Newsflash: Kaveri engine successfully test flown!

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Nov 2010 21:13

Are they planning to power the LCA traineers with the current Kaveri????

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Nov 2010 21:24

So do they take it above 6000m in the next phase of trials?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Nov 2010 21:25

Are they planning to power the LCA traineers with the current Kaveri????

and what would be the logic in that??

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 04 Nov 2010 21:32

Austin wrote:Cant they reduce the thrust of 2-3 engines on IL-76 and test the Kaveri in full re-heat or just shut off one engine on IL-76 and then test Kaveri ?

Since this is a 4 engine aircraft with higher margin of safety there must be many ways to skin the cat ?

Seems to be a good (and safe) strategy of stressing an engine for confidence building measures. This set up will always have more redundancy than a twin engine setup. But then the gas dynamics will be very different for 0.6 M and supersonic M's.

So, the testing procedure of first using Il 76 (for general reliability and stress test) then a two engine aircraft (for high speed, high stress tests) and finally a single engine aircraft would be ideal.

Actually a retired Mig 25 airframe could also be used for twin engine high speed stress testing. Such an undertaking will obviously require a lot of work, but if we want to be an engine designer then these setups should be available in house.

LCA has already done 1.1 M at sea level, any info on what max speed has it achieved at high altitudes.

I think LSP 6 has been earmarked for high AOA and kaveri testing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2010 21:40

realistically there is a long way to go to complete fighter style certification on a Tejas testbed - perhaps 6-8 yrs to attain FOC clearance for use in any fighter.

but that is not a problem because MCA project would also take around 7-10 yrs for initial flight probably - assuming CCS clears it soon.

we just need to ensure a good Kaveri is ready and safe for the MCA from day1.

derivates like cruise missile engines using scaled down form factor but same technology are obvious....

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 04 Nov 2010 21:58

Vipul wrote:The IL76 test bed can test the top speed of Kaveri only to the extent that is permissible by the other 3 engines. How would the full envelope of Kaveri be tested for the top speed of Mach 1.8 ?
I know it is too early for Mach 1.8, but heck it Diwali time so i want all the sweets all at once.

I don't think they can test for Mach 1.8 on the IL76. For one thing you'd have to redesign the wings and profile of the IL to fly supersonic. However, it might not be necessary for the test bed to fly at mach 1.8 to fully test the Kaveri. The air entering a fighter's intakes is slowed down to subsonic speeds before it hits the engine parts, even if the fighter is flying supersonic.

What is more important is to test out the Kaveri's thrust at different altitudes and airspeeds.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 04 Nov 2010 22:13

This changes everything for a sanction-proof jingo fighter

. Jai ho.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Nov 2010 22:34

Gaur wrote:Officially, Kaveri has already been decoupled from Tejas program. The Kaveri version that has been tested is K9 and this will not be used in LCA. However, its potential applications are obviously numerous.

The next step will be to develop K10 with the help of SCEMA. If that is ready in time, then there is a chance that K10 will be used in MK2.

The MK2 will use GE engines. The upgraded Kaveri is being eyed as the replacement engine for the MK1s.

Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

“Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),” he said. “There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,” he added.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Nov 2010 22:47

K Prasad garu's 2009 Kaveri report, Once we understand the challenges as seen below, we can appreciate the gravity of the KAveri's first test flight. My saashtaang pranaam to all GTRE folks involved in this.

K Mehta wrote:X-posting from AI-09 thread
k prasad wrote:Ok.... this is the GTRE story - (someone come up with sad music plz).... from the Aeroseminar.

An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.

Any qns???

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 04 Nov 2010 23:18

Very Nice! That picture looks awesome!

Looking forward to the 50-100 hours on this test bed.

Perhaps going forward, GTRE could acquire 4 surplus Mig-29 from russians and convert them to flying testbeds.

For Kaveri-Mk1 80-85KN thrust.
One mig-29 with only one engine replaced with K-MK1
One mig-29 plumbed to take both K-MK1 instead of rd-33.

And the same for Mk-2 with Snecma's help for engine in 95-100KN.
One mig-29 with only one engine replaced with K-MK2
One mig-29 plumbed to take both K-MK2 instead of rd-33.

Once you get reasonable hours in some of these platforms, they can refit it to an LCA prototype.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Nov 2010 00:01

Excellent and very heartening news. Now the AMCA can be realistically hoped to be designed keeping two Kaveri/Snecma K-10 engines in mind.

