AMCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jan 2015 21:32

~~was this linked here earlier?~~ OK.. http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/01/ ... h-gen.html

can someone post all side photos of this model? top, bottom, side front, rear?

This photograph from January 17, shows Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar scoping out what appears to be a new scale model of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), its fifth generation strike jet concept. Putting aside how this photograph tragically chops off the AMCA's nose, it appears that the design hasn't significantly changed since the concept's last 'outing' two years ago. The four-poster tail and X-15-like low aspect trapezoidal planform appear untouched from the last time anyone got a chance to see the concept design.

Things started with a compound trapezoidal configuration first revealed six years ago. Then came a pure trapezoidal with Hornet-like leading edge extensions in 2012. A little tinkering, and a year later the AMCA's designers appear to have arrived at a final shape, with its almost diamond-like trapezoidal wing config.

After years of wind tunnel models, design tinkering and fine-tuning of stealth characteristics, this year is truly (and hopefully) the word go. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) will, by August this year if everything goes to plan, look to obtain official project sanction from the MoD and funding to the tune of $800 million for the preliminary engineering & development phase.

It's well known that the AMCA's tech dem vehicles will be powered by turbofans from abroad, not a modified/uprated version of the Indian GTX-35VS Kaveri, though successor programmes by the DRDO's engine research house GTRE in Bengaluru are aimed in part at powering post-prototype airframes of the AMCA in the 2020s.

I hear Parrikar, an engineer and technocrat himself, was brusque on Jan 17 when he met with programme chiefs at ADA in Bengaluru, where that photo above was taken. Told about import content on the LCA Tejas (hovering around the 60% mark), the minister said anything close to that figure would be unacceptable on the AMCA. He laid it out that the government was willing to pay special attention to the AMCA if it could be a worthy and continuous mascot for the Prime Minister's 'Make in India' ideal -- a sort of touchstone for local development, testing and manufacturing prowess.

The folks at ADA and other agencies may have been shaken up by the minister's terse manner, but the message is an important one. From where the programme stands, it may seem impossible for it to gallop along with what the government, for now informally, wants from it. But if that's the kick in the aft section that a crucial aerospace programme of strategic importance needs, then bring it on.

kick in the aft section for the scientists? I think more on the GTRE folks.. not really in that manner, but heck they need to wake up!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Jan 2015 23:51

Based on the recent tweet, that the AMCA model took a bath in a holy wind tunnel, I suspect this model is not representative. Especially the tail end. I would expect two noticeable changes: exhaust and the vert stab. Give it a year+.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 Jan 2015 04:40

NRao wrote:Based on the recent tweet, that the AMCA model took a bath in a holy wind tunnel, I suspect this model is not representative. Especially the tail end. I would expect two noticeable changes: exhaust and the vert stab. Give it a year+.

X-Wing ?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Feb 2015 20:45

X-Posted from the Indian Military Aviation thread:

Karan M wrote:wooohoo AMCA fins got redesigned

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AFEI_iZvHhw/V ... 0/AMCA.jpg

non stealth day 2 variant
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--j2kibQZBf4/V ... CA%2B2.jpg

seems like an ok design visually, edge shaping etc.

curved cockpit edge will likely be refined further.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2015 00:42

darn sad that we had to take this model to the Khan and got it tested. tamilmani saar also admits state of affairs when he says its bad as in we reveal all our data but dont even have sufficient windtunnel capacity in the country. SDRE zindabad, MMS zindabad. hope economy recovers so Modi et al can fund such stuff.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Feb 2015 02:42

Masa is just waiting for us to commit a bit more and send more stuff to their labs before they impose sanctions and impound years of work.

I wouldn't mind investing in a new wind tunnel in India if there's business to be had. Crowd funding, anyone?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Feb 2015 06:04

The prototypes of AMCA will fly with 90 KN engine, the final engine will be 110 KN class. The engine would be developed in India with foreign assistance.
http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2015/02/ada- ... plans.html

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Feb 2015 07:00

^^

“We have asked for their proposals [and will go ahead with] whoever has a better offer, time frame and cost," he said. The goal is to integrate the new engine into the aircraft by 2020-21.

Thats less than 5 years for development and testing to when it should fly assuming they firm something up in the next 12 months or so. It would have to be based on existing engine families and they would have to look at relatively low hanging fruit to get the performance since there isn't a whole lot of time there to develop something and then extensively test and certify it before it could fly by 2020-21.

