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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 19:25 
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Rahul M wrote:
the troll wen was posting with the email ID wen@imperial.ac.uk which is the domain address of imperial college london.
assuming that's actually his email ID and not a stolen one, it just goes on to show that education is no hindrance to behaving like a moron.


If this is his own email id then we should report him to Scotland Yard immediately , IMO. He is exactly the kind of guy who will indulge in industrial espionage.Infact sometime back he was justifying industrial espionage on this forum.The evidence is there on previous pages.Once he is reported there is a fair chance that Scotland yard will monitor him in some way.

Guys what's your opinion regarding reporting him?Should I go ahead and send an email to Scotland Yard or any other UK agency which looks into such matters?


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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 19:46 
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Not very good spies who go around public forums and advocate industrial espionage - right?


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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 19:51 
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guys, this is still the AMCA thread. kindly keep it that way.


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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 20:15 
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Pardon me mods for relocating my original post. The subsequent discussion on troll ruined the flow we were about to get into regarding AMCA. Apologies.
--------------

SaiK wrote:
There are others ways [why not peripheral h2o ejections to reduce IR? any reduction in thrust?].
[size=50]


If there is h2o injection into the exhaust jet, it should actually increase the thrust NOT reduce,as per my guess. Water when converted to steam occupies 550 times the volume as a droplet. This would lead to violent expansion that should only increase the thrust besides cooling the jet.

But this positive effect on thrust should only apply for mixing h2o upto a certain proportion only. Increasing its content too much might reduce thrust due to overcooling(and contraction) of expanded gases in the jet. Probably for the amount of h2o that we could carry on a jet we don't reach that stage OR it happens much after the exhaust is out of the jet.

The h2o would have to be De-ionized type so as to not choke the pores of the spray with dissolved salts that normal water contains.

JMT


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PostPosted: 11 Feb 2011 21:41 
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^it is a pleasure to read that idea actually is a positive thought. nice.

going FDAEC, we should be able to control the injection only at the time needed against MAWS signal., while the on board h20 generator + ion filter could be generating it.

again, if we can defeat by IR jammer or a retractable pod that jams IR/emits radiations, to act as decoy say 20 feet away could be a simpler solution.

both options would work wonders in self protection arena.


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2011 12:57 
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The tapering that indranil was mentioning is evident in this side view of AMCA model.

Image


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2011 14:43 
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the AMCA shows full planform alignment.

expect serrated edges for alignment as well.

that artist's impression is obviously not accurate.


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2011 18:49 
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So, pakfa fgfa has the OLS right in front. Would AMCA house the FLIR/IRST inside the canopy?


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2011 21:46 
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I dunno if HAL has decided where to place the OLS.
Perhaps BRF can come up with some ideas that they might find worthy enough.


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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2011 21:48 
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The F-22 raptor had a concept of having the OLS in front of the cockpit glass, but it was blended into the shape of the cockpit bulge, and perfectly streamlined, and not a ball jutting out.

The US eventually decided to not include this in the final product.

I think that concept needs to be looked into since that seems logical.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 06:14 
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Gagan wrote:
The F-22 raptor had a concept of having the OLS in front of the cockpit glass, but it was blended into the shape of the cockpit bulge, and perfectly streamlined, and not a ball jutting out.

The US eventually decided to not include this in the final product.

I think that concept needs to be looked into since that seems logical.


F/A-18 International Roadmap Platform
Image

Rafale Front-Sector Optronics (FSO)
Image

F-35 EO DAS
Image


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 07:10 
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ideally I think one needs two eqpt - the top one for a2a and bottom one for a2g and supplementary lookdown a2a like covering the rear side if possible using a rotating assembly. but nobody has it.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 07:14 
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Image

From this angle, are the intakes and nose/cockpit looks more like PAK-FA or F-22? It seems there are testing various permutation and combination for the AMCA. Rear end fuselage and vertical stabilizesr very much look like F-18.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 07:36 
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can anyone explain how this edge alignment thing helps to reduce RCS ? does it restrict the number of angles from which a emitting radar will get a +ve reflection from the plane vs a tangle of unaligned edges?


