Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/solutions

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ASPuar
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Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/solutions

Post by ASPuar »

A series of scams, scandals, and disasters have shaken the armed forces (the army in particular), in the last ten years. Starting with Tehelka, and leading on to the present Tent Scam, Adarsh Scam, Ration Procurement Scam, Sukna scam, etc etc. Whereas of course much of the media hype is often just that (the media being no clean zone by any means, as we have recently seen), there certainly is no smoke without fire, and these issues must be examined. Further, I should like to examine what effect, if any, entry standards are having on the probity of the services.


I would like to use this thread to explore why standards have fallen to an extent where such scams are becoming de rigeur in the services.

1. It is not that there are no principled officers in the armed forces. There are several. But, at higher (enabling) levels, political/bureaucratic/corrupt service officer "management" of the promotion system may be stifling the careers of the honest ones.

2. There has always been some level of corruption in the defence services as well. But the corrupt were always vastly outnumbered by the honest. Is this changing?

3. The "corrupt society" so "corrupt armed forces" argument doesnt really hold. We have had a high level of corruption in society for a very long time, but the trend is catching up to the forces only now.

4. What is the way forward? Is Gen VK Singh's strategy working?


Please note that this thread is not a military bashing thread. We at BR are all proud of our nation, and its armed forces, and to see these slurs impinging upon this institution is painful to many of us. This is why, I would like to explore these issues, in a manner respectful of the service and its institutions.

Please give your comments.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ASPuar »

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... rstory.asp
AT EASE WITH GREASE

General Deepak Kapoor may seem like a terrible aberration. But BRIJESH PANDEY finds the rot runs deeper in the army


AS THE saga of General (retd) Deepak Kapoor and Company unfolds, the nation is traumatised by the crumbling of a pillar it still believes in, by and large. Can the country still bank on this institution to keep the borders safe as well as rush in to save the day when there is a natural calamity or civil strife? Does the rot go deep or is it confined to a few aberrations?

It was in 2001 that TEHELKA’s seminal exposé on corruption in defence procurement — ‘Operation Westend’ — graphically laid bare the dangerous spread of the cancer of corruption in the higher ranks of the Indian Army. But instead of launching a no-holds barred clean-up act, the establishment and the army encouraged a witch-hunt against TEHELKA. The then NDA government used the State machinery to hit back. The gunfire was clearly misdirected, for it created an enabling environment for corruption to grow, as seen in the indictment of senior officers in corruption cases in the past five years. An opportunity to put the house in order was wasted.

As the decade closes, there is now a darker cloud over the army. But there is also a silver lining made up of several strands: that whistles were blown, that other officers went by the book trying to expose embezzlements, that Courts of Inquiry (CoI) scrupulously did their job, that court martials were proposed. And now, hopefully, thanks to the unsparing glare of media exposure, the establishment will fight to regain the stature and pride of place it enjoyed until a decade ago.

OFFICERS, NOT GENTLEMEN

The turn of the millennium has seen many scams blight the army’s image


There’s a compelling reason why the defence establishment — which includes politicians, bureaucrats and military bureaucrats — needs to stop the tide of corruption. By 2015, India would have spent Rs. 2.21 lakh crore on what consultancy firm KPMG terms “one of the largest procurement cycles in the world”. Leading global defence manufacturers are flocking to Delhi for a slice of our defence spending. Indian firms too stand to gain contracts worth Rs. 44,299 crore. The scope for kickbacks and grease money are obvious.

Three months ago, Patrick Choy, chief marketing officer of Singapore-based defence firm ST Kinetics, blurted out what is known as the emerging truth for foreign defence firms operating in India: “It’s come to a point where I wonder about ST Kinetics being driven out of the Indian market by frustration. We cannot simply continue with something that appears like a black hole.” His firm, reportedly blacklisted during Kapoor’s tenure, was in competition with BAE Systems for the Rs. 13,289 crore 155-mm gun contract.

