The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
The most urgent need of the hour is not C-17s bit strike aircraft to replace the hundreds of MIG-21s to face imminent retirement (with no large series production of the LCA in sight) and the MMRCA in whatever shape or form.
Two totally different budgets. There should be no conflicts on that matter.
Existing Il-76s due for pensioning off can easily be replaced with new IL-476s
Who says?
at a fraction of the cost of a C-17.In earlier posts one showed that it was almost a ratio of 3 to1 .
Glad the person computing this did not pull a 5:1 ratio from his behind.
Anyhow, IAF has said more C-17s, for what that is worth.
Last edited by NRao on 26 Oct 2014 19:02, edited 3 times in total.
Philip wrote:The most urgent need of the hour is not C-17s bit strike aircraft to replace the hundreds of MIG-21s to face imminent retirement (with no large series production of the LCA in sight) and the MMRCA in whatever shape or form. Existing Il-76s due for pensioning off can easily be replaced with new IL-476s at a fraction of the cost of a C-17.In earlier posts one showed that it was almost a ratio of 3 to1 .
Your numbers are a bit dated Philip. C-17 is 4.98 time more expensive than Il-76 in terms of 1992 roubles. Il-476 will be 18 times cheaper than C-17. Il-476Mki, a version specifically designed for India will be cheaper to purchase and operate than a Dornier 228. It is also rumoured to operate on flatulence instead of aviation turbine fuel which gives it superior payloads in hot and high conditions.
Not sure if this was missed, Embraer is offering a new medium transport aircraft KC 390. Since we already have a partnership going, perhaps something to consider! A good looking bird at that.
Thakur_B wrote:Looks like Airbus has bitten the bullet and is going with Tata group to manufacture C295 for Avro replacement.
A poor article that is mixing up a lot of unrelated things, but if the team up finally happened, it't not Airbus that but Tata that has moved, since the issue was that the Indian privat industry (including Tata) were not hesitant about the potential benefit from this licence production and wanted a higher order. This was the problem for the former MoD and even now for the current, which was forced to extend the the deadline of the tender again.
VijayN wrote:Not sure if this was missed, Embraer is offering a new medium transport aircraft KC 390. Since we already have a partnership going, perhaps something to consider! A good looking bird at that.
A great bird, but it's the direct competition to our MTA project with Russia. The Avro replacement is a class lower and aimed mainly on prop engined transport aircrafts.
Algeria is considering the C-17, the Airbus A400M and the upgraded Ilyushin Il-76MD90 for a possible order of between four and six aircraft.
. . .
Boeing, however, is shutting down C-17 production in June 2015, leaving only 10 unsold “white tails” available
Once those last 10 are gone, that's it.
From another forum there has been interest from Australia for up to 4 more, from Saudia Arabia for up to 4, and from Sweden and Norway for a couple.
If the Amrikis are willing to sell may Tata or someone should buy the whole C-17 production line and ship it to India
* 39 on order by Russian AF
* A-100 to be based on the IL-476 and operational in 2017. Could not find a number that I could attach to an "order", but they have around 35 A-50s or so, so assuming they are all replaced, that is another 35
* Reports that the Dept of Interior may buy a few, how many, do not know, but let us assume another 10
So, a grand total of 84 planes.
Have not found any commercial interest in this plane (but I could be wrong on that).
With a proposed production run of 10-17 (per open source) (10 being more than likely as we post), that would be around a 9 years production run.
China will not purchase any.
I very much doubt India will too, but assuming she does, that would be around 10. So, if the production run were to be increased to 17, India could potentially get the 10 in two years after India signs.
Given that the two CASs have indicated "more C-17s", ................................
It would be an incredibly stupid idea for who gets into such a venture. You can't take a largely inexperienced firm and have it start hammering out C-17 like aircraft. If they work with Boeing, they would hemorrhage a lot of money to Boeing for consultancy and technical assistance. No private company will be dumb enough to take a risk, especially on an aircraft that has largely met its international demand. A few orders and onwards and upwards for Boeing. They'll lock horns for the two other programs for future airlift where they'll be a natural front runner.
plus 100s of component suppliers of C17 would still be in usa and have to be paid for. its a non starter. the only credible way is try a large airlifter yourself as Cheen is trying with the Y20 or whatever is called, with just the engines being imported and maybe a few COTS avionics.
btw the east european cargo haulers and various such bush ops in africa probably still use some amt of IL76. if they could cobble together some funding thats another 30-50 market for the IL-476 potentially. south america could see some action though Embraer might market a commercial leancore variant of its new mil airlifter and sweeten the deal in that region.
