some €1.5-2 billion, with French industry seeking offset deals, a French industry source said.
That new catapult raised questions of dependence on US technology while France sought strategic autonomy, said the report, which gave a positive view of transatlantic ties in the carrier community.
US catapult seen as essential
Nuclear power and catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) were strengths of the French flagship Charles de Gaulle carrier, which could be maintained on a successor vessel, the report said.
That catapult distinguished the French warship from the British carriers, Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales, equipped with a ski jump flight deck for Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) for the F-35B fighter jet, the report said.
The Charles de Gaulle, dubbed 42,000 tons of diplomacy, was a military capability of nuclear-powered force projection, and a symbol of national sovereignty and strategic autonomy, the authors said.
“The American electromagnetic catapult system EMALS seems highly appropriate, offering greater flexibility and reliability than the present steam catapults while maintaining the equipment as the reduced stress extends the service life of the aircraft,” the report said.
Steam catapults were likely to be withdrawn from service in 20 years’ time, and EMALS would make the French vessel interoperable with US aircraft flying from the Gerald R. Ford class of carriers, the report said.
The Charles de Gaulle operated with a US catapult, and British catapults equipped two previous carriers, Foch and Clemenceau.
French firms seek offset deals
The French naval trade association has presented ideas to the government for potential industrial offset if the American catapults were ordered, said Hervé Guillou, chairman of Gican, the industry body which represents some 20 companies, including Naval Group.
Those offsets could include local assembly and maintenance of the catapults, which would require a limited amount of technology transfer.
While there is little expectation of extensive technology transfer, there is a search for work for French industry in exchange for ordering the US equipment.
“The ideas for offset are not limited to EMALS and could include a wider range of activities from General Atomic such as drones, energy and other sectors,” he said.
The catapult was one of the concerns of the rapporteurs, and French industry should be able to take part in the project, which would grant a certain autonomy, co-author Roger said.
“American aircraft carriers of the Nimitz class will continue to operate with steam catapults but this technology will probably be discontinued in some 20 years time,” the report said. To continue steam catapults or build its own electromagnetic system, France needed to set up an industrial capability.
“The requirement would not deliver the critical mass needed to set up this industrial sector,” said the report, which pointed up close ties with the US.
The US is very much aware France is the only power to have a nuclear carrier with catapults and arrestor gear interoperable with the US navy, with cooperation dating back to the pot second world war era, the report said.
“Moreover, the United States is also mindful of the interests of its industry; it would be highly prejudicial to them not to remain a reliable partner,” the report said.
Close links
A US catapult on the Charles de Gaulle required an American officer to be on board, reflecting carrier cooperation which remained close even when relations were strained between Paris and Washington in 2003, the report said.
Bilateral ties weakened in 2003 when France stayed out of the US-led invasion on Iraq, such that a congressman renamed French fries as freedom fries.
Installation of EMALS brought reliance on the US, which seemed to contradict French autonomy, but the report found no major obstacles to using the catapults. The 75-meter steam catapult on the Charles de Gaulle was American, posing no problems for the French navy.
The new carrier could be equipped with two catapults, allowing a back up capability, the report said. The vessel could also launch and receive aircraft simultaneously, a capacity unavailable on the Charles de Gaulle.
The US navy was testing EMALS, with almost 3,500 launches conducted, and the system would be largely tested by the time a new French carrier were built, the report said.
A fault on the EMALS on the Gerald R. Ford meant the carrier could not launch aircraft for five days while at sea, the US navy said in a June 7 statement, USNI News reported.
The featured graphic is from a Naval Group video portraying next generation carrier for the French Navy.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The real multi-edged sword studded with 6 inch nails is "interoperability". Under this guise US infiltrates into allies' doctrine, procurement, force levels, tactics and deployment in many ways.
Those disappointed that the QUAD is not a military alliance, has no teeth etc etc should pause and consider this.
