AMCA News and Discussions

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 03 Nov 2014 12:22

AMCA slide is too hazy to get correct data.

Its empty weight seems to be 10t instead of11t, internal fuel 4.5t instead of 6.5t , length 17.5m instead of 17.1m, service ceiling of 15Km instead of 14Km and MTOW of 21t instead of 23t while its normal take of weight is 16.5t instead of 18.5 as given in earlier post.

Its internal fuel is 4.5t can be confirmed as its cap endurance is 2hrs which should be minimum 2.5hrs as given for FGFA with higher fraction of fuel.

In air combat stealthy mission its TOW will be 16t and while for Ground attack role will be 16.5t in stealth mode. With external payload of 4T MTOW comes to 20.5T with margin of further 500Kg.

Its same as Rafale class in terms of internal fuel and empty weight with extra 2m length for increased volume to carry internal weapon load.

My estimate is MTOW can go up to 25T only when 2*1000Kg=2t external saddle fuel tanks are carried and both wings carry total 2*1200kg+2*1800Kg=6000kg payload weapon stations.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Dec 2014 17:31

Some tweets from SJha related to AMCA on 17th Dec:

AMCA has entered project definition phase. Six engine OEMs are being evaluated. RFP for engine will be issued in 2015.

AMCA will be powered by two 110 KN class engines.

IAF fully supports the AMCA program also. And is basically running the UCAV program.

Do note however, that AMCA wind tunnel tests actually took place in an American facility.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 18 Dec 2014 02:19

^^^ When did the wind tunnel testing happen? Any details?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Dec 2014 02:41

I'm disappointed by the wind-tunnel news, if correct.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Dec 2014 09:03

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:^^^ When did the wind tunnel testing happen? Any details?

No, I asked him on twitter but so far no reply.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 Dec 2014 19:08

Another interesttng tweet by SJha:

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 ·

With the AMCA, ADA is not attempting an uber fighter. But a useful one that can be completed on time.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Dec 2014 12:05

There was a poster pic in somewhere which hinted at how the ADA would approach the subject. It carried mention of starting with the technologies of LCA and only later on accumulating other technologies as they become available. This would obviously be an organic growth path unlike the ameriki refrain of 5th Gen is ab initio ground up (otherwise UNO will not authorize it to become a 5th Gen!).

This should give breathing space to the engineers. Additionally with the experience of having dealt with IAF (on LCA), it may actually turn out faster, since it would afford all the freedom to IAF in terms of articulation of requirements. Less heartburn all round, good for desh. This should also help the political authority, by keeping the costs marked to the progress and they can be better questioned about the start of production.

On the flip side, the final product may not look like anything anybody would love

. Perfect KLPD.

I say, no need to have it loved. Aim should be to achieve a state where all sides can be forced to gulp it, once the brew is done.

Jeh raha

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5739&start=440#p1029309

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Dec 2014 12:34

I agree. Aim should be to get a twin-engined LCA+, where the airframe has been designed with better tech than available for LCA 25 years ago. This heavier LCA+ with all the avionics and capabilities of LCA would itself be a formidable jump for our arsenal. Sensor fusion and super cruise can come later, so long as the airframe is capable of it.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 27 Dec 2014 13:58

A note on India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project

By Saurav Jha

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 27 Dec 2014 14:04

AMCA
MTOW of 24.2 T
Internal weapon load of 3T.
Requirement of 105 KN engine. 5% margin therefore RFP of 110 KN.
Rs 4000 Cr for 3-4 flying prototypes.
First flight by 2020-21.
Rs 100 Cr spent so far.

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Dec 2014 17:59

OT but a twin engined LCA would have the range endurance and payload that would increase the Indian Navys capability many fold !

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 27 Dec 2014 19:57

3T internal weapons bay seems rather large, probably even beats the F-35.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Dec 2014 20:33