Kapoor has become an object of hatred for armymen and women, serving and retired, with good reason: it is said that he didn’t just pocket a few kickbacks, he allegedly invited the entire evil axis of corruption — politician-contractor-police-bureaucrat — into the office of the army chief. He did this by letting it be known within political circles that he is pliable and ready to use his office to share the spoils. Some officers blame his predecessor General NC Vij for starting the slide.

A PART FROM the scope for making money under the table in equipment purchases, there is immense opportunity in the prime land owned by the armed forces, which is coveted by real estate sharks backed by politicians. This is where the defence establishment could stand firm, or succumb to the neta-broker combine. Other officers are outraged. “It hurts like hell,” says Maj Gen (retd) GD Bakshi, when asked about the Adarsh scam. In fact, when the Maharashtra government gave the building the operational certificate, Western Naval Commander Vice Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin wrote that the skyscraper poses a security threat to the nearby naval base and sought action against the promoters and officers involved since 2003.


Kapoor and Vij feigning ignorance about the fact that this society was meant to house Kargil war widows did not cut much ice with their own fraternity. “A senior officer saying he didn’t know that the flats were meant for war widows? What nonsense. Then they are unfit to hold that rank,” says Major General (retd) SCN Jatar.

His scepticism is borne out by facts. When Kapoor applied for the Adarsh flat in 2005, the membership rules were clear: an aspirant should have lived in Mumbai for 15 years. To get this waived, he wrote to then CM Vilasrao Deshmukh, who obliged him with a domicile certificate. His salary slip submitted with the application showed an income of only Rs. 23,450 per month. When his attention was drawn to the fake slip, he expressed surprise.

Equally damningly, Trinamool Congress MP Ambika Banerjee, in a letter dated 5 August, had written to the defence minister that Kapoor had assets disproportionate to his known sources of income. “There’s a flat in Dwarka Sector 29, three flats in Gurgaon Sector 23, one flat in Gurgaon Sector 42/44, a flat in Gurgaon Phase III and a house in Lokhandwala in Mumbai,” she revealed in her letter. Kapoor had met Defence Minister AK Antony to deny this allegation.

The shock of all these skeletons tumbling out is so profound that former army chief VP Malik says, “Nothing has hurt the army as much as this latest scam as far as corruption is concerned.”

But the trail goes all the way back to the Sukhna land scam in which Kapoor was perceived as going soft on Lieutenant General Awdhesh Prakash, his military secretary. To recall the story: a private educational institution, Geetanjali Educational Trust, was allowed to purchase 70 acres near the 33 Corps in Sukhna. Investigations revealed the involvement of several top officers, including Lt Gen Rath, Lt Gen Halgali and Prakash. How serious was the damage can be gauged from the fact that Rath was all set to take over as deputy army chief and Prakash was one of the eight military advisors to the army chief with the most enviable charge — promotions and postings. General VK Singh, the current army chief, was then GOC-in-C of the Eastern Command and headed the COI constituted to probe charges against all four. The COI found them guilty and it recommended that Prakash be sacked. However, Kapoor stepped in and recommended that only administrative action should be taken against him. This caused so much commotion that Antony had to write a letter to the army chief asking for a court martial.

That’s not all. In 2006, Maj Gen Malhotra of the Ordnance Corps floated a proposal for purchase of tents worth Rs. 16 crore. It was said in the proposal that there was an extreme shortage of tents and they should be purchased using the special financial powers of the Area Commander. The file then went to Major General General Staff (MGGS) of the Northern Command, who wrote on the file, “Are we going to spend the army’s special financial power for buying tents which are supposed to be supplied by Ordnance?” What was surprising was that three months after that rejection, Malhotra again moved a proposal recalling that he had proposed the purchase three months ago and said that the troops are suffering because of tent shortage. This time, the MGGS signed the file without a murmur. Kapoor also gave his nod.