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 07:49 
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Quote:
Planform alignment is also often used in stealth designs. Planform alignment involves using a small number of surface orientations in the shape of the structure. For example, on the F-22A Raptor, the leading edges of the wing and the tail surfaces are set at the same angle. Careful inspection shows that many small structures, such as the air intake bypass doors and the air refueling aperture, also use the same angles. The effect of planform alignment is to return a radar signal in a very specific direction away from the radar emitter rather than returning a diffuse signal detectable at many angles.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 10:07 
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As a form of passive optical ranging, wondering if offset reads from two or more widely separated (wingtips, fin tip etc) IR sensors can be used instead of lasers? Even better would be two silent crafts widely spaced, but sharing the data of their sensors over the datalink to form a sort of really wide parallax rangefinder.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 12:44 
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F35 EO DAS configuration is ideal for AMCA. Since we have already cornering on F35 comparability, we should see AMCA as F35++, while it can be a raptoriski.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 17:24 
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Gagan wrote:
Shiv Aroor gets it drawn by a Graphics Artist.

The AMCA drawing is not accurate. The vertical stabilizer (rudders) and the Elevators are wrongly drawn.


That is a scan of the official pamphlet from the (ADA?) stall, not Shiv Aroor's creation.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 18:19 
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Rahul M wrote:
Venkarl wrote:

image doesn't appear. from some pvt channel ?


Sorry Sir..here it is

Image

looks like these folks developed it

Image

Clicky


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 18:59 
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^^^Not impressed with the rendering. Looks like they squeezed the a**


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 23:10 
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^^^i asked about that too here only....:-P
like no spacing between engines


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2011 23:22 
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Drishyaman wrote:
^^^Not impressed with the rendering. Looks like they squeezed the a**

I am unable to understand your statement. Are you disappointed with the CG artist for doing a sub par work or do you find the AMCA's design unimpressive?


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 00:03 
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Comparing the F22,F35 and PAK-FA with AMCA, the latter's horizontal tail fins looks puny (and IMHO a bit small in proportion). Moreover there is a gap between where the wings end and from where the tail fins start.

Newbie question: What is the optimum angle at which the canted vertical tail fins could be placed?


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 00:41 
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Avinandan wrote:
Comparing the F22,F35 and PAK-FA with AMCA, the latter's horizontal tail fins looks puny (and IMHO a bit small in proportion). Moreover there is a gap between where the wings end and from where the tail fins start.

Yes, the size of horizontal stabalizer is small. However, what effect will that have is unknown to me.
But regarding to the gap, even F-35 has it. But how is that determental for the aircraft?

Avinandan wrote:
Newbie question: What is the optimum angle at which the canted vertical tail fins could be placed?

PAK-FA and F-22 seem to have their vertical stabalizers canted at 65 degree while F-35 has them canted at 70 degree.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 00:55 
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I guess it will have all moving tails. Avinandan, PAKFA tail is also tiny.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 01:11 
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Rahul M wrote:
I guess it will have all moving tails. Avinandan, PAKFA tail is also tiny.

He is talking about horizontal stabalizers. Those of PAK-FA's are huge.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 01:15 
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The AMCA is still very much on the Drawing board. The final airframe might look very different from the model displayed at AI. They'll obviously change the size and shape of the control surfaces if necessary based on the wind-tunnel tests.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 01:16 
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hmm, it does look kinda small.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2011 01:20 
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nachiket wrote:
The AMCA is still very much on the Drawing board. The final airframe might look very different from the model displayed at AI. They'll obviously change the size and shape of the control surfaces if necessary based on the wind-tunnel tests.