Yup the F-35A/C max out at 2.8 Tons but then there is a question of volume and weight and the arsenal of weapons you wish to have for internal carriage. There really isn't a weapon that the USAF would have liked to have internal but could not. Then there is a question of trading off drag, size, weight with propulsion and overall metrics of the fighter. The payload they wished to have was of 2x2000 pound from the main heavy points, and self defense weapons from the remaining two. It would be interesting to see how the AMCA evolves and how the design matures but 3T seems rather large. The design tradeoff for the JSF was the fuel volume. They wanted 2.5 times the range of a clean F-16 from a F-35A with internal fuel and hence the balance between the 5700 pound internal capability and the nearly 18,500 pounds of internal fuel (A). This would be important for the AMCA as well. The Super Hornet carries between 13K and 14K pounds of fuel internally so if ADA/HAL wish to have a similar "class" engine (22-24K range) then it would be interesting to see what range-payload mix they come up with on internal fuel since mounting EFT's on a stealth jet is not really an option in non-permissive environments where stealth is useful in the first place. One tradeoff every stealth jet has to make is carry a lot of fuel. The F-22 does so as well, but trades range off for speed given the F-119's. The F-35 on the other hand was as mentioned earlier built around the requirement of having 2.5 times the range of a clean Viper and outranges all viper configuration except the one with the largest tanks (2) or CFT+Tanks.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6DyML-EPAKE/U ... points.bmp

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 28 Dec 2014 01:05

sankum wrote:A note on India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project

By Saurav Jha

Worth posting in full for the record. Emphasis mine.

The Chinese today are flying two fifth generation fighter prototypes, at least one of which will enter series production sometime in the next decade. It of course remains to be seen whether the Chinese J-20 design will ultimately be powered by a Chinese low bypass turbofan engine or not. India meanwhile is still haggling with Russia on work share and tech share issues before it inks the final development contract for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA baseline. Regardless, it has been clear for some time now that India will have to mount a serious fifth generation effort of its own in order to both free itself from dependency on any other country as well build its aerospace sector on the foundation created through the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program. For that purpose the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) that oversees the LCA program has now increased the pace of activity with respect to the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program. However for the AMCA to reach fruition in a timely manner, the government of the day would do well to invest more in creating deeper aerospace development infrastructure.

The LCA program has taken the time it has to mature precisely because there was a hiatus in domestic fighter aircraft development post the HAL HF-24 Marut that was India's first homegrown jet fighter. No timely follow on programme to the Marut meant that both human and capital resources had to be built up concurrently even as the LCA program progressed contributing to delays. Today however via the LCA program India has a National Flight Test Centre to carry out flight testing with mobile telemetry stations, system design & evaluation facility for model based evaluations, a virtual reality facility to study assembly, accessibility and other related aspects, a lightning test facility and an explosive atmosphere test facility. However all this is not nearly enough for India to scale up its aerospace sector and take it to the next level.

For one, India is woefully short of wind tunnel facilities at the moment. Internal ADA projections reveal that as opposed to an emerging requirement of 8000 load outs a year, India has the capability to service only 1500 load outs annually through existing facilities. This lack of capacity is one of the reasons why the AMCA has had to undergo wind tunnel testing at the Calspan Wind Tunnel in the United States of America, before its final aerodynamic layout was frozen. Also, the dimensions of the current wind tunnel facilities at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Bangalore, can accommodate only rather smallish models. Calspan's dimensions allowed larger models of the AMCA to be tested than what could be done at home it seems.

The AMCA is obviously larger than the LCA and is in the 'medium' category with a max take off weight (MTOW) of 25 tons. The fighter will have the usual roster of what is typically considered 'fifth generation' including obviously stealth, supercruising ability, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar, thrust vectoring for super manoeuvrability, networked data fusion etc. and will allow modular construction.

The state of technology in what goes into making a fifth generation fighter is unevenly developed in India at the moment. Take stealth for instance, while Indian designers certainly know how to build a stealthy airframe in terms of pure aerodynamic shaping, Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero), DRDO says that much work remains to be done in areas such as radar absorbent materials, conformal antennae and flush air data sensors etc. in order to achieve near all aspect stealth. In domains such as coatings that reduce exhaust exit temperatures, India has some experience having developed the same for the Advanced Light Helicopter program and more work is underway at IIT Mumbai.

Moreover, even as various aspects of stealth technology are being worked upon, the fact remains that the AMCA test vehicles will be powered by imported low bypass turbofan engines. According to Dr Tamilmani, an engine selection process is not just underway, but is actually being hastened. Six engine original equipment makers (OEMs) have been sounded out for what is essentially an upgraded & up-rated version of an existing engine that could provide 110 kilo newton (KN) of wet thrust. "The RFPs will be sent out by April 2015, and in another eight months we will firm up our choice of engine to power the AMCA," says Dr Tamilmani. "We however have to do a lot work on our own to develop thrust vectoring for the AMCA," he adds.