Those disappointed that the QUAD is not a military alliance, has no teeth etc etc should pause and consider this.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Obviously Tier2 goras like the French cannot operate the switchboard of EMALS. Too complex for guys who frequently get Fields Medals? Same as Brits were worried if IAF can operate jet fighters or IN sailors cause the original vikrant to trip on its own propellers and fall on the quayside. Anglo concerns about non-Anglo competence are always valid until a Sunak comes by to make us laugh.
US systems is a different issue. Most of their major weapons platforms are gears in a large machine. Taking out a gear and attaching it to another country’s machine won’t make it work as well as within the US machine. For example, an average air frame like Shornet will work well inside the vast network of space based, surface and subsurface sensors. But will start flopping like a fish out of water for air at Ladakh, inside a different system. The vast machinery of US military is impressive in showing military results. But only for US objectives. Rest of allies and customers need their approval if they have to go to war, particularly if they are using the platform to full potential using rest of the American machinery.
Left to American khakis, they would act rational about military objectives of others that don’t clash with their own, but then their heads are now under the stiletto heels of wokes and Karens who are taking selfies with the red button next to a sleeping POTUS. Saudis and UAE are finding that out for their Yemen war, where things got switched off by US votebank managers, as is Turkey for their Libyan BS.
Selective plug and play is what India and France is trying to do, where khan system plugins are made “nice to have” in their own machinery. Hence CATSAA and all with strict sandboxing. India is a much larger market (and devoid of respect for Anglo’s competency concerns) than France, so it can push back against concept of American audit teams at bases or embedded EMALS operators by saying “did we mention the quality of Kefir served at kremlin?”
India needs a solid EMALS TD program anyways. At some point the airwar against peer powers will have to go expeditionary and help keep mainland free of war damage.
US systems is a different issue. Most of their major weapons platforms are gears in a large machine. Taking out a gear and attaching it to another country’s machine won’t make it work as well as within the US machine. For example, an average air frame like Shornet will work well inside the vast network of space based, surface and subsurface sensors. But will start flopping like a fish out of water for air at Ladakh, inside a different system. The vast machinery of US military is impressive in showing military results. But only for US objectives. Rest of allies and customers need their approval if they have to go to war, particularly if they are using the platform to full potential using rest of the American machinery.
Left to American khakis, they would act rational about military objectives of others that don’t clash with their own, but then their heads are now under the stiletto heels of wokes and Karens who are taking selfies with the red button next to a sleeping POTUS. Saudis and UAE are finding that out for their Yemen war, where things got switched off by US votebank managers, as is Turkey for their Libyan BS.
Selective plug and play is what India and France is trying to do, where khan system plugins are made “nice to have” in their own machinery. Hence CATSAA and all with strict sandboxing. India is a much larger market (and devoid of respect for Anglo’s competency concerns) than France, so it can push back against concept of American audit teams at bases or embedded EMALS operators by saying “did we mention the quality of Kefir served at kremlin?”
India needs a solid EMALS TD program anyways. At some point the airwar against peer powers will have to go expeditionary and help keep mainland free of war damage.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
If the objective is to go for an aircraft carrier fitted with catapult.
If the indigenous EMALS is several years away. Before it is even able to be fitted on a ship.
What prevents the Indian Navy to ask for a ship fitted with 4 * 190 MW nuclear reactors and steam catapult derived from the catapult used in the original INS Vikrant. Quite sure that the blue prints for those would be gathering dust in some archive someplace within the Indian Navy.
A ship with 4 reactors will have 760 MW thermal power for steam and turbines.
I mean, if the objective is to have a fully capable ship in the 30s. Then this approach gets us there quickly and easily.
Build 3 such ships as a batch. Then move on to EMALS ship in the late 30s.
For a total of 6 to 8 super cariers by 2050s.
If the indigenous EMALS is several years away. Before it is even able to be fitted on a ship.