I am more interested to see IAF lease some A320 and A330 for operations between paved runways and move strongly into palletized cargo loads. this will relieve the constant load on our limited mil airlifters. for instance A330 has already demoed ops to Leh. most supplies between delhi/chandigarh to Leh except stuff like IFV/arty could be moved by a A330 than a C17/Il76.
Good ol "MTA" pops up as a bogey-plane anytime furrin transports are considered. What will it do that the C-130s cannot? How many will Russia buy? How many countries will line up to buy it? DOA.
Avro is a passenger plane used for liaison, training and modified light cargo so the replacement should also be a passenger plane with cargo potential. If we insist on prop just because Avro is prop then C295 is it. Problem is C295 also can replace the An32s and this is the only reason I can think of that explains Tata-Airbus jumping into the space. It is not commercially attractive to build a plant for 56 aircraft but throw the 100-odd Antonov replacements and we have a very good situation. Maybe something gave them the idea that the new GoI is made up of practical folks who will see the obvious. Further, the C295 can also be used as a commercial passenger aircraft for India's huge civil feeder liner needs, although a jet would be cheaper to run.
Philip wrote:The most urgent need of the hour is not C-17s bit strike aircraft to replace the hundreds of MIG-21s to face imminent retirement (with no large series production of the LCA in sight) and the MMRCA in whatever shape or form. Existing Il-76s due for pensioning off can easily be replaced with new IL-476s at a fraction of the cost of a C-17.In earlier posts one showed that it was almost a ratio of 3 to1 .
What earlier post? The 2012 Russian order for IL-476s was quoted at a flyaway cost of $115 million each, but like most internal figures likely omitted plenty of unpriced equipment (same reason why the Su-30SM is 'officially' tagged at $35M each).
- The flyaway cost for a export customer is likely to be closer to $150 million compared to $250 million for the C-17. That's a 66% higher cost for the C-17.
- The C-17 however has 85% greater cargo volume. Better reliability. Better turnaround time. Better operational availability. Better short field performance. Better logistics chain.
btw in recent trip to delhi I noticed there are now 2 parking areas in palam domestic side, on either side of the LCC terminal.
the old one near dhaula kuan had two aged looking IL76 parked.
the other one near army cantonment side had 2 C17 and 1 C130J parked. not sure why they were there as I believe C17 are based off Hindon and C130J in Agra?
We need to give up the ghost and settle for the C 130. We already have 5 and will have more, in the near future. Let us have a common logistic chain. All the more so, as LM is open to the idea of shifting the line to India.
The MTA, like many other projects with the Russians, has two components: First to get experience designing a plane like this and second to provide a transporter for the IAF (and anyone else). The prior has plenty of value, enough to bite the bullet for the latter. Besides that when it comes to the MTA India will have a greater number on order (than Russia).
Extra C-130s (Not Js) will fulfill the IAF needs, not the design needs.
The "problem" with the MTA, IIRC, is third party orders. I think they had penciled in some third party orders and not sure if they are going to take place.
Aye, The 295 will make a good Coast Guard SAR plane as well as a good AEW plane. Not sure if it will have enough power to power the electronics or if an APU will be needed slung underside on the wings, reducing over all range. It has much more range then the EMB145/99 type albeit a little slower. They need a longer legged version for India. That Indian ocean is massive. http://www.slideshare.net/robbinlaird/a ... lideshow=1
The C27J is pretty interesting and slightly larger. Perhaps it will join the race as well. It has some interesting versions out there (Jedi).
NRao wrote:...Besides that when it comes to the MTA India will have a greater number on order (than Russia).
...
It's the other way round. Russia has a requirement for 100 planes while the IAF has a requirement for 45 planes.
We must learn from Brahmos and 5th gen fighter efforts here. Russians will project large requirements but progress will be made only if there's a real need. Like Brahmos, their MTA requirement is a paper requirement and unlikely to materialise once India commits money and it's future to it. We must only concern ourselves with what are our requirements and take appropriate steps to acquire technology and/or setup assembly. That's the only way to avoid future arm twisting.
Airbus press release. C295 offered for the Avro Replacement programme:
Airbus Defence and Space and Tata Advanced Systems bid for the Indian Air Force’s Avro replacement programme
28/10/2014
Companies will offer Airbus C295 under new teaming arrangement.