By 2015, India would have spent Rs. 2.21 lakh crore on ‘one of the largest procurement cycles in the world’

After that, Kapoor moved over to army headquarters as vice-chief. On the day Lt Gen HS Panag took over as commander, he found an anonymous note apprising him of the tent scam. On investigation, it was found that tents were not even needed. A COI under Maj Gen Sapru found that Malhotra was guilty of siphoning off Rs. 1.6 crore. Panag issued an order that would stop Malhotra’s future promotions.

Panag had no idea that he had stirred a hornet’s nest — Kapoor had by that time become army chief, and ordered Panag’s transfer to the Central Command in the middle of his two-year tenure. Panag met Kapoor but was curtly told that transfers were his prerogative. Panag also met Antony. “It was clear that Kapoor was rattled but then, between an army chief and an army commander, Antony chose the chief,” a retired officer said on the condition of anonymity.

This incident is cause for much heartburn in the army, as it is unusual that an army commander is moved in the middle of his tenure. Further blows were dealt to the defence establishment when the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report on defence services for the year ended March 2007 tabled in Parliament indicted the then Northern Command chief for misusing powers delegated to him for special operational requirements.

TEHELKA CONTACTED Kapoor several times to get his version. On the fifth call, he refused to rebut the charges against him. “There are a lot of things going on and I would not like to comment,” he says.

What a mighty fall this has been for a respected institution can be gauged from the fact that till 2002-03, the thought of court martialling an officer of the rank of major general was considered to be a rarity. In 2010, names of former chiefs are figuring in scams. The fall has been precipitate. Apart from these headline-grabbing scams of the past five years, there are others in almost every department of the army. Be it Supply Corps or Ordnance, top officers were busy siphoning off money. :

• In 2006, a COI found Maj Gen Gur Iqbal Singh Multani, four brigadiers and seven other officers guilty of sale of military quota liquor in the open market.
• In 2006, Lt Gen Surendra K Sahni, a major general, two brigadiers and eight other officers were found guilty of massive irregularities in procurement of ‘certain items of dry rations’ for soldiers in Jammu & Kashmir.
• In 2007, a COI indicted Lt Gen SK Dahiya Brigadier DVS Vishnoi and three other officers for alleged irregularities in the operation of the ‘frozen meat contract’ for supplies to troops posted in the highaltitude Ladakh sector.
• In 2009, 41 officers were found guilty of selling their ‘non-service pattern’ weapons for personal use in the grey market.

So, what made these senior officers shift from first gear to fourth in such a short span, when it came to corruption?

According to Maj Gen (retd) Afsar Kareem, “These kind of things happen when the top leadership is weak and corrupt. The culture is that everybody looks up. If the man on the top is clean, nobody down the ranks dare do anything. But if the chap at the top looks the other way or himself is involved, or his honesty is not fully established, he fails in every respect, be it war or peace he is not fit for the army. But by then, because they help each other, they get promotions, they get decorations and this develops a nexus if left unchecked.”

Most senior army people agree that a general doesn’t become corrupt only when he attains that rank. The question that logically arises then is: How does a guy who is corrupt rise to that level?

At fault is a promotion policy based on the whims and fancies of the top echelons of the military and politicians. “If you are clever and you are dishonest then you have a better chance of promotion than being honest and professionally competent, unless the people at the top recognise that and unless the government plays a part,” says Kareem. “The government generally likes to put an yes-man in that position. And the man who has much to hide is always a yes-man.”

Maj Gen AK Kapur had a net worth of Rs. 41,000 when he joined the army in 1971. By 2007, his net was Rs. 5.5 crore

A senior officer confirmed TEHELKA’s suspicion that the Adarsh and Sukhna land scam are merely tips of the iceberg. “The real scam happens in the procurement department,” he said. “First there is the Army Supply Corps. We have 13 lakh soldiers. Now if we spend Rs. 50 per day on one soldier’s food, the daily budget would be Rs. 6.5 crore. Imagine the kind of money involved and the potential for siphoning it off.”