What prevents the Indian Navy to ask for a ship fitted with 4 * 190 MW nuclear reactors and steam catapult derived from the catapult used in the original INS Vikrant. Quite sure that the blue prints for those would be gathering dust in some archive someplace within the Indian Navy.
A ship with 4 reactors will have 760 MW thermal power for steam and turbines.
I mean, if the objective is to have a fully capable ship in the 30s. Then this approach gets us there quickly and easily.
Build 3 such ships as a batch. Then move on to EMALS ship in the late 30s.
For a total of 6 to 8 super cariers by 2050s.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Cyrano wrote:It seems having American officers onboard French a/c carriers is nothing new !
This article from July 2020 provides lot of interesting details:
https://defense.info/maritime-dynamics/ ... ed-states/
Cyrano-ji, apart from the CATOBAR aircraft carriers of the US Navy, the only other country that operates a CATOBAR vessel is the French Navy. That steam catapult system on the Charles De Gaulle comes from the United States. The EMALS that is coming on the PANG is the same US system found on the Gerald R Ford Class of aircraft carriers, albeit modified to French Navy requirements. The technology is American, so it makes ample sense to have US navy officers on board.Cyrano wrote:The real multi-edged sword studded with 6 inch nails is "interoperability". Under this guise US infiltrates into allies' doctrine, procurement, force levels, tactics and deployment in many ways.
Those disappointed that the QUAD is not a military alliance, has no teeth etc etc should pause and consider this.
The Charles De Gaulle and the upcoming PANG are designed to be fully interoperable with the US Navy's aircraft carriers. The Rafale M is fully qualified to operate from the Nimitz (and in the future) the Gerald R Ford Class of aircraft carriers. One Rafale M underwent a complete engine overhaul & change on the USS George HW Bush. French Naval combat pilots train at US Naval air stations with US Naval instructors and then move on to Rafale M simulators, before being qualified to land on the Charles De Gaulle. Having the Americans on board makes ample technical and interoperable sense for the French Navy.
The Indian Navy does not have a catapult-equipped aircraft carrier and the best optimistic outlook for the Indian Navy is IAC-2 arriving in 20 years from the date of laying the keel. The Indian Navy's own estimate states 15 years from keel laying to commissioning, but considering this vessel - WHEN FINANCIALLY SANCTIONED - will be built in an Indian SY...add another five years to that timeframe. Not a single Indian naval vessel ever arrives on schedule. Some of that delay can be attributed to the smorgasbord of (Russian, Western & Indian) equipment aboard our naval vessels. Many of our PSU shipyards also run on IST (Indian Standard Time) and suffer from labour issues, which also adds to the delay.
The MiG-29K is NOT interoperable with the US Navy's aircraft carriers either. And considering the mess that the MiG-29K is structurally, imagine what a catapult or EMALS launch will do to that airframe. Which brings us to the MRCBF contest. If the F-18SH wins, obviously they will be able to take off from US Navy aircraft carriers. As a side note, it will fulfill the wet dreams of a few on BRF i.e. US and Indian Navy aircraft carriers sailing side-by-side in the South China Sea to defeat the lizard eaters. If the Rafale M wins, she too will be able to operate from US Navy aircraft carriers. Both aircraft will also be able to carry a much heavier payload than when operating from the upcoming Vikrant.
The issue lies in whether the GOI is interested in such an arrangement and how that will work out still remains to be seen. The Indian Navy wants Indian weaponry on the MRCBF of choice. So Astra Mk2, BrahMos-NG, etc are planned for integration on either the F-18SH or the Rafale M. They will be complemented by either American or French weaponry i.e. AIM-120, Meteor, Harpoon, Exocet, Mica, etc depending upon who wins the MRCBF contest. India is the only member of the QUAD that refuses to subscribe to the idea that it has a military angle. Senior Indian naval personnel - all the way up to the CNS himself - have stated this publicly.
