Transport Aircraft for IAF

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Indranil
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

NRao wrote:
That's two refueling aircraft. The other reports that you cite all show a reduction in orders, because Russia is an economic problem. That does not mean that there is a problem with the aircraft. Why sisngle it out? It is going through testing just as it should!
Ah. Something I have posted for years now.

The PAK-FA too has the same (funding) issues.

Besides, funding is the worst type of problem to have. If in fact that is the issue, then it begs the question what are they testing. Perhaps that is why both the IAF and RuAF preferred to go with IL-76 upgrades?

Does not mean that IL did a bad job, just means that the IL-476, due to a lack of funding could eb an incomplete product at this point in time.

Anyways, I think I have made my point. However, to be clear, nothing against any one product/nation.
I am pretty sure an educated poster like yourself knows about funding issues with virtually every western aero-product today. Also, inflating potential future requirements is a marketing ploy used by every aircraft developer. No reason to single out Russia for this either.

Till the day India can build such heavy lifters, having alternatives is good for India. So wish Il-476 the very best!
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Cybaru »

Avarachan wrote:
The Brazilian KC-390 is largely made up of Western components, in a way that an Indo-Russian MTA would not be. Is that a threat to the West? Of course. I'm puzzled that anyone would think otherwise.

One of the West's primary geopolitical goals is to prevent the emergence of Russia and India as major industrial powers. Regarding Russia, its growing technological cooperation with Europe was one of the prime reasons the U.S. decided to launch the 2014 coup in Ukraine. As is well known, the U.S. pressured Europe into the anti-Russian sanctions: the U.S. felt threatened by the collaboration between Russia and Europe, and wanted to destroy it. Sorry for going off-topic, but I couldn't respond without mentioning all of this.

Not sure this makes any sense. If they allow another product (kc390) to appear in this category, it is shrinking their pie. It will cannibalize their offering, no matter what. There will be some sales of C130J lost due to this product.

Most of these companies source parts from all over the world. The benefit of any new project touches every company in the world. It isn't localized.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Thakur_B »

It seems that the engines will be upgraded for Il-78 only and the rest Il-76 will get avionics upgrade.
http://armingindia.com/How%20And%20Why% ... 0Deals.htm
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Both from Oct 17, 2015

IAF TO ACQUIRE 3 MORE C-17 GLOBEMASTERS

Boeing Sets Record on Defence Deals With India
The chairman also said that the company had stopped production of the heavy lift transport aircraft C-17 Globemaster.

The announcement comes at a time when the Indian government was in requirement of three more Globemaster planes. The Boeing C-17 Globemaster is a large military transport aircraft.

“We have only one C-17 with us.

Of course there are buying opportunities in the used market and the model will stay in the market for another 20 to 30 years,” the chairman said.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Karthik S »

Can't they reopen the supply line if we are prepared to pay for the overhead charges?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by brar_w »

Boeing wants to sell the facility as its a major real estate earner for them in the short term allowing them to invest that money in other programs. The suppliers would also prefer to move on and invest their resources in higher volume products.
Last edited by brar_w on 14 Nov 2015 03:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Lalmohan »

the other option is to buy 2nd hand NATO ones
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Lalmohan wrote:the other option is to buy 2nd hand NATO ones
Not an expert on this topic, but having been inside one of them, the birds the IAF has got are ages ahead of the "second hand" market. Unless Boeing is able to upgrade them I just do not see them as an option. Having said that the Prez of Boeing also stated that used planes could be an option. I assume he is willing to upgrade them.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Data point on IL-476:

Oct 29, 2015 :: Meeting with Ulyanovsk Region Governor Sergei Morozov
As far as development of the aircraft manufacturing cluster goes, Mr Morozov said that the Aerokompozit plant began full production cycle operations this year. The plant produces composite parts for use in aircraft manufacturing. Work is also underway on a project to produce the latest model Il-476 military transport plane. Three aircraft will be completed this year, seven aircraft are planned for next year, 11 in 2017, and 18 aircraft after that. Work has also begun on the new Il-78 inflight refuelling tanker plane, which will be put into production next year.
The IL-78 seems to be a typo? Should be IL-478?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:The IL-78 seems to be a typo? Should be IL-478?
Il-476 was a development/project name. The aircraft's official designation is still Il-76(MD-90A). I imagine the same applies to the PS-90A engined Il-78 which would just get a new suffix in the designation.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Makes sense. I missed that.