As far as GE is concerned they have had plans to boost the thrust to 120KN (26+K lb) but they obviously need a customer or customers to fund this as I doubt that the USN would come good on their promise to fund some of this around FY2017.

http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... hanced.pdf

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Feb 2015 07:05

I do hope it is not some LCA rerun. Joint development with Khan??? I am not sure. Not with what has happend earlier. Other hand Russia also do not inspire confidence.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Feb 2015 07:15

Yagnasri wrote:I do hope it is not some LCA rerun. Joint development with Khan??? I am not sure. Not with what has happend earlier. Other hand Russia also do not inspire confidence.

There is no reason for the USN to seek that much of a thrust increase especially at the time it is ending its own procurement of the Super-Hornet and Growler. They would seek other improvements, particularly in efficiency and M&S but i doubt there is money to jointly fund a 15-20% thrust increase over the existing levels. Such a deal would have to be struck with GE or with any other nation looking at such an engine (S. Korea, Sweden, Brazil etc). The retrofit market is quite large (Super Hornet's, Gripens, LCA's and future competitions) so a private partnership may be best course if GE ends up getting the nod. At a technical level its a fairly low risk development (EPE/EDE) effort but there has to be a stream of funding and given the fact that the GEW III is taking place right now, GE is unlikely to invest heavily to develop these engines and then seek customers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Feb 2015 07:36

Engines notoriously take eons to become reliable components in major systems.

5 year seems rather ambitious. Even with outside help.

Keys: A good flexible plan and funds.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Feb 2015 20:59

So they will start with GE-414s and then move onto a desi one. LCA reddux.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2015 21:05

hope not!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Feb 2015 21:48

Not concerned about what they start with, but what they end with.

As much as I love to take risks, this is one risk that needs absolute control over - beyond being a calculated risk. The head of the engine-nail has just got a lot more smaller.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2015 22:51

http://www.oneindia.com/india/oneindia- ... 53749.html

OneIndia Exclusive: India’s stealth fighter dream moves towards reality
Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M
Updated: Saturday, February 14, 2015, 10:10 [IST]

Bengaluru, Feb 14: India's valiant attempt in developing a gen-next stealth fighter seems to be gathering some momentum with the scientists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claiming that the Project Definition Phase (PDP) will be over within a year.

While some of the stealth features remain as a ‘beyond-visual-technology' for India, even as this report is being put together, the DRDO officials are convinced that embedding global players and increasing the private participation could well be the breakthrough in realizing their dreams. Super-cruise, stealth and thrust vectoring are critical features DRDO would need to thrash out in the process.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

While Aero India is normally seen as a ‘carnival of claims,' the DRDO top brass have put up a confident argument that the lessons learnt from developing a four-and-a-half-generation fighter (Tejas) will act as a their guiding force while entering into the hitherto unknown 5th generation terrain.

AMCA Directorate takes confident shape

The AMCA Directorate at Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is being headed by Dr A K Ghosh. As the Project Director, he has stayed away from the media glare all these years. Access to this Directorate is absolutely restricted and any information sought on AMCA travels many channels of approvals before flying out of the ADA HQ. Even not many details are officially known about the size of the AMCA team.

However, military sources confirm to OneIndia that a core team of 200 designers, with an additional outsourced manpower of 2000 more, is likely to work for the project during the Detailed Design Phase. Once the key players in the project get picked up, 500 more scientists will be added to the tally, working at various partner site(s).

Feasibility projects have been completed

The AMCA dream has crossed the first milestone with all feasibility projects getting completed. Confirmatory tests like Low Speed Wind Tunnel test, High Speed Wind Tunnel Test and RCS Test have been carried out. "The AMCA configuration has been frozen," says Dr K Tamilmani, Director General (Aero), DRDO.

Currently, systems and inboards finalization activities are being carried out towards system definition. Simultaneously, many advance technology projects -- mostly critical in nature -- are being pursued by the team.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

Sources say that AMCA will have to cross five key phases before becoming a reality. They include: PDP, Detail Design Phase (DDP), Development Phase, Flight Test and Certification Test. "We are targeting the first flight towards the end of 2020," claims Dr Tamilmani.