The best aircraft from the point of view of being a testbed for the Kaveri K9 would be the MiG-29. The RD-33 produces similar amount of thrust and the dimensions will be somewhat similar, meaning that the Kaveri can be fit without costly and very time-consuming effort to re-do the fuselage to fit the Kaveri. Being twin engined is a necessity IMO, for the necessary qualification and certification trials before the Kaveri can fly a single engined fighter aircraft. Reliability will be a key concern. 50-60 hours of reliable in-flight operation on an Il-76 while good are still not enough for a single engined fighter where the aircraft will be lost if a malfunction results in engine failure in flight.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Nov 2010 00:10

Might sound crazy but don't we have those old Su-30Ks in Loheagoan getting nice red tans? Could those be used? We might not even need to buy any working Migs from anywhere. We'd have 16(?) planes to use!

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 05 Nov 2010 00:16

MiG-29 would be good choice for a testing platform given it's high T/W ratio and similarity in Kaveri and RD-33 specs.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Nov 2010 01:09

Good news on the eve of Diwali and bargaining with O's mission to sell or sell no!!

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 05 Nov 2010 01:27

The first thing I want is Kaveri to be used Aux power engine on all Airbus and Boeing aircrafts imported, (the one in the tail) to start with. If you are scared ask for seats in the front part of the aircraft please...

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Nov 2010 02:33

OMG this made my day which was otherwise very disappointing, Godspeed GTRE. Hope that the specs realised are closer to the targeted values.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 05 Nov 2010 05:24

Great news ! Congratulations to GTRE, ADA and BRF !

If there ever was an occasion for Lungi Dance, this is it !

Back to Hibernation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Nov 2010 05:36

k prasad wrote:Ok.... this is the GTRE story
9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.
....
Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support.

Noooooooo!!!!

Let's buy the F-35. Let's support the F-35 instead.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Nov 2010 05:39

AoA ! great news ! now on to certifying it and finally kaveri-2.

JaiS wrote:

Great news ! Congratulations to GTRE, ADA and BRF !

If there ever was an occasion for Lungi Dance, this is it !

you are still around ?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Nov 2010 06:09

This is certainly an epoch making event. Congratulations to all scientists and engineers at GTRE for their perseverance against all odds. Hope the remaining tests are also cleared quickly and we see further progress of integration of Kaveri on Tejas.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Nov 2010 06:12

I will put up more stray thoughts

1) Two most crucial tests Kavei in the flying test bed should be 1) endurance 2) high altitude relighting. Endurance should be anywhere between 3 - 5 hours. The engine will be cut off in the middle of the flight and then will be restarted. IMO, very crucial.

2) There is no such thing "testing kaveri for 1.8 mach speed." It's the function of airframe + engine. More of flight envelope opening. Kaveri will have to be tested for maximum speed for longest hours. IMO, it would have been already done on the bench tests and high altitude tests.

3) Once the FTB is over and the parameters generated, it need not be tested on twin engine.

4) K-9.1 or K-9.5 should be on way as K-9 life is nearly over. They must have enhanced its life with newer replacements, but, a K-9 + should be on her way.

5) Some one asked for trainers to be equiped by Kaveri. The IA had asked for FB tests, why? Kaveri is expected to fly in some application. IM, it is going to be mass produced for something, keep fingers crossed.

6) Next gen Kaveri program should be expected. because the "development" is likely to be over, the development team has to do something. Some key personnel will be hived off for engine development for next generation. Some will remain for kaveri to be taken forward in uprating or down rating for applications. May be HAL will take up the role.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 05 Nov 2010 06:36

Congrats GTRE.
eating soan papdi and doing lungi dance.
SHQ could not understand my excitement.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 05 Nov 2010 07:06

Congrats GTRE and all behind this success! Way to go! This is a shot in the arm for the defence industry - truly catapulting India to the big stage. The applications and use are so diverse, it will transform the desi defence industry.

Kudos and Cheers!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 05 Nov 2010 07:56

This may be a most significant development. Japan does not design/manufacture its own jet engines, curiously. China has had much Russian input into the WS10 WS13 both of which are not trusted by the PLAAF.

A modern jet engine gives India military autarchy, potentially opens commercial aviation industry, and provides big-power league ability to influence strategic policies in SE Asia.

Punjabis don't generally wear lungis, doing the pajama dance.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Nov 2010 08:08

sanjaykumar wrote: Punjabis don't generally wear lungis, doing the pajama dance.

I see. I don't suppose Sikhs are Punjabis then?

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhangra

The costume of a Bhangra dancer consists of a bright, colored Patka on the head, a lacha or lungi of the same color, a long tunic and a black or blue waistcoat and ghunghroos on the ankles. Some dancers also wear small rings (nuntian) in their ears.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Nov 2010 08:09

To Sanjay:Anyone can wear a lungi and do a balle balle. Hence the lungi dance.
For anyone having any doubt. Here is the original version of lungi dance. Admins update the BRF University dictionary with this video.