Then there is Ordnance, which supplies everything, from socks to weapons. Its annual budget is Rs. 8,000-10,000 crore. Tellingly, throughout 2009 the corps had no chief as the three eligible officers were facing graft charges. Maj Gen AK Kapur (according to the chargesheet), had a net worth of Rs. 41,000 when he joined the army in 1971. By 2007, his assets had grown to Rs. 5.5 crore. He owns 13 properties in Delhi, Gurgaon, Shimla and Goa.

Maj Gen Anil Swarup, who was officiating commandant of the College of Materials Management, Jabalpur, has also been found guilty of irregularities in the purchase of items for a unit headed on a UN peacekeeping mission. He inflated prices, CWG style — 100-KVA generators available in the market for Rs. 7 lakh were bought for Rs. 15 lakh, cables sold for Rs. 300 were got for Rs. 2,000. The same firm that supplied shoes to a Delhi school for Rs. 700 supplied to the army for Rs. 1,200. This Rs. 100- crore loot continued from 2006 to 2008.

After Supply and Ordnance comes the Military Engineering Service, which also works for the navy and air force. Its annual construction budget is at least 10,000- 12,000 crore, with buildings and airstrips perpetually under construction. In this, 10 percent commission is regarded as ‘legitimate’. All of these scams require a nexus with defence and finance ministry staff.

IF THIS brazen corruption continues, soldier morale and consequently the security of the country comes under threat. “It erodes the command and control chain. After all, military leadership is inspirational,” says Maj Gen GD Bakshi. “I can’t tell a soldier: I will give you a Rs. 5,000 bonus, please go and die. But he goes and dies for a Rs. 5,000 salary because it is for the honour of his country, his unit.”

A senior officer adds: “Below the rank of colonel, there is no corruption — if you leave aside procurement department or minor incidents. As people get independent, get more power, they start alignments with their bosses and this is when they are moulded as one of the corrupt lot. They don’t sign the main contract but remain in the shadow of their bosses.”

Several officers believe that this rot can be stemmed in time if the army makes an example of those indicted, as it was in the Sukhna land scam. According to Maj Gen Jatar, “In my opinion they should have been stripped of rank. They have no business to be called generals and retired chiefs of the army or navy. Lower ranks must see that even former chiefs are not spared.”

To get rid of the plague, serving and retired army personnel agree that it’s time for extreme action. You have to sacrifice a limb in order to save the body — otherwise, watch one of the most magnificent institutions crumble before your eyes.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Austin »

I do not look at the decline in standards in Armed Forces in a narrow prospective but the over all decline in standards in Political,Bureaucratic class and aaam elite junta.

The Armed Force are just part of the society and no matter how disciplined they are they would still reflect the society in general.

Armed forces bosses are selected/appointed by Political Bosses , If a Politician is corrupt he wont select a Babu or General that would be a pain to deal with but would rather select a person who will accept his decision and can co-opt them if required.

Hence most of the recent scams involves Politician,Babus and Military man alike.

I still believe and would like to believe that most of the rank and file in the armed forces are immune to corrupt practices and would put dignity and honor over any kind of greed.

It is the top cream who can take decision and whose involvement would be very critical are the people who would be vulnerable ( or willingly involved ) with Politicians and Babus , end up giving a bad name to armed forces and worst of all the three class would end up going unpunished.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by SriSri »

I have to agree with Austin. It is a systemic decline in all aspects of society. However, be the change and inspire others is the way forward.

I am extremely impressed with General V.K. Singh's approach. It is practical, pragmatic and does not indulge in any form of self denial.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Gaur »

IMHO, the "apparent" rise of corruption in armed forces is because of:

1> Media: It is not that there were no corruption issues earlier. It is just that media was not so big earlier.

2> Armed forces Accountability and Action: Unlike other institutions, Armed forces punish the guilty no matter the rank. In other institutions, the corruption only comes to forefront when it is exposed by external sources (CBI, media etc). Armed forces are unique in this matter as they themselves find the defaulters and give speedy judgements.

3> Another aspect is corruption at higher level. This point is hearsay so take it FWIW. In earlier days (pre mid 90s), generally Court of Enquity was not set up for Generals. Instead, when any General was found guily, it was generally preffered to force him to take retirement. This was done in order to save face.