The DRDO hopes to move the all-important ‘Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) Paper on AMCA' seeking more funds next year. Currently the programme is being initiated with the seed money of Rs 100 crore. In the PDP, 18 systems need to be identified. Metal cutting is expected to take place after DDP and Critical Design Review (CDR).

Nine prototypes planned

ADA Director P S Subramnaiam confirms to OneIndia that a total of nine prototypes would roll out of the AMCA hangar, starting 2020. "Extensive private participation is envisaged throughout the project, right from DDP to production," says Subramaniam. He says that a large number of DRDO and CSIR labs, IITs, IISc and private industries are already involved in the AMCA project.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

Dr Ghosh refuses to divulge many details, but says that a static model to be displayed at Aero India 2015 would roughly give an idea of the possible AMCA look. "We also have a video showing the likely features and capabilities of AMCA," he adds.

Talks on the project during Aero India

With India riding on an absolute dismal record in developing power plants for planes, the DRDO is hoping to make some moves and find a solution during Aero India. "We are looking at both the US and Russia who have immense expertise in engine and stealth technology.

Considering the high-end, critical technologies involved in a stealth programme, a government-to-government project would be the best for the AMCA engine. Make in India is our flag-bearer theme for projects now and hence AMCA will strictly travel through the same philosophy," says Dr Tamilmani.

Stealth fighter dream takes shape

AMCA to be loaded with gen-next features

* Serpentine air intake
* Internal weapon release at high speed
* Integrated flight propulsion controls
* Shared apertures
* Gen-next display systems with touch panels
* Advanced sensors like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and IRST (Infra Red Search and Track)
* MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)
* Stealth materials
* Advanced aluminum and titanium alloys
* Supercruise technology
* Advanced avionics based on IMA (Integrated Modular Architecture)
* Pilot associate to reduce pilot workload

Crucial capabilities

* SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense)
* DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defense)
* Precision strike

Nice pic
http://www.oneindia.com/img/2015/02/14- ... amca-2.jpg

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Feb 2015 23:27

JTull wrote:So they will start with GE-414s and then move onto a desi one. LCA reddux.

The link posted earlier says that they are going to decide between GE and Klimov and the effort would involve making the thing in India. I am not sure what Klimov has in mind in terms of time-lines and capability with the R33 family but GE has had a solid enhancement path that they have spent quite a lot of internal money de-risking over the years. Depending upon the size of the LCA MKII fleet F414 Enhanced features could also be added to that product line as it evolves over time.

The long term goal should include an indigenous engine. Having said that a 25+ K pound engine with performance demands (super cruise) would take time and unless the IAF wants to wait until an engine is ready, going for a lower risk option seems the best possible path. Engine maturity is an absolute pre-requisite to a successful fighter project. Uncertainty in that end could cost dearly from a program performance point of view. If there is one lesson learnt from the last two GEW's in the US, it is that the designers and those that place a value on capability tend to favor certainty in propulsion over far reaching goals. GE found this the hard way with the YF-120.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2015 00:02

Don't know what inside info ADA has but they should have sounded out EJ, P&W, Salyut/UMPO as well.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Feb 2015 00:14

Karan M wrote:Don't know what inside info ADA has but they should have sounded out EJ, P&W, Salyut/UMPO as well.

I was surprised why EJ was not chosen. Or perhaps they are meeting with 2 now and may meet with more later. Another explanation could be that they are working with these 2 OEM' for the prelim propulsion needs and may float a larger more thorough RFP for co-design and production in India for an eventual engine. One advantage that GE has is obviously the commonality with the LCA family and the fact that its market (F414) is diverse and non-dependent on a single product line for growth. P&W could also be asked but I doubt they'd be very competitive given the sort of engine investments they have been making of late (higher thrust class) and I doubt that this class would find a lot of IRAD money form them..

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Feb 2015 00:16

The non stealthy version external payload can be calculated @ 2*1200 litre ext.tanks (1T each)+2*1000kg JDAMs+ 2pods (2*200kg=400kg)+2*100Kg CCM+400 Kg for 8pylons=5000Kg.