Airbus Defence and Space and Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) have submitted a joint bid to replace the Indian Air Force´s fleet of Avro aircraft with the market-leading Airbus C295 medium transport.
The teaming follows a detailed industrial assessment and stringent evaluation of the Indian private aerospace sector by Airbus Defence and Space, which concluded with the selection of Tata Advanced Systems as the Indian Production Agency (IPA) exclusive partner for this prestigious programme.
A total of 56 Avro aircraft are to be replaced. In the event of contract award, Airbus Defence and Space will supply the first 16 aircraft in ‘fly-away’ condition from its own final assembly line. The subsequent 40 aircraft will be manufactured and assembled by Tata Advanced Systems in India. This will include undertaking structural assembly, final aircraft assembly, systems integration and testing, and management of the indigenous supply chain.
Airbus Defence and Space Executive Vice President Military Aircraft, Domingo Ureña Raso, said: “We firmly believe that, in the C295, we have clearly the best aircraft to replace the IAF Avro fleet and, in Tata Advanced Systems, we have secured the cream of the Indian private aerospace sector as our partner for this project.
“The C295 is a superbly reliable and tough aircraft with outstanding economics which is proven in the most difficult operating conditions all over the world. It has already been ordered by 19 countries, many of which have placed repeat orders. And just this year it has dominated the market with orders for no fewer than 20 aircraft from five countries.”
Mr. S. Ramadorai, Chairman,Tata Advanced Systems, said, “We are extremely pleased to announce our partnership with Airbus Defence and Space for the Avro replacement programme for the Indian Air Force. It is a landmark for the development of aircraft manufacturing capability in India, now that Tata Advanced Systems is poised to take this step toward building entire aircraft in India. The selection of Tata Advanced Systems by Airbus demonstrates the confidence that has been built in our ability to undertake this complex programme."
New Delhi: (Reuters) - European plane manufacturer Airbus' Defence and Space unit and Tata Advanced Systems have submitted a joint bid to replace the Indian Air Force's fleet of 56 Avro aircraft with Airbus' C295 transport planes, Airbus said in a statement on Tuesday. Under the bid, Airbus Defence and Space would supply the first 16 planes while the subsequent 40 would be manufactured and assembled by Tata Advanced Systems in India.
Since this will take some time. I think EADS really needs to see if they can re-engine the CN295 with a higher uprated engine to give it better hot and high performance. They keep losing everywhere due to that reason.
GoI will be subsidizing the 40 aircraft being made in India in order to develop a private aircraft-making capability. This will include overheads like land and infrastructure which will remain in place after the 40 are delivered. GoI will also have significant skin in the game in terms of "investment" and we can rest assured that investment will be milked to the full extent, especially with a gujju in charge. No chance for MTA to see the light of day. We can expect IAF to consolidate around C17, C130, Avro replacement, Do227, Embraer 135-145 for the foreseeable future.
Cybaru wrote:Since this will take some time. I think EADS really needs to see if they can re-engine the CN295 with a higher uprated engine to give it better hot and high performance. They keep losing everywhere due to that reason.
Not the CN-295 Cybaru, it's the C-295. There was a CN-235 which is a smaller transport manufactured by IPTN of Indonesia in collaboration with CASA of Spain. The C-295 was a stretched version of the CN-235.
The C295 payload is twice that of the avro and pretty close to the An32. We might see way more than 56 orders over the next decade if this comes through
For me, the winner of the Avro-replacement competition just got decided. Now, TASL-EADS should get to work with ITPN to continue the work on the N-250 program. That program needs money, and we want to gain time. No better way to get to an efficient civilian version fast. It will sell like hot cakes, unlike the turbofan version of our RTA, which unfortunately will be entering a very crowded field dominated by established major players with very deep pockets.
indranilroy wrote:For me, the winner of the Avro-replacement competition just got decided.
Very likely but I have some reservations since I am 95% convinced that it will be the winner of the An-32 replacement also. With the Arunachal road-building entering feverish pitch, the need for temporary ALGs has exploded as they will be the only way to send men, materials and machines up there. I'm not sure if C-295s will be able to do it even though they are billed as STOL and have operated in Afghanistan, Iraq and even Amazon jungle. It would be great if they do.
The C-295W version on offer to India is exactly designed for this. Stronger engines with better lift-to-drag by virtue of the new winglets should give it the necessary oomph for the hot and high conditions.