At the moment, the greatest hypothetical weight configuration of the AMCA design (with fuel and a certain weapons mix) has been calculated to be around 24.2 tons and ADA designers are confident that even with 105 KN engines, the AMCA would be able to meet design aerodynamic parameters. However given the experience with the LCA program, ADA this time really wants that 5 KN margin in order to be safe rather than sorry. It seems that the AMCA will also have an unusually large internal weapons bay that will have the capacity to accommodate around three tons worth of weapons. The AMCA will also feature six underwing pylons for externally carried weapons.

The total spend on the programme so far has been under Rs 100 crore. The project has been taken up on the basis of a preliminary staff qualitative requirement from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and is currently in the project definition phase. Dr Tamilmani believes that for around Rs 4000 crore it would be possible to build 3 or 4 flying prototypes, the first of which should take to the skies by 2020-21.

Follow Saurav Jha on Twitter @SJha1618.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 28 Dec 2014 01:25

My estimate of earlier internal weapon bay was of 4m by 1.8m capable of carrying 5 BVR AAM or 2 air to ground weapon plus 2 BVR AAM as in CGI video released of earlier version.

Now to carry 3T of internal weapon which is a pleasant surprise my estimate will be 4.3m by 2.15m so as to carry 6 BVR AAM or 4 air to ground weapon of 2 x 1000kg+ 2 x 500Kg =3000 Kg.

Cant say whether this comes at the cost of reduced internal fuel as earlier slide have shown 2 hrs endurance of AMCA as compared to 2.5 hrs endurance of FGFA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Dec 2014 02:07

Miniaturization should have an impact in a few years.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Dec 2014 04:25

It is a pity that we are fighting with each other. AVM Matheswaran has immense knowledge in the evaluation of twin-engined birds and IAF's expectations from the same. If he can't serve in IAF's team evaluating AMCA's design, he should have been hired into MoD's, HAL's or ADA's team for consultancy.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Dec 2014 06:12

We do not have closed circuit wind tunnels.- very expensive but can do hundreds of parameters at one time but extremely costly to make and run so for such purposes they would outsource for raw data for accelerated testing of some basic configs which is cheaper to outsource.Most of the testing otherwise especially which is confidential would be done in house.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Dec 2014 16:41

^^^ We Do !!!!

IIT Kanpur

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nwtf/templates/nw ... ochure.pdf

A 3m x 2.25m low speed closed circuit wind tunnel with state-of-the-art equipment and instrumentation, has been established at IIT Kanpur, as a national facility, to meet the national needs in the areas of aeronautical and non-aeronautical related R&D work.

IIT Madras

https://www.iitm.ac.in/amresearch

Under Fluid Mechanics > Facilities

Diffuser test facility
Longitudinal curved duct facility
Flow visualization set up
Wind tunnel ( closed circuit with open jet test section )
Open circuit wind tunnel ( 0.6m x 0.6m )
Computational facilities
Wind turbine testing facility
Jet tunnel

IIT Roorkee

http://www.ipublishing.co.in/ijcserarti ... SE4044.pdf

Present paper describes the wind tunnel study carried out on rigid models of rectangular shape high rise buildings. The models are tested in the closed circuit wind tunnel having a cross section of 1.3m (width) x0.85m (height), at Civil Engineering Department, Indian Institute of Technology Roorkee, Roorkee.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Dec 2014 17:44

Those are small wind tunnels - the ones needed are supposed to be bigger transonic ones which are not available in India. I believe the current requirements alone for these are phenomenal.
Prasanna

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Dec 2014 18:32

^^^^^^

True.

(IF they modeled the AMCA at) Calspan affords not just a larger wind tunnel (hosts larger models!! Doh) but the ability to test other aspects of a model. Quantum jump.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Dec 2014 18:45

I believe the one at Calspan can get around 500-600 parameters over one blow run ! This can reduce testing time considerably.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Dec 2014 18:59

The size seems to be the reason why we took AMCA to Calspan

A note on India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project

For one, India is woefully short of wind tunnel facilities at the moment. Internal ADA projections reveal that as opposed to an emerging requirement of 8000 load outs a year, India has the capability to service only 1500 load outs annually through existing facilities. This lack of capacity is one of the reasons why the AMCA has had to undergo wind tunnel testing at the Calspan Wind Tunnel in the United States of America, before its final aerodynamic layout was frozen. Also, the dimensions of the current wind tunnel facilities at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Bangalore, can accommodate only rather smallish models. Calspan's dimensions allowed larger models of the AMCA to be tested than what could be done at home it seems.