Note that I am not implying that there has been no decline in standards. It is true that flattering the CO may result in better ACR than honesty. This leads to lower standards at top level. However, this is a problem that is nearly impossible to eliminate IMHO.

But I think that Gen V.K Singh is approaching this problem in the right way. Most people (especially in IA) fail to understand the power of a complaint. One complaint letter to GOC or AHQ has made many a COs shiver. Any complaint (even anonymous) is taken very seriously and examined thoroughly. However, most IA personnel do not seem to take advantage of that. This is where COAS's approach seems right. He is urging people to point out if they find anything amiss. He assures that they will be protected and action will be taken.
Last edited by Gaur on 26 Nov 2010 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by negi »

3. The "corrupt society" so "corrupt armed forces" argument doesnt really hold. We have had a high level of corruption in society for a very long time, but the trend is catching up to the forces only now. ;
This is not TRUE and it is not even a RIGHT thing to say. The corruption was always there its just that things come to light more often these days. Irregularities in allocation of housing was there since time of my grandpa it's just that Adarsh took it to another level.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ASPuar »

negi wrote:
3. The "corrupt society" so "corrupt armed forces" argument doesnt really hold. We have had a high level of corruption in society for a very long time, but the trend is catching up to the forces only now. ;
This is not TRUE and it is not even a RIGHT thing to say. The corruption was always there its just that things come to light more often these days. Irregularities in allocation of housing was there since time of my grandpa it's just that Adarsh took it to another level.

Corruption was always there. It was not always so blatant as to reallocate defence land as belonging to the state government, tampering of documents, and illegal constructions. Face it. Corruption has reached the next level.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by SriSri »

Corruption was always there. It was not always so blatant as to reallocate defence land as belonging to the state government, tampering of documents, and illegal constructions. Face it. Corruption has reached the next level.
Incorrect.

1. Corruption was always there, the scale increases because India of the 60's and 70's in not the India of today. Economy has exponentially scaled up, and in this light, the scale up of corruption isn't surprising.

2. Media (as corrupt as it itself is) now sheds more light on corruption in the military, which wasn't the case 3 decades ago.

PS: Quoting Tehelka! LOL! :P
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by manish.rastogi »

i guess some serious restructuring is needed in armed forces....some procedures and guidelines need to be upgraded....armed forces need to be made technologically savvy...


PS-all most all departaments, ministeries etc. need restructuring....
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ASPuar »

"Corruption was always there" is surmise. I am also saying it was always there. But the fact is that there were people who checked it. It didnt reach the very top. Few would say that Sundarji, or Malhotra or Krishna Rao were corrupt. But what is happening today?

Ps: Even Tehelka can produce a reasonable article once in a way.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by shiv »

How about applying the same standards to the this thread as we do to the 2G scam thread? This is about armed forces corruption. So what if corruption occurs in the rest of society? People are trying to shift the blame away from the main guilty party by saying "Corruption occurs in other areas of society", Just like "shills" try to shift the blame away from the guilty Congress party for the 2G scam by claiming that corruption occurs everywhere.

Sauce for the goose equal equal to sauce for the gander no :?:
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ShivaS »

where is JEM saar ban the posters and close the thread, there are no standards to be worried that are in decline, absolutely none that I can see. We are adarsh (role model) for many countries...

IBTL ( second time I used IBTL, I never do this but I am constrained)


Oh by the way Welcome to Adarsh Moron club, where our Motto is
We are honestly corrupt.
One and all can join

(Spelling correction of Adarsh, hard to spell and hard to be too)
Last edited by ShivaS on 27 Nov 2010 18:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by sanjeevpunj »

It is not right to get away by saying "Corruption was always there" and ho hum lets continue with it....... It is a sign of weakness when one says that. If you did see corruption, did you join it or oppose it.You cannot have a neutral view (its as good as allowing it).Opposing corruption is difficult, joining it is easy.Leadership should be above average, and strongly opposed to corruption.Its a shame on the men in political circles, that they are reminded by a woman (Sonia Gandhi) to eliminate corruption.I admire her courage for what she says.A lot of weaklings in Congress-I squirm in her presence.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Surya »

remember my statements about Vij and Kapoor

I said I will put this back at a more appropriate stage.