That's a nice achievement. Is it that India now joins the league of U.S and Russia onlee with the complete technology and know how to make a jet engine without any help from anyone in any area of engine development. So are we advancing from being the 6th 5th to 3rd? Congrats to the GTRE team. Why is the Indian media not showing this great achievement? Why are they running behind Ombaba? May be too much spirituality.
To gurus? Will and can a scaled down version power the HJT Sitara at a later date?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2010 08:14

er france (snecma, turbomeca), UK (RR) and germany (MTU) are also there

china would be ahead too as they have invested heavily and earlier.

its not sure if they local panda su27 or j10 is flying on ws-xx engine but likely have atleast flying testbeds mounted with such.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 05 Nov 2010 08:16

Great News!! and a much welcome one. Though many more milestones to cross with respect to the engine, this is a much needed boost for the people who have been diligently working on it.

Keep it up GTRE - what a story and journey it has been! In terms of waiting and fighting the odds, this has been the sweetest victories of all times.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 05 Nov 2010 08:20

Look at page 4 of the pdf.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/p ... ummary.pdf
I want Kaveri there right now that in itself will be flight testing for dul use..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Nov 2010 08:33

cool. K9 must got K10 now. happy diwali!

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Nov 2010 08:39

Singha wrote:er france (snecma, turbomeca), UK (RR) and germany (MTU) are also there
china would be ahead too as they have invested heavily and earlier.
its not sure if they local panda su27 or j10 is flying on ws-xx engine but likely have atleast flying testbeds mounted with such.

I just want to know whether anyone makes it on their own. The complete one without any assistance for either technology, materials or other components from the bear of sherkhan?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 05 Nov 2010 08:42

I think the APU is a small output turbine.

In Panjab, tumbas are similar to lungis but not commonly worn.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Nov 2010 09:00

even if the european ones use unkil materials they are not dependent on them. they can go it alone if needed. all western manufacturers are interlinked so US engine manufacturers might have a nut or two from europe as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2010 09:02

indeed and spanish and italian cos like hispano suiza supply vital subsystems too even if they dont make the whole thing ... eurojet ej200 is a joint thing too (rolls royce + MTU).

once we can make the whole thing, all restrictions will be dropped and people queueing up to supply whatever we need as space for us is made inside the tent.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Nov 2010 09:03

If we do everything from scratch and from first principles, is good enough to congratulate, no matter slipped schedules and where the real tech comes from. I like the 3 I policy - Imitate, Implement, Innovate.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Nov 2010 09:28

And this comes without any experience from world war II. So this is indeed a great achievement.
Now can the Rafale or Typhoon being selected can have the Kaveri instead of the underpowered engines. Can we fit two Kaveris into Rafale or Typhoon?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Nov 2010 09:36

uddu wrote:Now can the Rafale or Typhoon being selected can have the Kaveri instead of the underpowered engines. Can we fit two Kaveris into Rafale or Typhoon?

Not too long ago, the French were talking precisely of this option - Kaveri powered Rafales. As of now the engine is a mite to heavy imho, but still it does provide greater thrust than the M88s. Ideally it would shed 150kgs and then make it to the rafale. If that a/c manages to keep its empty weight around 10000kg, and has 2X8.5ton Kaveris powering it; its TWR will be insane!

CM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Nov 2010 10:37

^^ Changing engine on the fighter is not a simple task , they will have to go through many hours of sucessful flight testing programs and M88 and EJ200 is a proven engine with thousands of flight hours to its credit , something IAF will not feel necessary to change if they opt for one of this bird.

Kaveri is made for Tejas so ideally it should power the Tejas.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Nov 2010 11:09

Austin, it is not as big a deal as it is made out to be. aircrafts get re-engined all the time.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 05 Nov 2010 11:34

Congratulations to everyone involved in the project.

Now, I don't understand why most of comments in this thread advice GRTE to install the engines on Su-30 or MiG-29 when it is very clear that it won't power any manned fighter aircraft. Why should we waste time and funds so that the engine could fly for 100-150 hrs on a fighter which it is not supposed to power. The engine in most probability will be tested on full throttle on the the IL-76 testbed which IMHO is good enough for the project. One should not forget that GRTE is confident to install the K9 in the LCA without the IL-76 testing. These testings are meant to test the reliability of the engines, other parameters were already tested in lab. The K9 engine will face similar condition which it is currently facing on the IL-76 when installed on the LCA (be it at supersonic or subsonic speed).

I think the GRTE should directly install the K9 on LCA or even better continue to tweak it to perform on the UAV's and other applications. They should focus on "what it will do rather what it was suppose to do".

Happy Diwali