Though we are not lying dormant about this aspect

Four agencies propose indigenous aeronautical test facility

Four military and aerospace user agencies have set the ball rolling to jointly create a crucial and large aeronautical test facility that will support future aircraft and space projects.

The project — technically termed an aerodynamic characterisation facility built around a wind tunnel — will tell whether a newly planned plane’s design is accurate, if it can fly and be stable in the air. Indigenous projects for civil or military planes, satellite launch vehicles, missiles fitted on fighter planes and unmanned air vehicles need to repeatedly use such facilities. It is learnt that in mid-July, key officials of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), Indian Space Research Organisation, National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. met and formed a task force to pursue the project, according to more than one person involved in the initiative.

The aim is to have a facility with a large closed-circuit trisonic wind tunnel and modern computational unit, along with a 50-MW power plant.

The task force expects to spell out by end-December or early 2015 the size, features, the likely cost, place and skills available to build and operate the facility.

“A large, modern aerodynamic test facility with a wind tunnel is an important infrastructure required for aeronautical activity in the country. We would like to go ahead with it,” DRDO’s Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), K. Tamilmani told The Hindu . Also, NAL’s old and lone aero test facility is outdated.

Estimated cost

A new facility, could cost Rs. 3,000 to Rs. 4,000 crore. Hyderabad is a preferred location. Many home projects have used facilities in the U.S., Russia, France and Israel.

“An Indian facility can cut the development cycle by up to half and save crores of rupees spent on tests abroad. When you test strategically important projects abroad, you unwittingly reveal their data,” Dr. Tamilmani said.

The original proposal at NAL was to make a closed circuit wind tunnel .

Opt for a 'blowdown type' wind tunnel; even though the original proposal envisaged a continuous flow closed circuit tunnel. Following this decision, preliminary design studies and pilot scale experiments were started in a big way in 1958 itself at the small blowdown tunnel of the Indian Institute of Science under Prof S Dhawan.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Dec 2014 19:17

India *needs* a full blown testing facility - like Calspan. It should include all sorts of testing, not just air crafts or for military alone.

Considering that the middle class in India is so large, it should be treated as such. The Indian MC is a nation unto itself. Cater to it and one could have a sustainable solution.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 28 Dec 2014 19:25

We will invest Rs 31,000 crore of FGFA=T-50 for only 13% work share but we have not even alloted Rs 4000 crore for our 100% own AMCA. The Wind tunnel is till being "planned" and still NOT sanctioned. Great going! Setting of high altitude engine test facility has also not "started". The facility off course would have helped all our programmes like HTT-40, HJT-36, LCA, AMCA, UCAV, various UAVs, LUH, LCH, IMRH, NURAV etc but then why hurry!

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 28 Dec 2014 19:43

Problems is not why Hurry- the various forces in play all these years did not want it though requested.Complex geopolitical and monetary games. People wonder why timelines dilate - remember politicians like announcements and scientists are forced to make announcements.Also people on the top like extensions- ensures extensions around retirement. Two things that could really accelerate research is direct linking to the PMO avoiding bureaucrats and a definite retirement plan for top brass such that they can still contribute without the "retirement" specter looming on their heads as consultants while ensuring younger scientists can move up the ladder and attract talent.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Dec 2014 23:27

arshyam wrote:<SNIP>The total spend on the programme so far has been under Rs 100 crore. The project has been taken up on the basis of a preliminary staff qualitative requirement from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and is currently in the project definition phase. Dr Tamilmani believes that for around Rs 4000 crore it would be possible to build 3 or 4 flying prototypes, the first of which should take to the skies by 2020-21.

Follow Saurav Jha on Twitter @SJha1618.

[/quote]

First prototype will take to air in 2020-2021?

Why do people at his level have to shoot of their mouth when they know better? The LCA Mk-2, which is supposed to be iterative development of LCA Mk-1 is not expected to fly before 2018 (as per statement of this very gentleman), and a completely new a/c which is still under Project Definition Phase will have a PV flying in another 5-6 years time?