Perception plays a big role and India refuses to provoke the dragon. There are a number of reasons for that, but one of them is we are still in the process of rearming & re-equipping - from decades of negligence - and we don't want to get into a conflict with China, that will leave our armed forces at a disadvantage. We still have some more to travel on that road. None of the other members of the Quad share a land border with China and a conflict with the dragon will be multi-pronged (air, land and sea). Japan, Australia and the US do not share that burden.
India is not living under a rock - especially under this Govt - and is aware that the United States is extremely unreliable, regardless of all the public bonhomie that is expressed between the two countries. India is equally aware that China is the only factor that the US and India actually agree upon. On every other issue of significance - trade, Pakistan, defense, Russia, alphabet agreements - there are serious differences of opinion. If the China factor is resolved, where will that leave the Indo-US relationship?
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Kit, I say again ---> no EMALS is coming. Collaboration and JVs on technology (which remains to be seen) is not equivalent to what the French are doing (buying the system as is and placing it on the PANG, with modifications).kit wrote:https://www.ga.com/bharat-forge-signs-a ... tomics-usaRakesh wrote:Cyrano-ji, no EMALS is coming.
From your own link above, see what Baba Kalyani is saying ---> "We have been relentlessly working towards bringing niche technologies in the country with the aim of making India self-reliant in defence vertical. This partnership with General Atomics is a firm step in the direction to develop new technologies in-house to produce benchmark products for naval systems, reduce expenditure due to dependency on imports and setting up a strong defence technology and manufacturing vertical within India."
Bharat Forge is a private company and not some Govt-run PSU. They will not enter into any JV if it does not make financial sense for them. With a PSU, the Indian Govt is there to bankroll them, failure or otherwise. Bharat Forge does not have that luxury. Bharat Forge will ask for know how and how much of that know how General Atomics (and the US Govt) is willing to give to Bharat Forge still remains to be seen.
And whatever know how - if any - that is provided, Bharat Forge will take it and make a system that is largely their own. But the project is still very much in the infancy stages and we would be guessing as to the depth and scope of US tech that is present on a future Bharat Forge product. A PSU has zero incentive to innovate, because they have 100% financial support from the GOI. Bharat Forge has no such foundation to rest on. And how much profit do you think Bharat Forge can achieve by xerox copying a system like EMALS versus producing their own? This is not akin to the then proposed F-16 assembly during the SE contest.
Technology of Transfer, Joint Ventures and Memorandum of Understanding are misunderstood terms in India.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Kalyani M4 is a licensed version of Paramount Mbombe 4.
Let's not assume that bharat forge has such a deep ideological commitment to indigenous arms that they would turn down an opportunity for money (if they thought they could get that). Investment and modifications will be based on opportunity. There will be no assembly line for 100s of EMALS.
Right now EMALS has been offered to India, but the terms are not known and any order hypothetical because there is no green light on IAC-2
But Kalyani and general atomics signed the deal in 2020 to explore opportunities .."related to surface and undersea naval platforms" . That's not a carrier or emals..
Now we could assume that GA will hand over some emals related technology and Kalyani will use it to design and build a desi emals and cut out most of GA workshare. Or we could also consider that maybe Kalyani wants a preview of GA tech, to see where else elements of it could be positioned/sold.
Let's not assume that bharat forge has such a deep ideological commitment to indigenous arms that they would turn down an opportunity for money (if they thought they could get that). Investment and modifications will be based on opportunity. There will be no assembly line for 100s of EMALS.
Right now EMALS has been offered to India, but the terms are not known and any order hypothetical because there is no green light on IAC-2
But Kalyani and general atomics signed the deal in 2020 to explore opportunities .."related to surface and undersea naval platforms" . That's not a carrier or emals..
Now we could assume that GA will hand over some emals related technology and Kalyani will use it to design and build a desi emals and cut out most of GA workshare. Or we could also consider that maybe Kalyani wants a preview of GA tech, to see where else elements of it could be positioned/sold.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
This is what the MoU in the above link states —> “ Under the terms of the MOU, BFL and General Atomics’ Electromagnetic Systems Group (GA-EMS) will investigate opportunities to develop and integrate power generation, storage, control and distribution technologies related to surface and undersea naval platforms, and advanced projectiles for weapon system platforms to address Indian defence requirements.”