Opinion: After the C-17, A Tier Of Choices
Within the next few months, Boeing will deliver its last C-17 airlifter. This has been a remarkable program in many ways, but perhaps the most noteworthy is that the aircraft helped create a brand-new market: exported strategic transports.

Before the U.K. Royal Air Force (RAF) took delivery of four C-17s in 2001, no country outside the U.S. had ever purchased a Western military transport larger than the Shorts Belfast. A few countries, notably India and Libya, bought Soviet transports at “friendship” prices, but otherwise large airlifters were purely for the U.S. Air Force, or the USSR military. Everyone else used C-130s or smaller turboprops.

Yet two years after the RAF received its C-17s, seven NATO nations finally launched the Airbus A400M, after years of delays. While carrying less than half of the C-17’s payload, it does offer strategic range. Also, Japan decided to replace its fleet of aging C-1s—a jet built in the 1960s and less capable than a C-130—with the much larger Kawasaki C-2, now scheduled to enter service next year. Japan plans to buy 44 C-2s, which are around the size of the A400M and also offer strategic range.

Credit: U.S. Air Force

But most astonishingly, Boeing followed its four RAF C-17 sales with another 47 export aircraft. It succeeded by simply offering the C-17 at a competitive price and with a strong level of customer support—incentives that helped make strategic airlifter operations digestible for new users.

The effect of these developments on the military transport market has been profound. The non-U.S., non-Russian segment had historically been worth well under $1 billion in deliveries per year, with Lockheed Martin’s C-130J garnering the bulk of the orders. However, this year the international airlifter market will see deliveries above $6 billion, capping five solid years of record delivery numbers.

In September 2013, right after Boeing delivered the 223rd and final U.S. Air Force C-17, the company announced that the line would close in 2015, noting that another 22 would be built, including 13 on spec, with buyers to be found later. Since then, all but one of those 13 white tails have been purchased. Most recently, Qatar doubled its original aircraft order when it bought another four C-17s at this year’s Paris Air Show.

The C-17 line closure decision had to have been a tough call. On the one hand, the market’s surprising surge, reflected in the deliveries run-up over the last 10 years, offered hope that there would be more to come. Several possible strategic-lift customers have yet to make any kind of product commitment, most notably Saudi Arabia, which could have been good for 10-15 jets. There were even rumors of Algeria seriously eyeing the aircraft.

Also, there were inklings of more follow-on buys from the current user community. In August, the Indian air force said it would like at least three more C-17s; by this time only one of the available aircraft was left. And given U.S. Air Force and foreign-user requirements, there will not be any kind of market for secondhand C-17s. In all, it is virtually certain that Boeing could have sold at least a few more if it had kept the line open another six months or so.

But there were more factors weighted in favor of closing the line. By doing so, Boeing can exit its Long Beach facility, a valuable property. The final C-17 will incidentally be the last jet built in California, once a global center of aviation.

Another problem is the A400M itself. Not only is Airbus eager to sell it on export markets, but two home-market countries—Germany and Spain—plan to sell a combined 26 aircraft out of their own orders. These will likely be sold at a discount, making Boeing’s job that much harder.

Image

The most compelling reason for the U.S. manufacturer to shutter the line was the end of the U.S. market. At first, Boeing hoped to sell C-17s abroad as a bridge to more U.S. Air Force orders, perhaps for a proposed C-17B variant. But the current USAF plan is to simply coast on the fleet of 220 C-17s (plus 51 reengined C-5Ms) for the next 25-30 years. And while international sales of C-17s were remarkable, they could never have sustained the line alone for longer than another 1-3 years.