It is this repeated over-promise which leads to bad blood.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Dec 2014 23:38

^ +1000

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Dec 2014 23:42

No need to hyperventilate about some dates given, they are required to generate dates for presentation purpose and they do that assuming ideal conditions and mk.2 development has got nothing to do with AMCA. Different teams are working on the projects and if IAF is really "steering the program" (keep your bucket of salt handy) as some reports claim then a PV can definitely fly by 2021.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Dec 2014 01:06

Sagar G wrote:No need to hyperventilate about some dates given, they are required to generate dates for presentation purpose and they do that assuming ideal conditions and mk.2 development has got nothing to do with AMCA. Different teams are working on the projects and if IAF is really "steering the program" (keep your bucket of salt handy) as some reports claim then a PV can definitely fly by 2021.

First - You don't get to tell other poster(s) what they should do or not. So keep your advise to yourself.

Second - IAF being on-board has nothing to do with scientific challenges associated with such an ambitious program. Or, certain inherent bureaucratic issues. Let's take a small example - Has the engine been chosen for the a/c? I guess not. HAL will issue an RFP to vendors in 2015 as per Saurav Jha. How long due you think it will take for usual rigmarole of OEM selection, contract negotiation and final closure? Again, Mr. Tamilmani says, they will firm the choice in 8 months post release of RFP (April 15). Pretty neat timeline, no?

From 2016-2020 or 2021, that is in 4-5 years flat, the first prototype of a completely new a/c which is supposed to incorporate 5th generation technologies -some of which we are yet to develop-will take to skies? Compared to this, LCA Mk-2, which is supposed to be an iterative development, will also take 4-5 years to take to skies from date of inception (2014-2018 or 2019) of program?

BTW - the same gentleman gave this statement in the beginning of this year:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 987224.ece

The product design work of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft has been started by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the vehicle is expected to be ready in 2018, Dr Tamilmani, Director General (Aeronautical Systems) DRDO, Bangalore has said.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the three-day international meet on ‘Product Life Cycle, Modelling, Simulation and Synthesis (PLMSS) at VIT university on Monday,’ he said the aircraft would be equipped with twin engines with super cruise power and for the first time it would be using the stealth technology to ‘hide’ from radar surveillance.

The work on the design of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that began nearly 20 years back had culminated in developing vehicles using indigenous technology and the first batch of 40 such aircraft would be ready for defence utilization by the year 2017. The Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) would manufacture four vehicles this year, eight by next year and sixteen each in the following two years, Tamilmani added. With the advent of communication and automation technology, system engineering and other tools, the message to the world community is: ‘India can build new-state-of-art aerospace technology products and is ready for competition.’ Tamilmani said each of the LCA would be built at an estimated cost of `200 crore and these aircraft would be subjected to around 14,000 failure simulation conditions, to test the efficacy of the technology before they were deployed for the army. The ground work on designing the aircraft was started in the year 1993 and the prototype would be ready in the next five years. “We had to build the technology all by ourselves from scratch as no agency was willing to share the technology. Even though we have taken a little more time to develop the technology, we have now laid a strong foundation in this field,” he noted.<SNIP>

We all know where we stand on the LCA production timeline for first 20 a/c.

So, pardon me if I 'hyperventilate' when I find esteemed scientists suffering from 'foot-in-mouth' disease and I take any timeline promise by them with 'bucket load of salt'!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Dec 2014 01:14

Sagar G wrote:No need to hyperventilate about some dates given, they are required to generate dates for presentation purpose and they do that assuming ideal conditions and mk.2 development has got nothing to do with AMCA. Different teams are working on the projects and if IAF is really "steering the program" (keep your bucket of salt handy) as some reports claim then a PV can definitely fly by 2021.

Yes of course, and elephants can fly ,.especially pink ones

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Dec 2014 03:48

RV, strong points there. A lot of stars have to align for the first prototype to fly by 2021. But it can be done, like the J-31/PAKFA. It has to be taken up with much greater urgency than what it has been so far. May be the Modi sarkar can help. I hope ADA has made up its mind on the engine (b/w EJ200 and F414) and is only putting out an RFP because it has to (yes, they have to put out tenders for even copier machines and destop computers). Also the first prototype will certainly not be the production prototype. Like the PAK-FA, the airframe should be more or less ready, refinements, components and coatings can come later.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Dec 2014 04:07

They had estimated to get it out in 2018-19 time frame. The slippage to 2020-21 is a not because of planning associated with the AMCA, but rather the LCA - recall they had diverted the AMCA resources to the LCA effort for a while - though 2 years may seem excessive.