At the recently held Def Expo 2022, Baba Kalyani unveiled a scale model of an EMALS platform. I posted that in the DefExpo thread. How much of that tech is coming from GA is an unknown variable. We will be making assumptions onlee.
At the recently held Def Expo 2022, Baba Kalyani unveiled a scale model of an EMALS platform. I posted that in the DefExpo thread. How much of that tech is coming from GA is an unknown variable. We will be making assumptions onlee.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Let's get a few things clear.
1) US will not transfer technology in any meaningful way.
2) commercial off the shelf procurement of equipment is possible. But the US will charge an arm and a leg plus a system of extremely intrusive control over US supplied equipment.
3) India needs to decide exactly what is the number of aircraft carriers is required by it. If the number is sufficiently large. Then a case exists for ab- initio development EMALS in India.
4) if the technology needed for the development of EMALS dosent exist in India. Then we should be thinking in terms of steam catapult. As that is something that will be within reach with the current Indian technology base.
5) Once, Indian technology base is sufficiently matured, move on to EMALS equipped ship.
All the above assumes that India is seriously going to be thinking in terms being an autonomous power centre in the world.
1) US will not transfer technology in any meaningful way.
2) commercial off the shelf procurement of equipment is possible. But the US will charge an arm and a leg plus a system of extremely intrusive control over US supplied equipment.
3) India needs to decide exactly what is the number of aircraft carriers is required by it. If the number is sufficiently large. Then a case exists for ab- initio development EMALS in India.
4) if the technology needed for the development of EMALS dosent exist in India. Then we should be thinking in terms of steam catapult. As that is something that will be within reach with the current Indian technology base.
5) Once, Indian technology base is sufficiently matured, move on to EMALS equipped ship.
All the above assumes that India is seriously going to be thinking in terms being an autonomous power centre in the world.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
VIDEO: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... j2hHrKhtYQ ---> EMALS from Kalyani
https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/1583 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Shore based EMALS to be a reality in a few months from now CMD @BharatForgeLtd #BabaKalyani at DefExpo2022.
https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/1583 ... 2iIGEUMROw ---> Shore based EMALS to be a reality in a few months from now CMD @BharatForgeLtd #BabaKalyani at DefExpo2022.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
1) Who is funding for the installation of shore based EMALS in India?
2) Do we have any aircraft capable of being launched by that system?
PS : If any one can do it. Kalyani can.
2) Do we have any aircraft capable of being launched by that system?
PS : If any one can do it. Kalyani can.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
EMALS is based on a linear induction motor. Can't we get the Germans to consult for our design? The same guys who build the maglev (Transrapid)? China's recent claim equated advances in maglev technology with possible use in EMALS.
In addition to the motor itself is the power supply - a huge amount of energy has to be pumped into the launch that takes like a second. So this energy has to be stored in large capacitor banks (or something similar) and dumped into the windings during launch. Same kind of energy storage is needed for laser weapons - maybe there is an opportunity to share the capacitor bank.
In addition to the motor itself is the power supply - a huge amount of energy has to be pumped into the launch that takes like a second. So this energy has to be stored in large capacitor banks (or something similar) and dumped into the windings during launch. Same kind of energy storage is needed for laser weapons - maybe there is an opportunity to share the capacitor bank.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
I think manufacturing of EMAL would need very high quality of electrical and mechanical engineering knowledge and experience
No company / country is going to give it us on a platter. At present only US has this expertise. Either we develop it ourselves or we buy from them at the price dictated by them and agree to toe their line
No company / country is going to give it us on a platter. At present only US has this expertise. Either we develop it ourselves or we buy from them at the price dictated by them and agree to toe their line
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
I do not think Kalyani is looking at any fancy Limited tech, EMALS, Rail guns, energy weapons, and commercial bleeding edge maglevs all share certain amount of material and manufacturing techniques and technologies.
