My case against the F-35 for India

[shiv]

Let me make my case against acquiring the F-35.

The F-35 is supposed to become a great aircraft. It is being advertised as "the future of air warfare" or "the future is here". Its features have been advertised via every medium - news, TV, internet and radio. As a military aircraft jingo who saw reports of the the first appearance of fighters like the Jaguar, Tornado, F-111, F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, MiG 23, 25, 27, 29, Viggen, Gripen, Mirage 2000, A-10, Su-25, B1, B-2, F-117 and other aircraft I am unable to recall any aircraft that has been hyped so much as the F-35 even before it came into service. The

Let us just look at the aircraft that are now in service with air forces that have fought wars.
All the names in the above list are there. Add to those the MiG-21, Mirage III, F-5, A-4 Skyhawk, B-52 and Su7/Su-22.

What are the wars that have been fought using the above aircraft? Who were the warring sides? Where were the wars fought? This is where my memory is likely to fail me - but for convenience let me start from the post Vietnam era. Apart from 2-3 names in the above lists most were non existent in the Vietnam war. My list may be incomplete - mostly from memory.

1967: Arab Israeli conflict: MiG 21, Mirage III (I will leave out older types deliberately)
1971: India-Pakistan: MiG 21, Su-7, Maybe Mirage III? I can't recall
1973 Yom Kippur Arab-Israel war: MiG 21, Su-7, F-4, A-4 Mirage III
1975 Angola: MiG 23, Mirage III
1983 Falklands war: Harrier, Dassault Etendard, Mirage III, A-4 Skyhawk
1980-88 Iran-Iraq war: F-14, MiG 23, Mirage F1
1990 First Gulf war (Desert Storm): MiG 21, MiG 23, MiG 25, MiG 29, Su-22, F-117, F 111, F-15, F-16, F-18, Harrier, B-52, Jaguar, Tornado
1998-99: Kosovo All NATO aircraft including Tornado and US aircraft
1999 Kargil: MiG 21, 27, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, MiG 29
Post 2000: Afghanistan and Iraq: All the US aircrfat as well as F-22, B2, Rafale etc.

If you look at these wars you find that most of the wars that occurred between relatively evenly matched Air Forces involved the MiG 21, Mirage III and a few other models.

The wars that involved the latest and greatest aircraft had the following general characteristics:
1) The US was directly involved
2) The opponent was typically no match whatsoever in size or capability.

One simple lesson can be drawn about building an air force by looking at these wars. All you need to do is ask yourself a simple question:

Are you planning to fight a war with the USA?

There should be no confusion about this.

The answer to this question can be
1) Yes
2) Hopefully, no (or just No)

If you are planning to fight a war with the US then you are not going to win the air war. You may not lose the ground war to the US like Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan. This too is an important point to note

If you are NOT going to wage war with the USA then you get a different picture. You will face an adversary who will not have the might and variety and technology the US brings in, And you will be fighting with earlier generation weapons, many of which are either imported by your adversary or manufactured at home but nowhere as high tech as the US.

If you decide that you are not going to fight the USA you will still want to build an air force and you need to ask yourself where the F 35 will fit in. The USA is never going to fight a war with F-25 alone. The US is currently ready to use all sorts of support aircrfat - including E3s, Growlers, F-22s, B2s, B-52s and F/A 18s and f-16s depending on the particular battle to eb fought.

If you have an air force that is 33% F-35 onlee what the hell are you going to do with it? The F-35 is a very limited aircraft. Oh of course it is stealthy. No one can beat that - as long as you do not sling weapons underwing. When the F-35 is stealthy it carries about 2 bombs. OK maybe 4.

The F-35 has fantastic avionics, situational awareness and communications. But that technology is pretty useless if you do not have a a swarm of E-3s, growlers, satellites, F/A 18s and B-52s to communicate with and give support. The countries who are going to pay for and buy the F-35 are all allies of the US who will benefit from US support in a one sided war.

But India? What is India going to do? I do not believe for one minute that a fleet of F-35s and a few other aircraft like LCA and Su-30 will make the IAF effective. the F-35 will be a liability in terms of cost, technology and sanctions.

And all the hype. Why the hype about the F-35? After all the F-22 is far far superior to the F-35. The F-35 is only terribly expensive while the F-22 is prohibitively expensive. The USA is trying to make up its technology development costs spent on the F-22 by making and exporting the F-35. This business "Vysya" thinking, the Lakshmi generating buddhi that the US shows is not recognised by the Brahmin boffin-Shudra engineer buddhis of India.

By getting the F-35:
1) We will be subsidizing the US for its F-22s and its help to Pakistan
2) We will still not have a balanced high tech air force that can use the F-35 the way the US will use it or help its allies
3) Since we are not planning war with the US - our adversaries for the next 20-30 years will still remain a mix of 3-4 gen and small numbers of 5 gen, giving us time to develop things in house.