With the C-17’s death, the international military market will have tiers. For tactical transports, options include Airbus’s C-295 and Alenia’s C-27J. For theater transports, customers can choose between the C-130J and Embraer’s new KC-390, now scheduled to enter service in late 2018. But if anyone wants a strategic airlifter, there is just the A400M, unless Kawasaki decides to export the C-2.

And if a war or other contingency results in the U.S. Air Force needing more strategic lift, without the budget or time required to develop a new replacement jet, it may find itself in the strange position of queuing up to buy A400Ms.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

With all 27 IL-76 variants being upgraded apart from the new C-17s,the heavy transport section of the IAF seems relatively healthy.It is the med/light transport composition of the air fleet that need augmenting. The veteran AN-32s are being upgraded,about 100 of them,but we need another MTA for the long term.If the MTA JV with Russia can be successfully dusted off and sealed,the commonality that the design has with the larger IL-76/476 will make it cost-effective.Likewise the AVRO replacements with the C-295 has to be accelerated.Both MTA and the LTA could have many civilian orders too if such variants are also planned.That would increase numbers and bring down costs. With C-17 prod closed down,only "seconds" will be available .The IAF need to be realistic and more med. and light aircraft that can operate from the highest alt and smallest airfields in the Himalayas are the urgent need along with heavy/med helos.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by JTull »

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/11/ ... grade.html

Ukraine Completes India's An-32 Upgrade, Shoots Down 'Unreliability' Charge
Ukraine's Ukroboronpromom today announced that it had delivered the eighth and last batch of 5 repaired & upgraded An-32RE aircraft to the Indian Air Force, completing the $400 million deal.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by JTull »

Upgraded AN-32s delivered to India
A batch of five AN−32RE transport aircraft upgraded under a major Indian-Ukraine programme have been handed over to the Indian Ministry of Defence.

This is the eight batch of AN-32s to be upgraded to the AN−32RE model under the project, with a total of 40 aircraft now having undergone overhaul, modernisation and a service life extension of 15 years.

The prime contractor for the work was SpetsTechnoExport, the special exporter of state concern Ukroboronprom. The AN-32 original manufacturer, Antonov, was involved in the work as a sub-contractor.

A further 65 AN−32s will now be overhauled and re-equipped into the AN−32RE model at BRD−1 plant of Indian Air Force in Kanpur with participation of Ukrainian enterprises.

Arthur Heruvimov, the deputy director general for development of Ukroboronprom, said: ‘Today we transfer another 5 modernised aircrafts and successfully complete one of the most important export contract which total value is $400 million.

‘After Ukroboronpromom gained control over Ukrainian strategic aviation enterprises, we have received an assignment to increase the number of manufactured aircrafts and expand cooperation in this area. Now we are moving steadily in that direction, and today’s event proves it.’
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Russian Cabinet approves new joint MTA

Rather confusing. MS-21 is a civilian, single isle, craft. So, they seem to be saying that the MTA is taking too much time, so route their funds to teh MS-21. Makes sense. but what about teh MTA? And is the MS family Indo-Russian?
Nov 27, 2015.

The Russian government has proposed that funds allocated in the 2016 federal budget to the authorized capital of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), be directed to the development of Indian-Russian multirole transport aircraft (MTA) – the MS-21 aircraft family. Alexey Lavrov, Deputy Finance Minister, stated this while introducing an amendment at a meeting of the State Duma Budget and Taxes Committee.

The corresponding amendment to the draft federal budget for 2016 has been proposed by the government. Lavrov said the development of the MTA aircraft project is being delayed. “In this connection, we are proposing to authorize the capital contributions, being made from the state budget, be directed towards the building of the MS-21 aircraft,” he said.

Andrey Makarov, Chairman of the Budget Committee, proposed postponing the decision on this amendment until November 27.