I do think kalyani would use this as a stepping stone for some futuristic tech.
I do think kalyani would use this as a stepping stone for some futuristic tech.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Kalyani will probably build a mini EMALS to validate the design and do a bunch of tests to start up the learning curve. As the mass to sling keeps increasing more and more requirements, failure points and safety issues will keep cropping up. Its will take a few years for the system to become reliable enough to risk a human life in a 25 odd ton metal cage sling shot from 0 to some 250 kmph (or some insane speed like that) over sea. And for people to become proficient to make, maintain, operate and repair it. And for a carrier to integrate it into its belly, for the navy to master operations using it, and win battles against enemy.
What an exciting journey that will be.....![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
What an exciting journey that will be.....
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Yes indeed, once collaborations and cooperation are taken to a professional level , with financial backing and government/ industry support sky is the limit. India has immense talent and a flair for jugaad, who knows we can improvise on tech even their inventors did not dream about.
The new India needs a dream and there is flair and ingenuity built into its psyche.
When NaMo said come out of colonial shackles it is this , to believe in its destiny and capability
The new India needs a dream and there is flair and ingenuity built into its psyche.
When NaMo said come out of colonial shackles it is this , to believe in its destiny and capability
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Navy to continue its search for larger aircraft carrier.
In order to maintain its operational capabilities in future the Indian Navy will continue the study for its third indigenous aircraft carrier which will be larger than the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC)-2. The Navy has already confirmed to go ahead with the IAC-2 on the lines of the IAC-1 commissioned as INS Vikrant.
Admiral R Hari Kumar confirmed by saying, “Initially we will go for the repeat order with improved capabilities and in the meantime, we will go for study of larger carriers. Because the third aircraft which will come in and by the time it will be commissioned by that time the life of INS Vikramaditya may end.” He was speaking with the media on the sidelines of Aero India 2023.
The earlier plans, as per the Chief of Naval Staff were that “the IAC 2 should be bigger than IAC 1 in size. The size of INS Vikrant is 44,000 tonnes and we wanted the IAC2 to be around 65,000 tonnes.” The decision for the repeat order of IAC 1 is based on multiple factors including construction time, the cost involved and the trajectory of indigenization of the aviation assets also.
Admiral Hari Kumar said, “When we have to design a new aircraft carrier, it will take time and we have to bring new technologies because the present arresting, landing through catapult system is being changed now. For new design, the ship-building facility will have to be upgraded. So we thought if we went for the repeat order the work would start soon.”
“Operationally, new technologies and drones are coming in that can be launched from the carrier that can enhance operational capabilities. The Indian Navy requires three aircraft carriers because the ship if it goes for maintenance, it takes time,” he added. Aircraft carriers are known to have lengthy maintenance schedules. The cycle of maintenance can lead to an absence of a carrier for years, as has been the case with the refit of India’s lone Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya which started at the beginning of 2021 and still continues. It has been delayed due to a fire onboard in July.
With one aircraft carrier still under maintenance and one yet to be inducted, the Indian Navy will be operating without one for some more time. The Navy has been maintaining the three carriers-based force structure so that it can operate two of them in maritime zones on each side of the Indian coastline — eastern and western coasts. INS Vikramaditya was originally a Russian carrier — Admiral Gorshkov — was commissioned in 2013 after total refurbishing. The 44,500-tonne INS Vikramaditya has an airfield with an overall length of about 284 meters. As reported by TNIE in December, the Navy completed all the documentation work on the repeat orders and it is expected that the approvals from the government will come soon. The new aircraft carrier is also expected to be of 45,000 displacements and STOBAR technology.