MTOW is reported to be 24.2T in S Jha blog and maximum internal payload at 3T.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2015 01:23

brar_w wrote:
Karan M wrote:Don't know what inside info ADA has but they should have sounded out EJ, P&W, Salyut/UMPO as well.
I was surprised why EJ was not chosen. Or perhaps they are meeting with 2 now and may meet with more later. Another explanation could be that they are working with these 2 OEM' for the prelim propulsion needs and may float a larger more thorough RFP for co-design and production in India for an eventual engine. One advantage that GE has is obviously the commonality with the LCA family and the fact that its market (F414) is diverse and non-dependent on a single product line for growth. P&W could also be asked but I doubt they'd be very competitive given the sort of engine investments they have been making of late (higher thrust class) and I doubt that this class would find a lot of IRAD money form them..

I hope they don't get locked in with GE and then go around complaining if the US-India relationship develops political issues.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Feb 2015 02:13

But if the ultimate goal is to develop something in house, then it is just a stepping stone until a new next generation engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2015 02:35

developing stuff inhouse requires a lot of funds and political commitment. in india, these have been available only in fits and spurts. which means delays get baked into the program & result in acquisitions from abroad as replacement.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Feb 2015 07:39

The proposed funding for AMCA is as limited and meagre as was for LCA. We have learnt nothing. The R&D budget for AMCA should be at least USD 15 Billion dollars rather than proposed 1 Billion dollars.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Feb 2015 16:41

Thanks for the message, Gyan ji. Such clarity is good for Make in India campaign too.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 Feb 2015 21:25

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Feb 2015 12:34

is this AMCA model pic from AI-'15 ??

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 13:46

nice!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 18 Feb 2015 13:53

They 'fixed' the tail

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2015 13:57

there is absolutely no option but to go with GE414 enhancement because we already understand this engine instead of bringing in yet one more player at the table in klimov or ej. GE has better capabilities and with the F-18s slated to be in service until around 2040 in the hundreds, the 414 will see further improvements from its more futuristic programs.

that list of features in the AMCA will stretch our in-house capability in every sphere nearly to breaking point to meet function & timeline, wherever it is possible to reduce risk by using proven kit like GE414 we definitely must. and we are already nearly 5-10 yrs behind China in this who have protos flying for years now and being refined.

$1 billion might get us a couple of protos flying with a subset of kit, but obviously more funds will be needed to complete things.

its also vital to keep a couple of Tejas and Jaguars or a EMB145 as test plane to certify and fix all the 100s of new subsystems in parallel with the flight test efforts.

and no more boo boos like missing the gun or IFR until after IOC.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2015 14:01

Also, keep in mind that we are supposed to work on a Jet engine *research* project with the Americans .. i.e GE.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2015 14:06

ge414 is listed on wiki as 98kN, not 90Kn they talk of in the article as off-the-shelf for protos.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 15:53

Suraj wrote:They 'fixed' the tail

and good thing too.. older one looked horrible.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2015 20:55

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3m3 minutes ago Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh

The Indian Air force is being very realistic about AMCA aerodynamic performance requirements.

Hopefully similar understanding will soon be displayed wrt LCA being *adequate* replacement for Mig21's.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Feb 2015 21:46

pankajs wrote:
Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3m3 minutes ago Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh

The Indian Air force is being very realistic about AMCA aerodynamic performance requirements.
Hopefully similar understanding will soon be displayed wrt LCA being *adequate* replacement for Mig21's.

Who got to them? DefMin?

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Feb 2015 22:13

Karan M wrote:
Suraj wrote:They 'fixed' the tail
and good thing too.. older one looked horrible.

Yeah we had a couple of pages of discussion here on just the tail .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 22:51

if all else fails we can always discuss scooter helmets.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Feb 2015 22:54

Karan M wrote:if all else fails we can always discuss scooter helmets.

I'm sure helmets and gear will all be upgraded. Camo also needs an upgrade.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Feb 2015 23:15

Everything is great except the engine. We want Kaveri 110kT wala funded. Let it beg, steal or borrow GE capabilities.. but just get that in. It is also important to port K9/10 into LCA Mk1 and use them to get more data.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 18 Feb 2015 23:19

negi wrote:
Karan M wrote:
and good thing too.. older one looked horrible.
Yeah we had a couple of pages of discussion here on just the tail .

Could you please point me to it, haven't been able to locate it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Feb 2015 09:20

It doesnt matter what engines fly the prototype of few dozen production model be it GE, Klimov or Snecma but the goal should be to get to "Designed and Made In India" ASAP , with the first Mark-1 model powering our engine and we owing 100 % IP of that Engine.

Else we dont want to repeat LCA Saga when it comes to extenal pressure or our own mis-handling with Kaveri.