As much as I like this development, I hope Alenia get into a similar agreement with an Indian co. The C-27J has a higher payload, slightly better range and a 100km/h higher cruising speed. Plus, it uses the same engines as the IAF's C-130s and the same cockpit systems as well.
The engines are same, no difference I think. They just allow them to run at higher ratings, thus reducing life. The winglets add about 50-100 km range difference only.
The C27J would be nicer, but certainly more expensive to operate and maintain. Won't even need future extra order of Herc's if we did do that. It would be able to manage almost everything from Insertions to transporting Jeeps/howitzers etc and replace Avro/AN-32/Emb (AEW) and allow for a CG MPA on the same platform. It's in a very sweet spot actually.
European consortium Airbus Defence and Space has made a joint bid with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) for a 56 medium transport aircraft order of the Indian Air Force (IAF) valued at Rs.20,000 crore ($3 billion).
"We have submitted a joint bid October 22 for supplying Airbus C295 medium transports to the IAF, which plans to replace its fleet of Avro aircraft," an Airbus Defence official told IANS in an e-mail from France.
The euro 14 billion ($17.8-billion) Airbus Defence has tied up with Tata Sons' subsidiary (TASL) as its Indian production partner for the order.
The bid is for 56 twin-turboprop tactical military aircraft, including 16 in fly-away condition from the Airbus Defence final assembly line and the remaining 40 to be built and assembled by TASL in Hyderabad.
"Under the terms of the request for proposal (RFP), the first 16 aircraft, assembled at Seville in Spain, are to be delivered in 24-48 moths after signing the contract. The remaining 40 aircraft, to be assembled in India, are to be delivered in 60-120 months thereafter," Airbus official Kieran Daly said.
As part of the technology tie-up, TASL will undertake structural assembly, final aircraft assembly, systems integration and testing and management of the indigenous supply chain.
"We believe that C295 is the best aircraft to replace the IAF's Avro fleet. In Tata Advanced Systems, we have the cream of the Indian private aerospace sector as our partner for this project," Airbus Defence and Space vice-president Domingo Urena Raso said in a statement.
The aircraft is in the six-eight tonne class, with a cruise speed of 800km per hour and a range of 2,500-2,800km.
The IAF had floated the tender after the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) July 19 cleared the proposal for manufacturing the 56 transport aircraft in the private sector, excluding the city-based state-run defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which built the Avro aircraft.
(The HAL-built vintage Hawker Siddeley 748M Avros, were inducted into the IAF transport fleet during the 1960s to ferry its personnel and heavy equipment. The fleet is also used for rescue and relief missions.)
"Our selection by Airbus Defence as its Indian partner for the IAF's Avro replacement programme demonstrates the confidence that has been built in our ability to undertake this complex project," TASL chairman S. Ramadorai said in the statement.
The IAF proposal was held up during the previous UPA government after its heavy industries minister, Praful Patel, wrote to the defence ministry against keeping HAL from the project.
The defence ministry referred Patel's objection to the law ministry, which favoured the proposal for capacity-building in the domestic aerospace sector.
After DAC cleared the proposal, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said in New Delhi that the significant project would lead to capacity-building in the private sector.
Asked if the IAF bid has an offset clause, Daly said Airbus Defence would support TASL in creating a modern and efficient aircraft final assembly line and in initiating the production of a market-leader military transport.
"Our partner (TASL) will also undertake the structural assembly and manage the supply chain in India, whose execution will rely on a broad Indian industrial infrastructure," Daly added.
TASL is also a premier partner for global OEMs (original equipment manufacturers), including Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, Cobham Mission Equipment, RUAG Aviation and the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for providing integrated solutions in the aerospace, defence and homeland security spheres.
"Under the terms of the request for proposal (RFP), the first 16 aircraft, assembled at Seville in Spain, are to be delivered in 24-48 moths after signing the contract. The remaining 40 aircraft, to be assembled in India, are to be delivered in 60-120 months thereafter," Airbus official Kieran Daly said.
IF things go well, then all will be delivered in 2+5 years. Else 4+10 years?
That is too much of a lead. Indian Services should not take that hit.
then C295 is it. Problem is C295 also can replace the An32s and this is the only reason I can think of that explains Tata-Airbus jumping into the space. It is not commercially attractive to build a plant for 56 aircraft but throw the 100-odd Antonov replacements and we have a very good situation. Maybe something gave them the idea that the new GoI is made up of practical folks who will see the obvious. Further, the C295 can also be used as a commercial passenger aircraft for India's huge civil feeder liner needs, although a jet would be cheaper to run.