{When the plan is to repeat the INS Vikrant, why describe the INS Vikramditya except to fill the article length!}
As enunciated by the Navy Chief the timeline would match India’s push for self-reliance aim even to indigenise the aviation complex and it might match up with the production of the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF). TEDBF is being designed for the Navy and officials of the HAL have been claiming it to be ready for commissioning by 2032. Even if a decision on the carrier is taken today, it will take over a year to begin the process of manufacturing, defence sources told this newspaper.
In order to maintain its operational capabilities in future the Indian Navy will continue the study for its third indigenous aircraft carrier which will be larger than the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC)-2. The Navy has already confirmed to go ahead with the IAC-2 on the lines of the IAC-1 commissioned as INS Vikrant.
Admiral R Hari Kumar confirmed by saying, “Initially we will go for the repeat order with improved capabilities and in the meantime, we will go for study of larger carriers. Because the third aircraft which will come in and by the time it will be commissioned by that time the life of INS Vikramaditya may end.” He was speaking with the media on the sidelines of Aero India 2023.
The earlier plans, as per the Chief of Naval Staff were that “the IAC 2 should be bigger than IAC 1 in size. The size of INS Vikrant is 44,000 tonnes and we wanted the IAC2 to be around 65,000 tonnes.” The decision for the repeat order of IAC 1 is based on multiple factors including construction time, the cost involved and the trajectory of indigenization of the aviation assets also.
Admiral Hari Kumar said, “When we have to design a new aircraft carrier, it will take time and we have to bring new technologies because the present arresting, landing through catapult system is being changed now. For new design, the ship-building facility will have to be upgraded. So we thought if we went for the repeat order the work would start soon.”
“Operationally, new technologies and drones are coming in that can be launched from the carrier that can enhance operational capabilities. The Indian Navy requires three aircraft carriers because the ship if it goes for maintenance, it takes time,” he added. Aircraft carriers are known to have lengthy maintenance schedules. The cycle of maintenance can lead to an absence of a carrier for years, as has been the case with the refit of India’s lone Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya which started at the beginning of 2021 and still continues. It has been delayed due to a fire onboard in July.
With one aircraft carrier still under maintenance and one yet to be inducted, the Indian Navy will be operating without one for some more time. The Navy has been maintaining the three carriers-based force structure so that it can operate two of them in maritime zones on each side of the Indian coastline — eastern and western coasts. INS Vikramaditya was originally a Russian carrier — Admiral Gorshkov — was commissioned in 2013 after total refurbishing. The 44,500-tonne INS Vikramaditya has an airfield with an overall length of about 284 meters. As reported by TNIE in December, the Navy completed all the documentation work on the repeat orders and it is expected that the approvals from the government will come soon. The new aircraft carrier is also expected to be of 45,000 displacements and STOBAR technology.
{When the plan is to repeat the INS Vikrant, why describe the INS Vikramditya except to fill the article length!}
As enunciated by the Navy Chief the timeline would match India’s push for self-reliance aim even to indigenise the aviation complex and it might match up with the production of the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF). TEDBF is being designed for the Navy and officials of the HAL have been claiming it to be ready for commissioning by 2032. Even if a decision on the carrier is taken today, it will take over a year to begin the process of manufacturing, defence sources told this newspaper.
Last edited by ramana on 20 Feb 2023 01:18, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
3 AC are not enough. We need 5 to deny ingress into IOR and 7 if we want to take the fight to the enemy.
But 3 are a good start for a purely defensive posture.
But 3 are a good start for a purely defensive posture.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 4218
- Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Indian Navy bites the bullet on aircraft carrier question; plans repeat order of Vikrant-Sized carrier instead of a 65,000 tonner
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indian- ... 000-tonner
20 Feb 2023
Coming from the IN Chief - they will order a 2nd Vikrant class vessel with some improvements (like for drone handling). CSL has said 8 years to complete. Lets hope good sense prevails and an order is placed soon.