Whats sad is not only these 2 were corrupt but were no shakes in military intellect too.

The last clean chief was Paddy - a mess supplier told me that as soon as the function is over Mrs Paddy would call him and ask for the bill.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Christopher Sidor »

In a NDTV talk show with Burkha, few months back, there was a discussion about one pension one rank. In that Burkha asked the corporal that what did his children do. The corporal said that they are in the army. Burkha then asked why, the corporal said, "I could not devote time to my kids due to postings and I have no money." The last point is important.
Prior to independence and prior to liberalisations, Indian armed forces paid a lot in salary terms compared to their counterparts in Indian society and economy. But now the situation is reversed. The pay in the private sector has gone up significantly but not that much in army and the public sector. The perks are there, but not pay.
Prior to independence the Britishers use to pay their British/non-native engineers and civil servants handsome amount. As most of the executive-engineers were non-native they were paid very good amounts. Post independence, our leaders did not pay the same amount to native executive engineers. The reason given was, "we are poor and we cannot pay that much." We have to pay our civil servants and our armed forces better, or their standards will decline. We will not be able to attract and retain the best talent for our armed forces if we do not do so.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by negi »

The first thing which services need to be wary of is their interaction with the rabid political class. We already know that criminalization of politics coupled with inherent limitations of a democracy like ours are major handicaps when it comes to 'cleansing' the political arena and these bozos have already reduced the IAS and IPS to mere political instruments so it is imperative that the top brass be shielded from the politicos. Adarsh incident is a classic example of the above for it is not the usual one off incident where someone redirected the logistical supplies to the black market or say took a bribe from a middleman for a usual maintenance or construction tender this was systemically planned and coordinated by the bad apples from the services and the politicos . Now I would say to stem this rot and prevent this from happening again the services should make an example of the guilty lets not even talk about the civilians/politicos involved right now for we know they might/will escape but if the services wish to command a high respect and more importantly remain 'CLEAN' they better make an example of the guilty. For a start they should find out as to who were responsible for giving a clearance for construction of a civilian structure on army land that too close to a defense station.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Suresh S »

[quote="Austin"]
The Armed Force are just part of the society and no matter how disciplined they are they would still reflect the society in general.


/quote]
I had a heated discussion with one of my relatives 2 decades ago about this topic when it was reported that some indian soldiers were caught trying to smuggle television sets into india from srilanka when IPKF was there. And he exactly said the same thing as your quote above. I was trying to take the side of the indian armed forces .
I guess he was right and I was wrong.
Anyway good post Austin
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Thread Starter ASP,

You asked for the "solutions". The Military (in all countries) work as per DRAFTS of the Govt Notifications issued by Cabinet Ministers and DRAFTS of Legislations. So when you asked for solutions, you want it in format of DRAFTS or in format of philosophy papers?

.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Sharma »

As the long standing tradition at BR entire blame is again shifted to Netas and Babus. What a shameful and laughable defence of corrupt armed personnels.

Just because higher appointments in Defence are being authorized by Politicians and Bureaucrats does not make corrupt faujis any less guilty. Political appointments in armed forces are being done since ages in all democracies over the world.

Now why?

Most relevant reason I could make out is increased public interaction since independence and especially after Kashmir erupted in ’87. If you continuously use armed forces as police then you know what they will become. And with enormous powers army achieves those standards (or depths) of corruption ultra fast. Naughty neighbours and various security situation developments did not allow defence forces to go back to barrack but kept on increasing their role. Naxal problem is totally an internal problem and no body (except HM) wanted defence forces to be involved there as it will not increase their budgets.