“These funds are there all the time; they are not being used and are sitting in the deposit accounts of the company. Let us postpone this amendment until Friday,” he said. The parliamentarian asked to have an official briefing paper submitted by Friday, showing what kind of proceeds have been received in connection with this project, how are they being used, and how much additional funding is being proposed for the UAC from the federal budget.

The UAC has significant unused funds sitting in its bank accounts, received in the form of contributions to its share capital in 2009 and 2011 from the Ministry of Industry and Trade. These were made to finance Russia’s obligations in this project, involving the building of a Russian-Indian multirole transport aircraft. The UAC, with approval of the Ministry of Industry and Trade converted these unused funds into US dollars in 2011. The resulting income, from 2011, amounted to 539.1 million rubles and $24.3 million, or around 1,534 billion rubles, while the remaining unused contributions to share capital on October 30, 2015 (taking into account changes in the ruble/dollar exchange rate) now amounts to 17.857 billion rubles.

The Chamber of Accounts has noted that there was no information available on the completion of negotiations or on the conclusion of a contract to perform experimental design work on the development of the MTA. No decision has been made on a schedule to utilize the unused UAC funds. In this regard, the Chamber of Accounts has proposed that UAC distribute these unused funds as contributions to the charter capital of its subsidiaries, subject to a corresponding decision by the Russian government.

An intergovernmental agreement between Russia and India to jointly develop and build the MTA aircraft was signed in 2007. This was the first time that these two countries had concluded an agreement on equal-share joint financing of a new project in the aircraft industry. This aircraft is to be manufactured in both Russia and in India. According to its technical specifications, the MTA is classified as a medium military transport aircraft, which can carry a wide-variety of cargo weighing up to 20 tons at distances of over 2,000 kilometres, using paved and unpaved runways. The aircraft will also be able to operate from high-altitude airfields in any geographic and climatic conditions.

The MS-21 is a Russian airliner that was built to replace the Tu-154 and Tu-134. The MS-21 comes in three versions: MS-21-200 (150 seats), MS-21-300 (180 seats) and MS-21-400 (212 seats).

Earlier, Yury Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation reported that this aircraft would be rolled out in Irkutsk later this year, and is expected to take its first flight in mid-2016..
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by ShauryaT »

MTA was always to be a narrow body single aisle aircraft AFAIK.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

Transport and aisle?

Besides, MS-21 is a narrow body civilian single aisle plane.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Zynda »

So, the final death knell of MTA is official (?). KC-390 is much much further along the way than the mythical MTA. If we had joined with Embraer, perhaps we could have extracted a lot more pound of flesh from the Brazilians compared to Russians.

Another round of global tender for transport aircraft...some saga like MMRCA...ToT/Make in India type of agreement on manufacturing/assembly...indigenous development capability -> back to square one.

Perhaps, we should just go with more non-SF variant of C-130J planes...quite capable & robust. IAF seems to be happy with it so far. Won't be cheap...but spare parts & support issues shouldn't be a problem considering the well-oiled supply chain system massa has established.

It seems like FGFA is also stuck.

Indo-Russian Air Transport Project Falters

Posting in full.
NEW DELHI — The proposed Indo-Russian Multi Transport Aircraft (MTA) program, awaiting final agreement since 2007, is "almost shelved" said an Indian Defence Ministry source.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's talks on Dec. 25 with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow failed to pull the MTA out of the "stalemate," the source added.

The Russians are demanding a steep increase in cost for joint development of the transport aircraft and the Indian Air Force is not satisfied with some of the technical parameters of the MTA, especially the PD-14M turbofan engines, which the Russians propose to power the aircraft, the MoD source added.

"The transport aircraft [project] may be shelved because of three reasons. One is engine and secondly there are some internal conflicts in Russia between various stakeholders which is not allowing the desired progress. Thirdly, life of the AN-32 has been extended and the aircraft (upgraded)," said a senior Indian Air Force official who declined to be named.

A Russian diplomat here said, "We are awaiting finalization of the MTA," but refused to comment on the status of the project.