However, the major challenge remains with the TVC engine.

I do not see 2020-21 as an issue.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Dec 2014 04:10

Lockheed's HAVE Blue flew just over a year after Ben Rich convinced his board of the 5-8 million internal funding on top of the USAF award and began working on the prototype. ATF prototype contract awards led to a flying prototype (in fact 4) within 50 months from contract award to the two down-selected teams. PAV1 flew around 48 months from contract award. The JSF prototypes flew 48 months after contract awards. All of these programs had a heck of a lot of challenges that needed to be solved. No one even knew how to keep the Hopeless Diamond airborne in 1976, ATF had a host of challenges right from the prototype engines (Variable Cycle engines in the early 90's) to getting stealthy enough and still meeting the KPP's on speed and maneuverability. I purposely left out the SR-71, because it would take nearly 500 words to write down the challenges that required solving between contract award and first A12 flight.

Ultimately it dependents at how proficient the design house is at doing this sort of task fast. It can definitely be done in a short time-span provided you have the right people (quality over quantity) with access to technology and armed with a lot of research data from in-house design studies that will guide their design process. At the end of the day, its about getting together and delivering a prototype. Its a positive thing for me that they have an aggressive timeline to do this, as the worst thing you can do is go into a prototype that takes 10 years to deliver (prototype)

https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2578-a-l ... ly-johnson

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Dec 2014 10:05

A nube question to all those debating on this thread. Is it possible to scale up the Radar and the air combat systems planned to be executed for the LCA-Mk2, into the AMCA ?

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 29 Dec 2014 13:13

@Saurav Jha:

Today the avionics ecosystem for AMCA is already in place. Even work on weapon release from an internal bay has progressed well.

Basic airframe is also set. It is mostly in thrust vectoring and RAM that much work remains to be done.

Put your money where your mouth is, get good talent from wherever on board for specific programs and optimize expectations.
AND over the years because of the nature of funding more than one lab has achieved systems level capability Ina domain.
E.g today RCI which was essentially a missile avionics lab is also a lead lab for all up missile systems in tandem with DRDL and ASL.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Dec 2014 13:55

I expect AMCA empty weight to be 11T, internal fuel to be 6.5T to give comparable range of Pak fa and F35.

Clean stealthy air to air mission weight of 19T with 6 BVR AAM and 2 CCM.

Clean stealthy air to ground mission weight of 21T with 3T internal payload.

As MTOW has increased to 24.2T dimensions given by earlier slide of 17.5m by 10.5m should increase.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Dec 2014 18:25

I would like to:

1) See what the IAF had a s a wish list (to see what is the IAF's definition of a "5th Gen" air craft),
2) Would like to hear about "data" and "networks" - actual capabilities - (general connectivity, helmet, fusion, etc), and
3) More out of curiosity, whatever happened to the FbL

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2014 22:22

rohitvats wrote:First - You don't get to tell other poster(s) what they should do or not. So keep your advise to yourself.

Pretty rich coming from your mouth, threads after threads of dishing out gratuitous advice unasked for yet the galls to ask others to refrain from doing the same especially in a public forum where passing out unasked advices is part of debate. The irony gods will have a tough night tonight sleeping.

rohitvats wrote:Second - IAF being on-board has nothing to do with scientific challenges associated with such an ambitious program. Or, certain inherent bureaucratic issues.

You don't say Mr. Bane !!!

rohitvats wrote: Let's take a small example - Has the engine been chosen for the a/c? I guess not. HAL will issue an RFP to vendors in 2015 as per Saurav Jha. How long due you think it will take for usual rigmarole of OEM selection, contract negotiation and final closure? Again, Mr. Tamilmani says, they will firm the choice in 8 months post release of RFP (April 15). Pretty neat timeline, no?

Instead of trying to play smartypants if you had cared to read my post then you would have known why date's are given out from time to time but strategic upper hand strikes again. For your ease,

Sagar G wrote:No need to hyperventilate about some dates given, they are required to generate dates for presentation purpose and they do that assuming ideal conditions and mk.2 development has got nothing to do with AMCA. Different teams are working on the projects and if IAF is really "steering the program" (keep your bucket of salt handy) as some reports claim then a PV can definitely fly by 2021.