Then after ’91’s economic policy changes there was a rapid increase and improvement in employment levels in private sector. A country where Govt job was considered best for anybody for its attributes like stability, steady growth, pension and pride, suddenly saw private sector as better way of achieving dreams. Gap kept on increasing. Then we saw disinvestment in PSUs and other Govt businesses which made them profitable and rise in salaries and perks. Slowly Defence forces started finding themselves pariah as far as fruit of economically stronger India. Anybody should not be surprised. Cost centres are always last to get benefits. Nothing to do with Netas and Babus. Pay commission 2006 did manage to ford the gap somehow and changes are happening.

These 2 main reasons which made Defence corrupt and we are seeing Fauji scams everyother day.
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Surya »

sigh


another thread with RM entry


sharma

unfair to label whole BR with a certain viewpoint because of a couple of people who have way too much time and rack up 10000 posts :((

for example moi has blamed the Generals involved wholesale -others have in diff places
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Avarachan »

I'm a second-generation NRI who has returned to India for a 2-year Master's in a security-related field. After the terrorist attacks of the past few years, and especially after 26/11, I wanted to do something tangible to help India.

I have been shocked by the level of corruption and dishonesty I see here. I see it in my own classmates. 80% of them cheat. There are a few who don't. There is a Mallu leftist who doesn't. There's a Hindu Rajput, the son of an IAF officer, who doesn't. But virtually everyone else does. I will note that there are several people in my class who plan to enter the armed forces, the police, the IAS, IFS, etc.

It is deeply naïve to think that one sector of society can isolate itself from the culture and mores of the rest of society. Does any sensible person even want that? The Indian military is not a mercenary force, filled with foreigners. We should want our military personnel to come from our own country and our own culture--that's why we can have confidence in their loyalty. Their commitment to India is not primarily a matter of money; it is the fact that when they go into battle, they are defending their homes and their families.

It is only natural that over time, the Indian military will reflect the larger culture of India. There might be a historical abberation for a few decades, but over time, the situation will revert to the norm.

The better questions are these: Why is Indian society so corrupt? Why does Indian society tolerate corruption?

The question of the toleration of corruption is the most interesting to me. There are other countries in the world which are corrupt. But India stands out in the world community in its toleration of corruption. I've experienced this myself. I've complained to the professors, but they don't seem very bothered about the issue. They seem to accept it as a part of life: "That's just how we Indians are." I've talked to students from other departments. They say, "In India, you can find everything, both good and bad. Don't get upset about it." What I feel like screaming at them is, "And it that a good thing? Do you want to board a flight, believing that some pilots are honest, and others have lied about their educational qualifications? Do you want to have an operation, knowing that some surgeons are honest, and others are using sub-standard equipment so they can be more profitable? Do you want to live in a country where some military procurement officers are honest, and others are acquiring defective equipment for the sake of kickbacks?"

Anyone who knows me knows what I think the solution is: I believe in the Faith of the Indian Orthodox Church. (I converted, actually: I had questions that the faith of my parents could not answer, and that prompted my search.)

Now, one does not have to be a Christian to be honest. I don't know what kind of solution most Indians will want to adopt for this issue. But I do know this: we either will solve this, or we should worry about the survival of our country.

I'm not exaggerating. This semester, I've been studying Indian military history. I've been struck that so many times, the problem has not been the courage or the competence of Indian soldiers. The problem, rather, is that some Indians are willing to betray other Indians for personal advantage.

It is naïve to think that that can not happen again.

Here are some articles for your reflection.
"Why Indians don't give back to society."
http://www.livemint.com/2009/07/0220345 ... ive-b.html
"Some characteristics unite Indians. The most visible is our opportunism."

"Something's rotten in the state of India," Ambassador Gajendra Singh.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL10Df03.html
ASPuar
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ASPuar »

IMO, All questions are not answered by a simple conversion, and nor is that the answer to any corruption ills. That is a personal choice, (and even then, it is often induced under unethical circumstances in our country). Young minds are open to many such ideas, and cynical old men with their own agendas are often keen to exploit them. But thats a different story.