"The MTA program is as good as dead, and a global tendering will take place," said a senior Indian Air Force official.

Conceived in 2007, the MTA, in the 20-30 ton category, would have replaced the AN-32 military transport aircraft and was intended as a derivative of the Russian IL-214 aircraft for use by India and Russia. Though the first test flight of MTA was planned in 2013, a final agreement has not been reached despite several meetings between the two countries.

While a preliminary design of the MTA was worked out in 2013, India wants the transport to be able to operate from higher altitudes as opposed to the sea-level operations envisioned for the original IL-214. Even the detailed design phase has not been worked out.

In May 2012, already delayed by more than five years, India's state-owned military aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) signed a tripartite general contract with United Aircraft Corp.-Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA), the Russian partner, and their joint venture, the Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd. (MTAL) for joint development of the MTA.

In November 2012, an office was opened for MTA Ltd. in Bangalore. United Aircraft Corp. has a 25 equity share, Rosoboronexport of Russia has 25 percent while HAL has 50 percent.

Initially, it was planned to produce 100 aircraft for the Russian Air Force, 45 for the Indian Air Force and 60 for export.

Meanwhile, the MoD is re-evaluating the mix of transport aircraft needed.

No Agreement on FGFA

A long-awaited final agreement on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft [FGFA] also did not materialize during Modi's December visit to Moscow.

In 2010, India signed a preliminary agreement with Russia for joint development of FGFA, also called the T-50 by the Russians. However, the final agreement, which will help release nearly $6 billion as India's share in development of FGFA, has been delayed because India wants a greater production work share and also wants a specific single-seater for its Air Force, as opposed to the two-seater prototype the Russians are currently flying and hope to induct by 2016-2017.

"Failure to ink a long-pending final agreement on both the MTA and the FGFA indicates that the Indo-Russian defense ties are beginning to plateau out," said Nitin Mehta, a New Delhi-based defense analyst.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

France Considered Purchase of UK C-130s

By Pierre Tran

PARIS — An acquisition of secondhand Super Hercules C-130Js flown by the British Royal Air Force was one of the options considered by France, which seeks to buy four C-130 transport planes to boost support for troops deployed across sub-Saharan Africa, two defense sources said.

The Direction Générale de l'Armement procurement office "raised at the start of December" the option, which sparked some surprise, a French defense specialist said. Britain, which was launch customer for the Super Hercules, is looking to sell the first 10 acquired and hold on to the remaining 14 planes.

"The British C-130Js are an option for France," said US Army Col. John "Walt" Kennedy, chief of the Office of Defense Cooperation, here. The systems, including avionics, on those early models will need to be upgraded.

A DGA spokesman declined comment.

On Tuesday, US officers in Washington briefed DGA officials, who sought clarification on the offer of four C-130Js, announced last month by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency. The US Air Force has offered an accelerated delivery schedule.

A ministerial decision on the C-130 is expected to be taken in the next two weeks, following the US briefing.

The US technical briefing set out in detail the elements of the offer, which carried a maximum price of $650 million. That figure sparked initial French concern as it far exceeded the €330 million (US $360.9 million) earmarked for the planned C-130 acquisition.

That "top price" of $650 million covered clearance for future upgrades and was intended to speed up their delivery to France.

"As was set out in the [strategic defense and security review] last month, the UK will upgrade and extend the life of some of our C-130J Hercules aircraft, ensuring they can continue to support operations around the globe," said a British Ministry of Defence spokesman.

"Some of the aircraft will be surplus to this and retired from service over the next few years, and we are currently exploring options for their disposal."

The UK is expected to retire six of the RAF's short fuselage C-130J Mk5s on Dec. 31, 2016, and a further four on March 31, 2017. That schedule reflects the expected entry into service of the Airbus A400M transport with the RAF.

The RAF plans to retain the 14 long fuselage C-130J Mk4s, extending the operational life to 2030 from 2023.