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indian- ... 000-tonner
20 Feb 2023
Coming from the IN Chief - they will order a 2nd Vikrant class vessel with some improvements (like for drone handling). CSL has said 8 years to complete. Lets hope good sense prevails and an order is placed soon.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Lets hope better sense prevails and they actually follow through on this.
Hopefully by early next decade, the follow on Vikrant Class will be close to commissioning.
Wish List - wider lifts, more powerful turbines, improved radars and a larger displacement.
Hopefully by early next decade, the follow on Vikrant Class will be close to commissioning.
Wish List - wider lifts, more powerful turbines, improved radars and a larger displacement.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Wider lifts for sure I hope. Our fighters should lift a leg on the enemy not while going up at down on a lift at home.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
A report earlier said it would be simple enough to scale up to 55K tons with the same design. I will see if I can find the report. It would be the same class but slightly bigger.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
From Admiral Arun Prakash (retd), former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy.Prem Kumar wrote:Indian Navy bites the bullet on aircraft carrier question; plans repeat order of Vikrant-Sized carrier instead of a 65,000 tonner
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/indian- ... 000-tonner
20 Feb 2023
https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/16 ... 18918?s=20 ---> It may be prudent for IN to stay with ski-jump & STOBAR ops for IAC-2. Steam catapult on gas-turbine or diesel-powered ship can pose difficulties and IN may not be quite ready to manage induction motor tech of EMALS. Nuclear propulsion would, of course, offer many options.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Folks am disappointed with this thread. The title says IAC-2 News and Discussions and most of the discussion is about EMALS.
Till Vips posted the report about the IAC-2.
Please have some thread discipline.
Thanks.
ramana
Till Vips posted the report about the IAC-2.
Please have some thread discipline.
Thanks.
ramana
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The advice from the former admiral is gratuitous.
The next IAC will have the ski jump.
No new science projects for this.
And if he is keen to know DRDO has decent EMALs in process.
The next IAC will have the ski jump.
No new science projects for this.
And if he is keen to know DRDO has decent EMALs in process.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Before going for a larger AC, Indian Navy should look at <20,000 tons JS Izumo after its recent upgrade. It can now carry 12 J-35B, 8 V-22 Osprey and 7 ASW helos. Not a complement to be scoffed at!
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
IAC-1 Repeat Order or a Vikrant-sized CATOBAR?
https://www.thedefencematrix.in/iac-1-r ... ed-catobar
06 March 2023
https://www.thedefencematrix.in/iac-1-r ... ed-catobar
06 March 2023
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The future PLAN type 76 is supposed to be an EMALS equipped ship with a 94 MW Integrated electric plant.
That is broadly consistent with the power output of 4 *LM 2500 GTs.
It's theoretically possible to build a 50k ton ship with two 25 tons EMALS. It's realisation will depend on the maturity of the indigenous EMALS efforts.
That is broadly consistent with the power output of 4 *LM 2500 GTs.
It's theoretically possible to build a 50k ton ship with two 25 tons EMALS. It's realisation will depend on the maturity of the indigenous EMALS efforts.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
The Indian Navy’s aircraft carrier dilemma
https://www.orfonline.org/research/the- ... r-dilemma/
13 March 2023
By Abhijit Singh
https://www.orfonline.org/research/the- ... r-dilemma/
13 March 2023
By Abhijit Singh
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
Why delay fighter jets for IAF, says the Parliamentary Committee on Defence
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/3019056/
22 March 2023
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/3019056/
22 March 2023
The Committee also asked the government to make a final decision on having a third aircraft carrier, “In no uncertain words, [we] recommend that the Ministry of Defence may take a final decision, chalk out a trajectory and start the planning process for the third aircraft carrier which would eventually enhance India’s maritime capabilities,” the parliamentary panel said in its report on March 21.
Re: Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 2): News & Discussion
US and Indian navies hold sixth meeting on aircraft carrier technology
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/03/us-a ... eting.html
05 March 2023
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/03/us-a ... eting.html
05 March 2023