If I am told that Santa (Claus, not Singh) is forcing a few F-35s on us - I suggest we buy 10 F-35s like the 6 MiG 25s we bought and use them for a specific purpose at the start of a conflict for stealthy SEAD. No more.

[PratikDas]

In Before The Applause (IB4TA)

[ShauryaT]

If I am told that Santa (Claus, not Singh) is forcing a few F-35s on us - I suggest we buy 10 F-35s like the 6 MiG 25s we bought and use them for a specific purpose at the start of a conflict for stealthy SEAD. No more.

Even here, it is not "needed", if one really marries India's strategic policy doctrines and postures. We have land based missiles with the needed range to do the job. ALCM is already in the works.

[Sanku]

Are we buying that thing?

[bmallick]

What people tend to forget is that as far as the US is concerned F-35 is a pawn in the whole gamut of pieces called USAF. Of course its got a whole lot of techo wizardry, it fits there plan and scheme of things. What we should have should be driven by our needs not by what somebody else is making.

what we need is numbers to deploy enough on two fronts, which means affordability, I think that should be what drive our procurement and development.

[Lalmohan]

as shiv said, the money is better spent on 4 mad mongoose squadrons and 6 EW squadrons
our existing and planned bomb trucks can do the rest

[Tanaji]

Are we buying that thing?

Was there a RFP that? *runs away*

[nirav]

Shiv Saar,

When was there a case for the F35 anyway from the IAF ?
Well, apart from the "brain freeze" idea and blog post for a "case for the F 35" on his blog by Karnail-ji ...

[Virupaksha]

Who has offered F-35 to India?

When that offer comes around, lets talk about it (apart from post of Shukla). This is like me saying "I dont want to be the PM of India" of which in the foreseeable future, I have zero chance.

Sorry IB4TL

[shiv]

Who has offered F-35 to India?

When that offer comes around, lets talk about it (apart from post of Shukla). This is like me saying "I dont want to be the PM of India" of which in the foreseeable future, I have zero chance.

Yes but one must think of some things beforehand. For example if you are propositioned by a clap infested whore you might be tempted to have a quickie because you always imagined that a whore would never proposition you and never felt the need to think about it. Forewarned is forearmed. No?

[Gaur]

Shiv Saar,

If Stratpost is anything to go by, Defence Secretary had made it perfectly clear that India will not buy F-35. Even if we disregard that report, there has been no RFI issued to F-35. There were only some rumours about IN being interested in F-35.

So, why is there even a discussion (let alone a new thread) regarding this?

PS: If this is because of Ajai Shukla, does every piece by ddm really deserve a new thread?

[Lalmohan]

lets follow through the logic for a bit
who are we expecting to fight? And how?
easy answers - Dragon and Munna
worst case is Dragon
what sort of fight are we expecting? offensive/defensive?
or even offensive-defence - interdiction of the PLA supply chain and rear formation areas
let us assume that the forward CAS is better done with artillery - in the terrain where we expect to fight
to do offensive-defence, we need air-superiority or at least control
we will be up against... J10...Su30MKK... eventually a Chini F22 equivalent
if we can establish air control
what stops us from moving the right mud?
SAMs? AAA?
what do we need?
...

[Virupaksha]

Yes but one must think of some things beforehand. For example if you are propositioned by a clap infested whore you might be tempted to have a quickie because you always imagined that a whore would never proposition you and never felt the need to think about it. Forewarned is forearmed. No?

So I think I can expect
"My case against the F-22 for India", "My case against the J-10 for India", "My case against the JF-17 Bandar for India" and so on.

after all, Forewarned is forearmed.

I am sure that your aim of piscological studies on brf is going on well

[shiv]

If Stratpost is anything to go by, Defence Secretary had made it perfectly clear that India will not buy F-35. Even if we disregard that report, there has been no RFI issued to F-35. There were only some rumours about IN being interested in F-35.

So, why is there even a discussion (let alone a new thread) regarding this?

PS: If this is because of Ajai Shukla, does every piece by ddm really deserve a new thread?

No. There are a lot of people on this forum who believe that the F-35 is necessary. I would love to hear their views.

And "those rumors" about the Navy being interested - that is exactly how interest is generated. By motivated articles and buying off retired service officers to serve as sales people for companies. I recall seeing at least one photograph of an F-35 model in Indian colors. Need to search for that. Who would do that?

What I have written is a motivated article that says the opposite.

[Gaur]

If Stratpost is anything to go by, Defence Secretary had made it perfectly clear that India will not buy F-35. Even if we disregard that report, there has been no RFI issued to F-35. There were only some rumours about IN being interested in F-35.

So, why is there even a discussion (let alone a new thread) regarding this?

PS: If this is because of Ajai Shukla, does every piece by ddm really deserve a new thread?

No. There are a lot of people on this forum who believe that the F-35 is necessary. I would love to hear their views.