What do you think happens during umpteen chai biscuit sessions hainji ??? The scientists are required to present a programme map containing milestones which they are targeting around certain "dates" till the finish of the programme on the expected "date". So as you can see their is no escaping from the "dates", whether you or IAF like it or not matters zilch. Preparing a roadmap of the programme is a SOP before any programme is taken up.

If you remember during the engine selection for Mk.2 even before the L1 was selected they had done studies with both the contenders and were ready to go ahead no matter who won so it will be only logical to assume that they have done the same in case of AMCA and because they have to follow procedures they are issuing the tender.

What makes you think that engine is the only necessary component in an aircraft and the rest doesn't matter ??? Without selecting an engine from the market you think that the rest of the technologies that will go into it isn't being researched into ???

rohitvats wrote:From 2016-2020 or 2021, that is in 4-5 years flat, the first prototype of a completely new a/c which is supposed to incorporate 5th generation technologies -some of which we are yet to develop-will take to skies? Compared to this, LCA Mk-2, which is supposed to be an iterative development, will also take 4-5 years to take to skies from date of inception (2014-2018 or 2019) of program?

First regarding the "iterative development" part

The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'

The Mk-II will have some 25-30 percent commonality in parts with the MK-I and these parts (i.e not requiring any modification) are already in production. For the MK-I parts that have to be modified, thousands of new drawings are being worked upon jointly by DRDO-HAL and the private sector. According to Dr Tamil Mani 'The final Mk-II drawings will be completed by December 2015.'

So 70% to 75% new parts for which production drawings need to be generated. Given the meh attitude that you are showing for the "iterative development" I don't think you have any knowledge about designing or what a pain in the arse generating production standard drawings is. Also you have glossed over the fact that Mk.2 will be targeted from first airframe for production standard and hence committed a blunder by equating it's timeline to a prototype of AMCA which will undergo thousands of changes before it hits production in 2030. Since when has it become necessary for prototypes of under development programs to be upto final configuration from day 1 ??? The initial prototypes will be used to study the airframe and progressively over the decade 5th gen technologies will be added to it. A simple question, was the LCA TD meant to be == SP Mk.1 ???

Now coming to 5th gen technologies, do you want a running commentary from ADA regarding the technologies they are developing for their 5th gen aircraft ??? If you were mindful enough then enough data is in public regarding the technologies that are currently being developed. Posting excerpts, concentrate on the "dates"

India's Medium Combat Aircraft Friday, January 08, 2010

While configuration fructifies, the following work has begun on the MCA in full earnest: DARE, Bangalore has appointed a special team to begin identifying avionics and cockpit packages for the first prototype vehicle, and will supply this in published form to the ADA by July 2010. This will include cockpit electronics, cockpit configuration, man-machine interface, mission console systems and computers/software with a focus on data fusion and modular architecture. The LRDE will, in about the same time frame, provide a separate project proposal for an all new radar, to be re-designated for the MCA, as a derivative of the MMR currently being completed with technology from Israel's ELTA. LRDE will independently look in the market for a partner for active array technology, though it communicated to ADA in June 2009 that it had sufficient R&D available to build a reliable AESA prototype with assistance from Bharat Electronics Ltd and two private firms based in Hyderabad.

There is a collossal amount of work going on as far as materials is concerned for the MCA/NGFA. With the IAF unmoving in its demand for an aircraft that has stealth characteristics built into it from the drawing board forward, the DRDO has powered teams within its materials laboratories in Pune and Hyderabad to come up with new composities, low observable materials fabrication techniques, and of course, radar-absorbent control surface aggregates, airframe materials and paints. This is, of course, completely separate from design characteristics, including internal weapons, fresh leading edge innovations and a sustainable stealth maintenance footprint.

The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) Saturday, June 26, 2010

As part of the multidisciplinary design optimization (MDO) currently on for the AMCA -- a wind tunnel model of which was first publicly displayed at AeroIndia 2009 -- that design-based stealth features will include further optimized airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature. RAMs, RAPs, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy and precision manufacturing will all be part of the effort to make the AMCA India's first stealth airplane.

EXCLUSIVE: Official Wishlist of Evolutionary Technologies for India's 5thGen AMCA Tuesday, November 16, 2010

The AMCA team has already asked private industry in the country to explore the feasibility of creating primary panoramic displays and other avionics displays that would befit a fifth generation cockpit environment. But the cockpit is just one of an ambitious official technology wishlist for the AMCA.