I think that the vast majority of Indians do not tolerate corruption. But that is beyond the scope of this thread. The Corruption in society argument works only so far as departments in the MoD where defence officers work with civilians who are behaving corruptly can be influenced. Eg., the MES, the ASC procurement wings, etc.

Agree completely that history is often repeated, and we should learn something from it.
svinayak
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by svinayak »

ASPuar wrote:IMO, All questions are not answered by a simple conversion, and nor is that the answer to any corruption ills. That is a personal choice, (and even then, it is often induced under unethical circumstances in our country).
Why do we allow this religion thing to come to this issue.
Get that out of the discussion and make arguments such as socialism, media problems, leadership issues.
Surya
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Surya »

Anyone who knows me knows what I think the solution is: I believe in the Faith of the Indian Orthodox Church. (I converted, actually: I had questions that the faith of my parents could not answer, and that prompted my search.)
obviously the phillipines and various other countries missed this divine revelation :mrgreen:

seriously this is nonsensical and off topic
Viv S
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Viv S »

I hope no one's labouring under the delusion that there was less corruption in the armed forces, politics, civil services or judiciary in the past. If you are... a few interactions with informed old timers will give you enough incentive to completely reverse your opinion.

There is greater oversight and transparency today, which implies we see more scams and corruption than our Doordarshan watching public in the past. If you're horrified by these exposes, we've still got the option of going back to sweet ignorance.

Pakistani generals, marshals and admirals have never been convicted of any corruption. I envy their incorruptible armed forces.
Fidel Guevara
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Avarachan wrote:I'm a second-generation NRI who has returned to India for a 2-year Master's in a security-related field.
And I have a double Ph.D in Global Military Strategy and International Geopolitics. :D

Where did that guy go, by the way?
Last edited by Fidel Guevara on 29 Nov 2010 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
ShivaS
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by ShivaS »

• In 2006, a COI found Maj Gen Gur Iqbal Singh Multani, four brigadiers and seven other officers guilty of sale of military quota liquor in the open market.
• In 2006, Lt Gen Surendra K Sahni, a major general, two brigadiers and eight other officers were found guilty of massive irregularities in procurement of ‘certain items of dry rations’ for soldiers in Jammu & Kashmir.
• In 2007, a COI indicted Lt Gen SK Dahiya Brigadier DVS Vishnoi and three other officers for alleged irregularities in the operation of the ‘frozen meat contract’ for supplies to troops posted in the highaltitude Ladakh sector.
• In 2009, 41 officers were found guilty of selling their ‘non-service pattern’ weapons for personal use in the grey market.
Hope JEM is reading all these are cases above the rank of Lt Col and Col.

***
As for Avarachan

I strongly recomend him for Supreme commander of the Salvation Army and purple heart to hang on his right side of the chest.
rohitvats
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Re: Decline in standards in the armed forces - causes/soluti

Post by rohitvats »

ShivaS wrote:
• In 2006, a COI found Maj Gen Gur Iqbal Singh Multani, four brigadiers and seven other officers guilty of sale of military quota liquor in the open market.
• In 2006, Lt Gen Surendra K Sahni, a major general, two brigadiers and eight other officers were found guilty of massive irregularities in procurement of ‘certain items of dry rations’ for soldiers in Jammu & Kashmir.
• In 2007, a COI indicted Lt Gen SK Dahiya Brigadier DVS Vishnoi and three other officers for alleged irregularities in the operation of the ‘frozen meat contract’ for supplies to troops posted in the highaltitude Ladakh sector.
• In 2009, 41 officers were found guilty of selling their ‘non-service pattern’ weapons for personal use in the grey market.
Hope JEM is reading all these are cases above the rank of Lt Col and Col.

<SNIP>
Do you know how many Brigadiers and Major Generals and above ranked officers are there in the Indian Army? And can you please tell me how the above instances are an indictment of the entire structure of senior ranks in the IA?

Your comparison of IA top-ranks with PA is nothing but plain and simple bull-shit and in bad taste......pointing to corruption in the Services is one thing - but to paint the whole structure as corrupt is nonsense.....
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