The French Army is eager to receive the C-130, as troops are deployed at great distance in Sahel sub-Saharan Africa, and the transport planes would fly a full tactical mission, dropping troops and cargo by parachute, the French source said.

Two of the C-130s would be capable of inflight refueling for helicopters, which fly combat search and rescue and support special operations forces.

Airbus Defence & Space is developing a hose and drogue refueling kit for the C-235 and C-295 transports, while looking to resolve aerodynamic problems on the A400M for refueling helicopters.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

Russia 'freezes' India out of MTA project, to proceed alone as Il-214

Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

12 January 2016

Image
A model of the MTA showing the basic twin-engined design concept. Russia has decided to drop its Indian partner and to go it alone with the rest of the project, which it has designated the Il-214.


Russia looks set to continue development of the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) on its own after Ilyushin froze co-operation with India on the joint project, state media announced on 13 January.

With the preliminary design of the twin turbofan tactical airlifter now all but finalised, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will likely continue with the detailed design phase of the Il-214, as it is known in Russia, through to production without Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the TASS news agency quoted Ilyushin CEO Sergey Velmozhkin as saying.

"It has been frozen as a joint Russian-Indian project," he said.

While the report gave no particular reason for this development, it was reported in December 2015 that UAC and HAL were in disagreement over the type of powerplant to be fitted to the aircraft, with the former preferring the PD-14M - a modified version of the already in-service Aviadvigtel PS-90A-76 turbofan as fitted to the Il-76 'Candid' - and the latter wanting a completely clean-sheet engine with full authority digital engine control (FADEC).

"The PS-90 does not have FADEC but the necessity of such a system was not there in the technical specifications initially," the president of UAC, Yury Slyusar, told the Indian Economic Times at the time. "It was added later. The technical requirement [for performance] is fully satisfied with the PS-90 engine.

"So the official status is that we have finished the advanced preliminary design stage over a year ago [and] that has to be accepted by the Indian side. We hope they accept the design and move forward," he added.

The Il-214 is expected to have a payload of between 15 and 20 tonnes and a range of 2,500 to 2,700 km, which will put it in the same class of airlifter as the Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules (22 tonnes) and the Embraer KC-390 (23 tonnes).
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

So changing requirements halfway through the project does not work with established design houses. How surprising!
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by member_23370 »

Good should put an end to that nonsense. Why can't they license build C-130J's like the S-70 tata is planning?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

indranilroy wrote:So changing requirements halfway through the project does not work with established design houses. How surprising!
Nope.

It works only with design houses that are in the process of establishing.

But, good that the MTA is dead.

Now on to the FGFA, which seems comatose. Freeze dried to be revived in an after life.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Viv S »

indranilroy wrote:So changing requirements halfway through the project does not work with established design houses. How surprising!
The MTA is still at the 'preliminary design stage' which is to say it only exists on paper. Don't know how you can call that 'halfway through the project'.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Indranil »

Well, people don't allow changes half-way through the design phase! I do have a question. What would UAC do when time for midlife upgrade comes?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kailash »

If Indians pull the plug on FGFA, I wont be surprised if Russians reach out to China for some sort of joint production or transfer of intellectual property. I don't see any other nation capable or willing to fund the FGFA. They cant play hard ball with India anymore, even less so with China, now that J20 is already in tests.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by brar_w »

Kailash wrote:If Indians pull the plug on FGFA, I wont be surprised if Russians reach out to China for some sort of joint production or transfer of intellectual property. I don't see any other nation capable or willing to fund the FGFA. They cant play hard ball with India anymore, even less so with China, now that J20 is already in tests.
J-20 is now in Low-rate initial production. China would most likely be more interested in certain components of the PAKFA, perhaps the new engine that is expected next-decade. However, unless there is some serious issue with the J-20 I doubt they would be interested in acquiring the PAKFA since they can always hedge using the Su-35 which they recently have procured. Having said that, one cannot rule out PAKFA or a version of it for the Chinese even if the IAF sticks with its FGFA plans. It won't be the version IAF gets but nothing really stops Russia from selling a version of the PAKFA to China 10-15 years down the road. Russia will complete the PAKFA on their own if they have to. It may take longer, and they may defer certain capability but they'll definitely finish it since its critical to both their aerospace industry, and their air-force.
JTull
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by JTull »