Stealth Air-intake Fabrication For AMCA

CVRDE to develop gearboxes for advanced medium combat aircraft CHENNAI, December 9, 2010

Airframe

Multiple models are all over the net and as pointed before were displayed in 2009 AI as well so it is only rational to think they have been working on it for quite some time before they displayed such "model". Also a few pages earlier in this very thread

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1732413

Stealth Skin

To add some info to what has been posted above by Ankar (P.B.U.H.)

Conference (Work done at IISc)

A Novel Embedded Passives Resistor Spacecloth for Radar Absorbing Materials
Chandrika Sudhendra, Atanu Mohanty and A. C. R. Pillai
in International Radar Symposium India 2007 (IRSI-07), 10-13 December, 2007, Bangalore, India, pp. 117-119.

A Novel Chip Resistor Spacecloth for Radar Absorbing Materials
Chandrika Sudhendra, A. Mohanty and K. A. Jacob
in IEEE International Symposium on Microwaves 2006 (ISM-06), 15-17 December, 2006, Bangalore, India, pp. 185-192.

Fly by Light (Don't forget to look at the "date")

Manoharan, LC (1985) Development of a fiberoptic data bus for fly-by-light application on aircraft. Technical Report. National Aeronautical Laboratory, Bangalore, India.

Manoharan, LC and Muthuvel, S (1987) An intelligent fiberoptic data bus for fly-by-light applications. Technical Report. National Aeronautical Laboratory, Bangalore, India.

But we must assume that no work has been done till date so that we can rant from time to time no ??

Sensor Fusion

Being developed for LCA Mk.2 hence logical that this will feed directly into the AMCA programme hence it becomes "iterative development" rather than being done for the first time.

EW Suite

Again the same is going to be in Mk.2 and hence would be "iterative development" rather than being high risk first time sort of thing.

IRST

Airborne Infrared Search and Track Systems DEF SCI J, VOL. 57, NO. 5, SEPTEMBER 2007

Some of the Indian aircraft have integrated
IRST systems of the first generation. These operate
in not so wide FOV (compared to the present
generation IRSTs) and searchitrack single targets.
Instruments Research and Development
Establishment (IRDE), Dehra Dun, has launched
a programme to indigenously develop IRST system
for deployment on Indian aircraft. This system is
intended to give detection ranges up to 160 km
under various operating conditions. The system
will have the capability of track while scan feature
and will be able to track multiple targets simultancously.

So you want me to overlook all these indications that we are going into this program prepared and confident and instead add voice of support to your misplaced, unwarranted rant ??? Tough luck Mr. Bane, tough luck !!!

rohitvats wrote:BTW - the same gentleman gave this statement in the beginning of this year:

Between you need to update yourself instead of googling for support to your rant, from this very forum (again please don't forget to look at the "date" of the post)

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... C#p1624159

AMCA -
We are in the initial stages of project definition of AMCA. Any program of this nature requires 10 years.
We are going to see the AMCA around 2020.
Concept study on AMCA is nearing completion. The project definition phase will be started shortly.
[use of kaveri in AMCa]may not be possible. Use of kaveri for AMCA as the thrust requiremnts are different. But kaveri has potential for other programs in India
AMCA being the higher weight category will have more weapon load carrying than Tejas. Details will be worked out along with the user.
We are in the process of identifying the suitable engine

Since April timeline hasn't changed and hopefully won't much either so I still optimistically expect a prototype of AMCA to take to air in the 2020-21 timeframe given all goes well in between.

rohitvats wrote:We all know where we stand on the LCA production timeline for first 20 a/c.

We all know what a bloody nose China gave us in 1962 but we still love our Armed forces and trust them to protect us.

No need to intermix the timeline of two different programs to support your rant, we had almost nothing when we went for LCA but we have a lot when we will go for AMCA hence Captain Optimism can fly high.

rohitvats wrote:So, pardon me if I 'hyperventilate' when I find esteemed scientists suffering from 'foot-in-mouth' disease and I take any timeline promise by them with 'bucket load of salt'!

Given you ignorance about AMCA about the things which are already being done to achieve success for the same I pardon you for "hyperventilating" and pray that the "bucket load of salt" that you will take each time "dates" are given is iodised.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2014 22:25

Cain Marko wrote:Yes of course, and elephants can fly ,.especially pink ones

Heh, I guess you are from the same august company which wrote a "crash and burn" letter to Mr. George Fernandez unfortunately for them the only thing that "crashed and burned" was their bloated ego