And "those rumors" about the Navy being interested - that is exactly how interest is generated. By motivated articles and buying off retired service officers to serve as sales people for companies. I recall seeing at least one photograph of an F-35 model in Indian colors. Need to search for that. Who would do that?

What I have written is a motivated article that says the opposite.

Well, there are many people who think everything from Blackjack to An-224 as necessary. Are we going to discuss all of them separately?

Anyway..I realize that I am not a moderator and have no right to say anything more regarding this matter. Instead, I think I should rather have nimbu pani while enjoying the heated cyclic arguments and hurled insults that this topic is surely going to inspire.

[shiv]

er on an impulse my Unkal Googal located this for me
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3461

Lockheed Martin Presents F-35 For Indian Air Force 126 MRCA Contract
Lockheed Martin Presents F-35 For Indian Air Force 126 MRCA Contract 2007-07-22 American military aviation giant - Lockheed Martin - has offered the state of the art, fifth generation, single-seat, single-engine, stealth-capable military strike fighter - the F-35 Lightening II Joint Strike Fighter.

News agencies reported that last week top executives from Lockheed Martin met with officials from the Ministry of Defence and conveyed to them that the United States had made the F-35 Lightening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mir ... ges-01989/

India has been invited to F-35 events. With potential US order numbers dropping, India might even be accepted into the program if they pushed for it. The F-35’s killer weakness was timing. Its advanced systems, established industrial partnership structure and program procurement policies could also make it nearly impossible to meet India’s industrial offset rules.

From 2010

13 Jan 2010: India Strategic reports that Orville Prins, VP Business development for Lockheed Martin’s vice president for business development has said that a presentation was made to the Indian Navy after a Request for Information (RFI) for newer generation of aircraft was received from the Indian Navy. It is believed that for the first time this has been made unconditionally, ie. no requirement to buy the F-16. It is rumoured (single source only, unreliable) that the F-16 and MiG may already be out of the MMRCA competition.

In a related development, the F-35B Lightning II fifth generation fighter carried out its first in-flight short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) operation at Naval Air Station Patuxent River on Thursday. The successful tests mark the beginning of a series of planned STOVL-mode flights that will include short takeoffs, hovers and vertical landings. "The joint F-35 industry and government team has already shown during extended ground tests that the STOVL propulsion system performs well, and thousands of hours of component testing have validated its durability. Now we are seeing early proof that the system operates in flight as our team predicted," said Dan Crowley, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and F-35 program general manager.

http://community.warplanes.com/2010/06/ ... -to-india/

“We have received the Request for Information (RFI) from the Navy seeking information about the F-35 aircraft, which are capable of taking off from aircraft carriers. We are going to offer our aircraft to them,” Lockheed Martin vice president Orville Prins said.

News agencies also reported that last week top executives from Lockheed Martin met with officials from the Ministry of Defense and conveyed to them that the United States had made the F-35 Lightning-II available for IAF’s 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told Press Trust of India after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India’s fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. The offer would come in handy for India as the country’s security experts have been struggling to find partners to develop futuristic 5th generation fighters.

“In the next few years a number of countries are joining the F-35 programme and Indian Air Force could also consider joining,” Weiss said. “We briefed top IAF officials about the new fighters.” With embedded antennas, aligned edges, internal weapons and fuel and special coatings and material, the F-35 fighter uses stealth to pick and choose engagements while reaming undetected by enemy defence systems.

Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

[SaiK]

The chaiwala nooj is that there is a higher chance IN might go for F35 especially the C variant.

[Sanku]

Are we buying that thing?

Was there a RFP that? *runs away*

Now you know why I love that RFP, its the only thing that stands between us and Boeing lifafa working overtime to tell us somethings through our fav reporter.

[Austin]

Are we buying that thing?

Atleast RFI has been sent from that I have read , as per the latest info it will be F-18 E/F (International ) ,F-35 ,Su-33 ,Rafale that will be in competition.

But there is no gurantee RFI will be converted to RFP its very early days yet.

[SwamyG]

Shiv: A well written post, but it is tough to go against the might military-business complex of USA. They have lots of money to grease the hands of people at all levels.

[BajKhedawal]

Due to lack of gyan, I am neither for nor against acquiring F-35’s, but a simple related question onlee.

Consensus on assorted threads suggests that there are high chances of India going to war with dragoon or munna in the near future, however a war with khan is outright ruled out asap! Even in the distant future. Why (not that I want one)

If MMS is going to glide our economy in next decade to where dragoon is now, than will we not have same to same conflicts that the dragoon has with Massa Crusader Khan todin. ( X 400%, as bigger they are, harder they fall, louder the protest second time around)

Is it not prudent then to plan ahead of time for such a formidable adversary?

[Rahul M]

this is a little premature at this moment. we will re-start when there is something more substantial than a weak rumour. personally, I hope I never have to hear about F-35 for India in the future.

continue in misc thread if needed.

thread locked.