What's the news with C-295? Are Tatas doing anything with it?
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Singha »

cheen might want from pakfa
fifth gen engine...a must for long supersonic cruise
distributed aperture aesa radar tech
new internal missiles pgm being worked on
new eodas type spherical defensive kit
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

We're going to spend according to the latest report in the Raffy td.$200M /aircraft! That's twice the old estimated cost of an FGFA.One can be sure that Russia will find other partners if we refuse the first offers of collaboration. The MTA cost est was $35-40M/aircraft.Let's see what the alternative options the IAF want will cost.A C-130J costs from approx $70M for the US and upto $100M for export orders.
But look,according to the def min's statement in parliament,6 C-130Js cost us... $ 962.4 million
That's $160M/C-130J and over $400M/C-17!

.http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ces-02224/
“Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) have been signed with the Government of the United States (USG) for the procurement of ten C-17 Globemaster aircraft as well as six C-130J aircraft along with associated equipment for the Indian Air Force (IAF) The estimated cost of the procurement of the C-17 aircraft is US $ 4.116 billion while the cost of the procurement of the C-130-J 30 aircraft is US $ 962.4 million… The induction of the C-130 J30 aircraft commenced in February 2011 and five aircraft have been inducted into the IAF so far. The sixth aircraft is planned for induction by end of December 2011.”
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by putnanja »

C-295 is pretty close to the proposed MTA, so there really was no need to go in for MTA. Just increase the C-295 orders if required.
Philip
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

I think it is closer to the AN-32 not the MTA. The MTA was designed as a smaller version of the IL-76 with a similar dia/sized fuselage and glass cockpit as on the new upgraded Il-476.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Vipul »

What about the availability rates of the Russian aircrafts (to fly) when compared to the others? $40 Million a pop is too high a price for Russian hangar queens.

India should finance (and buy) FGFA only if we get cutting edge technology for other 'strategic projects'.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by brar_w »

But look,according to the def min's statement in parliament,6 C-130Js cost us... $ 962.4 million
That's $160M/C-130J and over $400M/C-17!
Both the C130-J and the C17 came with a PBL contract that meant that the IAF pays an upfront annual support cost to the OEM and gets in return enough spares to cover a contract-defined mission capability rate. IIRC they generally tend to cover about 5 years worth of spares per contract. The data on the cost per aircraft, per year in previous GISP's have been shared with you in this thread (for the C17).

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/did ... hip-02756/

Additionally all three programs here (Rafale, C130, and C17) cover 30 - 50% Offset which adds to the cost (but is generally regarded as favorable since it provides valuable production work for local industry).
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Kakkaji »

JTull wrote:What's the news with C-295? Are Tatas doing anything with it?
The Tatas are ready, but the Cabinet Committee on Security has not approved the contract yet..No contract, no production.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Philip »

MIG-29Ks of the IN bought for just $30M a pop aren't hangar or deck queens by any yardstick. The PM has visited the VikramA a few times as well.The last joint tri-service commanders conference was held for the first time aboard (the VikA) an IN CV too.
With such low costs in comparison to Westrrn eqpt. it is a mystery why years worth of essential spares aren't contracted at the same time.Sandeep Unnithan just now on IT has ripped the lid of the NSG not having essential eqpt like night vision devices 7 years after the demand! As said before Babudom is India's greatest enemy not Pak or China.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by Vipul »

The availability rate of the much touted SU30 MKI is an abysmal 55%. Its too early to pass judgement on the 29K's. We will know the 'real situation' about its MTBO only later as happened with the SU30's.

If the Russians guarantee above 80% availability rates and spares supply then i am all for buying the MIG 35.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Post by NRao »

guarantee above 80% availability rates
Not a trivial matter. It could take years to implement.
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