Of course. Was it not reported (in Broadsword or Livefist?) that ADA is still in the process of analizing different permutations and all this will take another year or so before some basic idea of the final design will be decided?
Considering that AMCA is supposed to make its maiden flight after a decade, it only makes sense that the final design will be very different.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 17:05 
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Gurus, a couple of questions on the AMCA design:

1) It looks a lovely, perfectly optimised VLO design, with a minimum number of edges, wings and horizontal stabilisers in one line, etc. Not even the PAK-FA looks quite that smooth. Is this just a good example of learning from others' mistakes, or is this a very optimistic design that we're likely to have to change for, say, aero reasons? (For example, there were, IIRC, very good reasons why the PAK-FA had its horizontal stabs slightly below the line of the main wing and not in the same line - so have we overcome that, or have we just gone for a different aero setup?)
2) Why not a Russian-style wide-body design, like the PAK-FA? Wouldn't it simply make for larger internal weapons bays? If we take Gagan's rendition as being accurate, the AMCA would only have space for two WVR missiles, nothing more. Or would a wide-body design mean bad news for weight and stealth?
3) Can someone come up with a laundry list (which we can tick off as time goes by) of tech that we would need to develop to achieve the VLO characteristics we're looking for?

And on a related note, it's good to see the enthusiasm (hopefully in the armed forces as well) for a stealth jet - but what are we doing to develop tech to find/track/kill enemy stealth fighters? Do we have any such projects in the pipeline?


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 17:33 
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I guess that we'll be speculating for aeons here! The real "meat" of the moment will be when the prototype first takes to the air.To achieve that,the engine has to also be picked/developed! I think that the FGFA programme will have a huge bearing upon the AMCA,which will in effect be a smaller stealth FGFA,benefiting from the results achieved with the FGFA.As of now,there are only three nations with an FGFA in service/in the works.The US,Russia/India and China.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 22:22 
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Gaur wrote:
Drishyaman wrote:
^^^Not impressed with the rendering. Looks like they squeezed the a**

I am unable to understand your statement. Are you disappointed with the CG artist for doing a sub par work or do you find the AMCA's design unimpressive?

Gaur Ji,
I did not like the artist's work. Look at the back end of AMCA drawing, it looks like the artist constricted that. The Model at AeroIndia 2011 looked attractive.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 22:35 
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Image
Image


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 22:43 
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KrishG wrote:
Image



Joint Direct Attack Munitions - JDAMs?

Where did that come from?


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 23:19 
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All the CG deisgns of AMCA are very different from the model! :-o

Either the display model is wrong or the CGs are wrong. Aren't both the display and the 3d model not made by ADA folks themselves? If so, then god only knows if even one of them are accurate!

Personally, I feel that the display model is more accurate. This is because the nose has uncanny resembelence to PAKFA (which makes sense) but on the other hand the horizontal stabalizers on the display model look all wrong! :-?


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 23:24 
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Atleast the advertising poster seems to be up to scratch.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 23:41 
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^^
Which one?
Both of the above 3D models are different from the display model.

As for the one posted by Venkarl, I really do not think that the model was created digitally (3d or otherwise) by the artist. It looks like a PS job to me and a very bad one at that. I am pretty sure that the artist just used a AMCA display model pic, skewed it in PS to make his work easier and then applied a texture layer while using generous amount of F-22 pics for copy paste job.

Sure, I have hardly any right to criticise as I am not much good myself but you would think that the proffessionals would know better. More than that, one would hope that ADA would know better than to create this kind of confusion regarding their premiere proposal during the most prestegious Indian airshow when the whole world is watching!

Or may be I am underestimating the SDRE folks at ADA. Maybe all this confusion and seemingly PR incompetence is some form of chankian strategy too complex for our minds to fathom. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2011 23:54 
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The plane can change shape


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2011 06:30 
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I agree that it is a very elegant yet simple design. I think we, as a nation, has no issue about doing it given our opportunities for international cooperation. The final plan definitely would have more details, but I do expect it to be like a F35 kind of skin smoothness


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2011 08:45 
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handsomemwl wrote:
I agree that it is a very elegant yet simple design. I think we, as a nation, has no issue about doing it given our opportunities for international cooperation. The final plan definitely would have more details, but I do expect it to be like a F35 kind of skin smoothness


:mrgreen: i wont say anything .


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